313_Waiter

Yes exactly. This principle could be stretched to justify a lot of heinous acts.
It also presupposes materialism and does not consider the spiritual harm of one’s acts.

Ah the liberal ‘Harm Principle’ by John Stuart Mill. Often used by gay activists to justify homosexuality—i.e. “it’s two consenting adults…”

Usual democracy wallahs silent
 
 

Salam Brother!!
Thank you for sharing this profound hadith. 
Jazak Allah!!
Wassalam!!

Your questions are very important and remind me of a few Hadiths I will quote below, from both Sunni and Shi’i texts.
Shi’i Hadith:
 
 
Sunni Ahadith:
 

 

Your questions are very important and remind me of a few Hadiths I will quote below, from both Sunni and Shi’i texts.
Shi’i Hadith:
 
 
Sunni Ahadith:
 

 

Your questions are very important and remind me of a few Hadiths I will quote below, from both Sunni and Shi’i texts.
Shi’i Hadith:
 
 
Sunni Ahadith:
 

 

Two pages of long speech, while my solution of 'look how inmates handle the issue' was quite pragmatic. 
I am NOT saying to build large compounds of homosexuals, except we mix them, 1 man 1 woman per cell. 
I am NOT. 

I know what wajib kifayi is, I was replying to Abu Hadi saying Adhan/iqama are mustahab. 
I could not find confirmation of It being wajhi kifayi, but if It was, adding content would be even more problematic. 
This topic is getting ridiculously repetitive, same arguments over and over again. 
What it confirms though is that all topics about 'not questioning ourselves' like Istigatha, 3rd Kalima in dhan, tafwid are always defended as a package by those who defend them : it'it's rare to find someone pro Istigatha denying 3rd Kalima in adhan, or vice versa. This is, I think, a trait of excessive (maybe should I say stubborn) conservatism, and when  this excessive conservatism is dubious because it somehow contradicts the word of Allah, people should question themselves seriously. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gave many of his orders in a clear cut way, not through sinuous allusions. When He says 'Invoke me and I will grant you', he did not expect scholars 1400 years after explaining on pulpits that Al Abbas ibn Ali (عليه السلام) is the closest interlocutor one should address in dire times. 

InshaAllah I will answer your questions but before that I have a small comment. What I previously wrote was that some of us choose to follow what the ma'sumeen (عليه السلام) did and others apparently prefer to do their own thing. What you have written above is apparently a response to that, but it actually doesn't refute anything because nobody can ever refute following a sunnah. The fact that you are trying to argue against it is very strange and something you need to interrogate yourself about.
Now for your question.
The act of discussing the deen is indeed a sunnah, whether you discuss it over a phone or in person is simply a means or a method. If someone claims that the computer or the phone themselves are the sunnah then clearly they are mistaken. Similarly your other examples (why use a car, why use a modern shower etc) are always referring to methods of achieving a sunnah rather than the actual sunnah itself. 
Whether I use a car to go to the mosque or a bicycle or a camel, the actual act of worship which is the visitation of the mosque and the worship carried out in the mosque, remain as taught by the thaqalayn. Whether you read the Qur'an from the mushaf or your computer screen, the Qur'an remains the same. 
Note that we are not changing the acts of worship here. 
Now when you try to make an analogy with the adhan, if this is indeed what you were attempting, then clearly there is a flaw, because you are now trying to compare the established sunnah itself with the method of achieving the sunnah. If you said, today we recite the adhan through a microphone whereas back then they didn't, then indeed we are still discussing methods rather than altering the actual sunnah itself which is the adhan. But to try and make an analogy with the actual content of the adhan and to argue that we can modify it as we please since we drive cars and use cellphones, is frankly quite an illogical argument.
InshaAllah this clarifies the issue for you. 
 

Dear brother Abu Zahra, why have you made the practice of discussing the deen of Allah and the sunnah of Ahlulbayt through a means ie computer/phone/internet in which they never have practiced? Can you justify or prove to me this is not bid'a? There is not a single proof that they ever used technology as a means to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). So how come you have adapted or added this practice within your faith? Why do you use a vehicle as a means to travel to the mosque? Why are you using a western toothbrush? Why are you using a shower? Why are you using western utensils when you eat food? Why are you using a rug when you pray? Why do you wear western clothing while you pray?  These were clearly not in the practices of our prophet or ahlulbayt. They had a clear way of practicing these things in hadith did they not? So how do you justify this? How do you justify these acts of bid'a, or antithetical to their practices?

Thanks for not deleting. Whilst I see these topics might be controversial, they are important discussions to have as a Shia community.

Thanks for not deleting. Whilst I see these topics might be controversial, they are important discussions to have as a Shia community.

Brother, forget about this discussion. shiachat is filled with topics discussing how all maraji` deemed 3rd testimony not part of adhan, yet it is still mustahab because actually we find narrations saying Bilal recited it right after Ghadir day. 
Another example of how nowadays shias will undergo any mental gymnastics to justify the situation they are in today. Shias do not differ from other sects in the sense they do not want to reform themselves. 
And this goes way beyond the 3rd testimony issue : 
- Golden, tourist resort style shrines cities : it's not that good indeed because visitors are preoccupied more with the food and star ratings than the spiritual, but after all it's not that bad either because at least they still prefer Karbala to Ibiza, and also it supports a local economy (they don't see how miserable Iraqis, or people in the Saying Zeinab area are though). 
- 95% of minbar speeches are repetitive and include many superstitions : reminder benefits the believer, plus there are 5% of great scholars who raise interesting topics, for those who like to search YouTube or al-islam.org. 
- Disinterest in Qur'an or core Islamic topics : no problem since we win annual competitions
@Ya Mahdi1999,  your post is excessive in its title but accurate in some of its accusations, unfortunately. 
@Eddie Mecca made great points regarding incapacity of Muslims to escape the same fate as their predecessors, by clinging to a saved sect theory. 
All brothers @Ethics@Ashvazdanghe @Coolare the reflection of our community : great people with firm faith but they do not like to be contradicted 

When you ask controversial questions, you might get a variety of answers, some of which are acceptable, some are quite balanced and others are confusing. Tempers can get heated and some people feel hurt. I have been asked to delete this topic, but have decided against it, because some people are still preparing to reply. If anyone regrets posting in this thread, please stop replying and ignore the discussion.

I do not believe or accept such an ideology where the Imam is going to come and start cutting heads off. I do not care how many hadiths there are my logic and the holy quran contradict this notion. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in the holy quran says there is no compulsion in religion and that life is a test. The simple fact that the Imam (عليه السلام) will reappear means with certainty and validity no alim or scholar can dare challenge the true representative of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). In hadiths on the contrary we find that the whole world will realize he is truly a representative of God, especially Muslims who adhere to this belief. So there will be no confusion. For those that will try and misguide will simply fail like those that tried to do so in every prophet or imams time.
 
 


Now that we got that out of the way. It is impossible not to have rolemodels in life be it inside and outside of faith. Especially as Muslims who believe Islam is a way of LIFE, not just faith. Need I remind you, even during the ahlulbayts time, people that were not near them, the companions of theirs were in different lands guiding and educating people on HOW to emulate the imams.

The issue here is not blind faith, but who are you going to follow ultimately because you 1000000000% are going to take the advice of someone. Those outside of islam? or you? or someone else that is ignorant that has no credentials nor the experience nor the knowledge? The most rational option is following those invested with knowledge and the religion who has dedicated their lives and through the test of time and people have shown their credibility and worth. And, by taking this role, they on judgement day have accepted and understood they will be judged for their words and actions as they were scholars within the community. I am not in the position nor have the capability, and neither does the vast majority of the muslim ummah to derive their fiqh/jurisprudence on their own. The most we are capable of and required is to continue our life long journey to seek knowledge and have a firm understanding in our usooludeen.

"Ask those who know, if you do not know" Surah Nahl 43

I consider Sayed Sistani a great man. I am not talking about anyone in particular here...
But in the future, couldn’t there be ulema who lead people astray? Isn’t Imam Mahdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) said to kill many of these in narrations?
Therefore, isn’t there issues with blind following every opinion of ulema?

I consider Sayed Sistani a great man. I am not talking about anyone in particular here...
But in the future, couldn’t there be ulema who lead people astray? Isn’t Imam Mahdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) said to kill many of these in narrations?
Therefore, isn’t there issues with blind following every opinion of ulema?

Just to correct this misconception, the modern stance on the addition to the adhan is not exactly the way you may have understood it (several centuries and generations of scholars). In reality this practice was only normalized after the Safawids enforced it around 900 AH.
Before that, for 900 years it was a practice that was attributed to the ghulat and condemned by the likes of as-Saduq, Shaheed al Awwal, Shaheed al Thani, Muhaqqiq al Hilli, Muqaddas Ardabili and others. It seems to have no proponents among the first 9 centuries of ulama in Islam.
It is up to you which stance you take but I thought it was important to clarify this small misconception. 

The Imams (a) mentioned to not be of those 'who lag behind' (i.e. Sunnis) nor be of those who 'venture too far ahead of us' (i.e. ghulat or bordline ghulat, exaggerators etc.)…later category of people want to nudge Twelver Shi'ism closer to ʿAlawīyah or Druze understanding...we want to remain balanced.

Nothing has been argued with you brother. I am not arguing anything specially with you. 
إِنَّا نَحْنُ نُحْيِي الْمَوْتَى وَنَكْتُبُ مَا قَدَّمُوا وَآثَارَهُمْ وَكُلَّ شَيْءٍ أحْصَيْنَاهُ فِي إِمَامٍ مُبِينٍ
36:12
طس تِلْكَ آيَاتُ الْقُرْآنِ وَكِتَابٍ مُّبِينٍ
27:1
وَمَا مِنْ غَائِبَةٍ فِي السَّمَاء وَالْأَرْضِ إِلَّا فِي كِتَابٍ مُّبِينٍ
27:75
وَمَا مِن دَآبَّةٍ فِي الأَرْضِ إِلاَّ عَلَى اللّهِ رِزْقُهَا وَيَعْلَمُ مُسْتَقَرَّهَا وَمُسْتَوْدَعَهَا كُلٌّ فِي كِتَابٍ مُّبِينٍ
11:6
وَعِندَهُ مَفَاتِحُ الْغَيْبِ لاَ يَعْلَمُهَا إِلاَّ هُوَ وَيَعْلَمُ مَا فِي الْبَرِّ وَالْبَحْرِ وَمَا تَسْقُطُ مِن وَرَقَةٍ إِلاَّ يَعْلَمُهَا وَلاَ حَبَّةٍ فِي ظُلُمَاتِ الأَرْضِ وَلاَ رَطْبٍ وَلاَ يَابِسٍ إِلاَّ فِي كِتَابٍ مُّبِينٍ
6:59
Perhaps you neither knows who is Imamin Mubeen nor you knows Kutabin Mubeen.
Do you believe in Quran? If yes, I have quoted the verses above, would you deny them?
Open up the eyes of your heart. So the knowledge of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) becomes finite if He wrote everything in a book He mentioned as "Kitabin Mubeen"? 
And read these profound verses again and again to see what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has not written in "Kitabin Mubeen". 
So do you think that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is infinite and there is another infinite thing i.e., Kitabin Mubeen which contains knowledge of everything? 
And how can anything even "contain" the infinite? So what does that mean when Allah says:
وَمَا مِنْ غَائِبَةٍ فِي السَّمَاء وَالْأَرْضِ إِلَّا فِي كِتَابٍ مُّبِينٍ
27:75) And there is nothing concealed in the heaven and the earth but it is in a clear book.
Any idea?

What the original Masjid an-Nabawī may have looked like 
 

Wa alaikum as salam brother. Excellent post, I fully agree with your observations and concerns (just not with the title suggesting apostasy)
1. I agree that the extravagant structures initiated by the Abbasids and later continued by the Safavids and other dynasties are not representative of the way the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) used to live and interact with the people. The shrine culture is not something that originates from tashayyu, nor is the behavior that is often witnessed inside these shrines. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) protect us from such things.
 
2. Before the Safavid dynasty no major Shi'i scholar is known to have supported this innovation, rather they considered it as ghuluw (Saduq), erroneous (Tusi) or innovated (Shaheed al Awwal and others). 
Professor Takim has written a fantastic article on this:
http://www.ltakim.com/articles.html
 
3. Most Western speakers have indeed limited themselves to polemics, a few repetitive topics and secondary subjects. Luckily there are still some who are addressing the core issues. You can find my recommendations on this thread:
 
 
4. Yes, cultural rituals (not originating from the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) ) have become an obsession and even an industry among modern day Shi'a. I can only advise you to avoid such things and stay close to the sunnah of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and the Aimmah (عليه السلام).
 
5. The early Shi'a (and of course the aimmah (عليه السلام) ) themselves were indeed well known for their transmittal, memorization and recitation of the Qur'an. This sunnah has been lost among contemporary communities and definitely needs to be revived.
 
6. Istighatha has no basis in the Qur'an and authentic hadith, both of which teach us the correct and only way of supplication which is to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) only.
 
7. Aside from tattoos, which are frankly disgusting and an imitation of the kuffar, the general culture and lifestyle of many of us seems to be heavily influenced by non Muslims. InshaAllah this is something which can be rectified before it is completely lost.
 
In conclusion I would say that your observations are accurate. Luckily Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has given yourself and other like minded followers of the ma'sumeen (عليه السلام) to revive authentic tashayyu. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) give you strength and tawfeeq in this endeavour. Feel free to PM me if I can support in any way. 
 
 
 
 

*Sigh*
La hawla wala quwataillah billah
I never once hinted we should not be talking about the ahlul bayt. Never. After tawheed, the essence of the ahlul bayt comes afterwards. Because it is through them that salah, fasting, zakat, pilgrimage is established. 
What I am trying to highlight is that the some speakers within our communities only fixate their lectures on the ahlulbayt and the injustice they were subjected to. I am totally fine with such series and talks, but I wish these speakers can broaden their topics to other avenues. 
Again, this is directed mainly at some English speakers within our communities. I am not saying or even hinting that every English shia scholar or teacher is like this.......

Satan is using excessive love and excessive hatred of Muhammad and his progeny to lead Muslims astray from the path of pure moderation (a.k.a. the middle path)…building a shrine of gold, silver, diamonds, rubies etc. won't right the wrongs of Islamic history