Thaqalayn313

Bismihi Ta'ala (salam) I apologize for assuming you ignored me , i'm not used to the shiachat system yet unfortunately i thought i had quoted you properly and that you would have received the notification, i was wrong. To be completely honest, i think this needs to be moved to another topic and if i were to answer your question from my knowledge, you must understand that in Islam , before understanding the "test" and understanding the quran and the prophet , you must first understand and accept the existence of god before entering such topic, and it must be explained , to a knowledge seeker like you, every aspect of it AND extensively i suppose because you want an answer to all the circumstances and situations possible, am i correct? You cannot jump steps, and if i was to answer you wouldnt understand because we first would have to lay out the whole concept. I am completely busy in my islamic studies and im building an islamic website at the moment and working with organisations, i only have time to drop by shiachat when im spammed with email notifications. So inshallah if you are willing to wait , i will open a topic where first we can discuss extensively on the existence of god THEN when we reach an understanding we can enter the discussion of the test and other than the test. I apologise, for not having the time i really do , but i also have my commitments to fulfill , i will let you know when im done and inshAllah all questions will be answered. I hope you understand. Wasalam

Bismihi Ta'ala (salam) Here we are again with the "what evidence" i think you should read my post again before jumping to conclusions. You are making assumptions. from what you believe even when saying "the believers logic" , you make your statements seem pleasant but in reality they are bleeding with pride and self confidence. No its not reliance on someone else's opinion and its more than faith , theres a difference my friend between faith and blind faith, blind faith requires no "burden of proof" whilst faith does. Judging by your pride and confidence , you give the impression to be a learned man , learned in arabic and quranic studies , tell me what evidence do you have against it? wheres your burden of proof , i follow a religion with more than 2.2 billion followers so im not obligated to bring you any proof your the minority in order to disprove my ways and my teachings/scriptures you must first learn and understand my ways. Im not here trying to prove gods existence according to my religion , i'm not the one going to you and telling you , your wrong. You are , so its your job to prove or disprove not mine. Anyways this conversation is not suited for this topic so lessen the posts unless anyone has anything relevant to say to the topic. So with respect to Sweetn i hope it ends here. Wasalam.

Bismihi Ta'ala (salam) Once again you completely disregard my post, nonetheless you are wrong again, we KNOW who put the test , as the brother mentioned it is in the quran and through riwayat and ahadith, we know more about the test. we are not "assuming" , to use the word assuming means we dont know so were just taking a leap of blind faith. like we dont know if the quran is the word of god or mohhamad (sawa) is his messenger. no my friend we KNOW we dont assume, we are not blindly believing. There is evidence that the quran is the word of god, and if the evidence is there and it IS the word of god then whatever is in it, be it a test or a law then it is non other than Allah s.w's law. and i will mention it again since maybe you didnt understand the first time, if you had any knowledge in tafseer al quran or ulum al quran you would know that, and since you dont have that knowledge , you should as a scholar before making such a statement out of lack of knowledge, so its you who's assuming , not us. You keep asking "how do we know" , brother if you DONT KNOW , go find out. If your ignorant of these matters and you want answers, do you sit down or go to a forum go learn go to a scholar instead of trying to impose your idea that "we have no evidence , its not the word of god , how do we know" , if you really want to go there i suggest you go learn first then come back and repost your statements, because in the end thats all they are statements. No evidence what so ever , the only evidence you ever bring to the table is evidence of your lack of knowledge and your asumptions or conclusions, so im advising you and not attacking you. If you really are going to question and want to know go to a scholar , infact ill help you a new site has been made called http://www.askthesheikh.com/ i suggest you send your questions there. Wasalam

i dont know why it wont let me edit, but anyways if i might add: theres also quran sciences - Ulum al Quran quran exegesis - Tafsir al Quran History - Tarikh Depending on what i want to know

Bismihi Ta'ala (salam) You know what bothers me, it just really does, just reading your posts and i don't mean to offend you , are quite bothersome. I don't see where atheists get their confidence from, they are such a minority and there are billions of god believers around the world and for the past thousands of years and suddenly "we are all wrong" , it makes me laugh really, the common atheist questions his origin, understandable, but if he knew then what. The common atheist questions everything even the laws the rules people have been living with for the past 1400 years.What if they're wrong. For the past 1400 years our messiah has obviously been the common atheist since hes so incredibly smart he just stood up and said " i dont know " and went on whatever form of shiachat there was the past 1400 years and tried to find an answer. Brother, there are SCHOLARS for a reason, if your so confident and keen for answers go to them. I dont see the point of you coming to this topic and making the sister as paranoid as you. And yes i mean it with all honesty i use the term paranoia because us believers dont need as much 'evidence' as you do, i'm satisfied with what i have and i know if i want to know more , and if i want to find the evidence all i have to do is study, and no not abiogenesis , but rather the Arabic linguistics or theology / jurisprudence or even philosophy if not i can go to the scholar and if he answers me and i ask him for 'evidence' he will with no doubt in my mind give me it. So please i feel like you've already gone off topic twice , as much as you think your helping your 'confusing' the sister. I apologise if this sounds adhomenim. Wasalam

Qusasul Anbiya2

(bismillah) I don't know if it has been previousoly posted , i apologise beforehand if it has , but do any of you know where i can download , in English preferably , syed naimatullah jazairi books?

(bismillah) The infallibility of the prophets applies to all muslims , and i think your being too narrow minded i gave you examples of others who came out of harsh circumstances and you completely disregarded them and just used my beginning statement to make the rest of my statements seem invalid. I gave you an Islamic perspective and a non Islamic perspective. You say, one of the "lucky" ones so now luck is involved in manipulation ? so now not ONLY my friend are you saying that someone that is a criminal that was manipulated or molded into who he is by events of his life or the creation around him but he must have BAD LUCK ? oh well that criminal was unlucky he was drawn into bad situations , as if he had no control over himself. I find it quite extraordinary how you are so determined to take the blame off yourself, you try so hard to force yourself to accept what you believe instead of simply admitting to your ignorance. You don't want to , you don't want to blame yourself, your a negative person "Would you like a cookie?" , i wasn't praising myself or showing off , your negativity is present through your replies. And this my friend is the main cause of your distorted ideology , through your negativity you developed your ignorance your so keen on remaining so , infact i praise brother Jebriel for even continuing and replying to you using your ideology it just shows that he has a better sense of morality and patience , he took what you said and applied his thoughts , unlike you throughout this thread you just keep trying to justify your statements. Nevertheless, It seems like your keen on being narrow minded and disregarding anything but your own 'idea' so i think ill just leave i don't see the point with debating with you anymore. I wish you all the best. Wasalam.

(bismillah) On the contrary brother , i can , i'm not basing it on assumptions i am basing it on reality and the reality is , that the infallibility of the prophets and the imams is proven through history, and the fact that they are infallible means that no philosophical argument that is brought forth that contradicts reality can be correct. I don't not want philosophy , you misunderstood. Gods philosophy is present through his prophets , they are HIS vicegerents on earth, their infallibility is enough to remove any other philosophy off the table. That is putting aside , the fine tuned universe , and the system god has placed , though i think that would lead to another topic so i wont touch so much on that, but overall , even if you were to disregard the imams and the prophet , and say history might be wrong or can be changed , i think that even from a probabilistic perspective , its more illogical to put out these philosophies than to deny history and empirical evidence of the universe itself. I also find it quite strange why someone would try so hard to deny something, that he has to go into philosophies just to prove himself. Wasalam

(bismillah) I think i will add one more questions though brother jebriels response hits the nail spot on, Now two things crossed my mind as i read the posts till now, you seem to have absolved those who become criminals mistakes due to the world around them. I'll answer you first from an islamic perspective: The prophet and the 12 imams were infallible. The Holy Quran states it , and history confirms it. The place where they were born,he was an orphan and was raised by his uncle to one of the most corrupt nations,corrupt and ignorant of people , the Arabs of that time , in what we call "3asr el jaheliya" or " The Era of Ignorance". Yet, ever since a young age being raised in such a place , with all the people/circumstances that could have "manipulated" him, he did not fall for them and made his own decisions and became a leader for mankind. His infallibility and especially the infallibility of the imams is evidence enough. This manipulative and imperfect world that leads to bad concept is destroyed by the mere fact that the imams, who weren't prophets and lived in the time of ignorance, also were infalliable. So the concept of being in a corrupt area or having no parents or being around thugs leading to who you are , is proven wrong throughout history. The infallibility of the imams shows freedom of choice. Anyways aside from the islamic perspective, because from your posts i dont think you'll consider them completely valid if valid at all, i'll give you other examples: Ghandi Malcom X Martin Luther King Jr. Rosa Parks Nelson Mandela Buddha Sayed Hassan Nasrallah Ayatullah Ruhullah Khomeini etc, Now why weren't these people manipulated by the circumstances they were in? they didnt HAVE to do what they did? they could've remained ignorant like everybody else and had just said "this is gods fault ,we were born into a corrupt world, what can we do" i know from personal experience , i lived and befriended drunks,potheads,drug dealers , adulterers, i had no brothers or sister to tell me whats right or whats wrong and my parents were both at work for long hours throughout my life, i had the WORST people in my community. I decided that i wasn't going to be like them i WITNESSED wrong and hadn't seen right but decided to do so. I abandoned all my community and have only 3 friends now. I stepped up and began educating myself so i could know whats right and wrong. i refused to bow down to ignorance. i witnessed first hand the power of ignorance, and i CHOSE to be who i am today. I wasn't 'manipulated' , if your theory/analysis applied than i should be a drunk,high, sex addict, and/or a murderer. Now deny my circumstances , tell me it wasn't my choice. Tell me i was manipulated , i challenge you. Tell me why i didn't take the easy way out , the easy life and decided to step forth and look at every trial as a blessing and learn from it, explain because its either i'm just some abnormal , rare , mentally retarded person who happens to enjoy going through hardship and sacrificing his social life. & if your going to tell me that it was because i witnessed what it did to them i was manipulated to become who i am today , then your just contradicting yourself because it is the same case of the criminal. The difference between them and me , is exactly what Imam Ali says: "The man of knowledge is the one who recognizes that what is known is very little compared to what is not known, and as a result he considers himself ignorant, and accordingly he increases his efforts to know more by going out in search of knowledge." " The learned man understands the ignorant for he was once ignorant for he was once ignorant himself." I learned from my ignorance idevonian, i didn't bow down and say i live in an imperfect system so my acts are justified no matter what , i realized the imperfection in the ways of mankind and chose to follow my idols the infallible imams to pursue perfection. and finally , life isn't black & white, if you don't want to brush your teeth its fine , you wont harm yourself if you get your teeth replaced with false teeth, there are so many different options to the examples you state. you should broaden the possibilities , i know a person who hasn't been to the dentist since he was 9 and he doesn't brush his teeth. Never complains , gargles his mouth in salt water and his teeth aren't unattractive in appearance either. so please don't give such plain and regular examples and make it seem like your "choice-less" and your manipulated because your so limited in choice , there's plenty of choices. Wasalam.

(bismillah) Its alright , i apologise for not quoting you i was tired and in a hurry for sleep :) i would reply to you but i think brother Jibreil took the words out of my mouth and said it better than i probably would have so, i see no need to reply until his is replied to. Wasalam.

(bismillah) Salam, I would just like to understand this blind man falling into a hole statement better, just out of curiosity, you make it seem like its an everyday situation that a hole MAY be present for a blind man. Questions: 1: What blind man walks down a street with holes? you can google it if you want for fun lol 2. Is there no one present to warn him , a person who is blind has a greater sense of hearing. 3. Does he not have a guide , a walking stick, a dog or anything? 4. Would there just be a hole in the ground with no signs around it or barriers blocking even a REGULAR person from falling into it. 5. Even if the blind man decides to walk in an area with such potential danger is it not HIS decision that caused his falling into a hole? 6.The situation seems like an unlikely one , and im not making assumptions all i'm saying is why put so much effort into making such an unlikely situation to prove whether its gods "responsibility" or "fault" , why make such an unlikely situation an example? i don't get it. Are we keen on making it seem what we want it to seem? 7.The issue of this innocent blind man into walking into this hole , is HIS fault yes it is , its an unlikely situation and even if it did happen , what blind man would not check or ask or find out about the places he walks around. So basically for the blind man to walk into the hole it requires either: A: No people around to witness , warn or tell him. B: No barriers/signs around this mysteriously , and i'm assuming deep hole? , if it wasn't deep it wouldn't cause him much harm. C: No guide , walking stick or dog with this blind man. A situation with none of the above cannot be possible rationally , and if it can, say it was a crater or something we have to assume this man just happened to be on some mountain or whatever it may be, this BLIND man decided for some reason hes going to venture into this area. AND EVEN IF IT WAS POSSIBLE ,the mere fact that he would have made that decisions means the consequence is the result of his decisions and has nothing to do with god, but rather himself. I think we tend to try to test with these situations , i think rather we should take in the likeliness of the situation and the reality of your theory, because if the practical application wouldn't work. Then you need to go back to the drawing board. Wasalam.

(bismillah) I think we have strayed the topic to an excess of philosophies and philosophical statements , the perfection of Allah s.w is present in his perfect infallible prophets and imams , its that simple even if we do find a gap in the philosophy , the philosophy must be wrong because if the practical application is perfect , then the true philosophy is perfect. Its that simple , no need for what ifs and therefores and examples and metaphors,and analysis and the infallibility of the prophets & imams (pbut) is evidence enough of perfection. Wasalam.

I am glad that you have clarified , i apologise for my lack of understanding , i never intended for your curiosity to go away , i was just stating that from an islamic perspective to put human emotions in comparison with god , is wrong in itself. It is good to question and be curious, but if your going to question it from an islamic viewpoint you have to also accept the attributes given to him islamically. and i think you got me wrong my opinion isnt "just because god knows everything" that would be blind faith. The creator , of emotions , has knowledge of what he created as Billyjo has stated, that is what i was trying to point out , just the word creator. Answers all , did you ever see a product made by a manufacturer , and the manufacturer did not know what the product was ? God is the manufacturer he KNOWS what he has created. As i said before he didnt have to experience to know , this is yet again a human attribute of knowing through trial , we must keep in mind that god is under no trial. Anyways i was just clarifying myself. Wasalam.