ZethaPonderer

You can read more here, including the bibliography: http://lostislamichistory.com/mongols/

There is no extant copy of the book, but [some of] its contents were preserved in various compilations of hadith, like many of these early scrolls that were later lost. A reconstruction of Kitab `Ali has some sayings of Prophet Muhammad (s), mostly on ethics and law, but it is fairly short.
The dearth of early written documents is due to a number of reasons. First, in Arabia, before 140 AH, people wrote on bones (shoulders of camels), animal skins, leaves, and rocks. The durability of some of these materials is limited. The pre-140 AH books were all fairly short, with the Quran being the longest. There is however some recent discoveries in Jordan, Egypt, and Arabia of more rock inscriptions and epigraphs from the pre-Islamic and early-Islamic period, some of which mention Muhammad (s) or his companions by name or mention verses of the Quran. The earliest texts and inscriptions mainly echo what is found in the Quran and hadith compilations with surprisingly few discrepancies. Quran manuscripts are certainly much more alike than the Gospel manuscripts.
By 140-150, the Muslims co-opted papermaking from the Chinese and established the first papermills. Almost immediately after this point, there was an explosion of literature, thousands of books were produced. Some still exist, others were incorporated into the hadith compilations, and others were lost totally.
Many early texts were destroyed by the Mongol invasion. The Mongols threw the books from Baghdad's libraries into the Tigris until the river was black with ink. Many other books were gathered and burned. The Muslim scholastic culture still hasn't recovered from this incident. We have some of the names of these books, and some of their contents are quoted in other books, but a lot of content is simply lost forever.
Excavation will probably find more texts in the coming decades in Iraq, Iran, Syria, Arabia, Egypt, and North West Africa.

@andres
Fair enough, as my long post is off track and could be concise to fit in with the topic better. However, in all fairness I have difficulties being short, sweet, and straight to the point due to my overthinking nature. It's not just my greatest strength, but my ultimate weakness and I accept myself for who, what, how, why I am and live.
My mind just doesn't know when to stop thinking. Must've hit my head pretty hard as a 9 month old baby like Goku from the Dragon Ball Franchise which is true it did happen to me. Probably lost a brain nerve or two that would inhibit my ability to stop thinking for once.
But, my analogy of The Bible is close based on how the "way" its written judging by its textual structure with respect to The New Testament that most Christians hold dear to their hearts. Right now, I'm trying to understand The New Testament since that is relevant more so than The OT according to most Christians. So excuse me for my inability to understand what I don't. At least I'm trying.
I mean absolutely no disrespect based on what I'm about to question since I'm Muslim and thus accept that I don't have sufficient knowledge to understand Judeo-Christian History 100%. However, If what you say is true that most of the contents in The Bible can be considered epistles, letters, and testimonies written by people whom the majority of Humankind know so little of, which is very apparent in The New Testament and tricky to quantify in The Old since it is meant for Jews where the first 5 books can be considered canonical (AKA The Torah) while the rest of the OT is ambiguous to determine due to lack of authorship. Perhaps you can clarify who were the authors of the OT after the first 5 chapters within.
Then how do these letters, testimonies, and epistles, make The New Testament of The Bible be equivalent to The Injeel of Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS) exactly?
If anything it sounds exactly like Movie Critics and Movie Fans giving off their personal reflection, being artistic, criticism, giving off their testimonies (AKA Epistles, Letters, and Testimonies in The Bible) about The Movie [AKA The Injeel of Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS) in my analogy]. Hence, just because The Bible contains sneak peeks, trailers, and reviews of people testifying the Life and Teachings of Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS), which would surely constitute The Injeel, doesn't mean that The BIble IS The Injeel of Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS).

Hi ZethaPonderer
A long post you write, mainly of track, but I notice you states that the Quran never say the Bible or any of its many different books are corrupted. 
As for the other subjects you touch ( which would need new threads) let me remark that many different personalities have formed the many different Christian branches. So also in Islam. Interpretations based on the the teachings by Jesus and Muhammed, whos teachings were not entirely similar. The 4 Gospels and the Quran are  all very close in time to Jesus and Muhammed and our best sources for our two religions. 
Let me remark that if Paul created Christianity as you seem to think, it did not happen 100 years after Jesus. Paul was then by long dead. His oldest letters are from 20 years after Jesus death, and before this Jesus revealed himself to Paul, which was the reason for Paul converting and joining the Christian Church that already existed.

ZethaPonderer
The question of this thread has been answered. I will try to start a new concerning the beginning of our religions.

"Originated 100 years after" tells me how deep you've delved into this. 
Muslims have to believe in a lost injeel so they can doubt anything that came before Muhammad. We'll never know the true injeel because it was lost, right?. Think about it...
The injeel was a revelation from God. Prophets get revelations from God. How many versions do you think God handed out? Apart from demographics, was the revelation to Jesus any different than the revelation to Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Isaac? Would it be a different story than Adam got? God has not changed, why would His revelation between Prophets?
It's quite simple. The injeel was not a super special, only for Jesus book He got to carry around...that He lost before anybody else could see, it was the same revelation from the beginning of time. The idea that the injeel was wasted on one Prophet only serves forward. The next tactic was to accuse the Bible of claiming to be the injeel, therefore it becomes some sort of proof because it's obvious that first hand accounts from disciples can't be the divine revelation everybody seems to be looking for.
The injeel is mentioned 9 times in the Quran, never referred to as a book, but Muslims will accept nothing less. It's a catch 22 devised to cast doubt. It worked.
 
 

The question of this thread is not at all flawed. It is very simple. Does the Quran say the Bible, or some of the many books included in the Bible have been corrupted? The answer is NO.  Not very many ShiaChat members dare to admit this, prefering to write about the corruption of the Bible instead. It is true that we cannot know the exact text of the Bible since the first edition does not exist. This however is no different wjen it comes to the Quran. But we can be very certain that the texts of the Biblical books and the Quran has not been significally changed, which means they never contained the exact same message.
Christianity was established very soon after Jesus crucifixion. Or maybe even before. From Pauls letters, written 20 years after, we learn that the Church in Jerusalem was lead by James, a brother of Jesus. From secular history sources we know James was murdered around 70 AD. The oldest Gospel, Mark was written before this. 

Hence, my argument more or less stems from the question in the title itself being a flawed premise.
The Bible =/= The Injeel of Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS).
Thus, your last statement is correct since The Quran doesn't mention the Bible at all. Only the theology and some questionable teachings that some Christians practice.
As for the 4 Gospels being considered testimonies, these originated 100 years after Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS)'s alleged Crucifixion. What happened during those 100 years? Are there any historical analysis from 0 AD - 100 AD recorded down?
What the Quran concludes however, is that this "theoretical non-existing" Gospel you wish to conclude happens to be attributed to Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS) during his lifetime where his stern followers (mostly his people from where he was born which is Bethlehem, Israel) memorized. Did any of Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS)'s stern followers and their descendents survived during the 100 years and after 100 AD?
I would think not since those were the time periods as some Roman Emperors devoted to commit mass genocide upon followers of Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS) such as Emperor Nero (37 AD - 68 AD) and Caligula (12 AD - 41 AD) probably succeeded in killing them all. Romans were infiltrating the Middle East Peninsula during those times expanding their conquest. So anyone who put their faith and trust on Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS) as their Messiah would be putting their lives in grave danger during that time period.
Remember, Christianity wasn't realistically established until 100 AD. Long before Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS) was allegedly crucified.

Hi ZethaPonderer
The 4 Christian Gospels are early Christian testimonies about the life and teaching of Jesus. Like all other human writings they are not infallible. Critical scholars dispute whether a few passages are original or not. This does not change the content of their messages, that sometimes differ in details. 
It is clear that the Injeel you speak about not could be any of the 4 Biblical Goslpels. The Injeel is a theoretical nonexisting Gospel. Not even one single quote from it exists. It is entirely a product of Islamic thinking.
This is all of topic however. The question was if the Quran say the Bible has been corrupted. Everybody that has read these 15 pages by now should have understood the Quran never say so

I did read the post and it was a personal story of Silas explaining his situation of some Open Gays and their openness of what The Religion of Allah deems as sinful acts which is throat-shoving towards us as His Followers. But, it is just that. A Personal Story. Doesn't mean it is The Truth of this matter.
Thank you for expressing your concern towards me since I do live in USA after all which is known greatly for cultivating The Age of Misinformation Humanity lives under. May Allah help you too Muslim Laayla. Sadaq-Allah-ul-Ali-ul-Azeem.
Why not? Shouldn't Akhlaaq (Manners) and Logic (Aqal) go together like Bread and Butter? I believe Akhlaaq (Manners) and Logic (Aqal) should go hand in hand to become a better person. I'm not great on my Akhlaaq, but it doesn't stop me from working on it. I just want to let you know that if I came across pretty critical of you, that's because I care when I criticize a person. Especially towards my Muslim Ummah because I care about them especially in this Age where anyone can be Misinformed about anything. I'm no exception when I'll be misinformed just as much as any human. However, I'm self-aware and accept criticisms to overcome this terrible disease that plagues Humanity on a global scale. Thus, I shall not have ill will against you. Wish you peace too.
Sister, you've opened an interesting statement that I have trouble understanding when it comes to the idea that Homosexuals Oppress Themselves. I'll actually make a topic about that on the Theology Forum someday since it is a puzzling dilemma that is difficult to comprehend. If a person oppresses themselves in any way possible, does that make them an oppressor or does that make them oppressed?
I'll look up Pizzagate and John Podesta thank you for your recommendation.
Same here on my end. Hopefully Allah shall answer all our questions and positions we all hold at youm al qiyamma including you Laayla .
Allahafiz.

My point on creating this topic in the first place is to generate some semblance of awareness of the reality for how ambiguous the term Oppression has become and people just carelessly throw the term around to describe a Suppressed Individual as either an Oppressor or Oppressed. This is especially rampant in politics where Western Nations under Judeo-Christian Influence (Europe and USA) and Islamic-Dominated Nations (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq) are carelessly throwing this terminology around calling each other Oppressors to stifle peace and create endless confusion for the ignorant masses.
You'd be surprised how people are more willing to believe in the archaic definitions of a term/word.
E.g. The archaic meaning of Debate under Intransitive Verb according to Merriam Webster Dictionary means to Fight or to Contend.
Hence, my topic is to express my confusion towards the reality of how people are defining terms/words so loosely and ambiguous to the point where they ultimately lose their purpose.
I'm afraid I also lack common sense despite my decently sound Aqal.
Your post is the best one I've seen so far since you understood perfectly well for what I implied in my topic. Thank You for helping me understand what truly is Oppression.

Mixing adjectives with verbs doesn't help either.
Oppressive: an adjective: 1] difficult to hear; 2] physically or mentally distressing.
Oppress, verb, 1] to subjugate, 2] to weigh heavily
Oppressor, noun,
Oppression, Communist propaganda, word chosen for hysterical accusation

Makes sense. Thank you for your post because the term "Oppress" and "Oppression" has broad definitions based on these dictionaries I posted. Hence, it is confusing to understand the terms themselves since they become ambiguous and open for interpretation. 

" zulmato nafsi", this term used in dua e kumail to indicate the " oppression" that we do on ourself. But that doesn't make us oppressed. Why?( And there is no paradox) Simply because it doesn't involve anyone else. It is a matter between ourself and Allah. By oppressing ourselves with haram acts we have voilated and also misused the blessings that Allah has given us. 
My point is that for oppression to take place there has to be a doer and a receiver but with the 'self', there is just us. Hence if we oppress ourself, we don't become oppressed we simply become what its called in Arabic ' fasik' transgressor. 

Makes sense. Thank you for your post because the term "Oppress" and "Oppression" has broad definitions based on these dictionaries I posted. Hence, it is confusing to understand the terms themselves since they become ambiguous and open for interpretation. 

I have a profile photo. I am Jogurt The Yogurt from a Strategy RPG known as Shining Force: Legacy of The Great Intention released on the Sega MegaDrive/Genesis at 1992.
Basically my profile looks like a Hamster with a Helmet that vaguely resembles to the Storm Troopers from the movie franchise Star Wars.
:P

I think you got it backwards. Fighting and supression is not inherently oppression. Fighting to eliminate injustice and evil is not oppression, otherwise we'd have to call the prophet (sawa) an oppressor. Taking away the God given rights of people or fighting for the triumph of evil is opression. Self struggle or jihad anafs is fighting to eliminate the evil that resides within us. 

I have a profile photo. I am Jogurt The Yogurt from a Strategy RPG known as Shining Force: Legacy of The Great Intention released on the Sega MegaDrive/Genesis at 1992.
Basically my profile looks like a Hamster with a Helmet that vaguely resembles to the Storm Troopers from the movie franchise Star Wars.
:P

@ZethaPonderer ^ Jogurt The Yogurt looks cheerful with arms up in the air, like you scored a GOAL!   

I have a profile photo. I am Jogurt The Yogurt from a Strategy RPG known as Shining Force: Legacy of The Great Intention released on the Sega MegaDrive/Genesis at 1992.
Basically my profile looks like a Hamster with a Helmet that vaguely resembles to the Storm Troopers from the movie franchise Star Wars.
:P

Basically my questions goes like these,
If a person oppresses themselves, does that make them an oppressor or the oppressed? Seems paradoxical IMHO if I were to accept the former because if I were to focus solely on the situation of this scenario at face value, it seems to be the person is coming across as the oppressed. So, how is it possible for them to be the oppressor while at the same time be oppressed by themselves?
Could it be the person might be doing the Art of Inner Jihad (Self Struggle) where they're fighting the Animalistic Evil Tyrant Side of 'Self' from within that wants to possess them to embrace indulging in forbidden acts against Humanity regardless of their beliefs? If so, then who are we to truly label such people who are struggling with themselves as oppressors? Shouldn't we give them therapy to overcome their self-oppression.

@hasanhh To answer your questions, no. I haven't read a single femi-nazi literature or any form of literature that vaguely resembles femi-nazi in anyway.  And I haven't read the Schema Therapy, so I guess I can research on that. As for the lexicographic rule you're stating, fair point but you're implying on your statement that Oppression has an objective definition that is precise and everyone can agree on when according to most dictionaries the definitions come across broad.
 
@starlight Thanks for your input. Straightforward and simple. So, what I'm understanding from your statement is that since the term 'Oppression' is being defined under a political stance (since that's what it looks like at face value based on the many definitions I've stated out) , then this term cannot be implemented under a broad scope when understanding Self-Struggle.
Self-Struggle =/= Oppression Against Self.

Have you been reading femi-nazi literature?
Or reading on Scheme Therapy?
Then there is this lexicographic rule: you cannot define a word by using the same word, the object of definition.

I don't think saying 'gay people' are lower than animals is acceptable. Yes, the sin of 'homosexuality' is the most disgusting act that a human can ever perform just like incest etc.
However this language will drive people away from Islam and result in them becoming all emotional and ignorant. Gay people will continue to come out and promote 'homosexuality', now till the day of judgement. It is our duty to express our concerns with wisdom. 
Children in this day and age are becoming very ignorant. My little sister has pro-homosexuality views and it really bothers me. However if I say "gay people are worse than animals", "they are filth" etc. Then she becomes even more ignorant and wouldn't even be willing to argue with me.
Instead, lets educate our children and give rational arguments as in why homosexuality is horrible. We should also focus on strengthening their beliefs. If children are raised with strong Islamic values, then they won't ever agree with homosexuality.

First of all. I'm a brother, not a sister. Second of all, I understand what you mean and I respect where you're coming from. However, your emotions cloud your reasoning to understand such a sensitive topic. I am against the Homosexuality lifestyle just as much as the rest of the Muslim Ummah, but it doesn't mean I am against the Non-Muslim's RIGHT to adhere to that forbidden lifestyle. Plus, your line of logic really doesn't make sense and is very skewed.
People attracted to Same Sex = Predators towards children.
I wish that were true, but the unfortunate reality is that anyone can be a pedophile regardless of their sexual attraction/orientation so it's not entirely exclusive towards Gays. Not all Gays are pedophiles nor are All Gays oppressors as you claim based on scientific facts.
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html
Anyway goodnight Muslim Laayla