786:)

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-25-instructions-assessors-and-collectors-zakat If khums is greater than zakat then how come Imam Ali does not address it in Nahjul Balagha even once?

Sure, just browse through Nahjul Balagha. See if Imam Ali ever mentions khums in his sermons if it’s so necessary to our salvation. He repeats the Quran: salah and zakat. If you are so confident, feel free to provide a mutawatir hadith that points to khums being on overall wealth or income. I will gladly take back my claim. I’ve looked into this matter numerous times and the truth is evident to me.

I was born into a twelver family and agree with you 100%.

Look at the Arabic, this translation has fallen victim to bias. The word Ghanima (war booty) is in there.

Please provide a clear cut verse that supports this.

What’s funny is those who chant Ali Allah in the subcontinent also label those against such chants as nasibis.

So protecting the establishment of Tawheed is nasibi now? Lol sure pal. Theres a tafseer that states the only difference between Allah and Imams is that Allah is the creator of Imams and Imams are the created of Allah—everything else is the same. I am sure you submit to such shirk. And those who challenge this ghuluw is a muqassir and nasibi. LOL

You know there are tons of tafseers out there right? They ultimately are interpretation of fallible individuals from them attempting to connect HADITH with Quran. And I’m sure you know hadith can be a “pick and choose” game. Maybe if you brought mutawatir hadith in connection with a Quranic verse, you would have some legs to stand on, but to simply say “hey it’s in a tafseer, you can’t deny it now” is laughable.

Right. Imams have 99% of the knowledge of Allah has. The only 1% is day the of judgement? They know everything else? I will bring you clear cut verses of the Quran where Allah states the Prophet does not have Ilm ul Ghayb. But that won’t suffice because supposedly we are to judge the Quran with hadith that we like. Not the other way around.

Okay, even Sufis will claim even Moinuddin Chisti can give life and death too by the permission of Allah. That’s okay too? When the Quran gives examples, Isa was alive and Allah chose him to be the intermediary to give life. Imam Ali is dead. So are you saying he killed himself? Who was giving life and taking life when Imam Ali was alive? Are you saying Allah only does his job part time?

“How can you disbelieve in Allah when you were lifeless and He brought you to life; then He will cause you to die, then He will bring you [back] to life, and then to Him you will be returned. It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, [His being above all creation], and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things.” Quran 2:28-29 So when Allah refers to ‘he’, is he referring to Imam Ali?

This thread is full of ghuluw and shirk. We can’t wrap all of our shirk in “with the permission of Allah” and hope it gets bypassed. In the Quran, Allah states clearly he is the one who grants life and death. Then why even attempt to challenge that? I’m seeing clear cut evidence from the Quran challenged with hadith. I thought the most basic principle of hadith science is if it contradicts the Quran then negate it. Also, what is the fascination of giving Imams—in particular Imam Ali the characteristics of Allah? It makes no sense to me. The ghuluw is always with Imam Ali. It’s never with Rasoolallah—even this would be incorrect but I could understand it slightly more as there could be parallels drawn to Christians and their ghuluw with their messenger. However, for the Shias the ghuluw is always with Imam Ali. It’s like Christians saying John is the son of God and the Holy Spirit. Jesus was just a messenger.

@Mohammed-Mehdi not sure what’s so funny. Refer to this video of Kamal al-Haydari: @THREE1THREE since you follow Kamal al-Haydari, do you agree with this controversial opinion of his?

If you look at khums from strictly an academic point, it’s current methodology was added much after the time of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). The scope of khums has been extended over time to adequate the survival of Shiism. I hate how we are given the fairytale that khums was on income during the life of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). That is so false. The income tax in the time of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was zakat as outlined in the Quran several times. I would have no problem giving khums if they were truthful about its history, but you lose trust in such establishment for such deception.

The differences with the Sunnis are secondary beliefs. We all agree on the primary beliefs: Tawheed, Risalah of Muhammad and Qiyamah. Even 12er scholars have now put Imamah as Usool al-Madhab instead of Usool al-Deen as well.