Ethics

Thought so. I am right. This is proof in itself. Your ideology and beliefs are beyond inconsistent and shaky. If you whimsically accept and reject whatever you like because you have doubt about it, your whole religion is just a joke. Instead of telling others what you think is right or wrong work on the basis of your understandings, first understand if you even follow what you call Islam or if you are a follower of the 12 Imams and Ahlulbayt. You do realize Ziyarat are literally from the words and commands of our Imams right? It is how we are suppose to address them. Besides you have yet to prove how any of these dua go against the quran or Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Your only argument is "oh because there is no literal evidence then you cannot say it." Such an argument is proven false so easily. This whole thread is filled with hadith, quran, and maraja rulings and you have yet to prove any of it wrong. I think you are stretching too far and being very very ignorant. If people do such things as that or using the hand symbol that has quranic verses on it. They are not worshiping it and I know you know this. You are just saying lies now. I have never seen someone putting apples in a cradle so Ali Asghar provides for them babies and if they do which there is no ruling against that. It is obviously for the sake of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to answer their prayers by the grace of Ali Asghar just like people slaughter sheep on special occasions. I will keep saying it again and again and again. In Shia Islam, we believe that it is ONLY by the will of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). If you believe that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has given the ability to our prophets or imams to be able to accept your calls for help then it is okay to do. Many people during the prophets times went to the prophet directly for help such as asking to be cured. Did the prophet reject them? No. Did the prophet say astagfirullah go call on Allah not me? No. When Prophet Yousuf used his scarf to cure his fathers blindness was that shirk or bidah? No. Why then? BECAUSE ALLAH (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) WILL IS BEHIND IT. Otherwise Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would have never used or given such examples. Last final prayer and I will never respond again.

It does not matter what hadith or quranic verse you bring, they just ignore it.

?????????????? Ziyarat al-Jamiah by the 10th Imam وَمُقَدِّمُكُمْ أَمَامَ طَلِبَتِي I provide you as my means for seeking fulfillment of my desires, وَحَوَائِجِي وَإِرَادَتِي needs, and wishes, فِي كُلِّ أَحْوَالِي وَأُمُورِي in all of my manners and affairs, مُؤْمِنٌ بِسِرِّكُمْ وَعَلاَنِيَتِكُمْ I believe in your invisibility, visibility, وَشَاهِدِكُمْ وَغَائِبِكُمْ presence, absence You do not make any sense. If the point is you cannot do something that the Imams or Prophets never told us to do, THEN DONT DO ANYTHING THEY NEVER DID INCLUDING USING A PHONE. You cannot pick and choose that is faulty in your logic. If you claim this only applies to duas and supplications then you are wrong because like I told you before the literal definition of supplication has no explicit method or verses. Did every prophet and imam use 1 dua? Was each dua they made the same? in the same location? In the same stance? in the same phrases? in the same language? Heck there was no daily prayers even until Prophet Muhammad. So Obviously not. You are also being quite ignorant and foolish no one asks from objects.

Do not be deceived my brothers and sisters. Their ideology similar to wahabi and salafis is very inconsistent and absurd. The religion of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is tied down to every fiber of your existence. As muslims we believe everything we do is for the will of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) all the way down to the blinking of our eyes. If you do not believe in this, then the tawheed you believe in is shaky. Therefore, why do these people only apply this incoherent belief at tawassul or "Ya Ali help me" ? When every single thought and action is for the will of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and that in itself is not exclusive to our prophets and imams, then you realize their logic is faulty. For they must stop doing everything and anything the prophet did not do. These types of Shia should throw away all the calls of ziaraat where we directly call upon, seek help and blessings, and talk with our prophets and imams. They themselves just like the wahabi and salafi do not uphold what they believe, but they will try and accuse you of shirk or remove the barakah of using the utmost wasilah that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Himself has commanded in the holy quran. O you who believe! Be careful of your duty to Allah and seek means of nearness to Him and strive hard in His way that you may be successful (5:35)

Salam brother I think you may have understood the meaning of this statement. This is in reference to Ghulu and in this statement it is saying that if you believe human beings specifically prophets and imams do not die, which obviously everything that is created comes to an end and for humans that is death. Of course our prophets and imams are alive, yes they died in this world, but their souls are not like that of normal humans which pass to barzakh awaiting judgement day, nay Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) keeps them alive as He says in the quran. Belief in death is critical in Tawheed and the purpose of God and existence. For example you have people that believe in reincarnation and this would fall under this rule.

I edited my post but it made another post. Please delete this.

Ziyarat al-Jamiah which is the most authentic and comprehensive Ziyarat that we have, was taught to us by the 10th Imam, 'Ali ibn Muhammad al-Naqi (A) in response to a question that someone has posed to him. This Imam (A) was asked "How should the followers address you or perform your Ziyarat?" In response, this comprehensive prayer was taught to the followers. مُسْتَجِيرٌ بِكُمْ mustajirun bikum I take shelter in you, زَائِرٌ لَكُمْ za'irun lakum I make visits to you لاَئِذٌ عَائِذٌ بِقُبُورِكُمْ la'idhun `a'idhun biquburikum I resort to and seek protection in your graves, مُسْتَشْفِعٌ إِلَىٰ ٱللَّهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ بِكُمْ mustashfi`un ila allahi `azza wa jalla bikum I seek your intercession for me with Allah the Almighty and All-majestic, وَمُتَقَرِّبٌ بِكُمْ إِلَيْهِ wa mutaqarribun bikum ilayhi I seek nearness to Him in your names, وَمُقَدِّمُكُمْ أَمَامَ طَلِبَتِي wa muqaddimukum amama talibati I provide you as my means for seeking fulfillment of my desires, وَحَوَائِجِي وَإِرَادَتِي wa hawa'iji wa iradati needs, and wishes, فِي كُلِّ أَحْوَالِي وَأُمُورِي fi kulli ahwali wa umuri in all of my manners and affairs, مُؤْمِنٌ بِسِرِّكُمْ وَعَلاَنِيَتِكُمْ mu'minun bisirrikum wa `alaniyatikum I believe in your invisibility, visibility, وَشَاهِدِكُمْ وَغَائِبِكُمْ wa shahidikum wa gha'ibikum presence, absence, وَأَوَّلِكُمْ وَآخِرِكُمْ wa awwalikum wa akhirikum first, and last of you; وَمُفَوِّضٌ فِي ذٰلِكَ كُلِّهِ إِلَيْكُمْ wa mufawwidun fi dhalika kullihi ilaykum and I confide all that to you وَمُسَلِّمٌ فِيهِ مَعَكُمْ wa musallimun fihi ma`akum and submit to all of it with you. وَقَلْبِي لَكُمْ مُسَلِّمٌ wa qalbi lakum musallimun My heart is subservient to you, Astagfirulllah what is this innovation the Imam is making us do?! Are we praying to him? Worshiping him? He is dead no? Why would the Imam tell us to call on him when he is dead?! Does he not know?

“...Had they, when they had wronged themselves, come to you and asked Allah's forgiveness and the Apostle had asked forgiveness for them, they would certainly have found Allah Most-Propitious, Most-Merciful.” (4: 64). Wait what? Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is telling people to seek forgiveness from the prophet even though they wronged themselves. Does God not know His own religion? Why isnt God telling them to just ask God directly? ? What is this innovation?! Why would Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) do such a thing?! Why would Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) set the condition of seeking forgiveness of their sins through the prophet. What is this innovation astagfirullah.

It is not an invention. Asking for help is not a new invention. It is simply asking help from the ones who are most closest to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). The purpose is simple as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says, use His representatives to get closer to Him. The aimmah never told you to speak english why are you speaking english? The aimmah never told you that you can dua in english, so why do you dua in english? The aimmah never told you you could use a pc so why are you using a pc? The aimmah never said you could use a cellphone so why are you using a cellphone? Why invent this behavior? What is the purpose, what can you confidently assert it is adding, again, considering that there’s not really any good indication the aimmah ever told anyone to do it this way?

This idea that there is no evidence of something therefore it is not allowed is ABSOLUTELY irrational for many things are not in Shia Islam nor have the imams or prophets done it, in todays time and we still do it. You wanna go down that slippery slope you better be consistent. I have already proved many many points of evidence through quran hadith logic and maraja and people do not even respond to that so you telling me im talking past points is blatantly ignorant but then again you are biased so it makes sense. Your side has no basis to stand on, full of faulty logic and false accusations.

Question: Is it right to say ya Ali madad? Answer: There is no objection in it. https://www.sistani.org/english/qa/01253/

This conversation is not going anywhere. You guys are either ignoring my points, deflecting, or just using fallacies. Clearly some of you literally do not even know the words you are using even means. This is the cue for me to stop wasting my time as it is the 9999999999999 thread on this. 1. Tawassul nor "ya Ali madad (help me)" is not shirk nor is it bidah nor is it ghulu. You have yet to prove otherwise. Also please learn the definition of those words before you throw it around. 2. Duas are not one way, you can dua/pray any way you want and say however way you want it. That is not bida. The literal definition of dua and supplication is not exclusive to a specific word or phrase. Do not be illogical. 3. Prophets and Imams are alive. “Reckon not those who are slain in the way of Allah, to be dead nay! They are alive and are being sustained by their Lord.” (3:169) 3. Humans, Objects(Medicine and such forth), and everything under the creation of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is by the WILL of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). It is only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that decides and gives power to all his creations. So no again, we do not worship or put partners to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and we only worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 4. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) throughout the holy quran and hadith has time and time again brought forth examples of the importance of wasilah and intermediaries to get closer to Allah or to help people through using them.

New definition? That isnt even a definition. That is just one of many sermons. What I find funny in this sermon where Imam Ali (عليه السلام) talks about the best means to Allah, he keeps mentioning Prophet Muhammad (عليه السلام). "The best means by which seekers of nearness to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, seek nearness, is the belief in Him and His Prophet". Imagine that...why do we need to believe in Prophet Muhammad in order to seek nearness to Allah? Why not Allah only?

No one is rejecting Imam Ali's definition to claim otherwise is just ignorant. It is not an either or situation. Both fall under the same branch of dua. Its linguistics and intention.You using a computer when Imam Ali did not have such an innovation, how does that align with being a follower of Imam Ali? Stop using your hands to type, you should only ask Allah for help. If you are a follower of Imam Ali you should not be doing anything he did not do in his time, and that includes using the internet. Now tell me which characteristic have I broken in terms of my rational in the way I dua. Stop throwing around that word when it does not even apply to the notion of tawassul Wait a minute. I think you need to understand what Dua, Supplications, and Prayer means. All of your misunderstandings lie here. How do people not know what these terms mean as a believer of God? Getting help from someone, calling/asking someone to help you all fall under dua, invocation, and supplication. When you ask someone to help you, you are praying that they help you. When you take an exam, you are praying that you did a good job and praying that the teacher grades it earnestly. The reason why it is not shirk is because our understanding and intention is that everything is done so by the will of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and it is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who has given us the means to use our own existence and HIS creations. So when someone helps you they accepted your prayer, your request, your call. *Salat is supplication AND worship directly to Allah. Which is why Salat is a form of supplicating, and which is also a prayer. Salat is not a dua. But dua/prayer is part of salat. This is important to understand because you are assuming saying or invoking an imam or prophet for help is equal to worship which is far from the truth. When you say Ya Ali madat, you are not worshiping him, nor are you doing salat to him. You are simply invoking, asking, begging, requesting that Ali (عليه السلام) helps you BY THE WILL of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Again same thing applies when you are asking a doctor to help you. Ultimately, it is a given that it is only because of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will that the doctor can help you. But some of you fail to understand this and make up reasons in your head ignorantly and commit sins by falsely accusing people of shirk. What? That was a literal event. The prophet told them to take his shirt and use it as a means to cure the blindness of his father ie a miracle. The point was this was a prophet of Allah. Why is Allah commanding a prophet to use an object to cure his fathers blindness? Why is it not the case that Allah says to tell his father to call upon Allah directly? Couldnt have Allah just cured his fathers blindness without Yusuf or using Yusufs scarf? It is because Allah is showing the people that Yusuf is a means to Allah and it is by Allah will that Yusuf is capable of doing something only Allah is capable of.

Let us ignore the fact that dead people can hear and see us let alone imams and prophets which both the quran and hadith proof. Let us assume they dont. So what? Again the concept of tawassul is not shirk nor is it illogical. In terms of Ya Ali madad, no it is not shirk. Human beings call on each other all the time. Human beings go to graves and call on their deceased ones all the time. I think you are failing to understand one thing which is the same problem with wahabis salifis and sunnis and that is your understanding of God, His oneness, and TAWHEED is lacking or incorrect. It always makes me laugh, imagine Yelling "TAXI!!!" in this modern world is shirk according to your understanding LOL