AStruggler

My thoughts exactly! Alhumdolillah such mu'minas are still out there. Indeed, may Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless her and her parents.

@mrj Did you not read these 4 posts in this thread?: 1. https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235078706-tawassul-is-wrong/?do=findComment&comment=3387521 2. https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235078706-tawassul-is-wrong/?do=findComment&comment=3387641 3. https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235078706-tawassul-is-wrong/?do=findComment&comment=3387648 4. https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235078706-tawassul-is-wrong/?do=findComment&comment=3387686

Brother, I was following your messages but you lost me here. You cannot weaken this ziarath merely based on your feelings towards it. Additionally, the tawassul in it pretty much reflects the type of unanimously acceptable tawassul that even you expressed you agree with. Yes, we're using very endearing language towards the Ahlul Bayth (a), but this makes it loftier and is not a reason for concern. We're not addressing the Ahle Bayth as rab, but we're approaching them to intercede for us before Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). The ziarath is reliable even according to the very strict scholars. Go through the article I linked below about the views of the great contemporary researcher/professor Ayatollah Gharawi; who authored a filtered version of Mafati al Jinan. Interestingly, Ayatollah Gharawi seems to be strongly against Dua Tawassul, but he fully supports Ziarath al Jami'ah. Scroll down and see his comments on it yourself: https://shiismandislamichistory.wordpress.com/2020/10/16/prof-ayt-gharawi-dua-tawassul-shirkwilayat-e-takwini-and-the-errors-in-mafatih-al-jinan/ Moreover, I invite you to go through this amazing conference that I linked below. The first main presentation is by Dr. Mohammed Ali Ismail and it's a Hadith/Rijaal studies analysis on Ziarat Ashura. However, it includes Ayatollah Sistani's statement on Ziarat Jamiah as well. Lastly, while I didn't yet finish reading the great academic article (although read a lot) linked below, I think you will find it really helpful. It's a detailed analysis of Ziarah al Jamiah by respected Islamic researcher and author Bilal Muhammad, aka brother @Qa'im: https://iqraonline.net/the-historicity-of-ziyarat-al-jamia-al-kabira/ - It's posted on the well known IqraOnline shia academic articles website founded by Sayyid Ali Imran.

Haha brother, loved the way you described the situation. Well said. Also just a quick comment regarding the forced crying - while I'm not sure what exactly you mean by that, bit there is a lot of value in crying and making others cry for Imam Hussain (a). In fact, I believe it's also said to pretend like your crying if you cannot actually cry. One Sayyid explained this by saying that it triggers the psychological state to be able to truly cry for the Master of Martyrs (a). Although perhaps this doesn't translate to forced crying idk... For more info on the philosophy of mourning and the ahadith related to it, I think you should def check this amazing work out: https://www.islamic-college.ac.uk/shop/the-chronicles-of-the-martyrdom-of-imam-husayn/ It's a relatively new translation of a critically researched and encyclopedic account of the Karbala (and before and after it too) event according to the hand-picked reliable traditions. It includes important discussions pertaining to historical sources, interpretations of the Imam's stand, mourning as done by the Imams (a), historical developments of mourning, and the philosophy of mourning for Imam Hussain (a) as mourning as well. (You can find this book on z-lib etc. too.)

I agree with you that we should be doing all this. However, isn't it also established that there is great value and merit in being prayed for by another believer (I thought there were hadith on this no? Will need to double check), let alone the Prophet (s) and his Ahle Bayth (a). That's why, in addition to what you explained, I was thinking it shouldn't be problematic to at least ask them to pray for us, especially given the evidence confirming that they witness our deeds. Wouldn't it be categorized under what you said of doing the established...And, I wouldn't even call the act a dua, but a request for dua. For example, after discussing Ghuluw/Tafwid, the strong anti-ghuluw scholar (who's also been criticized by a lot of culture oriented Shias) Ayatollah Muhammad Hussain Najafi of Pakistan writes in his book, Essence of Shia Faith (which is an extremely elaborate commentary on Shaykh Saduq's book on Shia Creed): There are two qualified methods to approach God. 1. Appeal for health, sustenance, longer life and children should be directly made to God, supplemented through the names of the Prophet and his holy progeny. 2. Address the Prophet and his progeny and ask them to get the following requests granted from God. However direct rapprochement with the Prophet or Imams, avoiding God is not permissible in any sense, as it appears like Tafweez. (Pg 481 - http://islamicblessings.com/upload/Essence Of Shia Faith.pdf)

Brother, did you also read my other (first) post too? Your initial question is a separate (although related) issue and whether or not the Prophet and Ahle Bayth can witness our deeds is a separate issue. I already explained that according to Quran and and ample ahadith evidence that the Ahle Bayth get to see our deeds. The Imams can 100% witness our deeds. Please go through this link but below are a few excerpts from it: https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol3-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/part-11-purified-imams-are-witnesses-upon The Purified Imams ((عليه السلام).) are witnesses upon the creatures and the deeds of people are shown to them --- And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Apostle may be a bearer of witness to you. (Sura Baqarah 2:143) --- Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) is reported to have said that we are the witnesses over the people about their Halaal (permissible) and Haraam (prohibited) and about whichever of Divine Commandments have been broken by them. In Kafi and in Basair, Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) is reported to have said: Allah has made us clean of evils and also infallible and made us witnesses over the creation and also proof (Hujjat) in His earth and also He has made Quran with us and us with the Quran. Neither we will separate ourselves from it nor will it separate itself from us. -- It is narrated in Majalis of the Shaykh and Basairud Darajat with reliable chains of narrators that Ibne Uzniyaa once requested Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) to explain the meaning of the Divine Words: And say: Work; so Allah will see your work and (so will) His Apostle and the believers. (Sura Tawbah 9:105) The Imam replied: Here ‘believers’ means us. --- It is narrated in Majalis of the Shaykh and Basairud Darajat with reliable chains of narrators that Ibne Uzniyaa once requested Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) to explain the meaning of the Divine Words: And say: Work; so Allah will see your work and (so will) His Apostle and the believers. (Sura Tawbah 9:105) The Imam replied: Here ‘believers’ means us. The Shaykh has in Majalis and others have with reliable chains of narrators, narrated from Dawood ibne Kathir that he says that one day I was with Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) when, without my asking the Imam ((عليه السلام).) began to say: O Dawood! Your deeds were presented to me on Thursday and when I saw that you behaved nicely with your such and such cousin I became very glad and I imagined that this good attitude with relatives might be because of the realization of the fact that very soon his life would end and his death arrive. Dawood says that I had a cousin who was very bad natured and inimical towards me. I came to know that he and his family members are in big trouble. So before proceeding to Holy Mecca, I made some arrangement for the removal of his difficulties. Then when I reached Medina Imam ((عليه السلام).) informed me about this. Ali bin Ibrahim has, with reliable chains of narrators, narrated from Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) that, in this verse, ‘believers’ means the Holy Imams, and also that the deeds of righteous and evil servants are presented to the Holy Prophet (S) every morning. So, all of you should avoid presentation of your evil deeds to the Holy Prophet (S).

Some Relevant and Super Interesting QnAs from the Office of the Grand Ayatollah Saeed al Hakim (r) (Who Recently Passed Away): https://www.alhakeem.com/en/questions Supplication to the Infallibles Question : Can we supplicate to the Messenger of Allah, the Ahlulbait and the Imams (peace be upon them all)? Answer : The Dua (supplication) is a “request”, and since Almighty Allah is in charge of the universe and manages all creations, asking Him is direct. Requesting from others, like the Prophets or the Imams, is not permissible if the seeker considers them as being independent in dealing with his request, aside from Almighty Allah. This is like considering a partner with Almighty Allah. If the believer seeks the intercession of the Prophets and the Imams (peace be upon them) as they can then ask Almighty Allah to fulfill the seeker’s supplication, or he requests from Almighty Allah to fulfill his supplication by referring to the high rank of the noble personalities of the Prophets and the Imams (peace be upon them), then these two kinds of supplications are considered as permissible acts of worship. Intercession of the Ahlulbait Question : What is the ruling on doing Dua to the members of Ahlulbait (peace be upon them? Is it allowed to ask them for favors? Or is it better to ask directly from Almighty Allah? Answer : The dua (supplication) is asking Almighty Allah. The Imams of the Ahlulbait are intercessors to Allah and He does not reject their intercession. Nothing is wrong in seeking intercession from the Prophet and his household (peace be upon them). It is mentioned in the Holy Quran: “And if, when they had wronged themselves, they had but come unto thee and asked forgiveness of Allah, and asked forgiveness of the Messenger, they would have found Allah Forgiving, Merciful.” (4:64) Seeking Intercession Question : How do we seek intercession with God through the Prophet and Imams of the Ahlulbait (peace be upon them all)? Is there a certain dua? Answer : It was reported in some narrations that Imam Mosa Al-Kadhim – our Seventh Imam (peace be upon him) – said to his one of companions: “If you have a request from Allah say: Allahumma inni As’aloka bi haqqi Mohammadin wa Alliyyin fa inna lehuma shaanan minash-shaan, wa qadran minal-qader, fa bihaqqi dhalikash-shaan wa bihaqqi thalikal-qader, an tosalli alla Mohammadin wa Aal-Mohammad wa an……." then you mention your request. The translation of the said supplication is: “O my Lord I ask you by the right of Mohammad and Ali as they have a (high) position amongst the positions and a (high) value amongst the values. By this position and this value praise be on Mohammad and his progeny and…” then say what your request is. There are other supplications mentioned in books of supplication. Interceders Question : Is it correct to say that Allah Almighty has delegated some of His attributes to the 14 Infallibles (peace be upon them) and others like Abbas bin Ali (Peace be upon him), Zainab Bint Ali (peace be upon her) Sakina Bint Hussain (peace be upon her), like relief from problems and hardships, providing of sustenance, providing children, protection from danger, averting misfortunes, etc.? Answer : They are interceders to Almighty Allah and their intercession is His mercy to His slaves. Turning to Ahlulbait in Supplications Question : Is turning to Ahlulbait (peace be upon them) in supplications recommended? Answer : It is permissible to seek the intercession of the Ahlulbait (peace be upon them) to answer the requests, as it is one of the means to get the requests answered by the Lord. Asking Fatima (Peace be Upon her) Question : Sometimes I ask God by Fatima al Zahra (peace be upon her), and if my request is not fulfilled, I feel angry, and say to God, "If You did not fulfill my request for the sake Fatima, for whom will you fulfill it?" Have I rights to such dialogue with God? Answer : We should ask Almighty Allah as needy slaves. It is up to Him to answer our request or not. It may be in your best interests or there may be wisdom behind Him not answering it or delaying it. Almighty Allah said "It may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows, you know not." (2:216). The Most Effective Dua and Ziyara Question : What is the most effective supplication/ziyarat? Answer : There are many ziyarats taught by the Ahlulbait (peace be upon them) like al-Ziyarah al-Jami’ah, Ziyarat Warith and Ziyarat Ashura. There are also many supplications, like Du’a Kumayl and the supplications of al-Sahifah al-Sajjadiyah. Dua al-Tawassul Question : Is Dua al-Tawassul recommended to read, and who first taught it? Answer : We cannot confirm that an Imam has recited this supplication. Yes, it has been reported in some books that the said supplication is narrated from one of the Imams (peace be upon them). Supplicating to Almighty Allah through the Prophet or the Imams (peace be upon them) is amongst the recommended deeds, whether we use this particular supplication or another Dua. Dua al-Tawassul Question : Is Dua al-Tawassul more powerful if recited after Morning Prayer? Answer : The mentioned supplication is not amongst the supplications that are prescribed to be recited at the mentioned time. There are particular supplications that are specified to be recited in the early morning in the book "Mafateeh al-Jinan". Dua al-Adeelah Question : What is your opinion regarding the authenticity of Dua al-Adeelah? Is it from an Imam? Answer : Dua al-Adeelah which is mentioned in the supplications books is not related to an Imam. It is recommended to recognize the true beliefs when one is dying, and at all times, whether this done by reciting Dua al-Adeelah or using other ways to strengthen the true belief in one’s soul and defeat the attacks of Satan and his mischief. Supplication of "Nadi Ali" Question : Is the supplication of "Nadi Ali" authentic? Answer : This specific text is not amongst the supplications that have been narrated from the Infallibles (peace be upon them). However, it is permissible to recite it in order to seek intercession from Imam Ali bin Abi Talib, for the fulfilment of one’s needs and wishes. All matters are in God’s power, but he made the Prophet and his progeny (peace be upon them) intercessors.

@Mahdavist I have to admit, very solid argumentation. However, what about asking the awliya of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for prayers...? For example, "Ya Ali, please pray for me xyz...please get this xyz hajaat granted for me by Allah...?". Don't we have hadith/evidence about the greatness of being in another believer's duas? And these are the infallibles we're talking about, the holders of great authority as reflected in authentic texts such as Ziarah al Jamiah which is regarded extremely highly by even strict scholars (in terms of reliability). I've been flip flopping on this issue over the years, and even now I'm still kind of on the fence (it's just hard; if we try to be logically consistent in relevance to some of the verses of the Quran then even the other argument has strength too.) However, the above form of tawassul that I had described is my current stance / the stance I have fallen back on. I think it's a pretty balanced approach. Secondly, I would like to mention that I believe the Ahle bayth (a) do see our deeds: And say, ‘Go on working: Allah will see your conduct, and His Apostle and the faithful [as well], and you will be returned to the Knower of the sensible and the Unseen, and He will inform you concerning what you used to do. (Surah 9 Verse 105) And there are numerous hadith to this note in Basair ad Darajat by the Qummi (who were known to be very anti-ghuluw) Scholar known as Al Saffar, I believe in al Kafi as well, and also in Wasail al Shia. Now, I'm not sure if I have enough evidence to comment on whether the Imams (a) see our deeds "live"/momentarily, as if they'd be observing me if I call out to them at this moment, or if they see our deeds via some kind of reports they recieve. If I remember correctly, I have seen a few hadith which make it look like they see our deeds via some kind of reports they recieve of our deeds (e.g., in the morning and evening, on particular days), but considering the greatness of their authority as described in Ziarah al Jamiah and elsewhere, I don't deem it far-fetched if they also have the ability to listen to me momentarily/"live" if I call out to them...Regardless, Shaykh Mufid did assert that they can hear us at their shrines. If we agree the Imams (a) observe our deeds, irrespective of whether live/momentarily or through reports, then I don’t think it's a problem to at least ask them to pray for you. And if you're at their shrines, then you're basically talking to them directly for sure. Disclaimer: Just want to mention that I am no student of Islamic studies and my views are based off of my own humble internet research endeavours, so I could be wrong. And also, I didn't fully read any of the books I quoted.

JazakumAllah, thank you so much brother, excellent resources!

Brother, I invite you to please fully read the following two links, in this order: 1) https://www.al-islam.org/principles-faith-usul-al-din-husayn-wahid-khorasani/divine-leadership-imamat 2) https://www.al-islam.org/principles-faith-usul-al-din-husayn-wahid-khorasani/twelve-imams

@Zainabmuslimismat There are a lot of unreliable masaib that are often recited unfortunately. I don't know the reliability status of everything you asked about, but I'll provide the links to where you can read reliable accounts of what happened (including links to the above sources posted by brother Mahdavist): Relatively newly translated, extremley well researched, extremely exhaustive encylopedia-like book on the reliable accounts of what happened before, during, and after Karbala (also includes general discussions related to Ashura, e.g., analysis of the movement, the philosophy of azadari, the history of azadari, the ahadith of the Imams (a) mourning and encouraging the mourning for Imam Hussain (a), etc.): https://www.islamic-college.ac.uk/shop/the-chronicles-of-the-martyrdom-of-imam-husayn/ or https://www.al-buraq.org/products/the-chronicles-of-the-martyrdom-of-imam-husayn?_pos=5&_sid=8f9392478&_ss=r Revised edition (By Ayatollah Gharavi) of Abu Mikhnaf's account: https://www.al-islam.org/event-taff-earliest-historical-account-tragedy-karbala-abu-mikhnaf Al Luhuf by Ibn Tawus: https://www.al-islam.org/lohoof-sighs-sorrow-sayyid-ibn-tawusKitab al Irshad: https://www.shia-maktab.info/index.php/en/library/books/english?format=raw&task=download&fid=93 Kitab al Irshad by Shaykh al Mufid: https://www.shia-maktab.info/index.php/en/library/books/english?format=raw&task=download&fid=93 From Medina To Karbala: In The Words Of Imam Al Husayn by Ayatollah Muhammad-Sadiq Najmi: https://www.amazon.com/Medina-Karbala-Words-Imam-Husayn/dp/1908110228/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=from+medina+to+karbala&qid=1660097075&sr=8-1

Hahaha that was funny!

Couldn't have said it better myself. @islamicmusicI felt angered just reading about what happened. I think brother @Abu Hadi provided a great response. If it was me though, I would definitely have not left the area without using my words in the most harshest (but also dignified) of ways to make them at least tear up, if not feel like crąp from the inside. Note: this post only applies to the group of university students.

https://www.al-islam.org/