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In the Name of God بسم الله

sunni muslim

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  1. Like
    sunni muslim got a reaction from Suhail786 in Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary   
    Calm down sir. If you can't answer a question just say that. Don't you waste so much time discussing saqifa. 
  2. Disagree
    sunni muslim got a reaction from Huss Mourad in Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary   
    Twelver :- it is obligatory upon Allah to appoint an imam at all times. 
    Sunni :- why? 
    Twelver:- One of the most important aspects of this revelation and gift is the Sharia. The state of the Sharia today in both the Sunni and Shia madhabs is in a state of confusion and ijithad based upon speculative sources. This is because fiqh (jurisprudence) covers so many aspects of life and has potentially an infinite amount of different unique cases that is is impossible that a compendium of hadith could contain all of these issues, nor is it possible that any type of usul system using general principles can dictate the formulation of these potentially infinite specific laws, not to mention that much of the Sharia if not almost all is based upon khabar wahad(single reports). Thus logical necessity dictates that an imam must be present in order that he may clarify and give the believers proper instruction, we know this is true because the alternative means that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has revealed a religion that has a lacking in it, and this is impossible. The principle of Adl(justice) dictates that Allah has latf (grace) in that he has made it an obligation upon himself to complete this religion and to do what is best for the guidance of mankind. If having an imam is for the best and the most advantageous for mankind to follow Islam then it is logically necessary that he would appoint such an imam
    Sunni:- then where he is? 
    Twelvee:- um ah, they guide by the command of allah. 
    sunni:- if leaving this religion without an infallible imam at all times so that he can clarify, expound, deliver and protect this religion is against allah's lutf(kindness), then why didn't Allah command him to come out of 1200 years of ghaybah and start doing those things. Don't you think Allah keeping the imam for 1200 years of occultation is more against his lutf
    Twelver :- um ah it's the rijs in you which is keeping you away from ahlul bayt, um ah silence is the best reply to a fool, um ah khidr and isa, um ah, your lineage  bla bla bla
     
  3. My Prayers
    sunni muslim got a reaction from Muslim by Choice in Prophets, Imams and taqiyyah   
    Shia believe that prophets are not allowed to perform taqiyyah under any circumstances, while imams are allowed to do that. Give me one rational explanation as to why is that. 
  4. Haha
    sunni muslim got a reaction from Muslim2010 in Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary   
    Twelver :- it is obligatory upon Allah to appoint an imam at all times. 
    Sunni :- why? 
    Twelver:- One of the most important aspects of this revelation and gift is the Sharia. The state of the Sharia today in both the Sunni and Shia madhabs is in a state of confusion and ijithad based upon speculative sources. This is because fiqh (jurisprudence) covers so many aspects of life and has potentially an infinite amount of different unique cases that is is impossible that a compendium of hadith could contain all of these issues, nor is it possible that any type of usul system using general principles can dictate the formulation of these potentially infinite specific laws, not to mention that much of the Sharia if not almost all is based upon khabar wahad(single reports). Thus logical necessity dictates that an imam must be present in order that he may clarify and give the believers proper instruction, we know this is true because the alternative means that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has revealed a religion that has a lacking in it, and this is impossible. The principle of Adl(justice) dictates that Allah has latf (grace) in that he has made it an obligation upon himself to complete this religion and to do what is best for the guidance of mankind. If having an imam is for the best and the most advantageous for mankind to follow Islam then it is logically necessary that he would appoint such an imam
    Sunni:- then where he is? 
    Twelvee:- um ah, they guide by the command of allah. 
    sunni:- if leaving this religion without an infallible imam at all times so that he can clarify, expound, deliver and protect this religion is against allah's lutf(kindness), then why didn't Allah command him to come out of 1200 years of ghaybah and start doing those things. Don't you think Allah keeping the imam for 1200 years of occultation is more against his lutf
    Twelver :- um ah it's the rijs in you which is keeping you away from ahlul bayt, um ah silence is the best reply to a fool, um ah khidr and isa, um ah, your lineage  bla bla bla
     
  5. Haha
    sunni muslim got a reaction from Muslim2010 in Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary   
    First get educated on the topic of imamah in order to debate me on this topic rather than wasting my time. Read any of your books of usool, and read the definition there. It says there must be an imam at all times to clarify as it is against Allah's lutf according to the shia. It is against their intellect that God will leave mankind without an imam at any given time.  According to them, there can be no time that earth can be without an infallible imam, so that he may clarify the religion, as it is against Allah's lutf that he will leave his religion without an infallible imam at any given time. So it does mean that he need to be present at all time. How the heck will he clarify when he is out of touch with humanity and muslims can't even ask him anything. the fact is that you don't even know a damn thing about this topic and you keep spewing the same nonsense here. If leaving this religion without an imam, and leave it in the hands of fallible people is against God's lutf, then leaving it with an hidden imam who could neither benifit us in the matters of religion, heck we can't even ask him a fiqh issue, is also against God's lutf. Go ask your marja that you follow, ask him whether shia believe that there is a need of imam at all time Or not, and ask him what is the intellectual reason for that. 
  6. Disagree
    sunni muslim got a reaction from Muslim2010 in Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary   
    Twelvers :- Islam was sent down to mankind in order to rectify them and to give them a set of principles of action and belief to follow in order that they may attain success and in order that they may be tested. One of the most important aspects of this revelation and gift is the Sharia. The state of the Sharia today in both the Sunni and Shia madhabs is in a state of confusion and ijithad based upon speculative sources. This is because fiqh (jurisprudence) covers so many aspects of life and has potentially an infinite amount of different unique cases that is is impossible that a compendium of hadith could contain all of these issues, nor is it possible that any type of usul system using general principles can dictate the formulation of these potentially infinite specific laws, not to mention that much of the Sharia if not almost all is based upon khabar wahad(single reports). Thus logical necessity dictates that an imam must be present in order that he may clarify and give the believers proper instruction, we know this is true because the alternative means that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has revealed a religion that has a lacking in it, and this is impossible. The principle of Adl(justice) dictates that Allah has latf (grace) in that he has made it an obligation upon himself to complete this religion and to do what is best for the guidance of mankind. If having an imam is for the best and the most advantageous for mankind to follow Islam then it is logically necessary that he would appoint such an imam.
    Also twelvers :- It is true that their task is to guide us in Qur'an and Sunnah, but it does not mean that the execution of the task must be actively ongoing.   What a silly madhab indeed.    
  7. Haha
    sunni muslim got a reaction from Muslim2010 in Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary   
    Funny how the topic of this thread shifted from imamah to a completely irrelevant topic. When you can't defend a core belief which is very weak, just change the topic. 
    Btw, the narration quoted by 'debate follower' is authentic according to shia standards. Challenge me if you want me to prove that it is authentic if you want. Some random guy believing it is not true doesn't hold any worth. By that logic shia shouldn't quote fabricated stories of house burning of sayyeda fatima, because sunnis don't believe it to be true. 
    And also, imamah is still false, and ghaybah is in absolute contradiction to it. 
  8. Disagree
    sunni muslim got a reaction from Muslim2010 in Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary   
    It is the twelver who can't understand the concept of imamah. First the shia say there must be an imam at all times to become a guide in religious matters so that the Quran and sunnah transmit to us without any mistake.  They believe that the imam must be infallible because he is the sole representative of Islam and sole expounder of it. Then they also believe that for some mysterious reason the imam went into occultation for 1200 years, within which shia couldn't benifit from him anything in religious matters. Nor in hadith, nor in quranic sciences, fiqh, not in anything. This is a contradiction which even a 5 year old can understand. 
     
    Exactly. You just destroyed the concept of imamah yourself. This is what we are trying to make you understand. There is no need of an infallible imam at all times which is in contrast to your concept of imamah, that there must be an imam at all times to guide the humanity. 
  9. Haha
    sunni muslim got a reaction from Muslim2010 in Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary   
    Sunni : prove me intellectually that there must be an imam at all time. 
    Twelver :- Imamah is an intellectual necessity. We all know how quran and sunnah does not contain detailed rulings, so our intellect says that Allah should  send an infallible imam alongside quran and sunnah at all times who would explain religious rulings, protect it, explain us quran and sunnah. How could sunnis even ask this. How could sunnis believe that Allah could leave this religion without an infallible guide so that Muslims get the perfect, free from mistake, pure version of Islam and perfect guidance in fiqh, hadeeth, tafseer etc. Seriously believing otherwise of the twelver imamah is an insult to intellect and is against Allah's kindness. How can Allah leave this religion in the hands of fallible people who could unintentionally destroy the correct version of Islam. 
    Sunni :- then why did Allah deprive humanity from direct contact of the imam for 1200 years for some mysterious reason who could explain them their religion instead he leave his religion in the hands of fallible ayatullahs. 
    Twelver :- ah um well guidance is of two types, tashrii and takwini, um ah you are a wahabi umawi nasbi um ah it's the rijs in you which is not enabling you to understand um ah saqifa um ah a kid like you always demand the moon for playing bla bla bla. 
    May Allah shower his blessings upon his beloved prophet, his family and his companions. 
     
  10. Haha
    sunni muslim got a reaction from Hasani Samnani in Prove me that the Imamate is true   
    Imamah is false. Watch my thread named ' is there any intellectual necessity of imamah' and see for yourself how weak thet concept is. 
  11. My Prayers
    sunni muslim got a reaction from Hasani Samnani in Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary   
    Nice try. But in this case, your 'grapes' don't look delicious. 
    Keep trying
     
  12. Haha
    sunni muslim got a reaction from Hasani Samnani in Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary   
    Nice try. Try again. 
    And also, your concept of imamah is still false. And imamah and ghaybah are still contradictory beliefs. 
  13. Disagree
    sunni muslim got a reaction from Hasani Samnani in Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary   
    Twelvers :- Islam was sent down to mankind in order to rectify them and to give them a set of principles of action and belief to follow in order that they may attain success and in order that they may be tested. One of the most important aspects of this revelation and gift is the Sharia. The state of the Sharia today in both the Sunni and Shia madhabs is in a state of confusion and ijithad based upon speculative sources. This is because fiqh (jurisprudence) covers so many aspects of life and has potentially an infinite amount of different unique cases that is is impossible that a compendium of hadith could contain all of these issues, nor is it possible that any type of usul system using general principles can dictate the formulation of these potentially infinite specific laws, not to mention that much of the Sharia if not almost all is based upon khabar wahad(single reports). Thus logical necessity dictates that an imam must be present in order that he may clarify and give the believers proper instruction, we know this is true because the alternative means that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has revealed a religion that has a lacking in it, and this is impossible. The principle of Adl(justice) dictates that Allah has latf (grace) in that he has made it an obligation upon himself to complete this religion and to do what is best for the guidance of mankind. If having an imam is for the best and the most advantageous for mankind to follow Islam then it is logically necessary that he would appoint such an imam.
    Also twelvers :- It is true that their task is to guide us in Qur'an and Sunnah, but it does not mean that the execution of the task must be actively ongoing.   What a silly madhab indeed.    
  14. Completely Agree
    sunni muslim got a reaction from Debate follower in Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary   
    Funny how the topic of this thread shifted from imamah to a completely irrelevant topic. When you can't defend a core belief which is very weak, just change the topic. 
    Btw, the narration quoted by 'debate follower' is authentic according to shia standards. Challenge me if you want me to prove that it is authentic if you want. Some random guy believing it is not true doesn't hold any worth. By that logic shia shouldn't quote fabricated stories of house burning of sayyeda fatima, because sunnis don't believe it to be true. 
    And also, imamah is still false, and ghaybah is in absolute contradiction to it. 
  15. Disagree
    sunni muslim got a reaction from Muslim2010 in Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary   
    Nice try. Try again. 
    And also, your concept of imamah is still false. And imamah and ghaybah are still contradictory beliefs. 
  16. Completely Agree
    sunni muslim reacted to Zaidism in Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary   
    A Sunni caliphate is unlike a Zaydī Imāmah, since the conditions of a Zaydī Imāmah are - in a nutshell - the absolute uprightness of the Imām. Whereas, Sunnis don’t necessitate the same stringent conditions that Zaydīs maintain. 
    You didn’t answer the question, I understand that our views in Imāmah differ. Yours serves nothing, and this is an objective fact that even your scholars attest to. 
    As for “in principle” what exactly is that principle you’re referring to, because if one were to peruse all your works of Uṣūl they would find that Imāmah is fundamentally for the sake of guidance. 
    With the occultation you have failed on guidance, and you have failed in leadership. The only reason anyone is a Shīʿī to begin with is because they think being a Shīʿa is being Pro-ʿAlid, and advancing Amīr al-Muʾminīn ʿAlī b. Abī Ṭālib. 
    With your Imāmah you are sitting on straws, and that is putting it lightly. 
    History is against you, the Qurʾān is against you, reason is against you, pragmatism is against you, Ḥadīth is against you. You have no leg to stand on. 
     
  17. Haha
    sunni muslim got a reaction from Muslim2010 in Prove me that the Imamate is true   
    Imamah is false. Watch my thread named ' is there any intellectual necessity of imamah' and see for yourself how weak thet concept is. 
  18. Haha
    sunni muslim got a reaction from Muslim2010 in Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary   
    1 month over. Still can't prove intellectually that if there is a need of imam at all times to explain religious text then why don't the 12 th one stop being in occultation and start explaining religious texts and start benifitting Muslims in religious matters. 
    Indeed, one just need to use his brain for 5 full seconds and boom, shia core beliefs are destroyed. 
  19. Haha
    sunni muslim got a reaction from Ashvazdanghe in Prove me that the Imamate is true   
    Imamah is false. Watch my thread named ' is there any intellectual necessity of imamah' and see for yourself how weak thet concept is. 
  20. Haha
    sunni muslim got a reaction from Ashvazdanghe in Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary   
    1 month over. Still can't prove intellectually that if there is a need of imam at all times to explain religious text then why don't the 12 th one stop being in occultation and start explaining religious texts and start benifitting Muslims in religious matters. 
    Indeed, one just need to use his brain for 5 full seconds and boom, shia core beliefs are destroyed. 
  21. Haha
    sunni muslim got a reaction from Abu Nur in Prove me that the Imamate is true   
    Imamah is false. Watch my thread named ' is there any intellectual necessity of imamah' and see for yourself how weak thet concept is. 
  22. Haha
    sunni muslim got a reaction from Cool in Prophets, Imams and taqiyyah   
    Shia believe that prophets are not allowed to perform taqiyyah under any circumstances, while imams are allowed to do that. Give me one rational explanation as to why is that. 
  23. Haha
    sunni muslim got a reaction from guess in Prophets, Imams and taqiyyah   
    Shia believe that prophets are not allowed to perform taqiyyah under any circumstances, while imams are allowed to do that. Give me one rational explanation as to why is that. 
  24. Disagree
    sunni muslim got a reaction from Hameedeh in Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary   
    Imamah is still false. Cry as much as you want
  25. Disagree
    sunni muslim got a reaction from Muslim2010 in Is there an intellectual reason why imamah is necessary   
    All these ayaat doesn't prove anything regarding your imam. There is no verse which says that there is a 12th imam who is guiding. 
     
    Lol. First prove from the direct verse of quran Or hadith of the prophet that the 12 th imam is guiding the shia while being in ghayb before asking your opponent to prove otherwise. 
     
    Nah. The concept that the 12 th imam is guiding the shias itself is not proven from quran, sunnah Or even intellect. 
     
     
     
     
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