Socrates

Salaam Youth of Ali/Socrates life catches up with you and then there are more ways to waste time now in between I got a masters and went to Najaf to study as well and now alhamdulillah have been visiting many different countries for Tableegh am in contact with quite a few oldies like @phoenix @Ibn al-Hussain Sana, Nida, Akbar, (Maulana) Hadi Rizvi etc etc

While I agree that one should not be uncritically accepting of everything, the above statement is clearly untrue. Most of the stories related in the masaib are not exaggerations.

Mustafa Welfare Society is holding a programme in Muharram 1433 (Nov/Dec 2011) as follows: Dates: 26th November 2011 - 7th December 2011 (inclusive) Time: 6.00pm Location: Great Liver Community Centre, Bradford Road, Bolton, Lancs. BL3 2HF Speakers: Syed Zafar Abbas (Najaf al-Ashraf, Iraq) in English Hujjatul Islam Maulana Syed Mussaddaq Hussain Taqvi (Newport Gwent, South Wales) in Urdu

Its "sidd al abwab" and care to point out what the problem with my translation is? I'll be only too happy to provide you with the Arabic, but it seems your Arabic isn't too great... Whether or not Hakim is authentic, this hadith is reliable or the companions are lying, has no bearing on me since I don't belong to your religion, so all your arguments are pretty much a waste of time. Its hilarious that this thread has gone from the "bravery" of Umar (or lack thereof) to such much irrelevance.

Actually I got those references from the actual books and if you think its a copy paste, do a quick google search and the post that will come up is actually an earlier post of my own in another thread ;) Clearly you don't know much about hadith sciences if you're rejecting Mustadrak al-Hakim when its pretty well known that his hadiths are ones which fit the criteria of Bukhari and/or Muslim but are not included in those books. And seeing as you guys consider them Sahih, that puts you in a bit of a pickle. The point is, if giving the flag to Ali (as) wasn't a particular important event, or if it was the same as giving it to other companions, you wouldn't have three companions specifically talking about it, unless you want to call them all crazy and/or less informed than you.

Well if you're comfortable with calling the giants in your religion liars (since they have authenticated this hadith through three different companions - none of whom were particularly on good terms with Ali (as)), then that's your issue. But I thought you might respond in kind. In short, everything about all the other companions in authentic and true; everything about Ali (as) and his family is weak and false. :)

ambrosechappell I have one question for you: why is it no verse of the Qur'an or any hadith of the Prophet (pbuh) was even mentioned at saqifa, let alone used as a basis for deciding the succession?

I understood your point perfectly but it is irrelevant. Firstly, there's no such thing as an unbiased perspective. Every historian has a bias of some kind. Secondly, from your biased unbiased perspective, please tell me what is cowardly about signing a peace treaty?

yeah thought so. Sayed Mousawi lived in India for 12 years as Sayed Khoei's representative, so his Urdu is really good.

Sayed Moustafa Qazwini speaks Urdu? You sure?

Of course, since the Prophet (pbuh) did all these things, and I don't think any Muslim would like to call the Prophet (pbuh) a coward. Indeed. For he is the "Imam" - the one who stands in front. Both literally and figuratively. How merciful is the Almighty that he blessed us with twelve such individuals.