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In the Name of God بسم الله

zahralzu

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Posts posted by zahralzu

  1. Just now, MaisumAli said:

    But how does that negate the fact that they thought of But Bakr and Umar that way? I know they will attempt mental gymnastics to heal the broken relationship between Ali and Abu Bakr, but it is irrelevant to me, did Ali(عليه السلام) at any time think of Abu Bakr as such?

    their gymnastics say he only used to think that for a brief 6 months but changed his mind based on how things go after that, and judging by umar dying on good terms with ali (عليه السلام) as evident from sermon 227 of nahjul balagha whereby the imam praises umar 

  2. 24 minutes ago, MaisumAli said:

    Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Hadith say:

     

    Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest

     

    More specifically:

     

    "So BOTH of you thought of HIM to be a liar, sinful, treacherous"

     

    Either my eyes decive me, or TSD is playing some major league mental gymnastics

    yes it says that, but it also says that abbas thought of ali as those things, and that umar says that what they're saying about eachother is not true and apparently allah is against it according to him, and that this was just a one off argument because ali (عليه السلام) praises umar on his death bed so they apparently made up

  3. On 11/2/2020 at 8:53 PM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

    Lol. I don't know why people do this.

    Their fabrications (traditions) aren't a hujjah for us. 

    If thats so then allow me to quote Sermon 3 from nahaj ul balagha to refute this argument.

    Would they accept a hadith from shia source? Then why are we supposed to accept hadith from sunni source?

    shia books also have ali (عليه السلام) praising umar on his death bed, this is so confusingImageImage

  4. 16 minutes ago, Labbayka said:

    Imam Ali also thought of Abu Bakr to be a liar sinful and dishonest person during his life and up to his death. A Sunni will say haha its only in relation to Fadak and they sorted the dispute but the actual narration refuted this idea.

     

    Sahih Muslim 1757 c

    It is reported by Zuhri that this tradition was narrated to him by Malik b. Aus who said:

    Umar b. al-Khattab sent for me and I came to him when the day had advanced. I found him in his house sitting on his bare bed-stead, reclining on a leather pillow. He said (to me): Malik, some people of your tribe have hastened to me (with a request for help). I have ordered a little money for them. Take it and distribute it among them. I said: I wish you had ordered somebody else to do this job. He said: Malik, take it (and do what you have been told). At this moment (his man-servant) Yarfa' came in and said: Commander of the Faithful, what do you say about Uthman, Abd al-Rabman b. 'Auf, Zubair and Sa'd (who have come to seek an audience with you)? He said: Yes, and permitted them. so they entered. Then he (Yarfa') came again and said: What do you say about 'Ali and Abbas (who are present at the door)? He said: Yes, and permitted them to enter. Abbas said: Commander of the Faithful, decide (the dispute) between me and this sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar. The people (who were present) also said: Yes. Commander of the Faithful, do decide (the dispute) and have mercy on them. Malik b. Aus said: I could well imagine that they had sent them in advance for this purpose (by 'Ali and Abbas). 'Umar said: Wait and be patient. I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They said: Yes. Then he turned to Abbas and 'Ali and said: I adjure you both by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They (too) said: Yes. (Then) Umar said: Allah, the Glorious and Exalted, had done to His Messenger (ﷺ) a special favour that He has not done to anyone else except him. He quoted the Qur'anic verse:" What Allah has bestowed upon His Apostle from (the properties) of the people of township is for Allah and His Messenger". The narrator said: I do not know whether he also recited the previous verse or not. Umar continued: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) distrbuted among you the properties abandoned by Banu Nadir. By Allah, he never preferred himself over you and never appropriated anything to your exclusion. (After a fair distribution in this way) this property was left over. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) would meet from its income his annual expenditure, and what remained would be deposited in the Bait-ul-Mal. (Continuing further) he said: I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained. Do you know this? They said: Yes. Then he adjured Abbas and 'All as he had adjured the other persons and asked: Do you both know this? They said: Yes. He said: When the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) passed away, Abu Bakr said:" I am the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ)." Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to Hadrat 'Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to 'Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. I became the guardian of this property. Then you as well as he came to me. Both of you have come and your purpose is identical. You said: Entrust the property to us. I said: If you wish that I should entrust it to you, it will be on the condition that both of you will undertake to abide by a pledge made with Allah that you will use it in the same way as the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) used it. So both of you got it. He said: Wasn't it like this? They said: Yes. He said: Then you have (again) come to me with the request that I should adjudge between you. No, by Allah. I will not give any other judgment except this until the arrival of the Doomsday. If you are unable to hold the property on this condition, return it to me.
     
     
    Now the Sunni position is that Imam Ali forgave Abu Bakr they became good with each other blah blah blah. But this authentic hadith which also features in Bukhari (with the words replaced with so and so) show us
     
    1) Imam Ali thought Umar and Abu Bakr to be dishonest 
     
    2) Even if it just Fadak, the narration and the highlighted parts so that because Abu Bakr was in control of it Umar is saying Imam Ali held this view all through Abu Bakrs reign, now he’s passed away he holds the view against Umar now as Umar is in control
     
    So I think what you have is two contradictory views and the Sunni position of trying to suggest the Rashidun were all friends is ridiculous, Imam Ali AS actual gave one of the perpetrators of Uthmans killing a military commander position in his army in Jamal and didn’t punish him

    sunni defense made a video about this and said we shias take this hadith out of context 

    in the video they say the hadith actually talks about how ali (عليه السلام) and abbas were having an argument and both approached umar to solve that arguement, and abbas tells umar to chose between him (abba) and the liar, sinful, trecherous, dishonest (ali; according to abbas); and so umar says both of you two (abbas and ali) thought of abu bakr as a liar, sinful, trecherous, dishonest, and you two also think of me (umar) as that...

     

     

     

  5. A few narrations by the imam from sunni sources that lead sunnis into believing abu bakr is better than ali (عليه السلام) and use against shias, did he actually speak highly of abu bakr and umar? how do you answer to these?

     

    ❝A woman came to the Prophet (ﷺ) and spoke to him about something and he told her to return to him. She said, "O Rasulullah! If I come and do not find you?" (meaning, "...if you die?") The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "If you should not find me, then go to Abu Bakr."❞ — Jubair bin Mutim (d. 57h) via Bukhari 62/11
    ❝...I feel like calling Abu Bakr and his son to appoint him as my successor lest people should say something or wish for something else. (But) Allah will prevent (anyone else from claiming the Caliphate) and the believers will insist (on Abu Bakr).❞ — The Prophet (ﷺ) via Bukhari 93/77
    ❝Follow the Two (who will rule) after me, Abu Bakr and 'Umar.❞ — The Prophet (ﷺ) via Tirmidhi 3662
    ❝I asked my father (Ali ibn Abi Talib), "Who are the best people after Rasulullah (ﷺ)?" He said, "Abu Bakr." I asked, "Who then?" He said, "Then `Umar. " I thought he would say Uthman, so I said, "Then you?" He said, "I am only an ordinary person."❞ — Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiya (d. 81h) via Bukhari 62/21
    ❝When the Prophet (ﷺ) died, we reflected on our situation, realizing that the prophet had put Abu Bakr forward for prayer. And so we were pleased to choose for our wordly affairs the same man that the Prophet was pleased to choose for our religious affairs. Thus it was that we put Abu Bakr forward for the Caliphate.❞ — Ali ibn Abi Talib (d. 40h) via At-Tabaqat 3/183
    ❝A man said to Ali ibn Abi Talib: "We hear you say in your khutbah, 'O Allah! Grant us righteousness through the means you granted it to the rightly-guided caliphs'; who are these caliphs?" Ali’s eyes became wet with tears, and he said: "They are my beloved ones, Abu Bakr and Umar, the exemplars of guidance, the sheikhs of Islam, the two notables of the tribe of Quraysh who deserved to be followed after the death of the Prophet (ﷺ). He who followed them is safeguarded, and anyone who treads their path is guided to the path of righteousness. A person who clings to them becomes a member of Allah’s party."❞ — Narrated Jaafar as-Sadiq (d. 148h) via his father in at-Tuyuriyat
    ❝I entered on ‘Ali ibn abi Talib during his emirate and said: “I passed by some folks who were talking about Abu Bakr and Umar and saying that you have a deep hatred for both of them, one of those folks is Abdullah ibn Saba (founder of Shi’ism)." Ali said: “I do not understand this wicked man (Ibn Saba), I seek refuge in Allah from this matter and I only have deep beautiful respect for them.” Then he sent after Ibn Saba and exiled him to al-Madaen (In Yemen) and said: “He will not live in the same land with me.” He then went to his Mimbar and when the people gathered he complimented both of them and said nothing but good things about them. then he said: “If it reaches me that anyone prefers me over them then I shall lash them as they do with the slandering liar.”❞ — Narrated Suwaid ibn Ghaflah in al-Kifayah, 376
    ❝No one comes to me, preferring me over Abu Bakr and Umar except that I will lash him with the punishment of slanderer.❞ — Ali ibn Abi Talib (d. 40h) via al-Furgan Baynal Haq wal-Batil, 21-22
    ❝The best of mankind after Rasulullah (ﷺ) are Abu Bakr and Umar. Love of me will never be united with hatred of Abu Bakr and Umar in the heart of a believer.❞ — Ali ibn Abi Talib (d. 40h) via Tabrani, al-Awsat
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