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In the Name of God بسم الله


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    Shia Ithna Asheri

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  1. By U*ars own admission in Bukhari, the appointment of Abu.B was a slip, from which faults Allah (swt) saved the community from. No "genuine trust" given by the immediate circle of closest friends. Illusions and fairytales. The succession of the complete, fully conveyed message of Islam by God to mankind was a slip, a whoops. Have fun defending that one, I'd rather spend my money on atheism if this was the foresight of a divine system.
  2. According to agreed upon history a rightly guided caliph rejected the sunnah of two rigthtly guided caliphs. What a cocktail of chaos and confusion the Holy Prophet must have left for his Ummah, unless...
  3. For sure the opponent was not interested in a diolague as much as to prove his point, but still, the very premise was wrong from the outset. Proving imam al Jawads (a.s) imamate from sunni tawatur sources is impossible. With that in mind I don't know why one would engage in a challenge like that. I would argue that the brother had a point when he admitted to Imam alis imamate, yet for arguments sake, and then asked for evidence about the rest of the imams because it was not about proving the first imams wilaya, but all twelve of them, peace be upon them all. Thus the debate should not even have started. Im also pretty sure about which grounds he wanted to take the Ghadeer debate to that he was so keen on initiating, and turn it into a grammar competition over the word mawla, but even then the context and the proceeding inquires from the holy prophet pbuhAhf about "al astu Awla.." would be proof enough about it's meaning. Sad, all in all that the manifest truth did not manifest itself, as maybe a few sceptical brothers watching from the sidelines would have seen haq.
  4. Now that the debate has come to a rather abrupt ending, I'd like the members to post any thoughts they might have about the session, the different arguments, the ever so evident "obsticles" they encountered etc. Personally, I would like to argue that the acceptance to the challenge was wrong, and don't think that there is explicit evidence for the imamah of the twelve in the sunni corpus, albeit Ali's imamate can be proven, the other eleven is merely indicative, or hintive at best.
  5. It's in Tabari dealing with the exile of Alis companions and Ibn Al Athirs detailed about qaqa ibn amr al tamimi
  6. But brother, thats is plain incorrect, even for your school of thought. If you were to but open your eyes! There is not a single Sunni with half a mind that would say that we don't need the sahabas since they are considered the foundation of the deen, the ones that transmitted the sunnah to us. In that case, how about the greatest of Sahabas? his brother? His nafs, his wasi and the walking Quran? What about the hadith of the two weighty things? Quran and ahlel bayt? hold on to them BOTH so you may never go astray. A clear prophetic injuction to hold on to Ali alongside the quran for guidance. I am the city of knowledge and Ali is it's gate, Whoever wishes to enter the City Must come to the Gate. Refusal to acknowledge the sole purpose behind these statements, i.e mastership of Ali ans his family is tantamount to the the kind of denial of clear divine orders brother SFTL was talking about.
  7. A. So Umar realised that it was unwise and refused to obey a clear command from the holy prophet saws ? "Bring me.." Ali a.s. did not omit anything, The holy prophet dismissed them all with "leave me for I'm in a better state than that which you describe" B. It was the prophets order, not his family's so this point makes no sense. C. Since the close entrusted sahabas had priorly shown refusal to carry out the instruction, to the very point of calling their prophet delirious, there was obviously no gain in trying to persuade them to obey the command again. Some sunni brothers however do think that the prophet narrated his final will that would prevent them from "going astray", but they conclude that this was about the three last instructions that he gave them, driving out the pagans etc. This equally makes no sense because it has nothing to do with guidance and the traps of falling into sin.
  8. Faris. According to the foremost sunni theologians, the term "ummul momineen" is merely a fiqhi ruling relating to the non permassibility of marrying the prophets wives, that's it and that's all. Al-Tabari: "His wives are their mother's." This is in prohibition of the wives like the prohibition of their mother’s, which mean after his (saw) death they are forbidden to marry his wives in the manner they are forbidden to marry their own mothers. Al-Suyuti: (And his wives are their mothers 33.6). This is forbidding any marriage with them. Source: Tafsir Al-Jalalayn. Pg. # 418. It is tiring to educate sunnis in sunnism. thus my point still stands, she is NOT related to uthman. Furthermore, Imam Ali a.s cetainly did not consider her position valid, or her relation to him. That should and is enough to nullify her every claim to qisas or whatever, full stop. The imam has spoken, and she mobilizes an army? The rest of your post is irrelevant since we consider ourselves to be the only followers of ahlel bayt, the wives are not included in this group, but that's a different topic we can discuss. And the blessings are for Him And his family. Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 6.320 Narrated Ka’b bin Ujra: It was said, "O Allah’s Apostle! We know how to greet you, but how to invoke Allah for you?”The Prophet said, "Say: O Allah! Send your blessings/greetings (Salawat) on Muhammad and his family, the same way as You sent Your blessings/greetings on Abraham’s family. You are indeed worthy of all praise, full of glory.’"
  9. What revenge? She was the first person to cry for him being killed with " Kill this Nathal for he has apostisized!" In Tareekh Kamil Volume 3 page 100 Ibn Atheer records that: "Ubayd bin Abi Salma who was a maternal relative of Ayesha met her as she was making her way to Madina. Ubayd said "Uthman has been killed and the people were without an Imam for eight days" to which Ayesha asked "What did they do next?". Ubayd said "The people approached 'Ali and gave him bayya". Ayesha then said 'Take me back! Take me back to Makka". She then turned her face towards Makka and said, 'Verily Uthman was murdered innocently, and By Allah, I shall avenge his blood'. Ubayd then said 'You are now calling Uthman innocent, even though it was you who said 'Kill Nathal, this Jew". Are you arguing sharia with ameer al momineen? Besides, it is for the family or heirs to the murdered to demand retaliation, not Aishas who wasn't even remotely related to Uthman, but Also was told to "confine to her house" by Allah. You're running in circles, why can't you simply digest or entertain the idea that she held a grudge against Ali a.s and under the pretext of the ridicilous qisas went to war?
  10. Salam brother. May your love for ahlel bayt guide you to their true leadership and abandon the leadership of the illegitimate ones. Here is the hadith you asked for; Abu Ayyub al-Ansari citing the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him and his progeny saying that the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) addressed Fatima once thus: "O Fatima! Have you not come to know that Allah the Dear One cast a look at the inhabitants of the earth and chose your father from among them and sent him as His Messenger then He cast a second look and selected your husband and inspired me to marry him to you and appoint him as my successor. hadith number 2541 on page 143 Vol. 6 of Kanz al-`Ummal
  11. “Tell me Ayesha what role do women have in leading armies and reforming the Ummah? You claim that you want to avenge Uthman’s blood, Uthman was a man from Banu Ummaya whilst you are a woman from Banu Taym Ibn Murra”. " Imam ameer al momineen" See how Ali a.s thought of this "naturally formed group"? Like that of an ARMY. Upon Reading this, she should have bowed her head in humility, obeyed her imam and backed of.."
  12. Furthermore, Ali a.s himself rebuked aishas claim to qisas, considering it void since : 1. She wasn't from Uthmans tribe 2. She was a woman Sahih hadeeth state that whosoever splits away from the Jamaah by disobeying the imam of his/her time, and dies, dies the death of jahiliya. Not only did she split away, she waged war on the Holy prophet. You guys are in quicksand, claiming a fools standpoint with the stubbornness of an ass.
  13. Muslim720 playing satans advocate: "I qoute: Since Aisha came to convince Imam Ali [ra] to persecute those who killed Uthman [ra], naturally formed a group around Aisha [ra] (since they agreed on the matter, that is, there should qisas" How pathetic, "formed a group" yea, with battalions, drawn swords and battle chants. Typical umawi tactics. Following his predecessors footsteps in bending all logic, twisting apparent meanings so as to belittle the injustice done to imam ameer al monineen, the nafs of the Holy prophet saws .
  14. The tafsirs from ahlel bayt a.s make clear that yusuf a.s was not briefly swayed by his lust towards Zulaykha when the quran says :"She decided on him and he decided on her". Rather she decided to fornicate with him and he decided to kill her instead of allowing that to happen. You can't just read it as it is, there is a depeer meaning behind the verse.
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