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In the Name of God بسم الله


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Zaidism last won the day on March 10

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    سُبْحَانَ اللهِ، وَالحَمْدُ لِلهِ، وَلَا إِلهَ إِلَّا اللهُ، وَاللهُ أَكْبَرُ
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  1. The purpose of a Zaydi Imam is to establish the Shari'ah of Allah, and act in accordance to the Sunnah of His Messenger (upon him and his progeny be peace), we don't have any exaggerated beliefs when it comes to an Imam, unlike the Twelver, and Ismaili schools.
  2. They're at each others necks last time I checked, and history tells a clear tale of dispute, takfir, and instability. Therefore, the Twelvers are once again left without guidance. Not at all, the dozens of Shi'a sects that believed in occultation could use your same reasoning, but in the end one would need to point to how their particular occult Imam exists, or isn't dead. Again, you're just reading your fantasy of sublime guidance into the words of the Messenger (upon him and his progeny be peace), I reiterate these key points A - You cannot prove the Mahdi existed B - The Mahdi does not guide C - There is no Hadith from the Messenger that designates an occult 12th Imam If anything, these clearly point to the 'itra who established governments, fought against tyrants, refuted Atheists, Christians, Sunnis, Ismailis, Twelvers, etc. But all that withstanding, you need to address points A, B, and C, you can't just ignore that and start pulling out Hadiths to prove something that isn't established in the first placed. Otherwise, we would just be playing word games. The Jabr, and Tajsim that Shareef al-Murtadha was referring to was the belief that Allah can be limited to a space, or has a body, etc. So, your attempt to somehow twist the context of their belief goes to show how desperate your attempts are getting. As for Zaydis, we not only negate such Kufr beliefs, the Imams of the Ahl al-Bayt have refuted them exceedingly. Refer to page 42 of the book Of course not, this is like saying 'I believe in Wilayat al-Faqih, does that make me a Wali Faqih?' I am referring to those who lived in the early years i.e 250 A.H, and before, and those that were raised in the lap of Imam Sadiq, not someone many centuries after. Yeah, that's a chapter I point to, to show how the reality of the Imamiyah contradicts that which al-Kafi claims. For example, when it continues from here (أن الأرض لا تخلو من حجة) and says that the reason for this is so that if the people increase in a matter the Imam reprimands them, and if they decrease he fulfills it for them. This has been non-existent for 1187 years. Page 64 onwards addresses this point theologically, linguistically, logically, and points how this actually maintains the Zaydi position. Let's say I have 10 sons, among them 5 are killed, and the remainder are oppressed, and go through other calamities. If I were to pray to Allah against those who oppressed, and killed my sons that does not entail all 10 were murdered. As for them having the knowledge of the Prophet, it is by virtue of them maintaining his authentic Sunnah, and having a consensus on their Usul, and those teachings of the Prophet which cannot be compromised. Unlike Twelvers who claim to have immaculate guidance, but their top scholars believed in Tajsim/Jabr, others believed in Tahreef such as al-Majlisi, and al-Kulayani. You didn't even have Saduq, and Mufid agreeing on whether the Prophet could procrastinate or not, this is why al-Mufid wrote a book seeking to do Tasheeh of the 'Aqeedah of his teacher, you don't have a scent of guidance, so for you to claim immaculate guidance is mindboggling. I like how you made history the judge between us, historically speaking we can reasonably say that Imam Hassan al-'Askari died from poisoning, because he died at a young age. However, you cannot prove that Imam Baqir died from poison as well, so once again if we would go by your argumentation, your argument falls flat on its face, because you can't establish whether all your 12 Imams were actually pensioned/killed. Therefore, you are going back to your circular reasoning and screaming through that echo-chamber of yours. I have no idea how you inferred that, that is certainly not what I am asking.
  3. @Ashvazdanghe What are you disagreeing with exactly XD? Also, I don't want to point fingers but someone went on the channel and disliked all the videos the moment I shared that link
  4. Baseless report I agree we don't follow individuals with such descriptions. In what way are you currently following the Mahdi? He does not lead, he does not guide, he does nothing, so essentially you are arguing that an infallible leader is better than a righteous fallible one who does not exceed the bounds, and commit major sins - I agree, but there is no such guide in the world, you follow fallible scholars, and this is a reality which you must accept, it is undeniable. This is getting childish, with all due respect. Tajsim is interpreting what you mentioned literally, how can one deny what you mentioned when it is in the Qur'an? This is a problem you must face, ask yourself where the guidance of the Mahdi was towards those Qomi scholars, and their corrupt beliefs, and why the third representative of the Imam did not rebuke them, but instead sought theology advice from them? Is Abu al-Fadhl al-'Abbas ((عليه السلام)) a ظالم? If not, then don't try to twist the meanings of the Qur'an, and say it is pointing towards infallible leaders. Who are the Ahl al-Bayt, are they not the progeny of the Prophet, why is it that not a single member of the Ahl al-Bayt was an Imami for the first 200-250 years? Why are the sons of your Imams Zaydis? Why are all your Hadith books written by members who aren't from the Ahl al-Bayt? Why do you accept narrations from those who aren't from the family of your Imams, whereas we take narrations from those who lived, and were raised by the Imams like Imam al-Hussein b. Zayd who was raised by Imam Sadiq, and was a Zaydi, as well as Muhammad b. Ja'far al-Sadiq; why couldn't Imam Sadiq raise his three sons, and al-Hussein b. Zayd to be Twelvers? Unless, Imam Sadiq never taught that, and when he cursed Zurarah, Hisham b. al-Hakm, Shaytan al-Taq, and called them liars, maybe just maybe it wasn't Taqiyyah, have you ever thought of that possibility with those Qara'in in mind? After all, there were dozens of sects before who attributed things to other members of the Ahl al-Bayt, this sect just so happened to gain governmental support from the Abbasids who were shaking from the brave Zaydis, they needed to promote a sect that supports political quietism, what better sect than one which claims to have a hidden Imam? When these Prophets, and righteous individuals went away from the people, did Allah obligate their communities to follow their teachings? No, He did not, because that would be unjust, so why are you saying we are obligated to follow an Imam who has done nothing in relation to the role of Imamah, which has done none of the following: A - Guide in matters of Halal and Haram B - Establish the Hudud C - Lead the Muslims in Prayer D - Gather the alms-tax
  5. Exactly, Marj'ayah has replaced Imamah. You have no Imamah, it's just a fantasy that exists in your minds, and on paper, and it's been embellished with irfani rhetoric. Who has the Mahdi educated? He didn't even educate his third 'representative' who sent a letter to Qomi scholars so they can check his 'Aqeedah for him. God forbid he signs a treatise in the name of the Mahdi without checking it first, I wonder why...
  6. To implement the Hudud Imam Ali taught in matters of Halal, and Haram, as Shia we always mention the quote of Umar where he says had it not been for Abu al-Hassan I would have perished. When the Prophet was alive he did, as for your misconception, you are thinking we need an Imam in every place/time, however, as you mentioned this isn't always feasible. The point that is being made is that leading the prayer, teaching matters of Halal, and Haram, etc. Are necessary for Imamah. You can't be an Imam without acting as one. When you mention cases of occultation, our point is you are making it a necessary component of belief, so you are saying that we have to believe in an occult Imam, whereas Allah never compelled His servants to believe in Prophets, or follow leaders that are occult from them. This is why such an analogy does not work either, because when the people of the cave, Nabi 'isa, al-Khidr, etc were, or are occult Allah does no oblige us to follow them - that is the point.
  7. Separate discussion, how? This is equivalent to the issues you are raising, our Imam is essentially a Marja' like Sayyid Sistani, but he leads the Muslims in a position of statesmanship, I am not using your concept of Imamah, because it is non-existent. Can you show me which Friday prayer the Mahdi has led, or which particular Hudud he administered, before you list those additional matters. Essentially the discussion is revolving around two premises and a conclusion (P1) - The Mahdi Muhammad b. al-Hassan al-'Askari exists (P2) - The Mahdi is an Imam (C) - There is an Imam by the name of Muhammad b. al-Hassan al-'Askari that exists We need to address these two premises, as they are necessary preconditions to your belief, what you are doing is you are taking P1, and P2 as a given, and you are trying to argue through a sort of immaculate Imamah which I mentioned to be better than an Imamah led by fallible righteous individuals. I know you don't want to touch on P1, because it is a fact that you cannot prove he exists, and as for P2 I am showing how he has not fulfilled the prerequisites of an Imam which are at the very least leading the Friday prayer, teaching in matters of Halal, and Haram, etc. Now, seeing that the false equivocation you've made with a practical Imamah, and a fantasy type of Imamah doesn't stand to your own scrutiny, as it leads to absurdity. I kindly ask you to choose which of the two necessary premises you would like to focus on, so we can dedicate time to it, otherwise we are putting the cart ahead of the horse, and I am trying to be as charitable as I can, in the end this is a serious matter, and our goal isn't to score cheap points. Incorrect analogy, because we have access to their teachings.
  8. This makes more sense in the Zaydi perspective, because the Zaydis follow the Ahl al-Bayt collectively, and we have points of consensus, such as Mut'ah being haram, however, you can't even agree on an epistemology to use in deriving knowledge from the Ahl al-Bayt, is it the Usuli, or Akhbari framework? Both lead to big differences, so which Ahl al-Bayt is the Prophet referring to if it isn't that which the Zaydis hold to, is it the Ahl al-Bayt of the Usulis, or Akhbaris? Same issue as above, as for Zaydis it can easily refer to the consensus of the Ahl al-Bayt I can say that I have a teacher who has knowledge, and I have knowledge, yet like Imam Yahya b. Zayd say that my teacher knows all that I know, why the persistent need to push for hyperbole, and is this how you tragically defend your belief in the occultation? Moreover, that same source you're quoting from I believe mentions Imam Sadiq saying Imam Zayd is more knowledgeable than me
  9. @Cool This is a thread about the occultation, you are free to make a separate one about Zaydi Imamah, and I will gladly discuss it with you InshaAllah. Just to quickly address your points: A- Imam Ali had Nass from Allah, and His Messenger B - An Imam is someone who either rises with the sword, so as to enjoin good and forbid evil, and eventually establish the Hudud. For example, sayyid Khomeini rose with the sword, and sayyid khamenei did not rise with the sword, but he was the Imam after him in leading the Muslims. Likewise, the case of Imam Ridha who we believe is a Zaydi Imam, but rose to proclaim his Imamah openly (not conceal it from relatives, sons, and general Muslims). C - You mention that Zaydi Imams have been influenced by Mu'tazilah, believe me you don't want to go that route, because you don't have evidence for this. Whereas, I can show you how Mu'tazilah who Sheikh Mufid (modern-day Twelvers follow his interpretation of twelverism) studied under would blatantly accuse him of stealing from them and using their school to build his 'Aqeedah, can you do the same? I want you to say that there is no evidence for Sheikh Mufid being accused by Mu'tazilah to take from their school to build mainstream Twelverism, in the same way you denied Qomi scholars believing in Jabr, and Tajsim, and then when proven wrong you simply brush it under the rug and bring up some point about Yunus b. 'AbdulRahman, who we can address as well if you would like, and his affiliation with the 'Abbasids. Believe me, any point you think you can make against the school of the Ahl al-Bayt (al-Zaidiyyah) will be returned back to you tenfold, this is the school of the progeny of the Prophet, which means it is the school which logically coherent, and textually consistent, whereas taking the lead of those who are other than the Ahl al-Bayt will cause someone to believe in things which are textually inconsistent, and logically incoherent.
  10. @dragonxx It is very simple brother, let's look at it this way. You follow a scholar in matters of your Furu' and when it comes to Usul no Muslim is permitted to do Taqlid, and this is a point of consensus between all Muslims. If you were to be consistent you would use that same reasoning and question whether other Muslims are truly able to discern if the scholar they're emulating in matters of Halal, and Haram, for example Sayyid Sistani is someone who is truly learned in the Quran and Sunnah? After all, the Sayyid is only to be emulated if he is consistent with Quran and Sunnah. So, I ask, how can the people possibly determine this? How can they judge whether Sayyid Sistani is learned in these matters, especially if there are other scholars who are being emulated as well, and some with other views than Sayyid Sistani! Surely, you can't expect the people to know who to do Taqlid of. Moreover, we might as well just throw Wilayat Faqih away, because according to you it is a complete blunder, the people simply can't discern between someone like the Shah, and someone like Sayyid Khomeini, they're just too ignorant. If the people can know who is worthy of doing Taqlid of, they have no issue whatsoever in knowing who is deserving of Bay'ah. The purpose of an Imam is to: A - Guide in matters of Halal and Haram B - Establish the Hudud C - Lead the Muslims D - Gather the alms-tax None of which the Twelfth Imam has done, he has not administered a single punishment in Hudud, he has not guided someone in Halal, and Haram (not some psuedo-irfani guidance), he has not lead the Muslims in prayer, let alone in battle, and he has gathered nothing of taxes. Going back to my point in Usul, we can at least agree that Muslims are able to conceive of the fact that they are obligated to pay Zakat, and they are also obligated to enjoin good and forbid evil. How can they possibly discern what is good, and what is evil?! How can they know who to pay the Zakat to?! How do we know whether their Adhan is right, you have people for, and against the third testimony, you have emulated scholars who are between the third testimony in Adhan being recommended, or impermissible! How can we possibly expect someone to discern which scholar to do Taqlid of, do they follow Sheikh Sanad, Sayyid Fadhlullah, or do they take the Middle ground and follow Sayyid Sistani? And we don't even want to go to Sayyid Khamenei, the people are just to incompetent, as a matter a fact they are so incompetent, and according to your reasoning are going to step on landmines left and right, we might as well just throw Islam away and wait for the Mahdi to come and sort things out, that should solve things - according to your reasoning.
  11. Yunus b. 'Abdulrahman wasn't brought up in this thread
  12. What does this have to do with Qomi scholars and their belief in Tajsim, and Jabr?
  13. Let's see what Imam Ali thinks of occult leaders/Imams Then, do not keep yourself secluded from the people for a long time, because the seclusion of those in authority from the subjects is a kind of narrow-sightedness and causes ignorance about their affairs. Seclusion from them also prevents them from the knowledge of those things which they do not know and as a result they begin to regard big matters as small and small matters as big, good matters as bad and bad matters as good, while the truth becomes confused with falsehood. After all, a governor is a human being and cannot have knowledge of things which people keep hidden from him. وَأَمَّا بَعْدَ هذا، فَلاَ تُطَوِّلَنَّ احْتِجَابَكَ عَنْ رَعِيَّتِكَ، فَإِنَّ احْتِجَابَ الْوُلاَةِ عَنِ الرَّعِيَّةِ شُعْبَةٌ مِنَ الضِّيقِ، وَقِلَّةُ عِلْم بِالاْمُورِ، وَالاْحْتِجَابُ مِنْهُمْ يَقْطَعُ عَنْهُمْ عِلْمَ مَا احْتَجَبُوا دوُنَهُ فَيَصْغُرُ عِندَهُمْ الْكَبِيرُ، وَيَعْظَمُ الصَّغِيرُ، وَيَقْبُحُ الْحَسَنُ، وَيَحْسُنُ الْقَبِيحُ، وَيُشَابُ الْحَقُّ بِالْبَاطِلِ، وَإِنَّمَا الْوَالِي بَشَرٌ لاَ يَعْرِفُ مَا تَوَارَى عَنْهُ النَّاسُ بِهِ مِنَ الاْمُورِ، https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-53-order-malik-al-ashtar
  14. I believe the overall issue is lying with the false comparison, for example what you're doing is comparing infallible Imams with righteous, yet fallible leaders. I wholeheartedly agree with you that an infallible leader/Imam is eons better than any Zaydi Imam. However, the issue is that such beings just don't exist in the real world. One of our Imams, Imam 'Abdullah b. Hamza said to the Imamiyah to bring them their occult infallible Imam and he would be the first to follow! The Zaydi model of Imamah is the most practical, and feasible one. It is the only model which can work in the real world, hence the Imamiyah realizing this 1100 years after the pointlessness of waiting for an Imam that will arrive and actually taking the matters of the Shari'ah in their own hands which in turn resulted in the establishment of Wilayat al-Faqih. The point you mention about Hitler's arising, and what not is a critique of Sunni Caliphate, not Zaydi Caliphate. The Zaydi Imam is to be obeyed only if he adheres to the Qur'an and Sunnah of the Messenger. The moment an Imam goes against the Qur'an and Sunnah, or commits a major sin such as fornication, or drinking alcohol his Imamah becomes null. No school between the Muslims is as strict, and practical when it comes to the leadership of the Muslim community. We don't allow fornicators, tyrants, and any such corrupt leaders in the Muslim Ummah, nor do we subscribe to a fantasy of immaculate Imams that (a) cannot be proven under scrutiny as demonstrated in the thread I shared, and (b) cannot be maintained in the practical world. The best system of Imamah is the Zaydi system, and it is that which ties the Imam to the Qur'an and the Sunnah. You mention people being foolish, and not knowing the difference between a man and woman, the issue here is that you seem to step ahead of the Qur'an, and the Sunnah, as I mentioned earlier the people know that the Imam who rises is one who has the objectively necessary qualities of Imamah. For example, the Qur'an tells us to establish the Hudud, pay the alms-tax, and pray the Friday prayer, this necessarily entails that the Imam is knowledgeable of matters of Halal, and Haram, and as Imam Zayd says it is necessary that the Imam knows the Muhkm, and Mutshabih of the Qur'an. If you would like to follow my page on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Zaydism I will soon share a more elaborative exposition to these points from the words of Imam Zayd himself. What we can say for certain is that there is absolutely no benefit that stems from 12er Imamah, as it is merely a impractical fantasy, and there is no evidence whatsoever for the belief in their Imamah to begin with.
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