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In the Name of God بسم الله


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Posts posted by Leibniz

  1. Shiasm is a heterogeneous mix of bad history and theology. A large part of Shia belief system relies on conspiracy theories. Its no wonder why the basic tenants of Shia Islam are missing from Quran. Shias have taken the politic conflict of rulership between Ali and the rest to another level. 

    Secondly , Shia Islam is just an antithesis of Sunni Islam and has no legs of its own to stand on. I have listened to various Sunni sermons/lectures focusing on other aspects of religion without the mention of Shiaism but i have not heard any Shia sermon devoid of rants regarding Sunnism.

  2. In terms of personal affiliation with religion , Shiasm might have some content but in terms of a social and political ideology there is a void. So much so that the very modern doctrine of "Willayat Faqih" utterly alien to classical Shiasm , has now become the dominant political doctrine of Usooli twelvers. The most mentioned "Path of ahlul bayt" is a vague and hollow emotional bandwagon which signifies nothing of a coherent and serious nature. As far as conversions , Shiasm can never attract masses like Sunnism for obvious reason. The basic tenants of Shiasm are feeble and stochastic , this chaotic structure is fogged and made palatable by the emotionalism of  Karbala , Ashura , Fadak , the broken rib etc but once the dust settles down , one finds himself chasing his shadow.

  3. 3 hours ago, Cool said:

    While I can see all of them are specifically about the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) and some do points towards wilayah of Ameer ul Mo'mineen (عليه السلام).

    For you, following verse is sufficient with its full meaning specially the end part in bold.

    As Einstein said "God does not play dice". You are making God and his words sound like the vague language of Latino hip-hop  which only the intoxicated hippies can understand. None of the verses are about about any Wilayah or ahlul bayt at all.

  4. 27 minutes ago, Logic1234 said:


    صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا الضَّالِّينَ 
    وَبَشِّرِ الصَّابِرِينَ الَّذِينَ إِذَا أَصَابَتْهُمْ مُصِيبَةٌ قَالُوا إِنَّا لِلَّهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ أُولَٰئِكَ عَلَيْهِمْ صَلَوَاتٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِمْ وَرَحْمَةٌ ۖ وَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُهْتَدُونَ

    هُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ

    فَمَنْ حَاجَّكَ فِيهِ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْا نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءَنَا وَأَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَنِسَاءَنَا وَنِسَاءَكُمْ وَأَنْفُسَنَا وَأَنْفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَلْ لَعْنَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ

    أَمْ يَحْسُدُونَ النَّاسَ عَلَىٰ مَا آتَاهُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ ۖ فَقَدْ آتَيْنَا آلَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَآتَيْنَاهُمْ مُلْكًا عَظِيمًا

    يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

    إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ 

    And I can keep continue quoting verses after verses from chapter 1 to 114. 

    I feel you pasted the wrong verses , none of them talks about Ahlul Bayt , Wilayah of Ali etc

  5. On 5/13/2020 at 4:28 AM, Logic1234 said:

    Everywhere in Quran.

    So I am not talking about those verses. 

    And it too is a toy in the hands of nawasibs who try their utmost effort to hide the great station of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) mentioned in Quran. And these nawasibs are the true sectarianists otherwise I have seen many Sunni scholars rejecting the reports that Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) married 300 wives & divorced 100's. Better look into yourself which school of thought you belongs to. 

    Yes, it is the case. What problem you have with it? Imam Ali (عليه السلام) did that and it is mentioned by Sunni & Shia scholars. 
    :) You accept wilayah of Abu Bakr by rejecting the wilayah of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as mentioned in Quran & as made clear by Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) from Zul'ashera to Ghadeer. So you have to answer that to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) one day. Get ready for it. 

    Where else in Quran? Quran is utterly blank about the Shia narrative. Its only through alot of dis-intellectual gymnastics that you can stretch twist fold the verses of make an unsuccessful case. I do not care a thing about what Sunni scholars say as i am not an orthodox Sunni. As far as problem , it is more than obvious. How on earth can someone give alms while doing Ruku'? And more importantly , why on earth would God use such a vague and whimsical situation to announce the Wilayah of Ali. If God intended so , there would have been explicit verses in Quran about it. 

  6. 1 minute ago, Logic1234 said:

    The "reality" of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) is well defined by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in Quran and by Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in his famous traditions. Anything contradicting to those are treated accordingly.  

    Where in Quran? No sane person can believe that the verses of Quran dealing with the wives of the Prophet would be infact telling us about the so called Itrat of ahlul bayt. You need a huge leap of faith and imagination to extrapolate that. The book of God has just become a toy in the hands of sectarianists who would twist the verses as their sectarian agenda fits into. Do you believe someone can be given charity while doing Ruku'? Do you think that God , as per 12ver version , would tell us about something as important as the Wilayah of Ali in such a whimsical way?

  7. 10 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

    I don't see how a reformation helped christianity...before and after

    Reformation did not help Christianity much theologically but socially it helped alot. It marked an end to the brutal Christian clergy using religion for politics and personal gains. The reformation shaped the west as it is today. Democracy , secularism , freedom of speech , scientific research and humanism all stemmed out of reformation. Theologically , reformation put an end to the Catholic innovations and malpractices as well. 

  8. 7 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

    At the end of the day though, Sunnis actually believe that Musa (عليه السلام) punched the angel of death.

    Bro i would not be much interested in Shia-Sunni polemics as i feel they serve no purpose but i would say that whatever whimsical hadiths i have found in Sunni books , can be more or less found in Shia books. The vast collection of hadiths are an encyclopedia of trash. You can find all kinds of irrational ,funny,unscientific,misogynistic,racist,mythical and homophobic stuff there. I can quote you all that stuff and i am sure you would run out of your defenses after 10. 

  9. 1 minute ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

    Bukhari & Muslim contain Sahih hadith of Musa (عليه السلام) punching the Angel of Death. Just saying...

    Right and much more , similarly Al Kafi contains hadiths narrated by donkeys

     أن أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام قال: إن ذلك الحمار كلم رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله فقال: بأبي أنت وامي إن أبي حدثنى، عن أبيه، عن جده، عن أبيه أنه كان مع نوح في السفينة فقام إليه نوح فمسح على كفله ثم قال: يخرج من صلب هذا الحمار حمار يركبه سيد النبيين وخاتمهم، فالحمد لله الذي جعلني ذلك الحمار

  10. 17 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

    I find shia sunni hadith books equally unreliable and contradictory... [edit] - i have issues with the Quran too, so that's just me.

    Muslims can't even figure out how to calculate their calendar based off a fixed and mathematical universe... all because of how scholars interpret hadith... how are these people supposed to save us spiritually? Just don't see it happening

    Right , sticking to orthodox Shia or Sunni creed these days need alot of blind faith. You shall have to fill your mind with religious fervor , stop questioning and become a part of herd. I wish Islam goes through some kind of global reformation like Christianity went through during the Protestant reformation otherwise there is no way out. "Scholars" from Hawzas and Madrassahs are just using the pulpits for sectarian purposes and religious scholarship has become more a matter of economics and finances 

  11. 6 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

    Any shia hadith book, sunni sufi sushi, you name it, none of these books make any sense - the only way they can make sense is if you have "scholars" telling you they make sense, if you ask questions they can't answer they tell you that you're not smart enough to understand these issues, or they will tell you to study yourself

    There is a difference between any book and Hadith books. A book may be perplexing due to the author's approach or the topic but Hadith books have to be something different in which the author is just the last narrator of sayings attributed to the Prophet or Imams. I have skimmed through Sunni Hadith books and i do not find them so much stupefying as compared to Shia books. There are a number of problematic Hadiths in Bukhari/Muslim but when compared with Al-Kafi , the number is far lesser. Then you have Bihar al anwar of Majlisi which is replete with most problematic hadiths  

  12. 1 hour ago, Logic1234 said:

    We view him as a human being having special divine blessings including the ismah & taharah. These two are among the very reasons why his obedience is made obligatory on us. 

    Right , i know that. Its only for this reason you would be scratching your head once you encounter the reality that infact he was a buman being like us valnerable to all those weaknesses and shortcomings that we all are.

  13. Hassan's divorces only become an issue when one sees him as a infallible divinely Imam rather than a human being. It is very much evident from his character that unlike his father and brother , he is a relaxed man who would rather sit than walk. He snubbed his father on the ocassion of Uthman's death and the snubbing continued all the way down to Siffain. He snubbed Hussein too when he showed reluctance to give pledge to Muaviya. Imam Hassan wanted to live a life of peace , harmony and tranquility and its no wonder that he married alot.

    While considering history of Islam , one should throw away the religious lenses and see it as any other history. Its only then the history and historical figures shall make sense.

    The Arab Bedoiun society after Prophet Muhammad went through a quick and robust social evolution. Wealth and luxuries were all of the sudden in abundance. Some of the Sahaba immersed themselves in power strugle as it happens every where. The only thing one can wish for after having plenty of wealth is power. The offsprings of the same Sahaba inhereted the genes of lust for power and the battles went on. It was only untill Abdul Malik ibn Marwan that the state authority became strong enough to curb the major rebellions and the Muslim empire became a "status quo" , a mix of secular and religious statehood full of ideological contradictions but practically viable.

  14. On 3/12/2019 at 1:50 AM, Panzerwaffe said:

    There was more cooperation between Umar and Ali than any of the 3 caliphs 

    Plus in umars time many of Ali supporters got political positions unlike in Abu bakrs time 

    And his policy of sabiqa favored his and close associates status atleast monetarily and in prestige if not politically 


    I think uthmans murder though was entirely justified 

    What I feel after going through the historical accounts is that Ali , Talhah and Zubair were the most politically ambitious "Sahabas". Zubair even sided with Hashmites for a brief period against the outcome of Saqifa.

    Interestingly these three " Sahaba" largely vanished from the scene once Abu Bakr took over and they remained inactive in terms of wars and administration. This further makes one believe that they were disgruntled and had a bad blood with the incumbent caliphs.

    Secondly , its also plausible that they were covertly planning against the caliphs to dethrone them. They were gathering and masting political support for themselves. All what these three were doing , actualized during the last years of Uthman. Ali had Egyptians , Persians and some Kufans on his side. Zubair had Basrans and Talhah had some support in Kufa. This political support which became obvious after Uthman , must have been gained in the decades pre  Uthman turmoil.

    Thirdly , the offsprings of these three were politically ambitious as well. They carried on the legacy and you see all the Alids , Zubayrites inspirants of caliphate. The sons of Talhah (Who was the weakest among the three) lost prominence and joined the Zubayrites. 

  15. On 3/12/2019 at 1:48 AM, Panzerwaffe said:

    If I was Imam Ali advisor I would have instigated a Ansar to murder Umar not a Persian client.They certainly had grievances against him.Or a relative of Talha or a  hot headed ummayyad would also be a good choice too.

    As it would have fragmented the ummah and then Imam could easily step in a  neutral peace maker being a quraish on one hand and Ansar relative on another and automatically become the caliph.Given his wide base of supporters and relation with Prophet Ali had the Trump card when it comes to negotiations.Plus he had the advantage of most opposition leaders they are untried and have a unblemished record.

    Why do you think he was closer to Persian clients ? You mean more than other sahaba 

    Yeah I feel so that Ali was more close to Persian clients than the Sahabas. Its more likely that he spent his life as a disgruntled man once he was denied the caliphate. He could not fight for it and he must have thought that the majority of Sahabas don't like him. The ultimate shelter for Ali were the Persian clients who were aliens in Hijaz then and Ali's affiliation with them was very natural. A lonely man had found a company and a political support , something which careied on for generations to come.

    The reports of his cooperation with Omar are scarce and I feel that if that was the case we should have had abundant reports about it. What do you why Ali opened the case of the killing or Harmazan and his daughter against Obaydullah Ibn Omar as soon he became the caliph? 

  16. On 3/9/2019 at 12:03 PM, ShiaMan14 said:

    Simple facade.

    Great, so you feel Imam Ali (عليه السلام) had a covert role in Umar 's murder because Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said, "I have no role in it" . So is Imam Ali (عليه السلام) a lying murderer or a murdering liar?

    There is no harm in murdering the enemy who wants to murder you. We don't know the exact circumstances but if Imam Ali had a role in Omar's murder , I don't find it something out of the blue. Murder was a normal thing back then.

  17. I was going through Twitter and I found a tweet which intrigued me. I have been hearing since my childhood that the Indian sage Mahatma Gandhi had expressed high praise for Al-Hussain. But the Tweet claims that its a fabrication and there is no evidence for this. Instead Gandhi has praised Abu Bakr and Omar. Can someone well versed in Gandhi comment on it? 




    Gandhi's praise for Abu Bakr and OmarIMG_20190310_200912.jpg.994992579b94199c621fc700ae964d83.jpg


  18. Just now, skyweb1987 said:

    Ubaidullah's orgy of murder

    When Ubaidullah a son of Umar heard the report of Abdur Rahman, he took his sword, and rushed out of his house to take the revenge for the assassination of his father. After stabbing Umar, Firoz had killed himself. Ubaidullah first went to the house of Firoz, and killed his wife and daughter. He then sought Jafina. He was a Christian of Hirah, who had been brought to Madina after the conquest of Iraq. He was employed in teaching the art of writing to the Arab students. Ubaidullah killed Jafina. Thereafter Ubaidullah went to Hurmuzan and killed him likewise. Hurmrzan was a Persian General who had been taken captive in one of the Persian campaigns. He accepted Islam and settled in Madina. Umar had sanctioned a stipend for him. When the Muslims came to know that in a fit of frenzy, Ubaidullah had killed four persons, they apprehended him and confined him to his house.

    The trial of Ubaidullah

    After assuming office as the Caliph, the first case that Uthman was to try was the case of Ubaidullah. Apart from Abdur Rahman b Abu Bakr no other person supported the theory of any conspiracy. Adequate evidence was thus not forthcoming to support the theory of the involvement of Jafina and Hurmuzan in the alleged conspiracy. Again, even if it was established that these persons had entered into a conspiracy, there was no justification for the killing of the wife and daughter of Firoz. Even if there were strong prima facie grounds for holding that the assassination was the result of a conspiracy, the State alone could have tried the accused and condemned them only when they had offered their defense, and the case was established against them. Ubaidullah had no right or justification to take the law in his own hand and murder four persons without affording them an opportunity for defense. That was the Arab practice of the days of ignorance which was in violation of the injunctions of Islam.

    I am not justifying Obayd's actions so spare me the copy paste.

  19. On the other hand , I feel Imam Ali had a covert role in the assassination of Omar. Firstly , Imam Ali was close to the Persian clients and right after the murder of Omar he has been quoted as saying "I have no role in it".

    Thirdly , when Obyadullah Ibn Omar went on spree killing to avenge the death of his father and ended up killing the daughter of Harmazan as well , it was Imam Ali who asked Uthman to impose death penalty upon Obayd as Qisas which Uthman refused.

    Fourthly , the first thing that Ali did as Caliph was to reopen Obaydullah's case and try him for the killings that he undertook as revenge of Omar's murder. This decision made Obaydullah flee to Mua'via and join his ranks.

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