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In the Name of God بسم الله


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  1. Is it possible to do other than what you will actually do?
  2. They aren't looking for guidance, they're looking for assurance.
  3. I completely agree that it is the heart that find religion, and not the mind. The mind only allows, the mind solves conflicts and shows that religion is a rational possibility. If you are sincere in trying to find religion, then I suggest you speak to scholars (on someone else's recommendation). They will know the ways, for those who have an open heart. I truly feel sorry for those who have no faith at all, not because I believe they are living in ignorance, but because they simply cannot feel what a believer does. This is something which is impossible to explain through words - which makes it even sadder. Taking a page out of Kierkegaard's book, can an atheist ever understand Abraham's sacrifice of his son? Never. Can a believer? Easily. From your posts sometimes it feels like you understand God, but other times you don't. Organised religion as a business? What money have I given? Is it a terrible thing to give funding to your local mosque where children can learn and make friends? Is it a terrible thing to give money to the poor? This isn't God demanding charity, it is Him allowing us to give it.
  4. That's a bold claim The only man who has any potential of telling you truth is the Philsopher Yes, it's true
  5. Seems like you answered your own question
  6. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacinta_and_Francisco_Marto#Illness_and_death Although the videos from Hujr were fake the fact that they reported they had taken out the 'body' means there was something more than just brittle bones (which should probably be almost dust by now). Also I recall something similar happening in Iran some time ago. I'll try to find out more about that.
  7. The God I believe is the only God that can exist - not one I pick and choose. My problem was that you were looking at only one aspect of God and claiming that He must do this or that because of it. God is all merciful and kind - but He is all just and wise. When you put all these together, it becomes difficult to tell what should/should not be the case. You create scenario's based on your own thoughts and experience and claim that an all powerful God must follow the same course of action, this is what I cannot agree with. Feel free to have it as a personal motive to reject God, but it is not an objectively sound argument. If we are talking about logical propositions, we would not be discussing ideas about God - we are certainly transgressing far beyond our realm of logic. What we are doing now is simply playing a game of words, trying to make each other see something rather than know something.
  8. I disagree. Let us use your example of diseases such as cancer that cause slow and painful deaths to people. Surely this is bad. They suffer and in the end they only die. There is no immediate benefit to this. But from what I understand, my religion tells us that those who suffer and go through these sorts of things are rewarded in one or another after they die. This, of course, is an impossible thing to argue with an atheist. But it is the only answer. They do not like to hear this response because it gives them nothing that is breakable or physical but such is the nature of what we are trying to say. When we say God is all merciful we are not saying it in isolation. God is also all knowing and all just etc. It makes the case that God should make us live happy lives because He is all merciful a bit more difficult. I still fail to see why you think suffering negates the existence of a merciful God. Perhaps this is my limitation. I do not think we have ever agreed, but that is fine, that is good. I am glad we have these conversations. The question itself is absurd. You are asking something that you already know has no possible answer within this world. It's like asking why God did not create us earlier than He did. What we know about God is limited to our mental capabilities and I do not know why God created suffering as much as I do not know why God would create the universe with a big bang or create His species through evolution (examples). What this argument is about is actually for you to prove why suffering is incompatible with an all merciful, but entirely complete God.
  9. If we take this on a personal level, you are right. I do not believe most conversations about God have any (logical) worth. We are discussing things that we cannot understand. I do find arguments about God futile, not only because no one wins but because we aren't really saying anything to each other. Nonetheless, I do participate. Language does have the ability to make others see something that logic cannot touch on. Also, for my own sake. But let me address your point. I can state with certainty that you do not know what 'knowing' is. What does it take to know something? If you answer with your opinion, I will not accept it. You will need to provide 'logic' behind what you say. If you are able to accomplish this, I would take your argument more seriously. Don't get me wrong, this is a question that relates to every single human being, not just you or atheists. But this has no definitive answer, that is the problem. Let's look at it a different way 1) Claims are that God is all powerful etc. 2) There is suffering in the world 3) An all powerful God would not allow suffering 4) God does not exist/or is not God I won't try to argue the validity of the argument because arguments can always be worded differently. Let us look at the feasibility. 3 is an incredibly subjective claim which almost not theist accepts - but all atheists do. There is not an argument to show WHY an all powerful God would not allow people to suffer simply on the basis that He could make them not suffer. This isn't an 'obvious' thing because many people see value in suffering - as do I. You can ask a Monk and they will tell you suffering is caused by you and only you. I do not agree with this, but you see my point? On what basis do you feel pain/suffering is a punishment? When you work out at the gym, does your body not ache? But does it not get stronger and faster each time you do it? I find it absurd to relate pain to punishment and I see no link between the two. But to even have this conversation you must already have an idea of what your god is like - and that is something I do not know about you. I would not consider suffering itself as a good thing - and no one should (except a sadist probably). It is what suffering can allow a human being to do that is beautiful. Keep in mind that suffering is not limited to physical pain. Suffering makes a human humble, appreciative and understanding. Like Quistant, you can ask why does God have to do this through suffering and not just give us those qualities regardless, but that is an absurd question which goes beyond the realm of what any human being can tell you. The nature of the God we are discussing limits our ability to ask/answer certain questions, this being one of them. On a personal level, I do not believe we understand exactly what God means by 'punishment'. Our idea of punishment seems to that you wronged somewhere and you need to suffer for what you did. Perhaps God's idea of punishment is that you have wronged yourself and through suffering you will truly realise the wrong you did. But this is just me. As for your last paragraph, why do you limit to to religious folk? Why not 'mentally insane' or 'patriotism' or anything else. Almost anything can be used in order to murder. You may have just been caught up with the media which makes you think this way.
  10. Concentrate on your prayers. Keep them regular and devoted. Praying will fix your life, this is a promise.
  11. You don't seem to understand the role death plays in religion. Death is not a punishment (in most cases). If 200 thousand people drown, that is not God punishing them. That is them dying. Although I do understand what you are saying, I am stating that this is something that is very difficult to say because we are not omniscient, omnipotent or benevolent. How do you know what the behaviour of all powerful being who has limitless qualities in all possible attributes? The bold statement is incorrect. Suffering is not needless - it has great benefits. Ask a monk. This question is far more general than just the 'evil' problem. You can question every single way God has done something. But this is futile because there are infinite number of ways an all powerful God has done what He has done. You are questioning an aspect of God that is beyond our understanding by the nature of God. Only question what we can know.
  12. I do not believe a benevolent God should give us rewards without having to earn it. Should you be given anything in life that you do not deserve? Do you expect to be given riches and fame for doing nothing? You seem to fail to see the value in suffering. Suffering, itself, is not something we seek. But when faced with suffering it gives us the opportunity to grow and become wiser. Do you not see any value in this? Your argument is based on what God can do. Because you see more value in something God could do, it does not mean you know that that would be the best course. This is not something that can be argued - you may have it as a personal belief but it is not an argument.
  13. I, too, don't see any strength in the evil argument. There are far stronger arguments an atheist can make. Evil, to an extent, is very subjective. As the above post states, when can we draw the line as to what evil is? Can someone not claim it to be unjust that an all powerful being has not given all power to someone else? Or that His power has not been shared equally? Remember to be 'evil' there needs to be context. In addition, I find it unfortunate how most atheists expect a worldly answer for a question that really can only be understood outside of our sphere. As believers, it is our belief that those who unjustly suffer will be rewarded. This answer is more than often rejected because there is no way to relate this in life (although plenty atheists still, for whatever reason, hold on to the idea that karma exists).
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