kadhim

Yes. Thank you. Or just, you know, purchase and consume it moderately instead of downing it by the gallon like it’s water. People need to take responsibility for themselves more. It’s funny how, a couple of weeks out of Ramadan, self-control becomes just a distant unimaginable memory.

K dood.

Punctuation is your friend, akhi.

Yes. You’re still the one being silly here. Look. One can say any number of things about globalization and international beverage consumption and advertising and what have you. But it’s silly to demonize this young lady because she chooses to perform her art on the biggest platform in her country. It just is. She’s not responsible for any of this other jazz. Also. If Pakistanis decide they want to drink Coca Cola instead of Pakola or whatever, guess whose fault that is? Hint: Not Coca-Cola. And also. I have to say. Leaning on the “American” roots of rap/hip hop as if that in itself is a dirty word, when rap has become in a sense part of the international poetic language of the oppressed, and when even in its American roots it was the music of the underclass shows a certain gross cultural illiteracy and just goes to underline the one-dimensionality of your thinking here.

It’s unclear what exactly the distinction he is trying to make here is. Before viability (24 weeks+), a threat to the mother by definition endangers the fetus as well because there is no way to support a fetus before that without the mother. Before viability there is no way to save the fetus but the mother can be saved. So these two cases are inseparable before viability. After viability I guess the option of an emergency C-section and NICU support appears as an alternative to abortion if the mother is endangered, assuming she is well enough for the surgery. Although the earlier that happens before full term, the harder it is for the pre-term baby. I’m sure a lot of mothers-to-be in this sort of difficult situation would be willing to trade a reasonable amount of risk to themselves, and even a somewhat unreasonable level of risk to themselves, to give their baby the best shot at life. But that sort of risk trade-off is really best made on a case by case basis by the mother-to-be in consultation with her physicians. The Khamenai fatwa I still am not fully satisfied with—it seems to give more weight to the baby than the woman—but it starts to give reasonable room to deal with the ethical complexity of reality. It shows an attempt at balance. The Sistani fatwa on the other hand is just … bad. Sistani is really not a good reference on medical ethics.

Prove it or delete. Protecting a life overrides basically everything. This is slanderously wrong misinformation.

Dude, what are you even talking about? Coke Studio is a huge partner for musicians in Pakistan. It’s one of the most prominent music programs in the country, and showcases a broad range of different artists, including Islamic music artists like Abida Parveen. Look. It’s fine to have an activist dislike for Coca Cola as a corporation, but in this case it’s really a silly thing to inject into the conversation.

It doesn’t inherently have to be oppressive in theory. But sometimes in practice it can be. Often it can be. As a chosen, private expression of one’s personal interpretation of Islamic concepts of modesty that women themselves take care of and take personal responsibility and ownership of as individuals for themselves alone, then it’s a perfectly reasonable thing. There’s nothing oppressive about that at all. But when it becomes the rule, the norm, something that is promoted as the answer for modest Islamic women’s dress, as the minimal standard of public decency; when it becomes legislated and enforced as the law of the land; when men promote it and talk about it more than women do, and use it to call out women who don’t follow the mold; when women dress generally modestly but don’t wear a scarf get called out as if they are walking around naked; when it becomes politicized into some sort of symbol that an individual woman is either with us or against us, then it crosses over into something that is used to control women. And I can’t help notice that in practice it’s way more of the second than it is the first. Listen. Don’t misunderstand here. There is a general broad Islamic concept of modesty. Let’s defend and teach that as a broad concept for men and women. And if an individual lady sincerely of herself wants to cover her head as her own expression of that, good for her, and I don’t think anyone should try to take that away from her. But at the same time, let’s be reasonable and accept that there’s legitimate room for others to interpret this concept differently, and leave alone those women who do read it differently. And let’s get away from this approach that sucks the life out the concept by trying to push or enforce the strictest interpretations of it.

I think you need to step it back a bit here.

Oh, if you want to broaden the scope and look at the failures of authority all the way up, I can talk all year about that. It’s all broken on a fractal level. For sure.

Interesting. Thank you very much. So even in this case where the act was intentional with the direct intention to cause the pregnancy to be lost, it’s still conceptualized in a bodily harm framework rather than in a “homicide” type of framework. As if the fetus is a part of the father’s body belonging to him that is cut off. Sorry, I don’t mean to make you my hadith librarian here, but just for reference and comparison, are there any texts you know of which talk about the scenario where a born child is killed from the actions of someone, whether intentional or accidental? How was that sort of situation handled?

@SoRoUsH I’m curious. So this was a scenario where someone did something to the woman, and as a side effect of that, a miscarriage accidentally happened. Do you know of any texts that talk about more directly comparable scenarios, like a woman intentionally took some sort of folk herbal abortifacient concoction and a miscarriage happened?

So, just picking through this with my slow Arabic reading skills here. I see “ar-rajuli yadribu al-mara’at fa tat’rah’u”—“A man struck a woman so she dropped (miscarried).” So the context is a man did violence to a woman causing miscarriage? Then it looks like it talks about diyyah at different stages. And then looks at what each stage looks like in terms of level of development and markers basically.

Ok. Alright. That’s probably somewhere in volume 7 then. Thanks.

What?! No. Where did you get that idea? The link, I’m just giving, as an aside, a possible or conceivable (no pun intended) natural significance of the 120 day mark. The 120 day or 4 month figure is directly from the hadith sources.