Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Nathan

Advanced Member
  • Content Count

    36
  • Joined

  • Last visited

2 Followers

Profile Information

  • Location
    Romania
  • Religion
    Christian
  • Mood
    Joyful
  • Favorite Subjects
    The Bible, Soccer, Running, Reading

Previous Fields

  • Gender
    Male

Recent Profile Visitors

194 profile views
  1. Hey Green Knight, Thanks for your honest thoughts! I really appreciate getting to hear what you think when you read passages such as this. Regarding Lot, he and his daughters lived in a cave because they were afraid to live in Zoar and likely any other place. So yes, there were other people on the earth but they were afraid to go anywhere and that's why Lot's daughters behaved as they did. After all, they had been living in Sodom and Gomorrah-wouldn't you be afraid to live somewhere else when you didn't know if the people would be like that? It is obvious that their behavior was unjustifiably indecent and sinful as you said. As @Ashvazdanghe said, Muslims believe that all of the prophets were perfect which, by the way Ash- I didn't know so thank you for sharing that with me! Christians believe that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Only Jesus lived a sinless life. I personally don't see how Muslims can say that the Bible is corrupt but that the Qu'ran is free from corruption but we can agree to disagree. Regarding what you say about the OT, the Jews are the people chosen by God through Abraham. It wasn't the Jews who killed Jesus, it was some Jews. And if Jesus had come to earth and been a part of any country on earth, He would have been crucified by whatever people He came to love. The entire Bible is one Book. Genesis is about God creating a perfect world, mankind corrupting the world by sinning, and God promising that the offspring of man would overcome the devil in the end. The rest of the Old Testament is about God working out His plan to reconcile mankind back to God and doing that through the seed of Abraham. Then Jesus is the promised Redeemer who actually becomes sin on behalf of sinful man and dies only to be raised from the dead on the 3rd day and then soon after ascending to be with the Father. From the book of Acts until Jude, the Bible is about the spread of this good news through Jesus' disciples. And the the book of Revelation is a vision of what will be when Christ returns and takes His followers with Him into the presence of God into a place prepared for us. This is an extremely brief summary but just wanted you to know in a nutshell that the OT cannot be seperated from the NT and vice versa. I admire that you are careful about what your children read and learn. Sadly, in this day and age, I feel like many people let their children do whatever they want and this is reeking havoc on our world. We should be careful about at what age our children are when we teach from certain passages of the Bible but we should not censor the Word of God. It is written as it is to teach us about who God is and what His character is like. We have examples of what He likes in the Bible and we also have examples of what He hates in the Bible. Because the Bible is true, it's about real people who did mess up but there were those who repented and who had a good relationship with the Lord. Thanks again for your thoughts and I hope that this is helpful.
  2. Hey Green Knight, I just wanted to jump in here to talk about the so-called elephants in the room. I'll be the first to admit that great and outrageous sin is spread throughout the entire Bible. Since the Bible is true, it's about real stories of real people. Yes even some of the heroes of the Bible like Noah and David did some horrible things. But not once does God endorse their actions! The Bible makes it clear that every single person who ever lived can not stand on his own righteousness, that there is a need for God to step in to save us by His great mercy! Every sinful action committed by one of God's chosen points to the need for a Savior that's outside of ourselves. I believe this Savior is Jesus.
  3. I agree that in the first 3 centuries the church Fathers didn't at least articulate that the Holy Spirit was co-equal and co-eternal with the Father. I do believe that the Apostles and many of the Church Fathers absolutely believed that the Holy Spirit and the Son were co-equal and co-eternal but just didn't put it into words until later. After all, Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:20 that new disciples should be baptized "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." The order of the members of the Trinity does not demonstrate a heirachy. It's just impossible to say three words at once. The early Church Fathers received an extremely challenging task. The formation of Christian Theology was not for the faint of heart. I will be the first to admit that the doctrine of the Trinity is impossible to fully understand and often confusing. It is not just difficult for Muslims and Atheists. The reason that the Councils were held was because there was a lot of heresy going on and because there needed to be a unification of Christian doctrine. Athanasius at the Council of Constantinople in 381 argued that our forgiveness by God, an infinitely valuable being, requires an atoning sacrifice of infinite value. Hence, Christ has to be fully divine, as only a fully divine being has infinite value. It's from this Council that we have the creed that states "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified." So the articulation of the co-eternality and co-equality of the Holy Spirit and the Father started in the 4th century.
  4. @Mohammad313Ali I'll respond later but I just wanted to share now that I appreciate your tone, thank you for your thoughtful response!
  5. Thanks for your response Hasanhh! This scripture only talks about the fact that the Israelis had declared certain foods unlawful before they received the Torah. This doesn't mean that Israel continued to create their own rules after they were given the Torah. Some books in the OT have multiple human authors but it is God who inspired these authors so the Source of the writing is one as God is one and therefore the message is united. In Ayat 2:75, the word to distort isn't referring to the Torah, but it's interpretation. The Torah is still the same today as it always was. There have been some who have distorted it's interpretation to fit their teaching but that should not affect the truth of God's Word.
  6. The funny thing is that you're using a lot of the Scriptures I want to use to convince you. Isn't it amazing that we can both look at the same exact words and have different beliefs regarding them? Your claims against Paul have never made sense to me. Could you share with me how you came to believe that Paul was somehow a deceiver? I also wanted to respond to your argument about Paul's writings predating the Gospels. There is a simple explanation for this. I'll just use the Gospel of Matthew as an example. Matthew lived with Jesus for 3 years. After Jesus ascended into heaven, Matthew along with the other 10 faithful disciples then began doing what Jesus had commanded them to do-making disciples of all nations, baptizing them and teaching them to observe all that Jesus had commanded. Matthew didn't write out His Gospel right away because he was too busy obeying Jesus! The reason that many of Paul's writings preceded the Gospels is because they were letters that he was writing to churches as he faithfully followed Jesus. The passage you quoted in Galatians demonstrates Paul's passion for the true Gospel, nothing false. The false Gospel he was referring to was the fact that many people were teaching that Christians had to be circumcised in order to be accepted by God. This teaching was absolutely false because salvation belongs to God alone and it is nothing that we can earn or work for. Ephesians 2:8-9 says it best: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." You also never answered my main question-how would God allow His Word to be corrupted? There is an incredible amount of evidence that supports that reliability of the Bible. "There are thousands upon thousands of ancient manuscripts of the Bible, dating from the early second century down to the middle ages. When you compare what we have for the Bible with, say, what we have in terms of manuscripts for other important works of antiquity — Plato or Thucydides — it’s striking. For the Bible, we have 5,000 Greek manuscripts, hundreds of papyri, almost 350 Syriac copies (most dating to the 400s). On top of this, virtually the entire New Testament could be reproduced from quotations in the early church fathers; 32,000 such quotations exist before the Council of Nicaea in AD325, for example."
  7. Hey guys, I hope we can converse and discuss with kindness and respect. As I have quoted many Scriptures from the Bible, I continually get the response that the Bible has been corrupted. But I wanted to ask, how would God allow this? God is all-powerful and therefore no one would be permitted to do such a thing! Jesus Himself says in Mark 13:31 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away." Plus, the Qu-ran states clearly in 3:3-4 that "He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. Before, as guidance for the people. And He revealed the Qur'an. Indeed, those who disbelieve in the verses of Allah will have a severe punishment, and Allah is exalted in Might, the Owner of Retribution." It seems to me that the Qu-ran actually confirms the Bible. Let me hear your thoughts.
  8. Look again at this passage from Matthew 16:13-17- "Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven." After Peter tells Jesus that He is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus calls Peter blessed instead of rebuking him. Also did you notice that the disciples said that others were saying that He was John the Baptist, Elijah, Jeremiah or one of the prophets? Can you see that they are stating that there is a difference between Jesus and the prophets? This is just one of countless examples when the Gospels explicitly shows that Jesus is God! Yes there were other prophets who performed miracles and they did them to glorify God. I agree with you that Jesus is a prophet. I agree with you that Jesus is a messenger, that he is THE Messiah, rabbi/teacher and Son of Man. But He is also God. Jesus said in John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." There is no other way to get to heaven except by putting all of your faith in the fact that Jesus was the only person who lived a perfect life on earth (how could He be perfect if He is not God?), that He died on a cross not because of His own sins but because of ours and then on the third day He rose again ultimately showing that He is God because He overcame sin and even death. It is in Jesus we have our hope. All of our hope. I also wanted to share with you another passage of Scripture because you have said a lot about your arguments being crystal clear and that our Christian beliefs are illogical. But please here this: 1 Corinthians 1:19-25 says, "For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."
  9. We both have been taught different things about our respective faiths. So where as you believe that your arguments clearly show Jesus is not God, the Scriptures you use do not contradict my beliefs at all. It is the same when I try to convince you that Jesus is God. They make sense to me but not to you because you have been taught differently. This is why both sides must humbly submit ourselves to God (Allah) and ask Him to guide us. If neither of us budges in our faith, may we still choose to maintain a relationship based on friendship, kindness and respect.
  10. Hey THREE1THREE, I'm sorry you feel this way. My Christian brothers and I are on here to try to build relationships with Muslims. We aren't being polite out of a desire to deceive or to cause you to lower your guard. You've made it quite clear that you are extremely knowledgeable not only about Islam but about the Bible as well. Is our hope that you might become Christians? Yes! But we are not looking for converts. We long to make disciples of Jesus Christ. I'm sorry that you feel like we were wearing masks. I only do that when I go to get groceries because of the Corona virus. ;) If our only hope was that we would be able to convince you with our wise words and cunning logic, we would be insane to continue to dialogue with you. Like it's been said before by one of my brothers, we have no power to save. That power belongs to the Holy Spirit who changes hearts and reveals the truth. So we are on here to build relationships, make a case for our faith and to pray for you all that God might reveal Himself to you through His Spirit. I say this knowing that you may see this as arrogance but I pray you wouldn't. Let us all seek God and ask Him that He would show us what is true. If it is Islam, than may we all be Muslims! If it is Christianity, than may we all be Christians! Colossians 1:9-10 "And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him: bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God"
  11. Thanks for your well thought out response Ash! I would ask how God could be called Father if He did not eternally have a Son? Yes, many of God's people and prophets referred to God as Father but this would mean that God would be dependent on creating a people to call Him Father if He did not have a Son before the creation of the world. And in Islam, Allah is said to have ninety-nine names, one of them being "The Loving." "But how could Allah be loving in eternity? Before he created there was nothing else in existence that he could love (and the title does not refer to self-centered love but love for others). The only option is that Allah eternally loves his creation. But that in itself raises an enormous problem: if Allah needs his creation to be who he is in himself ("loving"), then Allah is dependent on his own creation, and one of the cardinal beliefs of Islam is that Allah is dependent on nothing." (Delighting in the Trinity pg. 40 Michael Reeves)
  12. Hey THREE1THREE, I'm sorry if I'm being confusing. It is just so very hard to explain the Trinity. And I definitely understand why it is so hard for Muslims to grasp the concept. Please don't disregard the doctrine because I'm simply unable to give words to explain it.
  13. Hey Ash, My hope is to explain that Jesus is God the Son and also that He is a messenger and representative sent from God the Father. Please take this example (which is not a perfect summary of how the Trinity works): The Father is the mind, the Son is the voice, and the Holy Spirit is the heart and soul. God is one in essence and each member of the Trinity is completely and perfectly united. We do not believe that God is 3. He is one in 3 persons.
×
×
  • Create New...