yafatimaalzahra

Apologies, praise was the incorrect term to use. Correction: "I simply used my disagreement with the maraji', whom verbally wish for Allah(swt) to be pleased with the enemies of Ahlulbayt(as), as an example".

And as I have been trying to tell Danish, I do not disagree with the requirement of having to pay khums. What I disagree with is the apparent obligation for me to pay it to the maraji'.

^ Sayed Fadhlullah, Sayed Sadr and Sayed Sistani to name a few. Just so you know, I consider saying (ra) after their names as a praise - which is technically the incorrect term to use.

Unfortunately, many men do not think of it as an insult. It's as if it's perfectly normal to go around and claim that women are mentally less superior because they're "emotionally" superior - and even then, we're portrayed as only having an abundance of what are generally considered weak emotions, whereas men of course have "stronger" emotions.

I didn't say you were both man and woman, I said you cannot make the claims you made unless you were both man and woman. Suggesting you were both man and woman would actually defeat my argument. Lol, ok.

@Aftahb, I just had a look at the link you provided and they appear to all be questions answered by Syed Sistini and not my marji'. The book containing the rulings from Sheikh Khorasani does not appear to have any say on how I decide to deal with khums (unless I completely missed it because there are several pages on what things you pay khums for).

I'm not sure if you're purposefully trying to be insulting or if it's just difficult for you to articulate what you mean. I'm going to assume it's the latter. Regardless, the way you repeatedly keep mentioning womens "greater emotions" is demeaning. For example when you say "I don't think it appropriate to discuss with you because you seem much emotionally driven girlbecause emotions brings haste and haste brings destruction" you are suggesting that I, a person you have never met before or spoken to, am an emotionally driven girl. I take this to mean that you assume all girls are inherently emotionally driven (which you've just proven with your last response). You are literally grouping half of the worlds population, if not more, into one really narrow stereotype. And to top it all off you suggest that because of my being "emotionally driven" I am incapable of understanding various things - first with apparently being too emotionally driven to understand why maraji' lie (I never said they lied, but ok) and then by claiming that I, as a woman, don't understand how "women's love contains more emotions than men". I don't refute that last claim either because I only have my perspective as a woman to judge from and unless you've been both a woman and a man I don't really think you have much say in that either - unless there's some sort of unbiased study that supports this theory. All that being said, I have maintained an unwavering expression and steady heart rate throughout the entirety of our discussion and have literally been emotionally idle throughout the whole time. So, your claim of me being emotionally driven because of my gender, is simply ignorant and wrong. Also, this long response to you about your distinct choice of words in regards to women was not constructed because I am mad or annoyed, quite the contrary - I have yet to feel any distinct "emotion" to suggest to me that I am more than simply content. But, I like to be pretty technical when I am trying to discuss something and I would prefer others do the same in order to avoid any confusion. Alas, since the main topic of our discussion is maraji' and not womens rights, I think we should let it go and move on with the discussion. What exactly gives you the impression that I am ok with abusing or name-calling the Sunni leaders? I simply used my disagreement with the maraji' to PRAISE the enemies of Ahlulbayt(as) as an example - I did not state that I would prefer they cursed them - to show that I can disagree with the actions of a marji' and still consider their rulings because the personal aqeedah of a marji' should not affect their ability to issues fatwas. This whole thing about curing the enemies of Ahlulbayt(as) is completely off topic and should probably be discussed elsewhere. What? What government are you thinking of that actually manages zakat? Oh, the irony. And I assume you are with the maraji' and you know all about how they're doing what they can to remove poverty? Why do you keep claiming that helping the poor is the government's duty? Who's to say that it is only the governments duty? The money that is paid as khums to the maraji' is supposed to be spent on various things, as Aftahb kindly pointed out with the ruling of Syed Sistani. See below: "Khums, in brief, means paying one-fifth of the surplus of one's income after taking away the expenses of the person and his dependants. It consists of two equal parts: one being the share of the Imam, meaning that this part goes for constructing masjids, Islamic seminaries, Islamic schools, libraries, hospitals or clinics, orphanages, printing of the Noble Quran, hadith books, Islamic books and lectures, and others things which will benefit, defend, or propagate Islam. The second part is the portion for the poor sayyids (descendants of the Prophet), since they are banned from receiving zakat (charity)." Helping those in need is actually one thing that we can, or should, expect our khums money to be spent on. I don't see any of that happening in todays world, even though there's a dire need for such things in the middle east. If I am to pay my khums directly to a marji', I have a right to expect that money to go towards benefiting, defending or propagating Islam. If I do not see that happening and hence do not trust the maraji' to manage khums accordingly, then I will not pay them directly because I don't have to. Also, as someone who lives in the West, I'm pretty sure I have little say in which governments rule third world countries lol.

So as to stop hijacking the previous thread on which marji' you follow, I've started this one. The following arguments were made: Not sure what part of my post lead you to believe otherwise but I agree. I meant that I could still follow a marji' for his islamic ruling and not like him as a person or not like his aqeedah. i.e. I personally do not agree with certain behaviours of some maraji' that choose to say (ra) after the names of the enemies of Ahlulbayt but I will not stop following a marji' simply because of this, because idealistically, his personal preference to speak kindly of the la'eens should not affect his ability to inform us of certain islamic rulings based on his research of ahadith. I hope this clears up what I meant to say. Could you please provide a reference to back up this statement. I assure you, no marji' in todays world is poor, in any sense of the word. If I happen to be mistaken, however, feel free to correct me by providing me with names of maraji' that are in fact poor. Note that even though most maraji' prefer to live in small homes and follow the example of Alhlulbayt (as) by not indulging in materialistic objects, it does not necessarily prove they are poor financially. Some definitions of poor, based on dictionary.com, are: "having little or no money, goods, or other means of support" and "characterised by or showing poverty". I'm pretty certain no marji' is lacking in goods or welfare because they have no means of support or are living in poverty. In addition to this, millions of people pay khumus to the maraji' so I do not quite understand the point of the narration that you have mentioned. I may have made a personal decision to not send my money to the maraji' but that does not mean that they are not receiving help from anyone else. Is there are any proof to this? Look at those suffering from poverty in Iraq for example. How many of them are actually being supported by the maraji'? As a matter of fact, how many maraji' are actually giving any money to the poor or doing anything with it at all? I realise that some maraji' do make a small effort but in my humble opinion, their efforts are not enough. With all of the money that is going towards the maraji' annually, you would expect to see a lot less poverty in the countries that they reside in. Again, if you happen to know of any charities that are being run by maraji' that I am not aware of (or any recorded financial assistance from the maraji'), please do share your sources and help shed a positive light on this situation. As for Allah(swt) making "their hearts fear from His anger" - there is no proof of this. The maraji' are humans. A human is capable of fearing Allah(swt), yes, but they are also capable of not fearing Allah. Just because the maraji' appear to be more pious than others due to the amount of years they have devoted to becoming as learned as they are, does not mean that they are more pious than an uneducated farmer that has no knowledge about Islam other than the mere basics for instance. It is likely that they are extremely more pious than others because they are more educated about the religion, however they remain humans that are capable of mistakes and, shocker, not fearing Allah(swt). The maraji' are self-appointed ambassadors of the Imam(aaf). As far as I'm aware, the Imam(aaf) did not personally appoint them as his ambassadors. Choosing NOT to provide them with any financial support does not mean I have left the Imams message. The maraji' and the Imam are not one and the same. I can decide to dislike the maraji' and still love my Imam and I can decide to disagree with the system that is currently in place and still support the Imam. You having a different opinion than me on this issue does not make my opinion any less viable/acceptable (logically). On a related note, I would also like to point out that the maraji' are scholars. They are not infallible beings. Yes, I realise I have repeated this several times and it is an obvious fact but it seems that while facts are known they are not always understood or considered thoroughly. I like to liken the maraji' to any other scholars - be it scholars of the natural sciences or history scholars. I do not believe that what drives them to research our religion is their piety but more-so their hunger for knowledge, which is admirable. If they did not have a strong interest in Islam and a strong desire to learn more, then they would not have become maraji' just as Einstein would not have become an established scientist if he had not had the inherent desire to understand the world around him. I also do not think that any marji' is inherently evil or ill-intentioned, but it is a fact that they sometimes make mistakes in judgement (otherwise, if all maraji' were right about everything, there would be no contradictory fatwa's in which they differ in opinion). This is expectable as they are only human and are very capable of making mistakes - sometimes minor mistakes, other times drastic. For this reason, I believe it is important to be able to analyse the rulings that are made by the maraji' - to take into account any contradictory fatwas and have an open-mind when it comes to refuting them. If we were to blindly follow any human, as learned and dedicated as they may be, then we could only expect to decline as a society. Challenge is good as it helps ensure that what is being brought forth is actually reliable and accurate. And while we obviously cannot challenge Allah(swt) or Ahlulbayt(as) - we are definitely allowed to challenge the maraji', favourably only when we can actually discuss extensive islamic matters with them but regardless, disagreeing with a marji' is not prohibited or haram. Nah, don't need to go through their minds to disagree with them for doing it - regardless of their reasons. I am allowed to disagree with someone aren't I, or is freedom of speech/thought only a myth? Lulz, this is why I don't debate with men with superiority complexes that only ever resort to the "women are emotionally driven" excuse when they have nothing consequential to add to a discussion (wonder if you would've brought up my gender if it wasn't listed on my profile). Stereotypes can be also be applied to men but hey what would I know, I'm just an emotionally driven girl and can't really debate as well as you - you know with sources to back up the narrations I keep mentioning. I did not intend to hurt you but if I have then I do apologise. But if I may ask, what exactly is it that hurt you? I don't recall insulting you personally. While this is all great and well, I still feel there is a lot more money that is not being used for good. Although, I don't exactly have proof of this myself so I could very well be mistaken. While poverty may be something that the government should work on, I still believe it is a marji's obligation to help the Shia that are in dire need of basic things for survival such as clean water and food. Lol, I am not discriminating gender, I am telling something which you do not understand and that is women's love contains more emotions than men that is why I think that woman shall be in army too. Really, no one wins if woman is by your side to emotionally back you up. and if that woman be Muslim there is no case you gonna lose battle. But, you must know that sometimes emotions are proves to be destructive particularly for Muslim community. I do not say that you hurt me., I meant to say that even if we have disagreement with the leaders of our sunni brothers we must not hurt them by abusing or calling name of their leaders that is what our Imam Ali a.s said that do not call bad names to the idol of unbeliever because they call bad to your Imam. It was a quote by Imam Ali a.s for infidels not for those who are Muslims and Imam Reza a.s said that Every person who believes in Allah and Prophet (PBUHHP) is a Muslim but for being Momin accepting Ali as successor is binding condition. So, why shall we infuse instability among Muslims even though we know that we can avoid it. I am of the view that I do disagree with them and I protest against their injustices which they did against Syeda Zehra a.s or Imam Ali a.s but my stance will be that of Imam Ali a.s who opposed them in their lives but did not call names. Syeda Zehra a.s never liked to talked to them who snatched her Garden from them but she a.s never abused. So, I will follow Imam Ali a.s and syeda Zehra a.s that is never to accept their injustices and do part ways from them. And, I think this will not be wronged for anyone who questions my faith. Lastly, for elminating poverty there is system of Zakat which is meant to be managed by government. Marajas are doing everything possible to remove poverty in their domain but since you are not with them you do not have idea. And, besides why are you saying that marajas shall do government's duty, why are you keeping such governments if you do not have faith in them ? dear, it is never about what you prefer and what you see as good. It is always about rules under usooli system. Your money matters if you are under usooli system. http://www.islamic-laws.com/khums.htm here are the conditions on khums by As-Samahat al-Marje' Sheikh Husain Wahid Khorasani (HA) Islamic Laws: by As-Samahat al-Marje' Sheikh Husain Wahid Khorasani - link

@Aftahb and @Danish14, I have started a new thread where I will inshAllah reply to you both.

No, you're absolutely right. I'm currently supposed to be studying for an exam (but clearly procrastinating instead :P) but inshAllah when I'm free I'll start a separate thread. In which case, if someone else would like to reply to what I've said please feel free to start the separate thread (can you quote someone from this thread to a different one?). Or, if any mods have some spare time and can transfer the comments related to the discussion I've started into a new thread, please do so!

Nah, don't need to go through their minds to disagree with them for doing it - regardless of their reasons. I am allowed to disagree with someone aren't I, or is freedom of speech/thought only a myth? Lulz, this is why I don't debate with men with superiority complexes that only ever resort to the "women are emotionally driven" excuse when they have nothing consequential to add to a discussion (wonder if you would've brought up my gender if it wasn't listed on my profile). Stereotypes can be also be applied to men but hey what would I know, I'm just an emotionally driven girl and can't really debate as well as you - you know with sources to back up the narrations I keep mentioning. I did not intend to hurt you but if I have then I do apologise. But if I may ask, what exactly is it that hurt you? I don't recall insulting you personally. While this is all great and well, I still feel there is a lot more money that is not being used for good. Although, I don't exactly have proof of this myself so I could very well be mistaken. While poverty may be something that the government should work on, I still believe it is a marji's obligation to help the Shia that are in dire need of basic things for survival such as clean water and food.

Not sure what part of my post lead you to believe otherwise but I agree. I meant that I could still follow a marji' for his islamic ruling and not like him as a person or not like his aqeedah. i.e. I personally do not agree with certain behaviours of some maraji' that choose to say (ra) after the names of the enemies of Ahlulbayt but I will not stop following a marji' simply because of this, because idealistically, his personal preference to speak kindly of the la'eens should not affect his ability to inform us of certain islamic rulings based on his research of ahadith. I hope this clears up what I meant to say. Could you please provide a reference to back up this statement. I assure you, no marji' in todays world is poor, in any sense of the word. If I happen to be mistaken, however, feel free to correct me by providing me with names of maraji' that are in fact poor. Note that even though most maraji' prefer to live in small homes and follow the example of Alhlulbayt (as) by not indulging in materialistic objects, it does not necessarily prove they are poor financially. Some definitions of poor, based on dictionary.com, are: "having little or no money, goods, or other means of support" and "characterised by or showing poverty". I'm pretty certain no marji' is lacking in goods or welfare because they have no means of support or are living in poverty. In addition to this, millions of people pay khumus to the maraji' so I do not quite understand the point of the narration that you have mentioned. I may have made a personal decision to not send my money to the maraji' but that does not mean that they are not receiving help from anyone else. Is there are any proof to this? Look at those suffering from poverty in Iraq for example. How many of them are actually being supported by the maraji'? As a matter of fact, how many maraji' are actually giving any money to the poor or doing anything with it at all? I realise that some maraji' do make a small effort but in my humble opinion, their efforts are not enough. With all of the money that is going towards the maraji' annually, you would expect to see a lot less poverty in the countries that they reside in. Again, if you happen to know of any charities that are being run by maraji' that I am not aware of (or any recorded financial assistance from the maraji'), please do share your sources and help shed a positive light on this situation. As for Allah(swt) making "their hearts fear from His anger" - there is no proof of this. The maraji' are humans. A human is capable of fearing Allah(swt), yes, but they are also capable of not fearing Allah. Just because the maraji' appear to be more pious than others due to the amount of years they have devoted to becoming as learned as they are, does not mean that they are more pious than an uneducated farmer that has no knowledge about Islam other than the mere basics for instance. It is likely that they are extremely more pious than others because they are more educated about the religion, however they remain humans that are capable of mistakes and, shocker, not fearing Allah(swt). The maraji' are self-appointed ambassadors of the Imam(aaf). As far as I'm aware, the Imam(aaf) did not personally appoint them as his ambassadors. Choosing NOT to provide them with any financial support does not mean I have left the Imams message. The maraji' and the Imam are not one and the same. I can decide to dislike the maraji' and still love my Imam and I can decide to disagree with the system that is currently in place and still support the Imam. You having a different opinion than me on this issue does not make my opinion any less viable/acceptable (logically). On a related note, I would also like to point out that the maraji' are scholars. They are not infallible beings. Yes, I realise I have repeated this several times and it is an obvious fact but it seems that while facts are known they are not always understood or considered thoroughly. I like to liken the maraji' to any other scholars - be it scholars of the natural sciences or history scholars. I do not believe that what drives them to research our religion is their piety but more-so their hunger for knowledge, which is admirable. If they did not have a strong interest in Islam and a strong desire to learn more, then they would not have become maraji' just as Einstein would not have become an established scientist if he had not had the inherent desire to understand the world around him. I also do not think that any marji' is inherently evil or ill-intentioned, but it is a fact that they sometimes make mistakes in judgement (otherwise, if all maraji' were right about everything, there would be no contradictory fatwa's in which they differ in opinion). This is expectable as they are only human and are very capable of making mistakes - sometimes minor mistakes, other times drastic. For this reason, I believe it is important to be able to analyse the rulings that are made by the maraji' - to take into account any contradictory fatwas and have an open-mind when it comes to refuting them. If we were to blindly follow any human, as learned and dedicated as they may be, then we could only expect to decline as a society. Challenge is good as it helps ensure that what is being brought forth is actually reliable and accurate. And while we obviously cannot challenge Allah(swt) or Ahlulbayt(as) - we are definitely allowed to challenge the maraji', favourably only when we can actually discuss extensive islamic matters with them but regardless, disagreeing with a marji' is not prohibited or haram.

At the end of the book, gives a shady narration of the events that lead up to the murder - practically admits to doing it.

^ True, I did not mean to imply they couldn't.

^ No one's exchanging blows. It's just a widespread issue that really needs to be addressed. People are starting to treat maraji' as infallible beings that cannot be spoken of or even mentioned without a whole ten-word praise before their name. It'd be nice to see someone actually saying: "Al-Imam Al-Atham Al-muqadas Al... Ali (may Allah shower his rooh with blessings)" as opposed to "Al-etc. some-random-marji'". Perhaps a new thread will keep the blows elsewhere; but as laziness prevails, I'll get to that later. Also, I'm pretty sure all topics lead to some form of drama on ShiaChat.