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In the Name of God بسم الله

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  1. Apologies again for meandering away from the main (and very interesting) discussion – I promise that this is my last post on this issue. One of the main mission of Prophets (peace be upon them) and Imams (may Allah be pleased with them) is to guide Mankind at large and their followers specifically to the right path if there any differences among them. This they did very conscientiously and diligently as long they were on this Earth among their followers. According to 12er Shias the ‘Raison d'etre’ for 12th Imam’s long life till end of times is to Guide his followers in all aspects of their lives. History clearly shows that this is missing in all decisive moments in 12er history. Nothing more to add.
  2. A very interesting and high-quality debate. Pardon me for my interjection, dare I ask, shouldn’t the 12th Imam be guiding them and clearing their differences to keep all on the right track?
  3. I rest my case! And I agree with that Imam Muhammad Al Baqir (may Allah be pleased with him) was great man, source of great knowledge and teacher of great personalities.
  4. Assalama alaykum respected sister. No one chooses their own parents and be assured that your parents even though they were born as syeds, never lived and behaved like syeds should. Among Shias being a Syed is an honour and carries stature but your parents didn’t live up to it. So, this shouldn’t really bother you. Alhamdulilah! This is blessing from Allah Almighty to take you out of this toxic situation. Great. So, now you are assured that you are not doing anything that is against your faith. I really don’t see any reason for you to cry and be miserable. Allah Almighty made you find an amazing non-syed SHIA whose family you respect, whose knowledge you admire, his personality has won you over, very sympathetic and supporting elder brother and to top it all a mother-in-law who is very educated women. Dear respected sister, go ahead with Allah Almighty’s Blessings, marry this amazing man with your elder brother’s support. Prove to your mother-in-law you are the answer to her prayers that her son should get a great wife. Be like her daughter. Keep in touch with your parents always showing them respect. They will realise too late what a wonderful daughter they have. May Allah Almighty bless you with all the happiness you deserve - Congratulations from me in advance!
  5. Assalama alaykum brother, I wouldn’t be that generous. With some coaxing and persuasion, I’ll settle for 15% to 85%. Though fairly reliable resources quote even lesser figures. Of the total Muslim population, 10-13% are Shia Muslims and 87-90% are Sunni Muslims. Most Shias (between 68% and 80%) live in just four countries: Iran, Pakistan, India and Iraq. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2009/10/07/mapping-the-global-muslim-population/ Shia constitute about 10% of all Muslims, and globally their population is estimated at between 154 and 200 million. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16047709 Of course, Shia sites quote much higher figure and have stretched it to 25% According to Pew Research Institute, A comprehensive demographic study of more than 200 countries finds that there are 1.6 billion Muslims of all ages living in the world today, representing 23% of an estimated 2009 world population of 6.8 billion. Shias are around 20% of the world Muslim population. Most Shias (between 68% and 80%) live in just four countries: Iran, Pakistan, India and Iraq. https://shianumbers.com/shia-muslims-population.html Shias being a minority, always side with minority being on the right. We have been in this discussion before. So, let’s apply the 20 – 80 Rule (The Pareto principle) within Shia. Get my point? Did you know prior to 1500 CE Azerbaijan and Iran were overwhelmingly Sunni nations? (someone is going to be rattled with this)
  6. With that logic, 80% among the Shia are off track. 5ers or 7ers hold sway
  7. Typical example of self-denial mode Don’t defend the undefendable. O believers! Stand firm for justice as witnesses for Allah even if it is against yourselves, your parents, or close relatives. Be they rich or poor, Allah is best to ensure their interests. So do not let your desires cause you to deviate ˹from justice˺. If you distort the testimony or refuse to give it, then ˹know that˺ Allah is certainly All-Aware of what you do. 135 an-Nisa Maybe it’s other way around. It very well could be that the members of the Gasht-e Ershad (Guidance Patrols) themselves are suffering from some mental order such Sadism and are budding into Psychopaths.
  8. Brother - Also look the world around you and you’ll see billions of people in much worse condition than you think you are in. People are stuck as refugees in strange lands away from loved ones. Millions have been made homeless by floods and lost everything they possessed and now are in the open surrounded by water and exposed the elements. If you look at their eyes – they show pain, loss of family members, houses, friends – most of the eyes show hopelessness and despair. They have to struggle for years just to survive. Those who led comfortable lives are now fighting others just for a meal for themselves or their loved ones. Their world and life just upside down. Brother, if you reflect on what they are going through. Your problems will suddenly seem to be manageable and with time completely disappear. In sha Allah. The Blessed Prophet (may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Look at those who are below you, and do not look at those who are above you, for that is more likely to hold you back from belittling the blessings that Allah has bestowed upon you." Al-Bukhari and Muslim.
  9. Brother Lion of Shia Posters here have given you really good advice. Have faith in Allah Almighty And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient. (Quran 2:155) And Allah Almighty has also assured that relief is there “Allah does not burden a soul beyond that it can bear…” (Qur'an, 2:286) With Every Difficulty, There is Relief.”5:94 Surah al-Inshirah Then recite Surah Ad-Duha slowly with understanding each word and sentence. Though this Surah was directly addressing the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) this message was for all Muslims. Read it as if it is meant for you - Your Lord has not taken leave of you, nor has He detested Surah Ad-Duha In the name of Allah, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful. By the morning brightness And [by] the night when it covers with darkness, Your Lord has not taken leave of you, [O Muhammad], nor has He detested [you]. And the Hereafter is better for you than the first [life]. And your Lord is going to give you, and you will be satisfied. Did He not find you an orphan and give [you] refuge? And He found you lost and guided [you], And He found you poor and made [you] self-sufficient. So as for the orphan, do not oppress [him]. And as for the petitioner, do not repel [him]. And as for the favour of your Lord, do announce (it) In sha Allah all will be well.
  10. Let me you to refer to Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha (A letter sent by Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) to the people of various provinces, giving them the causes of the Battle of Siffin.) – Where Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) has unambiguously addressed Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar bin Al Khattab and Hz. Uthman bin Affan (may Allah Be pleased with them) as IMAMS!!!! “Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be IMAM, it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure. Hz. Ali (may Allah be pleased with him)- has already pointed out rightful Imam with Allah Almighty's pleasure. Glad that you have conceded that he gave the Bayah! May I ask you why he had to wait for this? Hadith from Shia source – From Imam Muhammad Baqir (may Allah be pleased with him) al-Tabrisi narrates from (Imam) Muhammad Baqir that when Usamah had left for Jihad when the Messenger of Allah passed away, the news reached Usamah (and) he returned with his army to Medinah. He (Usamah) saw a great number of people surrounding Abu Bakr; on seeing this, he went to question Ali ibn Abi Talib and asked: “What is this?” Ali ibn Abi Talib replied: “It is exactly what you are seeing!” Usamah asked: “Have you (also) given Baya’ah to him?” Ali ibn Abi Talib replied: “Yes.” (Al-Ihtejaj, Allama Abu Mansur, Ahmad al-Tabrisi p.50: Printed Mashhad, Iran) Sunni source: It has been narrated on the authority of 'A'isha that Fatima and 'Abbas approached Abu Bakr, soliciting transfer of the legacy of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) to them. At that time, they were demanding his (Holy Prophet's) lands at Fadak and his share from Khaibar. Abu Bakr said to them: I have heard from the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). Then he quoted the hadith having nearly the same meaning as the one which has been narrated by Uqail on the authority of al-Zuhri (and which his gone before) except that in his version he said: Then 'Ali stood up, extolled the merits of Abu Bakr mentioned his superiority, and his earlier acceptance of Islam. Then he walked to Abu Bakr and swore allegiance to him. (At this) people turned towards 'Ali and said: you have done the right thing. And they became favourably inclined to 'Ali after he had adopted the proper course of action. Sahih Muslim 1759b This is very long hadith so I am posting the relevant material. ……………. So Abu Bakr entered upon them, and then `Ali uttered Tashah-hud and said (to Abu Bakr), "We know well your superiority and what Allah has given you, and we are not jealous of the good what Allah has bestowed upon you, but you did not consult us in the question of the rule and we thought that we have got a right in it because of our near relationship to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) ." Thereupon Abu Bakr's eyes flowed with tears. And when Abu Bakr spoke, he said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is to keep good relations with the relatives of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) is dearer to me than to keep good relations with my own relatives. But as for the trouble which arose between me and you about his property, I will do my best to spend it according to what is good, and will not leave any rule or regulation which I saw Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) following, in disposing of it, but I will follow." On that `Ali said to Abu Bakr, "I promise to give you the oath of allegiance in this after noon." So, when Abu Bakr had offered the Zuhr prayer, he ascended the pulpit and uttered the Tashah-hud and then mentioned the story of `Ali and his failure to give the oath of allegiance, and excused him, accepting what excuses he had offered; Then `Ali (got up) and praying (to Allah) for forgiveness, he uttered Tashah-hud, praised Abu Bakr's right, and said, that he had not done what he had done because of jealousy of Abu Bakr or as a protest of that Allah had favoured him with. `Ali added, "But we used to consider that we too had some right in this affair (of rulership) and that he (i.e., Abu Bakr) did not consult us in this matter, and therefore caused us to feel sorry." On that all the Muslims became happy and said, "You have done the right thing." The Muslims then became friendly with `Ali as he returned to what the people had done (i.e., giving the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr). Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 4240, 4241 Of course! Don’t you consider Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) infallible Imam? This argument holds no water. (Full of huge glaring holes!!!!) Your claim is that Allah Almighty appointed Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) as a successor to the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and rightly so that ONLY Allah Almighty has the right to take away! Read the following sermon and answer the questions put forward to you in true honesty. Now refer to Sermon 92 of Nahjul Balagha When people decided to swear allegiance at Amir al-mu'minin's hand after the murder of ‘Uthman, he said: “Leave me and seek someone else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you, I would lead you as I know and would not listen to the utterance of any speaker or the reproof of any reprover. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief.” Sermon 92 Nahjul Balagha Now care to answer the following: 1) Can somebody who is appointed to a position by Allah Almighty has the right to say to people: “Leave me and seek someone else”? Did he have the permission to delegate his Divine appointment to anyone people suggested? Would he Say, it is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs? Would he Say, I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief? Would a person who is Divinely appointed to Imamate on his own initiative wash his hands off from this responsibility? How wrong you are!! Hz. Ali ibn Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) has claimed his predecessors as Imams!!!!!! Let me you to refer to Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha (A letter sent by Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) to the people of various provinces, giving them the causes of the Battle of Siffin.) – Where Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) has unambiguously addressed Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar bin Al Khattab and Hz. Uthman bin Affan (may Allah Be pleased with them) as IMAMS!!!! “Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be IMAM, it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure. If anyone keeps away by way of objection or innovation, they will return him to the position from where he kept away. If he refuses, they will fight him for following a course other than that of the believers and Allah will put him back from where he had run away.” Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha إِنَّهُ بَايَعَنِي الْقَوْمُ الَّذِينَ بَايَعُوا أَبَا بَكْر وَعُمَرَ وَعُثْمانَ عَلَى مَا بَايَعُوهُمْ عَلَيْهِ، فَلَمْ يَكُنْ لِلشَّاهِدِ أَنْ يَخْتَارَ، وَلاَ لِلغَائِبِ أَنْ يَرُدَّ، وَإنَّمَا الشُّورَى لِلْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالاْنْصَارِ، فَإِنِ اجْتَمَعُوا عَلَى رَجُل وَسَمَّوْهُ إِمَاماً كَانَ ذلِكَ لله رِضىً، فَإِنْ خَرَجَ عَنْ أَمْرِهِمْ خَارِجٌ بِطَعْن أَوْبِدْعَة رَدُّوهُ إِلَى مَاخَرَجَ منه، فَإِنْ أَبَى قَاتَلُوهُ عَلَى اتِّبَاعِهِ غَيْرَ سَبِيلِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ، وَوَلاَّهُ اللهُ مَا تَوَلَّى Any unbiased person can clearly see that Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) is using the word IMAM for his 3 predecessors (Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar bin Al Khattab and Hz. Uthman bin Affan (may Allah Be pleased with them). Now refer to Arabic version – the actual words uttered by Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him). “If they agree on an individual and take him to be IMAM, it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.” He used the word IMAM – Well knowing all the meanings and implications of this word. Letter 58 Nahjul Balagha A letter sent by Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) to the people of various provinces, giving them the causes of the Battle of Siffin. I am posting Letter 58 from Nahjul Balagha in 2 parts A letter sent by Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) to the people of various provinces, giving them the causes of the Battle of Siffin. Part One The whole thing began thus that we and the Syrians met in an encounter although we believe in one and the same Allah and the same Prophet, and our message in Islam is the same. We did not want them to add anything in the belief in Allah or in acknowledging His Messenger nor did they want us to add any such thing. In fact, there was complete unity except that we differed on the question of `Uthman's blood while we were free of responsibility for it. We suggested to them to appease the situation by calming the temporary irritation and pacifying the people till matters settled down and stabilized when we would gain strength to put matters right. Letter 58 Nahjul Balagha 1) we believe in one and the same Allah and the same Prophet 2) and our message in Islam is the same 3) We did not want them to add anything in the belief in Allah or in acknowledging His Messenger 4) nor did they want us to add any such thing 5) In fact, there was complete unity (in belief) 6) except that we differed on the question of `Uthman's blood while we were free of responsibility for it. The first 5 points clearly show that there were NO differences in Belief as Point 5 states: COMPLETE UNITY IN BELIEF!!!!! In status/stature/superiority and Nobility Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) was/is head over shoulders battles of Camel, Battle of Saffin and Battle of Nahrawan. Important Note to consider that IMAMATE is not mentioned at all– Core Belief of Shias!!!!!!!!!!! Part Two “They however said that they would settle it by war. Thus, they refused our offer and consequently war spread its wings and came to stay. Its flames rose and became strong. When the war had bitten us as well as them and pierced its talons into us as well as them, they accepted what we had proposed to them. So, we agreed to what they suggested and hastened to meet their request. In this way, the plea became clear to them and no excuse was left to them. Now, whoever among them adheres to this will be saved by Allah from ruin, and whoever shows obstinacy and insistence (on wrong) is the reverser whose heart has been blinded by Allah and evils will encircle his head.” In Part Two Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) stated his righteousness and uprightness and that his opponents were obstinate and were seeking war. There were no Shias as a religious group and neither was there any Sunni group. All were Muslims following the Commands of the Blessed Quran and Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). There is no claim to Shia IMAMATE from supposedly first Imam of Shia!!!!!! You posted this on Shia site, did you really expect genuine and critical response? I have done my best to tear your post at your request. If you really want it to be blown to smithereens, then I suggest that post it on reputable Sunni site. Then seat back and watch the fireworks. Your opening sentence You said: Sunni source: “When Fatima became ill, Abu Bakr came to her and asked for permission to enter. So Ali said, ‘O Fatima, this is Abu Bakr asking for permission to enter.’ She answered, ‘Do you want me to give him permission?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ So, she allowed him (to enter), and he came in seeking her pleasure, so he told her: ‘By Allah, I only left my home and property and my family seeking the pleasure of Allah and His Messenger and you, O Ahlel Bayt.’ So, he talked to her until she was pleased with him.” (Sunan Al-Bayhaqi, vol 6, page 301) Shia source: Ibn Maytham al-Bahrani writes in the context of interpreting Nahj-ul-Balaga: “Abu Bakr said to Fatima: Whatever belonged to your father, belongs to you as well. The Messenger of Allah kept something apart out of his personal share (fadak) and distributed the rest of it in the name of Allah. By Allah, I’ll do with you what he used to do with you. Fatima was pleased to hear these words, a confirmation of the Prophetic practice” Ibn Maytham al-Bahrani, Sharh Nahj-ul-Balaga, Vol.5, P. 107,109, Tehran Hadith from Shia source – From Imam Muhammad Baqir (may Allah be pleased with him) al-Tabrisi narrates from (Imam) Muhammad Baqir that when Usamah had left for Jihad when the Messenger of Allah passed away, the news reached Usamah (and) he returned with his army to Medinah. He (Usamah) saw a great number of people surrounding Abu Bakr; on seeing this, he went to question Ali ibn Abi Talib and asked: “What is this?” Ali ibn Abi Talib replied: “It is exactly what you are seeing!” Usamah asked: “Have you (also) given Baya’ah to him?” Ali ibn Abi Talib replied: “Yes.” (Al-Ihtejaj, Allama Abu Mansur, Ahmad al-Tabrisi p.50: Printed Mashhad, Iran) Sunni source: It has been narrated on the authority of 'A'isha that Fatima and 'Abbas approached Abu Bakr, soliciting transfer of the legacy of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) to them. At that time, they were demanding his (Holy Prophet's) lands at Fadak and his share from Khaibar. Abu Bakr said to them: I have heard from the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). Then he quoted the hadith having nearly the same meaning as the one which has been narrated by Uqail on the authority of al-Zuhri (and which his gone before) except that in his version he said: Then 'Ali stood up, extolled the merits of Abu Bakr mentioned his superiority, and his earlier acceptance of Islam. Then he walked to Abu Bakr and swore allegiance to him. (At this) people turned towards 'Ali and said: you have done the right thing. And they became favourably inclined to 'Ali after he had adopted the proper course of action. Sahih Muslim 1759b You quoted just one sentence from the above hadith (Sahih al-Bukhari 4240) just to make your point. I’m giving the link to the above hadith – its long but read it. https://sunnah.com/bukhari:4240 So `Ali sought reconciliation with Abu Bakr and gave him an oath of allegiance. `Ali had not given the oath of allegiance during those months (i.e. the period between the Prophet's death and Fatima's death). `Ali sent someone to Abu Bakr saying, "Come to us, but let nobody come with you," as he disliked that `Umar should come, `Umar said (to Abu Bakr), "No, by Allah, you shall not enter upon them alone " Abu Bakr said, "What do you think they will do to me? By Allah, I will go to them' So Abu Bakr entered upon them, and then `Ali uttered Tashah-hud and said (to Abu Bakr), "We know well your superiority and what Allah has given you, and we are not jealous of the good what Allah has bestowed upon you, but you did not consult us in the question of the rule and we thought that we have got a right in it because of our near relationship to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) ." Thereupon Abu Bakr's eyes flowed with tears. And when Abu Bakr spoke, he said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is to keep good relations with the relatives of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) is dearer to me than to keep good relations with my own relatives. But as for the trouble which arose between me and you about his property, I will do my best to spend it according to what is good, and will not leave any rule or regulation which I saw Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) following, in disposing of it, but I will follow." On that `Ali said to Abu Bakr, "I promise to give you the oath of allegiance in this after noon." So, when Abu Bakr had offered the Zuhr prayer, he ascended the pulpit and uttered the Tashah-hud and then mentioned the story of `Ali and his failure to give the oath of allegiance, and excused him, accepting what excuses he had offered; Then `Ali (got up) and praying (to Allah) for forgiveness, he uttered Tashah-hud, praised Abu Bakr's right, and said, that he had not done what he had done because of jealousy of Abu Bakr or as a protest of that Allah had favoured him with. `Ali added, "But we used to consider that we too had some right in this affair (of rulership) and that he (i.e. Abu Bakr) did not consult us in this matter, and therefore caused us to feel sorry." On that all the Muslims became happy and said, "You have done the right thing." The Muslims then became friendly with `Ali as he returned to what the people had done (i.e. giving the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr). - Sahih al-Bukhari 4240 & Sahih Muslim 1759a Finally, As Hz. Abu Bakr (may be pleased be with him) was the main target of your criticism and recriminations, history and facts on ground debunk all that you attributed to him. Allah Almighty has promised to make Islam dominate all other religions destroy and humiliate anyone who against Allah Almighty’s Will. Hz. Abu Bakr (may be pleased be with him) honoured to be lead nascent Muslim Ummah which he did very successfully. Even Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may be pleased be with him) has attested to this. And when he passed away he was honoured to be buried in the same chamber just a half a meter away from the best of Creation, the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). What an honour!!! For last 1500 odd years all those millions and millions of believers who had (and those billions who come later till end of time) the privilege of performing Hajj or Umrah and then visit Madinah Al Munawwarah to pay their respects and salutations to the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). They only have to take half a meter step to the right to show their reverence, respect and acknowledge his great service to Islam and the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). What an honour!!! All the great men in history can’t please everyone and will have dissidents for their own reasons but this effects not them not. Just like if one spits at the moon in its full glory. It will not touch the moon but will fall back on his face! Likewise, I have used material from Shia sources as much I could find to counter points put forward by you. Wa ‘alaykum Salaam warehmatullahe wabarakatuhu With best wishes for you and your dear family
  11. You quoted just one sentence from the above hadith (Sahih al-Bukhari 4240) just to make your point. I’m giving the link to the above hadith – its long but read it. https://sunnah.com/bukhari:4240 So `Ali sought reconciliation with Abu Bakr and gave him an oath of allegiance. `Ali had not given the oath of allegiance during those months (i.e. the period between the Prophet's death and Fatima's death). `Ali sent someone to Abu Bakr saying, "Come to us, but let nobody come with you," as he disliked that `Umar should come, `Umar said (to Abu Bakr), "No, by Allah, you shall not enter upon them alone " Abu Bakr said, "What do you think they will do to me? By Allah, I will go to them' So Abu Bakr entered upon them, and then `Ali uttered Tashah-hud and said (to Abu Bakr), "We know well your superiority and what Allah has given you, and we are not jealous of the good what Allah has bestowed upon you, but you did not consult us in the question of the rule and we thought that we have got a right in it because of our near relationship to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) ." Thereupon Abu Bakr's eyes flowed with tears. And when Abu Bakr spoke, he said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is to keep good relations with the relatives of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) is dearer to me than to keep good relations with my own relatives. But as for the trouble which arose between me and you about his property, I will do my best to spend it according to what is good, and will not leave any rule or regulation which I saw Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) following, in disposing of it, but I will follow." On that `Ali said to Abu Bakr, "I promise to give you the oath of allegiance in this after noon." So, when Abu Bakr had offered the Zuhr prayer, he ascended the pulpit and uttered the Tashah-hud and then mentioned the story of `Ali and his failure to give the oath of allegiance, and excused him, accepting what excuses he had offered; Then `Ali (got up) and praying (to Allah) for forgiveness, he uttered Tashah-hud, praised Abu Bakr's right, and said, that he had not done what he had done because of jealousy of Abu Bakr or as a protest of that Allah had favoured him with. `Ali added, "But we used to consider that we too had some right in this affair (of rulership) and that he (i.e. Abu Bakr) did not consult us in this matter, and therefore caused us to feel sorry." On that all the Muslims became happy and said, "You have done the right thing." The Muslims then became friendly with `Ali as he returned to what the people had done (i.e. giving the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr). - Sahih al-Bukhari 4240 & Sahih Muslim 1759a Note: If Hz. Ali iibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) was divinely appointed as an Imam, he was duty bound to mention this there and then. He never reminded anyone about Ghadir Khumm. Recall when the leaders of Quraish forced to Abu Talib, trying to get him to stop or tone down the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) preaching the message against their gods, the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) replied: “O my uncle! Know that even if they give the sun to my right hand and the moon to my left hand (that is, whatever they promise) I will never abandon this Message nor stop communicating it to people. Either Allah Almighty spreads this Message over the world and my duty is completed, or I will sacrifice my life on this path.” He stood up. His blessed eyes were full of tears. Abu Talib, who saw that the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was extremely upset, regretted what he said and told him, “O my brother’s son! Proceed on your way, do what you want. I will protect you, as long as I am alive.” Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) from among most upright men. He was well known for his unchallenged bravery and sagacity. If he was divinely appointed as an Imam, he would stated this then and there. Fearing no one any consequences. Shia source: Shia records also confirm that Hz. Fatimah (may Allah be pleased with her) became pleased with Hadrat Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with her). Ibn Maytham al-Bahrani writes in the context of interpreting Nahj-ul-Balaga: “Abu Bakr said to Fatima: Whatever belonged to your father, belongs to you as well. The Messenger of Allah kept something apart out of his personal share (fadak) and distributed the rest of it in the name of Allah. By Allah, I’ll do with you what he used to do with you. Fatima was pleased to hear these words, a confirmation of the Prophetic practice” Ibn Maytham al-Bahrani, Sharh Nahj-ul-Balaga, Vol.5, P. 107,109, Tehran Ibn Maytham al-Bahrani https://en.wikishia.net/view/Ibn_Maytham_al-Bahrani Sunni source: “When Fatima became ill, Abu Bakr came to her and asked for permission to enter. So Ali said, ‘O Fatima, this is Abu Bakr asking for permission to enter.’ She answered, ‘Do you want me to give him permission?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ So, she allowed him (to enter), and he came in seeking her pleasure, so he told her: ‘By Allah, I only left my home and property and my family seeking the pleasure of Allah and His Messenger and you, O Ahlel Bayt.’ So, he talked to her until she was pleased with him.” (Sunan Al-Bayhaqi, vol 6, page 301) I don’t think Hz. Fatimah (may Allah be pleased with her) was ever angry with Hz. Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) regarding property of Fadak as it was well known that she was above the worldly greed and was always content with her life and for this had received glad tidings of Paradise from her very dear father, the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). They both lived very simple and austere/puritanical lives by CHOICE. Narrated `Ali: Fatima complained of what she suffered from the hand mill and from grinding, when she got the news that some slave girls of the booty had been brought to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ). She went to him to ask for a maid-servant, but she could not find him, and told `Aisha of her need. When the Prophet (ﷺ) came, Aisha informed him of that. The Prophet (ﷺ) came to our house when we had gone to our beds. (On seeing the Prophet) we were going to get up, but he said, 'Keep at your places,' I felt the coolness of the Prophet's feet on my chest. Then he said, "Shall I tell you a thing which is better than what you asked me for? When you go to your beds, say: 'Allahu Akbar (i.e. Allah is Greater)' for 34 times, and 'Al hamdu Li llah (i.e. all the praises are for Allah)' for 33 times, and Subhan Allah (i.e. Glorified be Allah) for 33 times. This is better for you than what you have requested." Sahih al-Bukhari 3113 Sahih Muslim 2727a It brings tears to one’s eyes that the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in his supreme wisdom didn’t grant this simplest of request to ease her life. Keeping in that he loved her immensely and she was later promised highest position heaven. Instead recommended her to praise and glorify Allah Almighty. This has become famous and known as Tasbeeh Fatimah. With such noble upbringing do you really think she was concerned about Fadak properties and other worldly luxuries? Women were/are not required to give bayah. Anyway, can you give authentic reference to your statement. That you heard it from a scholar/Zakir will not do.. Faulty arguments and conclusions. If you implying that she gave bayah to Hz. Ali (may Allah pleased with them) and he went ahead and gave bayah to Hz. Abu Bakr Hz. Ali (may Allah pleased with him). confirmed in Shia Sunni hadith. Strange, isn’t it? Of course, the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) cannot ever be wrong!!!! Why have you put ‘I hope’ in brackets. You are inadvertently implying some doubt about this! `A'isha reported ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, And when he (the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)) died I again asked her and she said that he (the Holy Prophet) told her: Gabriel used to recite the Qur'an to me once a year and for this year it was twice and so I perceived that my death had drawn near, and that I (Fatima) would be the first amongst the members of his family who would meet him (in the Hereafter). He shall be my good forerunner and it made me weep. He again talked to me secretly (saying): Aren't you pleased that you should be the sovereign amongst the believing women or the head of women of this Ummah? And this made me laugh. Sahih Muslim 2450cthe The Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) has given her the good news of high status and rank in the Highest Heaven!!!! Women were/are not required to give bayah. Anyway, can you give authentic reference to your statement. Not that you heard it from in a talk/lecture. Please provide an authentic and unambiguous hadith for the above statements. Further down this post I have provided you with hadith from Sunni and Shia sources that Hz. Fatimah (may Allah be pleased with her) she was happy and pleased with Hz. Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him)
  12. How wrong you are!!! You got to refresh your history from authentic resources and not rely on what is dished out by zakirs. After passing away of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) various individual charlatans, each backed by their tribal members declared prophethood for themselves challenging the finality of the Prophet hood! Other tribal leaders declared that their pact with Muhammad was of personal nature and that they felt no obligation to serve the new leader; they refused to submit their collection of the zakat. This had nothing to do with Imamate issue. Read the following: 1) Tulayha ibn Khuwaylid ibn Nawfal al-Asadi – He undertook the first attack on the caliphate, in an attempt to capture Medina, the capital of the caliphate. Hz. Ali ibn Abi Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) took part in battle to defeat Tulayha’s army. In July 632, Abu Bakr raised an army mainly from Banu Hashim, a clan within the tribe of Quraysh. Ali ibn Abi Talib, Talha ibn Ubaidullah and Zubair ibn al-Awam (may Allah be pleased with them), were each appointed as commander of one-third of the newly organized force. They fought the Battle of Zhu Qissa against the forces of Tulayha and his followers as they prepared to launch an attack on Medina during the Ridda wars. The Rashidun commanders held until they were reinforced by Abu Bakr. Tulayha was defeated and his forces were driven back to Zhu Hussa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulayha 2) Musaylima al-Kadhdhāb who had declared himself prophet during the life of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). When the news of passing away the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) reached Musaylima he raised an army of 40,000 soldiers. Hz. Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) sent an army under the command of Hz. ʿIkrima ibn Abī Jahl (may Allah be pleased with him) Musaylimah (d. Dec 632 CE), "the Arch Liar" as he is referred to by the Muslims. Abu Bakr, being a close friend and a loyal companion of Muhammad, could not allow his Prophet's faith to be twisted into different versions, and so his decision to primarily employ military action to crush this rebellion may also have had sentimental reasons entwined with practical ones. https://www.worldhistory.org/Ridda_Wars/ Sajah bint Al-Harith ibn Suayd Sajah was one of a series of people (including her future husband) who claimed prophethood in 7th-century Arabia and was also the only female claiming to be a prophetess during the Wars of Apostasy in Early Islamic Period. Her father, Al-Harith, belonged to the Banu Taghlib tribe of Iraq. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sajah Al-Aswad al-Ansi Aswad al-Ansi (Arabic: الاسود العنسي; died 632[1]), also known as Abhala bin Ka'b (Arabic: عبهلة بن كعب), was the leader of the Banu Ans tribe and a self-proclaimed prophet, one of the four major false prophets of the Wars of Apostasy. He lived in Yemen and proclaimed his prophethood towards the end of the Muhammad's lifetime. He was also known as "the Veiled," or Dhu al-Khimar (Arabic: ذي الخمار),[2] as he used to cover his face to create an aura of mystery. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aswad_al-Ansi Saf ibn Sayyad (Arabic: الصف بن الصياد), later known as Abdullah ibn Sa'id (Arabic: عبد الله بن سعيد), was an alleged claimant of prophethood during the time of Islamic prophet Muhammad and his companions who later disappeared after the Ridda wars. Umar bin Khattab and even some scholars today speculate that he might be the Ad-Dajjal who would later come in this world as the False Messiah. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saf_ibn_Sayyad Here you have unwittingly scored a huge own goal!!!!! Indeed, the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) uttered those words. These were not uttered against Hz. Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) and these were not uttered in connection with issue of Fadak. With respect, I’ll refrain from letting you why and for whom the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) uttered these words! Imam Jaffar as Sadiq (may Allah be pleased with him) has also related the same in Shia sources! If you still don’t get it, ask your fellow Shias as for whom these words were uttered. I am sure they all know it. Otherwise let me know. I’ll send the information to you by private message. Be prepared for a very unpleasant shock!! As I told you that have unwittingly scored a huge own goal!!!!! And shot yourself in the foot at the same time!!!! What a remarkable feat!!!! Nice of you to quote something good from Hz. ‘Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her)!!!! And trust her!!!! Quite heartening. Allow me to give you the link to the above hadith so that you can read the full hadith. https://sunnah.com/muslim:2450c
  13. I said, "If there is neither a group of Muslims nor an Imam (ruler)?" He said, "Then turn away from all those sects even if you were to bite (eat) the roots of a tree till death overtakes you while you are in that state." Sahih al-Bukhari 7084 - Read the full hadith https://sunnah.com/bukhari:7084 So, in this situation with no Khilafah/Imam, the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) has advised that believers should shun sectarian issues and strifes and stick to Quran and Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and endeavour to lead simplest lives. Islamic Ummah has passed this situation before in 1258 Abbasid caliphate was destroyed by the Mongol invasion In 1261, following the Mongol conquest of Baghdad, the Mamluk rulers of Egypt tried to gain legitimacy for their rule by declaring the re-establishment of the Abbasid caliphate in Cairo. The Abbasid caliphs in Egypt had little political power; they continued to maintain the symbols of authority, but their sway was confined to religious matters. The first Abbasid caliph of Cairo was Al-Mustansir (r. June–November 1261). The Abbasid caliphate of Cairo lasted until the time of Al-Mutawakkil III, who ruled as caliph from 1508 to 1516, then he was deposed briefly in 1516 by his predecessor Al-Mustamsik, but was restored again to the caliphate in 1517. Great Sultan Selim I defeated the Mamluk Sultanate and made Egypt part of the Ottoman Empire in 1517. Al-Mutawakkil III was captured together with his family and transported to Constantinople as a prisoner where he had a ceremonial role. He died in 1543, following his return to Cairo. From then on, the Khilafat passed on to Uthmaniyah Sultan. In 1924 the Zionists conspired with the then dominant European powers and their local ‘Muslim’ cahoots and destroyed and dismembered it into petty small disjointed states. As according the hadith there will be times of Fitnah and fasad (trials and tribulations) when there will be NO Universal Islamic leadership. In these times believers have been advised by the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to avoid controversies and tread the narrow path of following the Qur’an and live our lives following the Sunnah of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). Khalifah is not a pillar of Sunni doctrine. But there must be an elected leader among Sunni Muslim community/country that to defend the doctrine of religion. There will be times when Khilafah wouldn’t exist -as it is nowadays and has been before. This disagreement was overcome as per instructions of the Blessed Qur’an. who respond to their Lord, establish prayer, conduct their affairs by mutual consultation, and donate from what We have provided for them Ayah 38 Surah ash-Shura (appropriately named Consultation) This is completely wrong and false!!! You are just making things up. According to historical facts about six to seven Companions (may Allah be pleased with them) of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) did not initially give bayah to Hz. Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him). Were they declared apostates and killed? Please don’t make things up as you go along. Those who challenged the nascent Islamic state and were preparing to attack it were taken to task and that fitnah was brought to an end. You will be surprised that Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) agrees to the above!!! Read the last paragraph of Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha!!!! So, do you disagree with him? Let me you to refer to Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha (A letter sent by Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) to the people of various provinces, giving them the causes of the Battle of Siffin.) – Where Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) has unambiguously addressed Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar bin Al Khattab and Hz. Uthman bin Affan (may Allah Be pleased with them) as IMAMS!!!! “Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be IMAM, it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure. If anyone keeps away by way of objection or innovation, they will return him to the position from where he kept away. If he refuses, they will fight him for following a course other than that of the believers and Allah will put him back from where he had run away.” Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha He clearly states that anyone who keeps away by way of objection or innovation and if refuses then fight them till, they return to the course of the Believers! And Allah will put him back from where he had run away. What would happen to those who did not return to course of Believers? Also note: Battle of Nahrawan – see what Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) did the Khawarij who once his diehard supporters!!!!! Battle of Nahrawān (Arabic: معركة النهروان) was among the battles during the caliphate of Imam Ali (a) which happened after the Battle of Siffin and following the event of Hakamiyya [arbitration] in Safar of 38/658. On one side of the battle was a group of people known as Mariqun or Khawarij. In this battle, Khawarij were defeated by the army of Imam Ali (a). It is said that less than ten soldiers from Khawarij could run away unharmed. Among them, 'Abd al-Rahman b. Muljam al-Muradi, the murderer of Imam Ali (a). You must be knowing that before the beginning of hostilities the Khawarij were 4000 strong. Only less than 10 soldiers managed to escape!!!!!!!! So, more than 3990, who one-time allies just a few months ago, were killed!! https://en.wikishia.net/view/Battle_of_Nahrawan So, the Ridda Wars ('Apostasy Wars) were not conducted to gain personal power as you (shias) intend to imply, rather were to get rid of Apostasy of tribal leaders, get rid of false prophets and those who refused to pat Zakat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridda_Wars link about Ridda Wars Now refer to Arabic version Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha – the actual words uttered by Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him). إِنَّهُ بَايَعَنِي الْقَوْمُ الَّذِينَ بَايَعُوا أَبَا بَكْر وَعُمَرَ وَعُثْمانَ عَلَى مَا بَايَعُوهُمْ عَلَيْهِ، فَلَمْ يَكُنْ لِلشَّاهِدِ أَنْ يَخْتَارَ، وَلاَ لِلغَائِبِ أَنْ يَرُدَّ، وَإنَّمَا الشُّورَى لِلْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالاْنْصَارِ، فَإِنِ اجْتَمَعُوا عَلَى رَجُل وَسَمَّوْهُ إِمَاماً كَانَ ذلِكَ لله رِضىً، فَإِنْ خَرَجَ عَنْ أَمْرِهِمْ خَارِجٌ بِطَعْن أَوْبِدْعَة رَدُّوهُ إِلَى مَاخَرَجَ منه، فَإِنْ أَبَى قَاتَلُوهُ عَلَى اتِّبَاعِهِ غَيْرَ سَبِيلِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ، وَوَلاَّهُ اللهُ مَا تَوَلَّى. “If they agree on an individual and take him to be IMAM, it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.” He used the word IMAM – Well knowing all the meanings and implications of this word.
  14. Assalama alaykum Brother I had imposed self-exile from Shiachat upon myself but your post dragged me back to set the score straight. You asked/raised a lot of questions and I am attempting to answer all of them. I humbly disagree with the highlighted part of your statement. If most prominent Islamic scholars from the spectrum of sects, theologies and historical writings are in agreement then there should have no problems. Right? Your premise may be simple to you as you claim but apparently your ‘knowledge’ of Sunni Islam is very shaky and narrowly limited to what is dished out to you from Shia biased sources. Almost all of questions raised by you are connected with historical events. Bear in mind history has many versions. There is real history of real events. The opinions are given by each side of what they think happened putting on their own spin. Each side can interpret the facts to suit their narratives. History is written by the winners, goes the old saying. But that’s not entirely true. The losers also write their version of what happened, with a different spin. And to self-console themselves they tend exaggerate their history. I suggest you read ‘Any Version of History is just a (hi)STORY’ written by Saeed Mubarak I would have preferred it to be (his)STORY. Each one has his own story. Having said the above, I’ll attempt to answer your points raised in detail and believe me there are a lot of questions raised. Please read with open mind putting your personal bias aside for a while. The word ‘apostate’ is not uttered by the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). Narrated Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman: The people used to ask Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) about the good but I used to ask him about the evil lest I should be overtaken by them. So, I said, "O Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him)! We were living in ignorance and in an (extremely) worst atmosphere, then Allah brought to us this good (i.e., Islam); will there be any evil after this good?" He said, "Yes." I said, 'Will there be any good after that evil?" He replied, "Yes, but it will be tainted (not pure.)'' I asked, "What will be its taint?" He replied, "(There will be) some people who will guide others not according to my tradition? You will approve of some of their deeds and disapprove of some others." I asked, "Will there be any evil after that good?" He replied, "Yes, (there will be) some people calling at the gates of the (Hell) Fire, and whoever will respond to their call, will be thrown by them into the (Hell) Fire." I said, "O Allah s Apostle! Will you describe them to us?" He said, "They will be from our own people and will speak our language." I said, "What do you order me to do if such a state should take place in my life?" He said, "Stick to the group of Muslims and their Imam (ruler)." I said, "If there is neither a group of Muslims nor an Imam (ruler)?" He said, "Then turn away from all those sects even if you were to bite (eat) the roots of a tree till death overtakes you while you are in that state." Sahih al-Bukhari 7084 Note: The above narration clearly shows that there could be a time when there will be no Imam (as this is happening in this era). This completely destroys the Shia belief that earth can’t survive without an Imam. Notice that He (peace and blessings be upon him) wasn’t surprised when the questioner (Hudhayfah) asked what should be done when there is no Imam. He (peace and blessings be upon him) didn’t reject the question of people saying how could earth survive with without an Imam. This is sufficient to understand the falsification of the belief in Hidden Imam!!! Also, Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) said the same thing. Read the last paragraph of Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha!!!! So, you disagree with him? Let me you to refer to Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha (A letter sent by Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) to the people of various provinces, giving them the causes of the Battle of Siffin.) – Where Hz. Ali ibn Abu Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) has unambiguously addressed Hz. Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar bin Al Khattab and Hz. Uthman bin Affan (may Allah Be pleased with them) as IMAMS!!!! “Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be IMAM, it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure. If anyone keeps away by way of objection or innovation, they will return him to the position from where he kept away. If he refuses, they will fight him for following a course other than that of the believers and Allah will put him back from where he had run away.” Letter 6 Nahjul Balagha He clearly states that anyone who keeps away by way of objection or innovation and if refuses then fight them till, they return to the course of the Believers! And Allah will put him back from where he had run away. Keep the following utterance in mind - and if refuses then fight them till, they return to the course of the Believers! Guess what would happen to those refuse to return. That’s what he did with Khajirites in the Battle of Naharwan. Read all about it in the following link. Khajirites were around 4000 soldiers and only lesson that 10 of them managed to escape. One of whom was 'Abd al-Rahman b. Muljam al-Muradi (the cursed) who later martyred Imam Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) https://en.wikishia.net/view/Battle_of_Nahrawan
  15. Are you tacitly implying that those on the path of Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)) are not welcoming and generous to those “probably became somewhat alienated from his family, maybe lost his career, etc” when they opted for Shiaism? So, conveniently those who collect khums in millions promise the newcomers ‘Pie in the sky’ and encourage to willingly accept hardship as badge of piety? Wow! Must have pleased yourself for such a great investigation and insight! My apologies I have to repeat myself again: Wow! Must have pleased yourself for such a great investigation and insight! Shouldn’t those who collect khums in millions follow suit to spread the message of the Ahl Al Bayt((عليه السلام)) rather than spend it for their own needs.
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