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In the Name of God بسم الله


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  1. Thank you very much for the links. I feel much happier now having read the above. Allahumma salli ala Muhammad wa aale Muhammad.
  2. Thank you so much for the link; it is a great website. I understand what the author is explaining but it doesn't quite touch on the subject of the Imam (atf) being witness and having our deeds presented to him rather than the Prophet (saw). Do you think that you could point me in the right direction. Wasalaam
  3. Salaam I was fortunate enough to be able to attend the Imam Mahdi Conference at the Islamic Centre in Maida Vale (London) yesterday and benefited greatly from three of the lectures. I used to be one of members of the school of the ahl-us-Sunna before changing last August but I have not read much about our twelfth Imam (as) (unfortunately). One of the things that I heard yesterday was that the Imam witnesses our deeds and is presented with them every Thursday. When I used to be sunni/sufi, this was one of the things that was said to be the preserve of the best of creation, Muhammad al-Mustafa (sallalahu alayhi wa aalihi wa sallam) and that he was presented with our deeds on Thursdays and was a witness for us and all of mankind; Allah says: “Thus We have appointed you a middle nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you.” [sûrah al-Baqarah: 143] I would be most grateful if someone could explain the difference for me - it is one of the things that I still have a little bit of difficulty with. Many thanks.
  4. Salaams This will be long - I apologise in advance. In my reading, there is certainly no evidence that leading the prayer entitles you to be leader. But being leader entitles you to lead the prayer. The sunnis and shi'a will never agree on this point. The reason is that they have taken their methodology of choosing their leader from the fact that Abu Bakr led the prayer and subsequently became caliph and established a shura system etc. Therefore it would require a major rethink of their whole understanding of governance. I read some of the previous links above and there does seem to be a lot of discussion. I am not a scholar and I'm not a student of knowledge. What I have done is type 'Abu Bakr', 'lead', 'prayer' into the search database at http://www.usc.edu/cgi-bin/msasearch I wish to use sunni sahih texts and attempt to look at them critically. If I err (as I will), I'm sorry. If there are others out there more qualified (as there will be), forgive my errors. The following ahadith were found in Bukhari. Volume 1, Book 11, Number 633: Narrated Al-Aswad: "We were with 'Aisha discussing the regularity of offering the prayer and dignifying it. She said, 'When Allah's Apostle fell sick with the fatal illness and when the time of prayer became due and Adhan was pronounced, he said, 'Tell Abu Bakr to lead the people in prayer.' He was told that Abu Bakr was a soft-hearted man and would not be able to lead the prayer in his place. The Prophet gave the same order again but he was given the same reply. He gave the order for the third time and said, 'You (women) are the companions of Joseph. Tell Abu Bakr to lead the prayer.' So Abu Bakr came out to lead the prayer. In the meantime the condition of the Prophet improved a bit and he came out with the help of two men one on each side. As if I was observing his legs dragging on the ground owing to the disease. Abu Bakr wanted to retreat but the Prophet beckoned him to remain at his place and the Prophet was brought till he sat beside Abu Bakr." Al-A'mash was asked, "Was the Prophet praying and Abu Bakr following him, and were the people following Abu Bakr in that prayer?" Al-A'mash replied in the affirmative with a nod of his head. Abu Muawiya said, "The Prophet was sitting on the left side of Abu Bakr who was praying while standing." Volume 1, Book 11, Number 634: Narrated 'Aisha: "When the Prophet became seriously ill and his disease became aggravated he asked for permission from his wives to be nursed in my house and he was allowed. He came out with the help of two men and his legs were dragging on the ground. He was between Al-Abbas and another man." 'Ubaid Ullah said, "I told Ibn 'Abbas what 'Aisha had narrated and he said, 'Do you know who was the (second) man whose name 'Aisha did not mention'" I said, 'No.' Ibn 'Abbas said, 'He was 'Ali Ibn Abi Talib.' " Volume 1, Book 11, Number 646: Narrated Abu Musa: "The Prophet became sick and when his disease became aggravated, he said, "Tell Abu Bakr to lead the prayer." 'Aisha said, "He is a soft-hearted man and would not be able to lead the prayer in your place." The Prophet said again, "Tell Abu Bakr to lead the people in prayer." She repeated the same reply but he said, "Tell Abu Bakr to lead the people in prayer. You are the companions of Joseph." So the messenger went to Abu Bakr (with that order) and he led the people in prayer in the lifetime of the Prophet. Volume 1, Book 11, Numbers 647-652, 655,680,681,684 There are lots of repeats in other books of Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 727: Narrated Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) "When the ailment of Allah's Apostle became aggravated, he requested his wives to permit him to be (treated) nursed in my house, and they gave him permission. He came out (to my house), walking between two men with his feet dragging on the ground, between 'Abbas bin 'Abdul--Muttalib and another man" 'Ubaidullah said, "I told 'Abdullah of what 'Aisha had said, 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas said to me, 'Do you know who is the other man whom 'Aisha did not name?' I said, 'No.' Ibn 'Abbas said, 'It was 'Ali bin Abu Talib." 'Aisha, the wife of the Prophet used to narrate saying, "When Allah's Apostle entered my house and his disease became aggravated, he said, " Pour on me the water of seven water skins, the mouths of which have not been untied, so that I may give advice to the people.' So we let him sit in a big basin belonging to Hafsa, the wife of the Prophet and then started to pour water on him from these water skins till he started pointing to us with his hands intending to say, 'You have done your job." 'Aisha added, "Then he went out to the people and led them in prayer and preached to them." 'Aisha and 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas said, "When Allah's Apostle became ill seriously, he started covering his face with his woolen sheet, and when he felt short of breath, he removed it from hi; face and said, 'That is so! Allah's (curse be on the Jews and the Christians, as they took the graves of their prophets as (places of worship),' intending to warn (the Muslims ) of what they had done." 'Aisha added, "I argued with Allah's Apostle repeatedly about that matter (i.e. his order that Abu Bakr should lead the people in prayer in his place when he was ill), and what made me argue so much, was, that it never occurred to my mind that after the Prophet, the people would ever love a man who had taken his place, and I felt that anybody standing in his place, would be a bad omen to the people, so I wanted Allah's Apostle to give up the idea of choosing Abu Bakr (to lead the people in prayer)." Volume 9, Book 89, Number 287: Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Salim, the freed salve of Abu Hudhaifa used to lead in prayer the early Muhajirin (emigrants) and the companions of the Prophet in the Quba mosque. Among those (who used to pray behind him) were Abu Bakr, 'Umar, Abu Salama, and Amir bin Rabi'a. Volume 9, Book 92, Number 406: Narrated 'Aisha: (the mother of believers) Allah's Apostle during his fatal ailment said, "Order Abu Bakr to lead the people in prayer." I said, "If Abu Bakr stood at your place (in prayers, the people will not be able to hear him because of his weeping, so order 'Umar to lead the people in prayer." He again said, "Order Abu Bakr to lead the people in prayer " Then I said to Hafsa, "Will you say (to the Prophet), 'If Abu Bakr stood at your place, the people will not be able to hear him be cause of his weeping, so order 'Umar to lead the people in prayer?" Hafsa did so, whereupon Allah's Apostle said, "You are like the companions of Joseph (See Qur'an, 12:30-32). Order Abu Bakr to lead the people in prayer." Hafsa then said to me, "I have never received any good from you!" It seems that there are a number of narrators who saw Abu Bakr lead the prayer and thus, we can surmise that he did do so. The instruction from the Prophet (saw) originates from Hadhrat Ayesha alone. She doesn't see or wish to name the 'other man' who helps the Prophet (saw) out of the house. It is possible that Abu Bakr is asked to lead although there is really only one witness to this instruction and this must be borne in mind; Amir-ul-Mumineen Ali ibn Abi-Talib (as) is helping the messenger at his home during his illness. The Shi'a have clear ahadith regarding the succession of Amir-ul-Mumineen Ali ibn Abi-Talib (as). The fact that Abu Bakr leads the prayer is not proof. At Saqifa, this fact is not advanced as proof by Abu Bakr himself. That is my reading of the situation. Ma'salaama
  5. Salaam all You may remember me from a few threads down. I'm currently in discussion (very amicable I may add) with one of my friends who is sunni (his father is shi'i) - his only question to me (he has been having these discussions with is father for a long time) was why Abu Bakr was asked to lead the prayer in place of Rasullalah (sallalahu alayhi wassallam) in His (sallalahu alayhi wassallam) last days. Clearly there is enough material to substantiate the claim of Ameer-ul-Mumineen Ali ibn-Abi Talib's (as) to the caliphate but nonetheless, it would be interesting to hear the views of the learned on the subject. I found very little on my trawl of the internet except http://www.al-islam.org/restatement/40.htm I didn't find it very useful, I have to say. The Sahih books of the sunni are replete with accounts of the Prophet (sallalahu alayhi wassallam) asking Abu Bakr to lead the prayer and that is a strong proof according to the sunnis that he was the best person after the prophet (sallalahu alayhi wassallam) - of course, you all know this already. Many thanks (Nearly)Shia
  6. Salam and welcome to Shia Islam :). I saw youor post that you became Shia on 28/8/08.

  7. Salaams I had been thinking about it for a while. There was no doubt about the primacy of the Ahl-ul-Bayt and after really looking at the historical context of the first 4 caliphs, I concluded that Imam Ali (as) should have been the first caliph. It leads on to counter the sunni claim that the first three caliphs were 'rightly guided'. The issue of Muawiyah and Yazid were sorted out in my head long ago. Fiqh differences such as mu'tah are just that. If you accept the doctrine, then you accept the fiqh. One shouldn't allow fiqh to determine whether or not you accept a doctrine. The issue of imamate confused me slightly (if you look at the first message that I posted, you can see that of the four things that I have cited as "issues", only the first one is of doctrinal importance). MajiC suggested I read Imamate and Leadership , Lessons on Islamic Doctrine by Sayyid Mujtaba Musavi Lari, and it really is a beacon of clarity. So, although it seems fast, I think that it was fairly smooth. Thanks.
  8. Salaams I embraced shi'ism on the 28/8/08. Thank you all for your help. My heart is settled. (Nearly) Shia
  9. Salaams I'd like to thank everyone for replying to my questions especially Fatimeh and MajiC. Waqas 411, debate amongst people with manners is inoffensive by its very nature. Sunni ahadeeth sciences may have developed along a lot better – I know little about this myself. What I do know however from my affiliation with the mutassawifah (the sufis) is that knowledge is passed down from man to man, in a line, and we must take from that. Taking from books lends itself to error. The proof for this is that God sent his Archangel to deliver the message to His beloved Prophet (saw). We all know that the Prophet (saw) is much higher in rank that Gabriel - but as a means to teach us that we must sit at the feet of the shuyukh. I know that the sunnis love the Prophet (saw) and the Ahl-ul-Bayt. I myself (for the sake of clarification) am (was) a Hanafi by fiqh, Ashari by aqeeda and Qadri by tariqa. Of the sunnis, no-one loves the (as I have spent much time with the deobandis and salafis) Prophet and His house (upon them be peace and blessings) more than they. You talk about elevated love for Imams Hasan and Hussein - therein lies the problem (I believe). There are many paths and I am at a crossroad. Fiqh differences play no part in my decision because once you choose a path, you stick with the fiqh (and you believe that a sound judgement gets two rewards, an incorrect one gets one). I have decided that the best (not the only) way to reach God is via his messenger and his family (upon them be blessings and peace). I believe that anyone who caught sight of the messenger is better than me. I will not curse anyone for their affair is with God - historical analyses are permitted however. The sunni position is that ijmas-sahaba is a sound position from which to derive rulings. Also, to pick fault with the 4 Caliphs is wrong. If they were infallible, yes, that would be a sound position. I have heard many sunni imams (usually salafis and a few deobandis) and ignorants refer to yazeed ibn muawiyah as an imam. Therein lies my problem. Finally, the majority does not imply truth. At Badr, we were in the minority and we will be again at the end. I believe that we need to inculcate love for the 12th Imam, for we need to be his supporter. He is no need of us. Again thank you all for your help. Things become more clear by the day but I would urge all of us (myself first and foremost) to continue to strive for the truth and to ask God to place sincerity in our hearts. Allah Hafez. Very Nearly Shia.
  10. Thank you Fatimeh. You know, I have spent most of my adult life as a sunni with reverence for the Ahl-ul-Bayt. If some of you are familiar with the Barelvi sunni muslim fraternity, you may have some idea of the esteem in which they hold the prophet (saw) and those covered by the cloak. These debates which sunni and shia have been having over the centuries, clearly have not been resolved satisfactorily one way or the other. I am left only to say that my heart inclines towards the shia. Having said all that, if anyone knows where I can get a copy of Al-Murajaat, I would be most grateful (I'm not so good at reading websites and would prefer a hard copy). Allah Hafez
  11. Thank you BintAlHoda. As a person who followed the sufi path, there are stories abound of Khidr (as) intervening at critical points in time. I take your points on board - thank you for taking the time to reply. I was speaking to one friend yesterday whose father is shia. He told me that the one sticking point he has is as follows: He believes that it is most likely that the Prophet (saw) did not give any clear indication of who was to succeed him, and that everyone at the time did what they thought was best. He really can't bring himself to say that the first three caliphs knowingly went against the direct command of the prophet (saw) - if he (saw) said that Imam Ali (as) was to be the next in line. I don't have enough knowledge to talk on the matter. Thanks again.
  12. Thank you so much for your reply. Would you permit me to ask a few more questions or point me to a resource which you think would benefit me with regards to the types of questions that I am asking? I don't accept the ahl-ul-sunna position of the shura principle which is clearly against what our beloved prophet (saw) requested. 1) Why 12 imams only? The progeny of our master, the prophet (saw) goes on until the end of time. 2) Why does it (the imamate or any other principle according to the Shia) have to satisfy human logic? 3) Imam Ali was the first Imam (I agree this point) - why did he not establish his claim as the first Imam of the muslims? 4) The link between the prophet (saw) goes through the imams until Imam Hasan-Al-Askari (as). Who then takes on the mantle in order to transmit the deen to us? Are we then relying on non-infallible people to transmit thus diluting the knowledge? 5) Following on from (4): If it Imam Mahdi (as), then does he transmit his knowledge to people? Thank you again.
  13. Assalamualaykum to all - this is my first post. I would like some help please. I was raised in a sunni household (you could say deobandi or salfiesque) but through friends and one member of my family, over the past 15 years or so, I find myself at this point in my life. I now believe in the pre-eminence of Ahl-ul-Bayt, tawassul, I believe in the perfection of the 12 imams, the return of the 12 th Imam, the problems around the caliphate (this is historically documented and incontrovertible) and the practice of islam to me via the fiqh of Imam Jafar-as-Sadiq (as). Fiqh issues (such as mutah) and differences are really neither here nor there. My difficulties: 1) The imamate - I believe that they were perfect. But divinely protected? The prophet (saw) yes. 2) Why is it so (apparently) important to point out the problems with Abu Bakr, Umar and Ayesha (may God forgive them and us all our sins) and the rest. Isn't it better to say that their affair is with God and leave it at that? 3) There appear to be many awliya who are sunni. Is that congruous with Shia thought? 4) Finally, the part of the sunni/sufi path that I really enjoyed was the constant mentioning, yearning, praise and magnification of the prophet (saw) through things like dalail-ul-khayrat, the burda etc. I don't quite see the same among the shia posts and websites that I have read. I do know however that I haven't had a chance to talk to many shia practising people. I would appreciate any constructive help. Thank you and may God bless you for your efforts.
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