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In the Name of God بسم الله

rotten_coconut

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    rotten_coconut got a reaction from AmirioTheMuzzy in 12 Imams A.s Mentioned By Name! Saheeh!   
    Yes, bro Qa'im posted it some time ago. If this is authentic, looks like it's also kept in close circle:
    Ahmad b. Ziyad b. Ja`far al-Hamadani رضي الله عنه narrated. He said: `Ali b. Ibrahim narrated from his father from `Abd as-Salam b. Salih al-Harawi. He said: I heard De`bel b. `Ali al-Khaza`i say:
    I recited my poem to my Master, `Ali b. Musa ar-Rida عليه السلام, the beginning of which is:
    Schools of verses empty of recitations
    And the House of Revelation horrendously empty
    So when I reached the end of these words,
    The appearance of an Imam who will definitely appear
    And stand by the name of Allah and His blessings
    He will make distinction between all rights and wrongs
    And will proffer requital for charities and malevolence
    [imam] ar-Rida عليه السلام cried a rigid cry, then he lifted his head and said to me: O Khaza`I, the Holy Spirit has placed these two verses on your tongue. Do you know who this Imam is? And when he will rise? So I said: No, my Master, I have only heard that an Imam will appear from you (i.e. the Ahl al-Bayt) who will purify the Earth from corruption and fill it with justice as it would be fraught with injustice. So he said: O De`bel, the Imam after me is my son Muhammad, and after Muhammad is his son `Ali and after `Ali is his son al-Hasan and after al-Hasan is his son, the Proof (hujja), the Qa’im, awaited in his occultation and obeyed in his appearance. If there remains in this world but one day, Allah would lengthen that day until he appears and fills the Earth with justice as it would be fraught with injustice. But when? The report regarding the timing has been narrated from my father from his father from their forefathers from `Ali عليه السلام that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله was asked: O Messenger of Allah, when will the Qa’im appear from your offspring? So he said: Its [time is] like the proverb of the Hour, about which is said, “He alone will manifest it at its proper time. It is heavy in the heavens and the Earth. It shall not come upon you except unexpectedly.” (7:187)
  2. Like
    rotten_coconut got a reaction from Faruk in Abdullah Ibn Masud   
    Then again, if the mushaf of ibn Mas`ud didn't contain al-Falaq & an-Nas, we can safely ignore this mushaf either as pseudepigraph or as an corrupted mushaf. Our hadith stated clearly that the Aimmah (as) recited both al-Falaq & an-Nas in a mandatory salat (Maghrib).
    Moreover, we have ahadith stating that even ibn Mas`ud must follow the qira'ah of Ubayy.
  3. Like
    rotten_coconut got a reaction from Ibn Al-Ja'abi in Summary of the 7 Early Ecumenical Councils in Christianity   
    For those who's interested, here's the summary of the 7 early (and also the most famous) ecumenical Councils in Christianity that I've created some time ago. In here, you can see the gradual process of how orthodoxy was stipulated. Sorry if it seems to be abbreviated a lot since it's initially made to be a personal note.
    Another note is that the councils actually discussed other things apart from what mentioned below. I've only mentioned some here since the note was made initially to understand how the councils shaped the orthodoxy of Christianity in the area of theology:
     
     
  4. Like
    rotten_coconut reacted to Islamic Salvation in A Comprehensive Compilation of Reliable Narrations   
    3.156. - 3.157. Muhammad b. Muslim al-Thaqafi and Abu Kurayba
    https://sites.google.com/site/mujamalahadith/vol1/book-of-narrators/muhammad-b-muslim-al-thaqafi-and-abu-kurayba
     
    [1/175] رجال الكشي: محمد بن قولويه، عن سعد بن عبد الله بن أبي خلف القمي، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن عبد الله بن محمد الحجال، عن العلاء بن رزين، عن عبد الله بن أبي يعفور قال: قلت لأبي عبد الله عليه السلام: إنه ليس كل ساعة ألقاك و لا يمكن القدوم، و يجي‏ء الرجل من أصحابنا فيسألني و ليس عندي كلما يسألني عنه، قال: فما يمنعك من محمد بن مسلم الثقفي فإنه قد سمع من أبي و كان عنده وجيها
    [1/175] Rijal al-Kashshi: Muhammad b. Qulawayh from Sa’d b. Abdallah b. Abi Khalaf al-Qummi from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Isa from Abdallah b. Muhammad al-Hajjal from al-Ala b. Razin from Abdallah b. Abi Ya’fur who said: I said to Abi Abdillah عليه السلام - I cannot meet you at all times and it may be impossible to travel [to reach you], it happens that a man from among our companions comes and asks me - but I do not have something [an answer] for everything that he asks me about [what should I do?]. He عليه السلام said: What prevents you from [going to] Muhammad b. Muslim al-Thaqafi - for he had heard [narrations] from my father and had a most favorable position with him.
    NOTES:
    Even a highly knowledgeable companion like Abdallah b. Abi Ya’fur is referred to Muhammad b. Muslim in cases where his knowledge falls short. This should be enough to get an estimate of the status of Muhammad b. Muslim. 
     
    [2/176] رجال الكشي: حمدويه بن نصير، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن الحسن بن علي بن فضال، عن عبد الله بن بكير، عن زرارة قال: شهد أبو كريبة الأزدي و محمد بن مسلم الثقفي عند شريك بشهادة و هو قاض، فنظر في وجوههما مليا ثم قال جعفريان فاطميان فبكيا، فقال لهما ما يبكيكما قالا له نسبتنا إلى أقوام لا يرضون بأمثالنا أن يكونوا من إخوانهم لما يرون من سخف ورعنا، و نسبتنا إلى رجل لا يرضى بأمثالنا أن يكونوا من شيعته، فإن تفضل و قبلنا فله المن علينا و الفضل، فتبسم شريك، ثم قال إذا كانت الرجال فلتكن أمثالكم، يا وليد أجزهما هذه المرة (ولا یعودا ثانیة) قال فحججنا فخبرنا أبا عبد الله عليه السلام بالقصة فقال ما لشريك شركه الله يوم القيامة بشراكين من نار
    [2/176] Rijal al-Kashshi: Hamduwayh b. Nusayr from Muhammad b. Isa from al-Hasan b. Ali b. Fadhal from Abdallah b. Bukayr from Zurara who said: Abu Kurayba al-Azdi and Muhammad b. Muslim al-Thaqafi gave witness in the presence of Sharik while he was the judge [of Kufa]. He [Sharik] looked at their faces for a moment and then said: two Ja’faris and Fatimis! so they began crying. He said: What makes you cry? They said to him: You have attributed us to a group who are not pleased with the likes of us being counted among their fellows because of what they see of the deficiency in our worship, and you have attributed us to a man [Ja’far] who is not pleased that the likes of us be associated among his Shia [followers], but if he [Ja’far] does us a favour and accepts us then he has our gratitude. Sharik smiled and said: If there be men then they should be like you. O slave - permit them this time around [accept their witness] but not next time. They said: We made the pilgrimage [in its season] and recounted to Abu Abdillah عليه السلام the incident so he said: What is with Sharik!? May Allah partner him up [lace him up] with two strips [lit. sandal laces] of fire on the day of judgement.
    NOTES:
    Sharik wanted to refuse their witness because of their being Ja’faris and Fatimis.
    شركه الله يوم القيامة بشراكين من نار  
    This is a word play (pun) by the Imam from the word Sharik --> Sharrakahu llahu yawm al-qiayama bi Shirakayni min nar.
    Excessive righteousness is what defined the Shia. Even the likes of Muhammad b. Muslim feel deficient to be called with the label, yet we take it lightly.
  5. Like
    rotten_coconut got a reaction from Ashvazdanghe in Jesus In Shia Hadith   
    Thank you, but I'm interested more in the reliable ahadith to know what happened with `Isa (as) & unfortunately in the al-islam article, we don't know the grading of the ahadith.Is there anyone who has collected the reliable ahadith on this episode?
    While it's more logical for me that Judaism expecting two Messiahs (one priestly & one kingly as the Judaism dual leadership system of king-priest pair sucj as Musa (as) & Harun (as)), do we have a proof that apart from the Qumran community in the Dead Sea, there's another Jewish sect expecting 2 Messiahs? The prevailing belief of the Judaism this day seems to point out to a single Messiah fulfilling these 2 roles at the same time.
  6. Like
    rotten_coconut got a reaction from Kazemi in 12 Imams A.s Mentioned By Name! Saheeh!   
    Yes, bro Qa'im posted it some time ago. If this is authentic, looks like it's also kept in close circle:
    Ahmad b. Ziyad b. Ja`far al-Hamadani رضي الله عنه narrated. He said: `Ali b. Ibrahim narrated from his father from `Abd as-Salam b. Salih al-Harawi. He said: I heard De`bel b. `Ali al-Khaza`i say:
    I recited my poem to my Master, `Ali b. Musa ar-Rida عليه السلام, the beginning of which is:
    Schools of verses empty of recitations
    And the House of Revelation horrendously empty
    So when I reached the end of these words,
    The appearance of an Imam who will definitely appear
    And stand by the name of Allah and His blessings
    He will make distinction between all rights and wrongs
    And will proffer requital for charities and malevolence
    [imam] ar-Rida عليه السلام cried a rigid cry, then he lifted his head and said to me: O Khaza`I, the Holy Spirit has placed these two verses on your tongue. Do you know who this Imam is? And when he will rise? So I said: No, my Master, I have only heard that an Imam will appear from you (i.e. the Ahl al-Bayt) who will purify the Earth from corruption and fill it with justice as it would be fraught with injustice. So he said: O De`bel, the Imam after me is my son Muhammad, and after Muhammad is his son `Ali and after `Ali is his son al-Hasan and after al-Hasan is his son, the Proof (hujja), the Qa’im, awaited in his occultation and obeyed in his appearance. If there remains in this world but one day, Allah would lengthen that day until he appears and fills the Earth with justice as it would be fraught with injustice. But when? The report regarding the timing has been narrated from my father from his father from their forefathers from `Ali عليه السلام that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله was asked: O Messenger of Allah, when will the Qa’im appear from your offspring? So he said: Its [time is] like the proverb of the Hour, about which is said, “He alone will manifest it at its proper time. It is heavy in the heavens and the Earth. It shall not come upon you except unexpectedly.” (7:187)
  7. Like
    rotten_coconut got a reaction from just a muslim in Validating Hadith Sources   
    Salam,
    Honestly, it doesn't really answer to the view of the primary (or even sole) use of rijal in proving hadith authenticity:
    - Do we have examples when a hadith is considered strong even though the narrators are weak & when a hadith is considered weak even though the narrators are strong? How can you ensure that this is the case?
    - How do you ensure that an allegation of contradiction to Al-Qur'an is truly a contradiction which can't be harmonized or specific case as an exception of general rule outlined in the Qur'an? How do you even sure that your interpretation of the Quran itself is correct?
    - Can you provide an hadith which are rejected because it contradicts 'aql, even though the rijal are OK & no proof that it contradicts the Al-Quran?
  8. Like
    rotten_coconut got a reaction from wolverine in Congrats Veteran Members!   
    Thank you! Guess I have to post more often now
  9. Like
    rotten_coconut got a reaction from Anonymous in Congrats Veteran Members!   
    Thank you! Guess I have to post more often now
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    rotten_coconut got a reaction from ShiaChat Mod in Congrats Veteran Members!   
    Thank you! Guess I have to post more often now
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    rotten_coconut got a reaction from Hameedeh in Congrats Veteran Members!   
    Thank you! Guess I have to post more often now
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    rotten_coconut got a reaction from Heavenly_Silk in Congrats Veteran Members!   
    Thank you! Guess I have to post more often now
  13. Like
    rotten_coconut reacted to Islamic Salvation in A Comprehensive Compilation of Reliable Narrations   
    2.30. – 2.32. Ja`far b. Isa, Salih and Abu al-Asad
    https://sites.google.com/site/mujamalahadith/vol1/book-of-narrators/jafar-b-isa-salih-and-abu-al-asad
     
    [1/139] رجال الكشي: حمدويه و إبراهيم، عن أبو جعفر محمد بن عيسى العبيدي قال: سمعت هشام بن إبراهيم الختلي و هو المشرقي يقول: استأذنت لجماعة على أبي الحسن عليه السلام في سنة تسع و تسعين و مائة، فحضروا و حضرنا ستة عشر رجلا على باب أبي الحسن الثاني عليه السلام، فخرج مسافر فقال: يتخلف آل يقطين و يونس بن عبد الرحمن و يدخل الباقون رجلا رجلا، فلما دخلوا و خرجوا خرج مسافر فدعاني و موسى و جعفر بن عيسى و يونس، فأدخلنا جميعا عليه و العباس قائم ناحية بلا حذاء و لا رداء، و ذلك في سنة أبي السرايا، فسلمنا ثم أمرنا بالجلوس، فلما جلسنا، قال له جعفر بن عيسى: يا سيدي نشكو إلى الله و إليك ما نحن فيه من أصحابنا فقال: و ما أنتم فيه منهم فقال جعفر: هم و الله يا سيدي يزندقونا و يكفرونا و يتبرءون منا، فقال: هكذا كان أصحاب علي بن الحسين و محمد بن علي و أصحاب جعفر و موسى صلوات الله عليهم و لقد كان أصحاب زرارة يكفرون غيرهم، و كذلك غيرهم كانوا يكفرونهم، فقلت له: يا سيدي نستعين بك على هذين الشيخين يونس و هشام و هما حاضران، فهما أدبانا و علمانا الكلام، فإن كنا يا سيدي على هدى ففزنا، و إن كنا على ضلال فهذان أضلانا، فمرنا نتركه و نتوب إلى الله منه، يا سيدي فادعنا إلى دين الله نتبعك فقال عليه السلام: ما أعلمكم إلا على هدى، جزاكم الله عن الصحبة القديمة و الحديثة خيرا، فتأولوا القديمة علي بن يقطين، و الحديثة خدمتنا له، و الله أعلم. فقال جعفر: جعلت فداك، إن صالحا و أبا الأسد ختن علي بن يقطين حكيا عنك أنهما حكيا لك شيئا من كلامنا فقلت لهما ما لكما و الكلام يثنيكم إلى الزندقة فقال عليه السلام: ما قلت لهما ذلك، أنا قلت ذلك و الله ما قلت لهما. و قال يونس: جعلت فداك إنهم يزعمون أنا زنادقة و كان جالسا إلى جنب رجل و هو متربع رجلا على رجل و هو ساعة بعد ساعة يمرغ وجهه و خديه على باطن قدمه الأيسر، فقال له: أ رأيتك لو كنت زنديقا فقال لك هو مؤمن ما كان ينفعك من ذلك، و لو كنت مؤمنا فقالوا هو زنديق ما كان يضرك منه. و قال المشرقي له: و الله ما تقول إلا ما يقول آباؤك عليهم السلام عندنا كتاب سميناه كتاب الجامع فيه جميع ما تكلم الناس فيه عن آبائك عليهم السلام و إنما نتكلم عليه، فقال له جعفر شبيها بهذا الكلام، فأقبل على جعفر فقال: فإذا كنتم لا تتكلمون بكلام آبائي عليهم السلام فبكلام أبي بكر و عمر تريدون أن تتكلموا؟
    [1/139] Rijal al-Kashshi: Hamduwayh and Ibrahim from Abu Ja’far Muhammad b. Isa al-Ubaydi who said: I heard Hisham b. Ibrahim al-Khatli - and he is al-Mashraqi - say: I sought permission for a number of people to enter upon Abi al-Hasan عليه السلام in the year one hundred and ninety nine, so they attended and we attended, a total of sixteen men, waiting at the door of Abi al-Hasan the Second عليه السلام. Then Musafir (a Mawla of al-Ridha) came out and said: The family of Yaqtin and Yunus b. Abd al-Rahman should wait while the rest should enter one by one, so when they had all entered and exited, Musafir came out and called me, Musa [b. Salih], Ja`far b. Isa and Yunus, and allowed us to enter to meet him, and al-Abbas (another Mawla of al-Ridha) was stood in a corner without footwear and without having worn a cloak, and that was in the year of Abu al-Saraya (i.e. his coming out in revolt). 
    He (al-Ridha) saluted us and ordered us to sit, so when we had sat - Ja`far b. Isa said to him: O my master - we complain to Allah and to you in regards what we are in from our companions [the treatment which we receive from them]. He said: and what are you in from them? Ja`far said: they - by Allah - denounce us as heretics, deem us disbelievers, and disassociate from us, so he (i.e. the Imam) said: like this were the companions of Ali b. al-Husayn, Muhammad b. Ali, Ja`far and Musa عليهم السلام, for the companions of Zurara used to consider as disbelievers all the others (apart from themselves), and likewise, the others used to consider them as disbelievers. 
    I said to him: O my master - we seek assistance in you from these two old men, Yunus and Hisham, and they are both present, for they are the ones who have trained us and taught us theological disputation, so if we are - O my master - upon guidance, then we have succeeded, and if we are upon misguidance, then these two are the ones who have misguided us, so order us to leave it (i.e. Kalam) and turn to Allah in repentance from it, O my master - call us to the religion of Allah, for we will follow you, so he عليه السلام said: I do not know you except as being upon guidance, may Allah recompense you goodly for the former companionship and for the recent one. [They interpreted the former companionship to mean Ali b. Yaqtin, and the recent one to be our service to him, and Allah knows better].
    Then Ja`far said: may I be made your ransom, Salih and Aba al-Asad the son-in-law of Ali b. Yaqtin relate from you that they quoted to you some of our theological arguments - so you said to them both: what is with you and theological disputations [what do you have to do with it?] - it is dragging you to heresy! so he عليه السلام said: I did not say that to them! did I say that?! - by Allah - I did not say that to them! 
    Yunus said: may I be made your ransom - they assert that we are heretics, and he was sat beside a man, and he had placed one leg over the other (was seated cross legged), and time after time (every now and then) was rolling his face and his two cheeks upon the interior of his left foot, so he (al-Ridha) said to him: assume that you were indeed a heretic and they say about you - he is a believer - what would that benefit you? and if you were a believer and they said: he is a heretic - what would that harm you? 
    al-Mashriqi said to him: by Allah - you do not speak except that which was also spoken by your forefathers. We do have a book, we have called it the ‘comprehensive book’ (Kitab al-Jami), in it is all that which the people have spoken about [what they have disputed with each other in regards theology] on the authority of your forefathers [with the decisive judgment from the `Aimma], and we debate based on it, and Ja`far said to him something similar to this, so he turned to Ja`far and said: if you were not speaking by [in accordance with] the words of my forefathers then with the words of Abi Bakr and Umar do you want to speak!?
    NOTES:
    Alı b. Yaqtın was a high ranking Shı‘ite official of the early ‘Abbasid administration. Son of a chief organizer of the ‘Abbasid revolution, he was born in 124 in Kufa and appointed in 168 by the caliph Mahdı as his chief of staff and in 169 by the caliph Hadı as the keeper of the caliphal seal. He remained a high ranking official of the ‘Abbasid government for the rest of his life until his death in 182 whereupon the crown prince Muhammad al-Amin led the funeral prayer. He was a loyal follower of, and a fairly prolific transmitter from, Musa al-Kazim, and even secretly acted as his financial agent.
    Yaqtin b. Musa (d. 185), his father, was a Persian client of the Banu Asad, his name (meaning pumpkin) must be an Arabicization of Abu Muslim`s appellation for him, yak din ([man of] one religion), designed to attest the sincerity and pure monotheism of a new convert. He was a committed veteran of the ‘Abbasid cause, so much so that his son, ‘Alı, worried that a curse possibly uttered by Ja‘far al-Sadiq upon those who brought the ‘Abbasids to power may fall on Yaqtın and his descendants.
    Ali b. Yaqtin was allowed to work for the tyrannical rulers by the Imam, in Taqiyya, so that he could assist the believers and ward of danger from them. The descendants of Ali b. Yaqtin and the wider family became very strong followers of the Imams. They produced prolific narrators, chief among them, Muhammad b. Isa b. Ubayd b. Yaqtin. An even more important honour for the family is that they were the patrons of a great scholar like Yunus b. Abd al-Rahman [the foremost student of Ali b. Yaqtin’s friend Hisham b. al-Hakam].
    As al-Najashi says: يونس بن عبد الرحمان، مولى علي بن يقطين بن موسى
    What this narration shows is that the Al Yaqtin were firm proponents of Kalam, under the leadership of Hisham b. al-Hakam and Yunus b. Abd al-Rahman. This caused a backlash from the traditionist faction which did not see a need for employing any degree of independent reasoning even to defend the faith. This is why Yunus and Hisham before him came under attack in Qum. They were deemed as outright heretics. Such a narration was used by the Al Yaqtin as a defense for their position and to claim the sanction of the Imam for what they were doing. There is some evidence that the `Aimma had a very tolerant attitude to all factions [apart from the Ghulat], because different people were on different levels of insight. Thus, the Imam points out that this rivalry was common to the Ashab of several Imams including those who supported Zurara’s position on various theological points and those who were against. This reached such a level that they made Takfir against each other!  
  14. Like
    rotten_coconut got a reaction from Reza in Congrats Veteran Members!   
    Thank you! Guess I have to post more often now
  15. Like
    rotten_coconut reacted to Reza in Congrats Veteran Members!   
    BIG ANNOUNCEMENT:
    A new second tier of Veterans has been inducted! This will be the last new group for a while, so feel honored! The rest of you will have to wait a while. 
    Updated criteria for Veteran Status:
    1. An Advanced member in good standing who joined ShiaChat before Dec. 31, 2010.
    2. Has had a relatively significant contribution to the site during their tenure. 
    3. Is still presently active, or has at least recently accessed the site. Please post every so often, so members remember you are here!
    Let's welcome:
    @abbas110 @Abu Tufayl @abuzahra @Ali_Hussain @AliSaleh @Bakir @BaqiyatullahY @Basim Ali @beardedbaker @Christianlady @doobybrother @Fatima NMA @Fink @Hassan- @Inconsolable @ireallywannaknow @Last Chance @Lion of Shia @Murteza @Noah- @power @Quisant @RiseOrDie @Rohani @rotten_coconut @Ruq @Saintly_Jinn23 @Syed Demanding @Syed.Dynasty @Wise Muslim @ZhugeLiang
  16. Like
    rotten_coconut reacted to Hannibal in Response To Narrator Criticism In Sunni Rijal   
    Salams,
     
    I think people should be reminded here that this is not a rijal debate on who is reliable and who is not or "my system of rijal is better than yours". It is a debate about the epistemological status of evaluating narrators namely what are the primary factors that contribute to accepting or rejecting a narrator? Is it just memory truthfulness? Do we have objective access to these? 
     
    The answer is not very much and here is a quick summary of what has been said so far in answering why this is not the case. The claim that is being made here is that one of the most significant determinants of a narrator's credibility  - if not the most important - were the sectarian biases of the evaluators themselves namely that much of the assessment (although not in totality) of whether or not a narrator was reliable, trustworthy, fabricator, liar etc. depended on the doctrinal beliefs that a narrator held and whether or not it conflicted or at least posed a significant problem to the prejudices of the evaluator.
     
    Does this mean that all people who held "unorthodox" beliefs or practices were rejected? No because this would deplete most of the hadith corpus that Sunnis today for example rely on. So a more systematic grading of unorthodoxy was established. 
     
    First, there were different degrees of Shi'ism which spanned from thinking Ali was greater than Uthman to thinking that Ali was better than the Shaykhayn (Abu Bakr and Umar) up to outright rejection of the Shaykhayn (this was usually called Rafd). The second step was to see whether or not this individual in question proselytized his beliefs (if he did, alarm bells would go off) and the final step was whether or not the tradition being narrated agreed with the biases of the evaluator or not. This is where ideas of accepting narrator X's narrations on hajj are accepted but not his narrations on fasting because the latter don't agree with our a prior assumptions of how fasting should be like.
     
     
    So as you can see, the systematic mechanism of filtration in rijal evaluation was heavily based on sectarian biases (both Shi'i and Sunni). This is not a conspiracy, this is a fact acknowledged by the evaluators themselves. 
     
    Please close attention to what Dar wrote previously
     
     
     
    Did this kind of step by step filtration always happen? No, but this was the pattern. Just because there are some rare minor examples that don't neatly fit the above does not mean that the pattern and general rule did not exist. Exceptions prove the Rule. 
     
    But does this mean that there are no other means of objectively (or at least close to it) knowing what the Prophet (s) or Imams taught? No as there are alternative epistemological means using chains of transmission or asaaneed to establish that .. but I won't go into that as it is irrelevant here. 
  17. Like
    rotten_coconut reacted to Abu Tufayl in Response To Narrator Criticism In Sunni Rijal   
    (bismillah)
     
    it's sad that I have to continually copy and paste things from just two pages ago...
     
    As to the point about Ahmad and the destruction of that book. First of all, Ahmad's method and bias is already been clarified by all we presented in the original post. As well as Ibn Mu`een's qa'id of taktheeb on any person who attacks a Sahabi, or the fact that there were thousands of rawafidh that lived in that time, many people have books of mataa`in recorded in their name - our sect exists and has this type of narratives and, yet, there's so little left of it. I wonder where it all went?
     
  18. Like
    rotten_coconut reacted to Abu Tufayl in Response To Narrator Criticism In Sunni Rijal   
    (bismillah)
     
     
     
    I think continuing this discussion is useless. You don’t seem to understand that citing narrations as fabrications and manakeer is the what the issue revolves around and that there is a consistent pattern that the Shia Rawafidh were accused based on content that related to Ahl al-Bayt عليهم السلام. Ibn Hibban authenticating a narration in praise of `Ali عليه السلام in one place does not mean he considered other narrations in his praise to be unproblematic, especially if the signification of the riwayah is tashayyu` - like Wilayah in the one about his right being like that of the father. If it was not the content of these narrations that were so problematic for Ibn Hibban, why quote them as fabrications?
     
     
    You see, proto-Sunni scholars accepting narrations about Ahl al-Bayt عليهم السلام does not man they were unbiased. It is quite easy to accept such narrations - which would not show signification to Imami Tashayyu` - when you’re only accepting the narrations of non-Rafidhi Batriyya or “Ghaali” Shia [or even Rawafidh for that matter] who do not proselytize [meaning they didn’t narrate that stuff to you]. Even going out of their way and weakening hadith in praise of Shaykhayn or Mu`awiya does not change anything. The issue is istiqraa’a and it being used against what they did not believe - their using it against what supported their doctrine is irrelevant as these main doctrines were already established and still prevail. So they did not need to accept all praises of Abu Bakr and `Umar in order for their sectarian competition to succeed, but they needed to do away with narrations that overtly tell the Shia Rafidhi narrative. No, they did not need to do away with all praises of Ahl al-Bayt عليهم السلام because not all of them explicitly signify the Imami Shia narrative necessarily.
     
    You see, the issue is as we’ve stated previously that these scholars came together and already agreed upon what is “truth” and then went on their way playing jarh & ta`deel and dirayah and whatever contradicted this agreed upon “truth” was instantly suspicious and grounds for denial. 
     
    I really urge you go back and re-read the entire original post(s) to see the actual argument being made and the issue being focused on.
     
    Also, maybe then you wouldn’t make the following mistake:
     
     
     
     
    We said in the original post the following after Ibn Hajr’s elaboration on these 3 views:
     
     
     
     
    So, the majority view of the Ahl al-Hadith and “Arbab” of Jarh and Ta`deel are of group 3 which is being very guilty of the bias we are talking about. Opinion #2 is over all irrelevant to the endeavor on both sides. Let’s not forget the burning of narrations against Sahaba and people changing their mind on a narrator due to such things.
     
    You seem too focused on the examples and not looking at the general pattern being laid out. Also, you’re very naive to think socio-politics has no bearing on any of this.
     
    في أمان الله وسلام على من اتبع الهدى
  19. Like
    rotten_coconut reacted to Abu Tufayl in Response To Narrator Criticism In Sunni Rijal   
    (bismillah)
    الحمد لله ربّ العالمين 
    اللهم صلّ على محمد وآل محمد
     
    These “refutations” are about where I thought they would be in terms of academic rigor and reflection. The problem with these responses, firstly, is that they don’t quite understand the hypothesis of Shaykh al-Sanad حفظه الله regarding the biases of Sunni Rijal Scholars. To be guilty of what al-Sanad is claiming, the examples do not require complete, without exception conformation. What is important though is that the narrators with the “extreme tashayyu” and “attacks on Sahaba” in their narration content were accused and filtered away. The general pattern was shown by the previous posts, which I hope all the readers go back to review and take notice how these “replies” do not even address the core issues.
     
    The core issue here is - as we have repeated - that the scale in narrator praise and criticism was narration content and not their righteousness as a servant of God. The fact of the matter is that these sayings about, for example, `Abbas b. Bakkar do not stem from the direct testimony of his contemporary associates who knew and met him that was then passed down to these scholars of jarh and ta`deel whereby they affirmed his weakness or trustworthiness [the theory of Sayyid al-Khui رحمه الله of الشهادة الحسية المنقولة]. Their judgement hammer was narration content, foremost. Comparison of chains and content by the other students is still what? Assessing narration content, which is inherently controlled by that scholar’s doctrinal views.
     
    So, regardless of Ahmad b. Hanbal and others giving tawtheeq to a number of Shia, it does not absolve them of their biases against those who report rafdh and personality flaws of companions [this is putting it lightly]. Never mind that this is all ioring the fact that there were different levels of Tashayyu` that existed in that era and that what is intended by these scholars when they say someone was a Shia can have several meanings from simple preference of `Ali over `Uthman all the way to rejection of Shaykhayn - with all that in between.
     
    I will also like to point out that the shifting dynamics proto-Sunni orthodoxy on issues can affect the comments of these scholars during istiqraa’. For example, whether or not Abu Bakr was actually pointed by the Holy Prophet [sawa] in Sunni doctrine is something that comes and goes. First it was there was no successor and the Umma decided, next year it was he was specifically appointed, etc.
     
     
     
     
    Well, one, I think you need a lesson in historiography and analysis [in general]. Second, it sounds like you are agreeing with the fact that Bani Ummayya is the reason for the grand status of Shaykhayn and Mu`awiya in your sect. At least some progress…
     
    Anyway, this little bit ignores the continuation of history… As if there was not other empire after Bani Umayya who called for support and power by showcasing their tribal and blood relationship to al-Nabi al-Akram صلى الله عليه وآله and Imam `Ali عليه السلام. It’s not like they were raising black flags and claiming that khilafa was the right of Ahl al-Bayt [as] and that this new empire was also “Ahl al-Bayt.” [re: Abbasid Empire]. This socio-political dimension surrounds both why everything about Shaykhayn and Mu`awiya is not “sahih” and why some praises of Imam `Ali ع and Aali Muhammad ص are authentic, in addition to what I have already mentioned in the previous posts.
     
    The Abbasis based their legitimacy as being representatives of Ali [a] who they believed to be the wasi well into the time of Harun al-Rashidi and that there were periods during Abbasid rule where the cursing of Muawiyah was sanctioned by the caliphs. So, the presence of pro-Ahl al-Bayt material in Sunni books is not a product of objectivity. Rather, it is a product of their adhering to their doctrines on leadership.
     
    The majority - if not everything - was ignored and not paid attention to in this response, so here’s the link to my original reply:
    http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235015707-response-to-narrator-criticism-in-sunni-rijal/?p=2615242
     
    I’m going to copy and paste a few sections here that I believe need to re-read and emphasized:
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
    سبحان ربك رب العزة عما يصفون وسلام على المرسلين والحمد لله رب العالمين
    اللهم صل على محمد وآله وسلام على من اتبع الهدى
    في أمان الله
  20. Like
    rotten_coconut reacted to Abu Tufayl in Response To Narrator Criticism In Sunni Rijal   
    (bismillah)
     
    Our Opponent said: Dar from SC quoted a narration that Al-Thahabi quoted today in an attempt to show the bias of Sunni scholars...Al-Thahabi said: This story is disconnected, and Ma'amar was no fool for this to spread onto him. (Abdulrazaq's biography in Al-Siyar)
     
    We Say: The point was al-Zhahabi's extremely [un]sophisticated comment regarding the falsification of this hadith. His heart is such an academic, objective source, isn't it? There's more of these, mind you. The story regarding the Rafidi nephew is just icing on the cake. I think the bias of Sunni scholars was shown well enough in the earlier posts.
     
    في أمان الله
  21. Like
    rotten_coconut reacted to Abu Tufayl in Response To Narrator Criticism In Sunni Rijal   
    I have misread this, I believe. He is trying to say that what I have argued and what al-Sanad حفظه الله have argued are not the same. This is an unimportant point (and untrue). To understand al-Sanad حفظه الله's statements of exaggeration (a common arabic literary device) as mutlaq is illogical (especially in the introduction). His point was that the Sunni system of narrator criticism is controlled by their kalām and doctrine and not about truthfulness and accuracy absolutely. This phenomena is especially true when it came to the Shi`ah and Rafida while the Nasiba were not scrutinized with the same intensity, if at all. Yes, I have elaborated and expanded the arguments beyond what al-Sanad has said. However, his discussion was aimed to show that the Sunni system is not objective, but very biased due to their criticisms stemming from their `aqida and kalam. The point about Nasb [opposing the Shia/supporting nawasib is a form of nasb] against these people is from a fascist Imami perspective as this discussion's audience were Imami students.
     
    The Arabic:
     
    وقد ذكرنا أمثلة ونماذج كثيرة من أن مستنداتهم في الجرح والتعديل إنما هي قواعد ومبان كلامية يستند إليها الرجالي في تقييم ومحاكمة الرواي من خلال مذهبه الإعتقادي بتوسط مضامين الروايات التي يرويها أو مشايخ الرواي الذين ينتمي إليهم في التتلمذ والرواية
     
     
     
     
    المحصل: أن الجرح والتعديل خاضع الإجتهاد صاحب الجرح والتعديل الخبير الرجالي حسب ما يتبنى من المسائل الإعتقادية فنتائجه التي يبرزها ليست إلا فتاواه وإجتهاداته وليست في غالب الأمر مستندة إلى السلوك الأخلاقي للراوي
     
    في أمان الله
  22. Like
    rotten_coconut reacted to Hannibal in Response To Narrator Criticism In Sunni Rijal   
    I would expand your point by saying that the Imami Shi'a often dealt with people of their own sect (ghulat) or close to it (like the Waqifiya) more harshly than they did with proto-Sunnis narrators. There are of course exceptions at times, but this is the general pattern I have observed.
     
    On the other hand, Sunnis did not do the same with the nasibis of their own sect. So although the Shia system of jarh and ta'dil was not objective and was self-serving and no one can dispute it, it seems to be less dogmatic and less self-serving than that of the Sunnis, at least on this particular issue that we are discussing.
     
    But I know this is beyond the point of the post, so I'll leave it at that.
     
    The main point is that Farid claimed that what Sanad said was false and was a baseless theory. It's a bit ironic that Farid seems to be acknowledging it now and playing the "you too" card :D
     
    Again, great work Dar.
     
    ---

    I would also like to add this. There has been a claim going around that some how the Sunni rijal system is objective self-critiquing enterprise. Dar's post showed otherwise, that it was far from being so. It was not interested with truth or history, but more interested in being self-serving. 
     
    If the Shia did this, it doesn't mean that the above premise is false. So it's about time that some of our so-called Imamis woke up and smell the coffee and stop being fascinated by an illusion.
  23. Like
    rotten_coconut reacted to Abu Tufayl in Response To Narrator Criticism In Sunni Rijal   
    (bismillah)
     
    Our Opponent said:  I'll respond later and demonstrate how the views that you are sharing are far from your shaikhs views.
     
    We Say: I actually do not care if the concept of "deviant belief" is invoked my our scholarship in rijāl. I am aware of Sh. al-Tūsī's statements in al-`Udda where he says the narration of the people holding deviant doctrines (Fathiyya, Wāqifiyya, `Āmmiyya, etc.) is deferred away from in cases of conflict with "tariīq al-haqq." Or al-Sadūq not giving fatwā by the narration of some of the Wāqifa. Even the era of al-`Allam al-Hillī where they rejected any and all non-Imamis (with some exceptions like Ashāb al-Ijmā`). I'd also notice that these are in the cases fiqh and ahkām.
     
    The only people whose books and narrations were destroyed (arguably), and they were being accused harshly based on beliefs, where the "ghullāt," but they are "extremists" from our own sect. Besides, many and most scholars today will disagree and criticize these accusations. Especially the accusations and istiqrā' from al-Fadl b. Shāzhān, Ibn al-Ghadā'irī, and al-Najāshī.
     
    The "you too" (tu quoque) fallacy does not solve the issue hand nor absolve your scholars from their bias and sectarianism. I am not arguing, at this moment, that our rijāl system is better or unbiased. That is irrelevant to the discussion. The enterprise of rijāl, jarh and ta`dīl, from any sect, is a self-serving system. 
     
    في أمان الله
  24. Like
    rotten_coconut reacted to AbuMuhsin in Response To Narrator Criticism In Sunni Rijal   
    http://www.worldcat.org/title/atb-al-jamil-ala-ahl-al-jarh-wa-al-tadil/oclc/768702401?referer=di&ht=edition
     
    Here's a book by Sheikh Muhammad b. Aqil al-Alawi, who is a Sunni scholar from the Ba'Alawi family of Tarim, Yemen, that largely argues what Sheikh al-Sanad argues: partisanship towards the Umayyads encouraged a mainstream Sunni tendency to criticize pro-Alid predecessors as untrustworthy and appraise anti-Alid predecessors as reliable. 
     
    This scholar has also written two books defaming Muawiyah b. Abi Sufyan as an enemy of God and encouraging Sunni scholars to reject him as such. The first book garnered severe criticism from the Wahhabi establishment, and the second book was produced in response to this criticism. His teacher Sayyid Abu Bakr b. Ibn Shihab, also from the Ba'Alawi family, wrote a supplementary book to support al-Alawi's arguments.
     
    Of course, this will all be very hard to digest for our opponents whose staunch textualism aided by a general incompetency with basic rules of logic removes any possibility for them to be objective in their search for religious truth and causes them to resort to personal attacks against scholars and censorship. Congratulations to all of you for you are surely the sons of Muawiyah!
  25. Like
    rotten_coconut reacted to Islamic Salvation in A Comprehensive Compilation of Reliable Narrations   
    Twelfth chapter in the book is 1.12. Regarding Innovation and Analogical Reasoning
    https://sites.google.com/site/mujamalahadith/vol1/book-of-intellect-and-knowledge/regarding-innovation-and-analogical-reasoning
     
    [1/54] الكافي: الحسين بن محمد الاشعري، عن معلى بن محمد، عن الحسن بن علي الوشاء، و عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن ابن فضال جميعا، عن عاصم بن حميد، عن محمد ابن مسلم، عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال: خطب أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام الناس فقال: أيها الناس إنما بدء وقوع الفتن أهواء تتبع، وأحكام تبتدع، يخالف فيها كتاب الله، يتولى فيها رجال رجالا، فلو أن الباطل خلص لم يخف على ذي حجى، ولو أن الحق خلص لم يكن اختلاف ولكن يؤخذ من هذا ضغث ومن هذا ضغث فيمزجان فيجيئان معا فهنالك استحوذ الشيطان على أوليائه ونجا الذين سبقت لهم من الله الحسنى
    [1/54] al-Kafi: al-Husayn b. Muhammad al-Ash’ari from Mualla b. Muhammad from al-Hasan b. Ali al-Washsha AND a number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Fadhal all together from A’sim b. Humayd from Muhammad b. Muslim from Abi Ja’far عليه السلام who said: the commander of the faithful عليه السلام addressed the people and said: O people - verily the beginning of occurrence of strife is [due to] desires being followed and laws being innovated - in which the book of Allah is opposed and in which men follow other men, if the falsehood were to be completely distinct it would not be hidden from anyone who possesses intellect, and if the truth were to be completely distinct there would not be any disagreement, but it is taken from this (falsehood) a handful and from that (truth) a handful and then mixed and presented together, this is whence the Satan overwhelms his allies whilst are saved those to whom had preceded grace from Allah.       
     
    [2/55] الكافي: علي بن إبراهيم، عن محمد بن عيسى بن عبيد، عن يونس بن عبدالرحمن، عن سماعة بن مهران، عن أبي الحسن موسى عليه السلام قال: قلت: أصلحك الله إنا نجتمع فنتذاكر ما عندنا فلا يرد علينا شئ إلا وعندنا فيه شئ مسطر وذلك مما أنعم الله به علينا بكم، ثم يرد علينا الشئ الصغير ليس عندنا فيه شئ فينظر بعضنا إلى بعض، وعندنا ما يشبهه فنقيس على أحسنه؟ فقال: ومالكم وللقياس؟ إنما هلك من هلك من قبلكم بالقياس، ثم قال: إذا جاء كم ما تعلمون، فقولوا به وإن جائكم ما لا تعلمون فها - وأهوى بيده إلى فيه - ثم قال: لعن الله أبا حنيفة كان يقول: قال علي وقلت أنا، وقالت الصحابة وقلت، ثم قال: أكنت تجلس إليه؟ فقلت: لا ولكن هذا كلامه، فقلت: أصلحك الله أتى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله الناس بما يكتفون به في عهده؟ قال: نعم وما يحتاجون إليه إلى يوم القيامة، فقلت: فضاع من ذلك شئ؟ فقال: لا هو عند أهله
    [2/55] al-Kafi: Ali b. Ibrahim from Muhammad b. Isa b. Ubayd from Yunus b. Abd al-Rahman from Sima’a b. Mihran from Abi al-Hasan Musa عليه السلام, I said: may Allah make you prosper - we do gather and discuss what we have (from you), nothing is referred to us (of questions) except that we have in it something (answer) recorded (on your authority), and that is from what Allah has blessed us with through you, however a small thing may be referred to us in which we have nothing (from you), so we look at one another (in hopelessness), but we do have something similar to it (answers from you about parallel scenarios) - should we analogize it (the question asked) to the most suited (closest scenario)? he said: and what do you have to do with analogical reasoning? verily they were destroyed those who were destroyed before you because of analogical reasoning, then he said: if it comes to you that which you have knowledge of then - say, and if it comes to you that which you do not know then - and he pointed with his hand to his mouth, then he said: may Allah curse Aba Hanifa he used to say: “Ali said but I say” and “the companions said but I say”, then he said: did you use to sit with him (in his teaching sessions)? I said: no - but these are his words, then I said: may Allah make you prosper - the messenger of Allah came with all that which would suffice them (the people) in his time? he said: yes, and even that which they will have need of up to the day of judgment, I said: has anything from that been lost? he said: no, it is with his family.  
     
    [3/56] الكافي: علي، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس، عن قتيبة قال: سأل رجل أبا عبدالله عليه السلام عن مسألة فأجابه فيها، فقال الرجل: أرأيت إن كان كذا وكذا ما يكون القول فيها؟ فقال له: مه ما أجبتك فيه من شئ فهو عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله لسنا من: " أرأيت" في شئ
    [3/56] al-Kafi: Ali from Muhammad b. Isa from Yunus from Qutayba who said: a man asked Aba Abdillah عليه السلام about an issue and he answered him in it - so the man said: suppose if it were so and so - what would the answer be in it then? So he said to him: keep silent, whatever I have answered regarding it then it is on the authority of the messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله, we have nothing to do with ‘suppose’ whatsoever.
    --> “suppose” [lit. do you see]: a clause that was used by ever-imaginative students to frame questions of a hypothetical nature to scholars and get them to opine in matters of the law. It was mostly used within circles which considered reason as a primary source of the religion. The Imam sets the record straight by emphasizing the importance of sticking to the letter of the law in which there is no room for personal interpretation beyond what is received from the prophet. 
     
    [4/57] الكافي: محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن الحسن بن محبوب، عن معاوية بن وهب قال: سمعت أبا عبدالله عليه السلام يقول: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: إن عند كل بدعة تكون من بعدي يكاد بها الايمان وليا من أهل بيتي موكلا به يذب عنه، ينطق بإلهام من الله ويعلن الحق وينوره، ويرد كيد الكائدين، يعبر عن الضعفاء فاعتبروا يا أولي الابصار وتوكلوا على الله
    [4/57] al-Kafi: Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Isa from al-Hasan b. Mahbub from Muawiya b. Wahb who said: I heard Aba Abdillah عليه السلام saying: the messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله said: For every innovation that arises after me - by which is sought the weakening of the faith - there will be a guardian from the people of my house in charge of it (faith) who will defend it, he will speak by inspiration from Allah and will proclaim the truth and illuminate it, he will repulse the plot of the plotters and speak out in defense of the weak ones, so pay heed O possessors of insight and rely upon Allah.    
     
    [5/58] الكافي: محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الوشاء، عن مثنى الحناط، عن أبي بصير قال: قلت لابي عبدالله عليه السلام: ترد علينا أشياء ليس نعرفها في كتاب الله ولا سنة فننظر فيها؟ فقال: لا، أما إنك إن أصبت لم تؤجر، وإن أخطأت كذبت على الله عز وجل
    [5/58] al-Kafi: Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from al-Washsha from Muthanna al-Hannat from Abi Basir who said: I said to Abi Abdillah عليه السلام: things are referred to us of which we have no knowledge in the Book of Allah nor the Sunna - should we exercise reason in them? He said: no, for even if you were to get it right you will not be rewarded for it, and if you were to err in it then you have lied upon Allah Mighty and Majestic.
     
    [6/59] الكافي: محمد بن إسماعيل، عن الفضل بن شاذان، عن صفوان بن يحيى، عن عبد الرحمن بن الحجاج، عن أبان بن تغلب عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال: إن السنة لا تقاس ألا ترى أن امرأة تقضي صومها ولا تقضي صلاتها يا أبان! إن السنة إذا قيست محق الدين
    [6/59] al-Kafi: Muhammad b. Ismail from al-Fadhl b. Shadhan from Safwan b. Yahya from Abd al-Rahman b. al-Hajjaj from Aban b. Taghlib from Abi Abdillah عليه السلام who said: the Sunna cannot be derived by analogy, do you not see that a woman repays her fasts but does not repay her prayers, O Aban! If the Sunna is analogized then the religion is destroyed. 
     
    [7/60] التوحيد والعيون والأمالي: ابن المتوكل، عن علي، عن أبيه، عن الريان بن الصلت، عن علي بن موسى الرضا، عن آبائه، عن أمير المؤمنين عليهم السلام قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه واله قال الله جل جلاله: ما آمن بي من فسر برأيه كلامي، وما عرفني من شبهني بخلقي وما على ديني من استعمل القياس في ديني
    [7/60] al-Tawhid and al-Uyun and al-Amali: Ibn al-Mutawakkil from Ali from his father from al-Rayyan b. al-Salt from Ali b. Musa al-Ridha from his forefathers from the commander of the faithful عليهم السلام who said: the messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه واله said: Allah Majestic is His Majesty said: he has not believed in Me the one who interprets My words based on his opinion, and he has not known Me the one who compares Me to My creation, and he is not upon My religion the one who uses analogical reasoning in it.
     
    [8/61] معاني الاخبار: ابن الوليد، عن الصفار، عن احمد بن محمد ابن عيسى، عن الأهوازي، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن حماد، عن الحلبي قال: قلت لابي عبد الله عليه السلام: ما أدنى ما يكون به العبد كافرا؟ قال: أن يبتدع شيئا فيتولى عليه ويبرأ ممن خالفه
    [8/61] Ma’ani al-Akhbar: Ibn al-Walid from al-Saffar from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Isa from al-Ahwazi from Ibn Abi Umayr from Hammad from al-Halabi who said: I said to Abi Abdillah عليه السلام: what is the least thing by which the slave becomes Kafir? he said: that he innovates something and associates solely on its basis and disassociates from the one who opposes him (in it).
     
    [9/62] معاني الاخبار: وبهذا الاسناد عن ابن عيسى، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن ابن اذينة، عن بريد العجلي قال: قلت لابي عبد الله عليه السلام: ما أدنى ما يصير به العبد كافرا؟ قال: فأخذ حصاة من الارض فقال: أن يقول لهذه الحصاة: إنها نواة، ويبرء ممن خالفه على ذلك، ويدين الله بالبراءة ممن قال بغير قوله، فهذا ناصب قد أشرك بالله وكفر من حيث لا يعلم
    [9/62] Ma’ani al-Akhbar: With the above chain from Ibn Isa from Ibn Abi Umayr from Ibn Udhayna from Burayd al-Ijli who said: I said to Abi Abdillah عليه السلام: what is the least thing by which the slave becomes Kafir? So he took a pebble from the ground and said: that he says about this pebble ‘it is a date-stone’ and goes on to disassociate from anyone who opposes him in that, and he worships Allah by disassociating from the one who professes a belief other than his own, so this is a hostile opponent who has ascribed partners to Allah and disbelieved without knowing.   
     
    [10/63] الكافي: علي بن إبراهيم، عن محمد بن عيسى بن عبيد، عن يونس، عن حريز عن زرارة قال: سألت أبا عبدالله عليه السلام عن الحلال والحرام فقال: حلال محمد حلال أبدا إلى يوم القيامة، وحرامه حرام أبدا إلى يوم القيامة، لا يكون غيره ولا يجيئ غيره، وقال: قال علي عليه السلام: ما أحد ابتدع بدعة إلا ترك بها سنة
    [10/63] al-Kafi: Ali b. Ibrahim from Muhammad b. Isa b. Ubayd from Yunus from Hariz from Zurara who said: I asked Aba Abdillah عليه السلام about the Halal and the Haram so he said: the Halal of Muhammad is Halal forever unto the day of judgment and his Haram is Haram forever unto the day of judgment, there will be nothing other than it and nothing apart from it will come, and he said: Ali عليه السلام said: no one has innovated a Bid’a except that he has abandoned a Sunna (by doing so).
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