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In the Name of God بسم الله

sunni muslim

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Everything posted by sunni muslim

  1. Twelver :- it is obligatory upon Allah to appoint an imam at all times. Sunni :- why? Twelver:- One of the most important aspects of this revelation and gift is the Sharia. The state of the Sharia today in both the Sunni and Shia madhabs is in a state of confusion and ijithad based upon speculative sources. This is because fiqh (jurisprudence) covers so many aspects of life and has potentially an infinite amount of different unique cases that is is impossible that a compendium of hadith could contain all of these issues, nor is it possible that any type of usul system using general principles can dictate the formulation of these potentially infinite specific laws, not to mention that much of the Sharia if not almost all is based upon khabar wahad(single reports). Thus logical necessity dictates that an imam must be present in order that he may clarify and give the believers proper instruction, we know this is true because the alternative means that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has revealed a religion that has a lacking in it, and this is impossible. The principle of Adl(justice) dictates that Allah has latf (grace) in that he has made it an obligation upon himself to complete this religion and to do what is best for the guidance of mankind. If having an imam is for the best and the most advantageous for mankind to follow Islam then it is logically necessary that he would appoint such an imam Sunni:- then where he is? Twelvee:- um ah, they guide by the command of allah. sunni:- if leaving this religion without an infallible imam at all times so that he can clarify, expound, deliver and protect this religion is against allah's lutf(kindness), then why didn't Allah command him to come out of 1200 years of ghaybah and start doing those things. Don't you think Allah keeping the imam for 1200 years of occultation is more against his lutf Twelver :- um ah it's the rijs in you which is keeping you away from ahlul bayt, um ah silence is the best reply to a fool, um ah khidr and isa, um ah, your lineage bla bla bla
  2. Why are you making fun of 1200 years ghaybah of our imam, prophet (عليه السلام) was in ghaybah for 40 years of his life -- shia Literally, people taking twelvers seriously is beyond me
  3. If it is debunked in 2016 then post the refutation here. And its you who changed the topic. You shifted the topic from imamah to a completely different topic. And it's me who can't take you seriously. Like I was ignoring you for a long time because I don't reply to such "intellectual" responses that you make but it's like you need some dose. So listen, regardless I accept prophet as my imam or not, it still doesn't support anything that you believe. Whenever I say 'imamah is false' I'm talking about shia concept of imamah which says there must be an infallible imam at all time to clarify, expound, deliver and protect the religion and Allah is obliged to appoint such an imamat all times and believing otherwise is against Allah's lutf and kindness. Even a five year old can understand this, that when I say 'imamah is false' then I'm talking about shia concept of imamah. That's why I wasn't replying to you, since I don't waste my time debating 'geniuses' like you who can't even understand this. Me believing prohet Muhammad, prophet ibrahim as an imam or not, doesn't support anything of your concept. If the shia believe that there must be an imam at all times to convey, protect, deliver, clarify, expound the religion, then the imam couldn't leave this religion and go into hiding for some mysterious reason for 1200 years, while in the meantime shia differ so much among themselves in fiqh issues. If imamah is true, then ghaybah is false, if ghaybah is true then imamah is false. Read this post 2-3 times, memorize every word of this post, understand that the logic is air-tight, cry yourself to sleep and stop wasting my time.
  4. Sorry to break your heart, the narration he is quoting is authentic according to your rijal standards. All the narrators are thiqa (trustworthy) according to your rijali scholars like najashi and tusi. Try again.
  5. First get educated on the topic of imamah in order to debate me on this topic rather than wasting my time. Read any of your books of usool, and read the definition there. It says there must be an imam at all times to clarify as it is against Allah's lutf according to the shia. It is against their intellect that God will leave mankind without an imam at any given time. According to them, there can be no time that earth can be without an infallible imam, so that he may clarify the religion, as it is against Allah's lutf that he will leave his religion without an infallible imam at any given time. So it does mean that he need to be present at all time. How the heck will he clarify when he is out of touch with humanity and muslims can't even ask him anything. the fact is that you don't even know a damn thing about this topic and you keep spewing the same nonsense here. If leaving this religion without an imam, and leave it in the hands of fallible people is against God's lutf, then leaving it with an hidden imam who could neither benifit us in the matters of religion, heck we can't even ask him a fiqh issue, is also against God's lutf. Go ask your marja that you follow, ask him whether shia believe that there is a need of imam at all time Or not, and ask him what is the intellectual reason for that.
  6. Twelvers :- Islam was sent down to mankind in order to rectify them and to give them a set of principles of action and belief to follow in order that they may attain success and in order that they may be tested. One of the most important aspects of this revelation and gift is the Sharia. The state of the Sharia today in both the Sunni and Shia madhabs is in a state of confusion and ijithad based upon speculative sources. This is because fiqh (jurisprudence) covers so many aspects of life and has potentially an infinite amount of different unique cases that is is impossible that a compendium of hadith could contain all of these issues, nor is it possible that any type of usul system using general principles can dictate the formulation of these potentially infinite specific laws, not to mention that much of the Sharia if not almost all is based upon khabar wahad(single reports). Thus logical necessity dictates that an imam must be present in order that he may clarify and give the believers proper instruction, we know this is true because the alternative means that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has revealed a religion that has a lacking in it, and this is impossible. The principle of Adl(justice) dictates that Allah has latf (grace) in that he has made it an obligation upon himself to complete this religion and to do what is best for the guidance of mankind. If having an imam is for the best and the most advantageous for mankind to follow Islam then it is logically necessary that he would appoint such an imam. Also twelvers :- It is true that their task is to guide us in Qur'an and Sunnah, but it does not mean that the execution of the task must be actively ongoing. What a silly madhab indeed.
  7. Funny how the topic of this thread shifted from imamah to a completely irrelevant topic. When you can't defend a core belief which is very weak, just change the topic. Btw, the narration quoted by 'debate follower' is authentic according to shia standards. Challenge me if you want me to prove that it is authentic if you want. Some random guy believing it is not true doesn't hold any worth. By that logic shia shouldn't quote fabricated stories of house burning of sayyeda fatima, because sunnis don't believe it to be true. And also, imamah is still false, and ghaybah is in absolute contradiction to it.
  8. It is the twelver who can't understand the concept of imamah. First the shia say there must be an imam at all times to become a guide in religious matters so that the Quran and sunnah transmit to us without any mistake. They believe that the imam must be infallible because he is the sole representative of Islam and sole expounder of it. Then they also believe that for some mysterious reason the imam went into occultation for 1200 years, within which shia couldn't benifit from him anything in religious matters. Nor in hadith, nor in quranic sciences, fiqh, not in anything. This is a contradiction which even a 5 year old can understand. Exactly. You just destroyed the concept of imamah yourself. This is what we are trying to make you understand. There is no need of an infallible imam at all times which is in contrast to your concept of imamah, that there must be an imam at all times to guide the humanity.
  9. Nice try. But in this case, your 'grapes' don't look delicious. Keep trying
  10. Indeed. Because it is irrelevant to the debate. Stick to the topic and try to answer the obvious contradiction between twelver shia imamah and ghaybah instead of questioning irrelevant questions. The topic is 'is there an intellectual necessity of imamah' not 'who is the imam of sunni muslims'. And the answer to that question is prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). He is the greatest imam of mankind.
  11. Nice try. Try again. And also, your concept of imamah is still false. And imamah and ghaybah are still contradictory beliefs.
  12. Exactly, these twelvers accept any excuse given by their scholars for occultation
  13. Sunni : prove me intellectually that there must be an imam at all time. Twelver :- Imamah is an intellectual necessity. We all know how quran and sunnah does not contain detailed rulings, so our intellect says that Allah should send an infallible imam alongside quran and sunnah at all times who would explain religious rulings, protect it, explain us quran and sunnah. How could sunnis even ask this. How could sunnis believe that Allah could leave this religion without an infallible guide so that Muslims get the perfect, free from mistake, pure version of Islam and perfect guidance in fiqh, hadeeth, tafseer etc. Seriously believing otherwise of the twelver imamah is an insult to intellect and is against Allah's kindness. How can Allah leave this religion in the hands of fallible people who could unintentionally destroy the correct version of Islam. Sunni :- then why did Allah deprive humanity from direct contact of the imam for 1200 years for some mysterious reason who could explain them their religion instead he leave his religion in the hands of fallible ayatullahs. Twelver :- ah um well guidance is of two types, tashrii and takwini, um ah you are a wahabi umawi nasbi um ah it's the rijs in you which is not enabling you to understand um ah saqifa um ah a kid like you always demand the moon for playing bla bla bla. May Allah shower his blessings upon his beloved prophet, his family and his companions.
  14. Imamah is false. Watch my thread named ' is there any intellectual necessity of imamah' and see for yourself how weak thet concept is.
  15. 1 month over. Still can't prove intellectually that if there is a need of imam at all times to explain religious text then why don't the 12 th one stop being in occultation and start explaining religious texts and start benifitting Muslims in religious matters. Indeed, one just need to use his brain for 5 full seconds and boom, shia core beliefs are destroyed.
  16. Shia believe that prophets are not allowed to perform taqiyyah under any circumstances, while imams are allowed to do that. Give me one rational explanation as to why is that.
  17. I already responded to that faulty analysis earliers. Let me summarize again. - Rasoulallah was not talking to the English people in a modern parliamentary system, nor was he talking to the people of the US (which has a president, but didn't exist at the time), nor was he talking to the people of Rome or Persia, who had a set tradition of appointing kings And i already refuted your point by quoting your narrations how imams appoint their successors. All your refutatiin was that prophet was both rasool and imam. And it still doesn't matter. Prophet could easily say ali is the imam after me. Or I appointed ali as his successor. If he said that clearly, we wouldn't be having this debate in the first place. Imagine debating over a clear hadith like ali is my successor. I challenge you to provide any historical evidence whether from Arabia or any other country that any political leader ever appointed his successor by saying whoever I'm moula so and so is his maula.
  18. If someone have some argument which is worthy of debunking, then he may come forward.
  19. From now on, I will only debunk what is related to the topic which is ' is there any intellectual necessity of imamah'. Anything which is unrelated to the topic is not worthy of me being dwbunked
  20. First read the narration genius. Rafi' at tai narrated that from abu bakr. Abu bakr narrated what umar said. Read that clearly and don't waste my time.
  21. All these ayaat doesn't prove anything regarding your imam. There is no verse which says that there is a 12th imam who is guiding. Lol. First prove from the direct verse of quran Or hadith of the prophet that the 12 th imam is guiding the shia while being in ghayb before asking your opponent to prove otherwise. Nah. The concept that the 12 th imam is guiding the shias itself is not proven from quran, sunnah Or even intellect.
  22. 1- As per history of Islam 11 earlier Imams from the progeny of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) were killed and martyred by the oppressors of the ummah and tyrant rulers. Thus Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has kept back his last sign keeping away from our eyes in occultation period. The same is true for the prophet Esa (عليه السلام) that is alive and away from our eyes Again this is utter nonsense. They were killed because at that banu abbas and corrupt leaders was in the authority. It is not the case now. Now the followers of the 12th one rule a entire country, they have soldiers to fight, military weapons and what not. If despite this, he wants to stay in ghaybah, then there is no need of infallible guide at all time to expound the religion and clarify the rulings, the imam has not benifitted you shias I anything, not in fiqh not in hadith, not in taseer, nasikh wal mansookh no nothing. If there is no need of infallible guide at all times then the fundamemtal belief of shia is false. This is a contradiction. You believe that it is against Allah's lutf that he leave this religion without any infallible guide. If you say that ghaybah is a test then it is also against Allah's lutf, that he made it obligatory upon him to appoint a imam to explain the religion and then start testing the believers by making the hujjah go into occultation. Stop humiliating yourself in front of me. Your imam is doing his job in while in ghayb. He is expounding the religion and clarifying the details of the religion in ghayb. Nice joke. Your belief is that there must be an imam at all time to expound the religion, and clarify the rulings of quran and sunnah. The imam is not doing this. That means your concept of imamah is false.
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