ZethaPonderer

An article about wombat's poop turning into cube shaped poops. What a brilliant metaphor for how close minded and facetious you're coming across. It's one thing to disagree on what people think the Muslim world needs right now, but its another thing entirely for you to look down upon the whole art of philosophy being nothing more than people being pretentious and pseudo-intellectual madmen.
So what's your statement that I highlighted, underlined, and increased the size of one word for convenience, emphasis, and understanding,
"All of what constitutes Philosophy are pretentious, intellectual flatulence".
You sir could make the same remark about The Prophets (AS) of Allah along with Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and his Ahlul Bayt's philosophies being nothing more than pretentious, intellectual flatulence for the ignorant masses. What sheer hypocrisy.
I have nothing against Science. I just don't put my trust on this field anymore due to a few bad apples of scientists using "Science' as a means of indulging in Eugenics (Gene Manipulation of All Living Things) and Weapons of Mass Destruction (Atom Bombs and Nuclear Weapons).

An article about wombat's poop turning into cube shaped poops. What a brilliant metaphor for how close minded and facetious you're coming across. It's one thing to disagree on what people think the Muslim world needs right now, but its another thing entirely for you to look down upon the whole art of philosophy being nothing more than people being pretentious and pseudo-intellectual madmen.
So what's your statement that I highlighted, underlined, and increased the size of one word for convenience, emphasis, and understanding,
"All of what constitutes Philosophy are pretentious, intellectual flatulence".
You sir could make the same remark about The Prophets (AS) of Allah along with Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and his Ahlul Bayt's philosophies being nothing more than pretentious, intellectual flatulence for the ignorant masses. What sheer hypocrisy.
I have nothing against Science. I just don't put my trust on this field anymore due to a few bad apples of scientists using "Science' as a means of indulging in Eugenics (Gene Manipulation of All Living Things) and Weapons of Mass Destruction (Atom Bombs and Nuclear Weapons).

For those of you who prefer 'philosophy' with all of its pretentious, intellectual flatulence, here is an item you can use to compare to your own ideas:
WARNING: Do Not Eat or Drink While Reading This
https://gizmodo.com/we-finally-know-how-wombats-produce-their-distinctly-cu-1830414749 
lt gets better towards the end . . . the reading that is.

Why not both? Have a hardline established ‘philosophy of peace’ that ALL of Humanity can agree on which will allow for scientific growths and achievements dedicated for bettering Humanity and achieving peace.
Science and Philosophy should go together. Imam Jafar Sadiq (AS)’s legacy speaks for itself.
If there is no established ‘Philosophy of Peace’ to support Scientific Growth, then we’ll just be walking the path of Qabil by creating even more Weapons of Mass Destruction and Chaos.
 
My vote: Philosophy. Because to me, Philosophy comes first, then Science later.

'More' in the sense that more than the numbers we have presently. Not more of one at the expense of the other.
I would prefer going with philosophers, because, in the present situation, Islam faces the greatest ideological challenge and existential threat from colonial and post- colonial modernity, dealing with which requires a deeper epistemological engagement with it. This is a task for which we need more philosophers and social scientists.

Less than six hundred years ago, the two were the same. 
Definitely we need more scientists. Both are important, but for every 100 scientists making new discoveries and working to understand phenomena, only one philosopher is needed to communicate that science into a spiritual or moral "reality" that the public can relate to. 
However, scientists need to have at least a basic understanding of philosophy, and scientific philosophers need to have at least an intermediate understanding of science. 

Why not both? Have a hardline established ‘philosophy of peace’ that ALL of Humanity can agree on which will allow for scientific growths and achievements dedicated for bettering Humanity and achieving peace.
Science and Philosophy should go together. Imam Jafar Sadiq (AS)’s legacy speaks for itself.
If there is no established ‘Philosophy of Peace’ to support Scientific Growth, then we’ll just be walking the path of Qabil by creating even more Weapons of Mass Destruction and Chaos.
 
My vote: Philosophy. Because to me, Philosophy comes first, then Science later.

Why not both? Have a hardline established ‘philosophy of peace’ that ALL of Humanity can agree on which will allow for scientific growths and achievements dedicated for bettering Humanity and achieving peace.
Science and Philosophy should go together. Imam Jafar Sadiq (AS)’s legacy speaks for itself.
If there is no established ‘Philosophy of Peace’ to support Scientific Growth, then we’ll just be walking the path of Qabil by creating even more Weapons of Mass Destruction and Chaos.
 
My vote: Philosophy. Because to me, Philosophy comes first, then Science later.

Why not both? Have a hardline established ‘philosophy of peace’ that ALL of Humanity can agree on which will allow for scientific growths and achievements dedicated for bettering Humanity and achieving peace.
Science and Philosophy should go together. Imam Jafar Sadiq (AS)’s legacy speaks for itself.
If there is no established ‘Philosophy of Peace’ to support Scientific Growth, then we’ll just be walking the path of Qabil by creating even more Weapons of Mass Destruction and Chaos.
 
My vote: Philosophy. Because to me, Philosophy comes first, then Science later.

Based on how current events are going, it seems FouseyTube is having a bad case of a mental illness.
Maybe someone can enlighten me under what branch and sect does FouseyTube adhere to in Islam if he's going to consider himself as a Muslim. If Sunni, then under what sect? If Shia, then under what sect?
Because to me personally, he along with another Muslim Youtuber Adam Saleh, are such terrible influences to everybody regardless of their beliefs to the point they don't even deserve to be known as Muslims in the eyes of the Muslim Ummah nor to Non-Muslims either.
All on the outside, but what about the inside when it comes to being a Muslim? I think these so-called celebrity "Muslim" Youtubers should ask themselves. Too bad self-reflection and humbling yourself these days is a rare thing for anyone to do.

Let's be real here @andres. It's not even the idea that some Muslims will immediately consider the Trinity Theology of Christianity a Polytheistic belief, but based on the concept of how Monotheism is defined, the Trinity Theology unfortunately challenges the notion of Tawheed "The Oneness of God" which is a big NONO in not only Islam, but also in some sects of Judaism.
You're making a statement that The God of Abraham can do whatever He wants and wills which would easily explain The Trinity Theology and why He could split Himself into 3 forms that constitute The Father (YHWH), The Son (Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS)), and The Holy Spirit. However, what The God of Abraham does must correlate with reason. There is always a reason for why God does what He wills and wants. Sure we as Human Beings may never understand His reasons immediately (maybe someday in the distant future), but The Trinity Theology defies reason altogether based on what I'm about to present so allow me to give you the benefit of the doubt.
 
If it is established under the Old Testament in The Bible that The God of Abraham is One and Only (which would strongly imply that He is "Whole" as well given by the "Only" nature of Him) based on given evidences (Deuteronomy 4:35-39, Deut 6:4, and Psalms 86:10) then what reason does He/It have in the New Testament to seemingly split His Oneness into 3 entities: The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit? Is He/It not limiting His immeasurable power by doing so? Why Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS) as the Son of God? Because he came into existence from his virgin mother Mary? Why not Prophet Adam (AS) be the Son of God since he came into existence without the need of a mother and a father and YHWH directly created him? Does that not make his existence superior to Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS)?
Case in point, The Christian Trinity makes no sense to Muslims just as much as "some" Jews since it seemingly violates the concept of Monotheism (Tawheed) of The God of Abraham in all respects.
This concept of monotheism Christians propose is truly alienating because of the plausibility of the Trinity Theology that was established as a doctrine from the Council of Nicea at 325 AD, ascribing Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS) and The Holy Spirit being equal to YHWH (The Father) which IMO goes against everything the OT YHWH was described being One and Only.
It's not that Reason is all around superior to The God of Abraham, but He's so above and beyond everything His creations could comprehend that Reason follows Him.

@iraqi_shia What @andres is trying to discuss here is the Quranic Manuscript Controversy where the First 3 Caliphs (most notably Umar and Uthman) have already compiled their Quran Manuscript that the vast majority of Muslims have today in which the Order of The Chapters/Suras are NOT in Revelation Order that was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (SAW).
https://www.missionislam.com/quran/revealationorder.htm
http://tanzil.net/docs/revelation_order
 
Also I would like to introduce these websites that talks about The Quranic Manuscript Controversy to all my Muslim brothers to engage in this important discussion
https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/mss/
https://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/vol-8-no4/some-old-manuscripts-holy-quran-kazim-mudir-shanehchi
 
We know that our beloved First Imam Ali-ibne-Abi-Talib (AS) compiled his own Quranic Manuscript, but was rejected by the authority of Umar and Uthman in favor of the Quranic Manuscript we Muslims have nowadays in which the ordering of the Suras is in terms of how long the Ayats are in which Chapters (e.g. Surah Baqara is the second chapter from The Quran we have while in Revelation Order it is the 87th Chapter of The Quran).
 
So I must ask an important question. If we know that Surah Al-Alaq (Chapter 96) is the First Chapter revealed to Prophet Muhammad (SAW) in the Cave of Hira then how do we know this information? Because no verse in The Quran starts with Iqra (Read) other than Surah 96: Al-Alaq? How did we obtained this information about the Quran's Suras not being in Revelation Order? Did we obtain this information from how Ali-ibne-Abi-Talib compiled his Quranic Manuscript? Was his (AS)'s Quranic Manuscript in an order by which the suras were revealed to Prophet Muhammad (SAW) chronologically?
 
You should know better that all living creatures God creates will speak differently. But, you as a Christian should understand that The God of Abraham gifted Prophet Solomon/Sulaiman (AS) the ability to speak to different living beings in our beloved planet? So, of course the way how Solomon (AS) will speak to a living being that is Non-Human will be incomprehensible for Modern Man to understand, but what The Quran confirms that these are what the Non-Human living beings that Prophet Solomon (AS) conversed with spoke. Do you doubt how Prophet Solomon (AS) interpreted the Non-Human living creatures he spoke during his lifetime? How Un-Christian of you.
At least, The Quran confirms this as a phenomenon.
All in all, I would like to end it with this. Even though The Suras of The Quran might not be in Revelation Order, the Ayats of The Quran at the very least are preserved 100% based on the information of what we know about The Sahabas of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and their legacy,
https://www.al-islam.org/prophethood-and-prophet-islam-ayatullah-ibrahim-amini/revelation-and-preservation-quran
Sure not all Sahabas were perfect as Sunnis would like to believe, but some did their best to follow Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and memorize the ayats with 100% accuracy.

You are asking an irrelevant question.
there is no word “bible” in Quran.
let alone being in any condition !

You see this is a circular argument. We do not really know how the Bible we have today came into existence. The oldest books are in greek. None of the people around Jesus or Jesus spoke greek. So to rely on the thing you are trying to prove, is not going to work.
We cant use the Bible to say Like is a good guy, hes mentioned in the Bible etc. 
Yes.
We have reliable chains of narrators for the Quran, they are named, their full biographies are known, where they were born, who their families were etc. Also the Prophet SAW himself knew the quran by heart, as did many others, in the lifetime of the Prophet. This is well documented. This is the difference. Prophet Jesus, may God bless him, never saw the Bible we have today, God knows what he would think of it. Our Prophet SAW completed the Quran in his life time. There is a major difference. 
Yes, it is our believe that God protected this quran from alteration, as it is a message from now till doomsday, which no other book was for. All previous books contained information that was contextual, subjective and limited. That does not mean there is no values or principles in those books.
Religion revealed from God is like school. In year one, its a few basic things, and some coloring and allegorical stories etc. In year 2, here are some new concepts, some more detail etc. Until we get to university level, in which we learn the full reality of the religion. Do you still keep your nursery science books ? Do you keep your year one maths book as a reference? No, people use the most recent, most advanced things as a guide. 
Different versions? We do not believe in that. So its no issue for us. We only accept one version, which is the one the vast majority of Muslims accept.
Even if you put that aside, so what? there is a slightly different pronunciation of certain letters? so what? On the other hand we have a bible and we do not know who wrote it , when, and in what original language, and your concerned how to pronounce letters?
Why did God not preserve the Bible? As I mentioned, the tribe of the Israelite are not the whole of humanity, there are other prophets, other peoples. Each prophet is bring his people up to a certain level, to try and push them forward so that they are at a point where they can appreciate and understand the final message. The previous books are just a stepping stone to get to where we need to be, which they have done. Now we are in a different era, the universal era, the era where tribes, countries and races are redundant. We are really just one people now, and hence, a book just for the Israelite, or just for such and such a tribe really doesn't make sense. 

While I can see the reasoning for this @Abu Hadi, the issue stems from when both users from opposing sides are debating amongst one another and one or both of the users clearly wants to win the debate at any means necessary. So if an issue occurs like this, does that mean that such users are spam bots? I'll take your warning of Spam Bots infiltrating ShiaChat seriously just so you know.
Anyway, my motto when debating is as follows:
I don't debate to win. I debate to learn and get schooled.

Andres, 
The problem is that Christians do not seem to care about authenticity. So for example, they will just take a document and accept its contents as "from God", or authentic, and they do not even know who wrote the book, where it was written, at what time, and even in what original language. 
We can point to almost every book of the new testament, and we do not know who wrote it. We dont even have a full name for any of them, let alone a real full name, and life story etc.
Im not saying we should disregard the Bible and all old texts because we are not sure about them, but I think we just need to take a step back and think, if I was passed a document like this today, on a different topic, how would I feel about it? If its different, then we have a problem. 
 

Imam Jafar Al Sadiq’s principle towards to the tyrant of his time 
i post it that say when 300 scholars were under dominance  of that tyrant king so they changed & distorted everything in Christianity in his favor as 4 great sunni Imams changed narrations & interruption of Quran in favor of tyrants but they can’t change Quran as Christian scholars changed the Bible .

Hi Constantine did everything to held his empire like as tyrant Umayyad & Abbasid rulers that oppressed Shia Imams (as) by using corrupted scholars to create Sunnis schools of Taughts since they knew that infallible scholars were Imams (as) 
Our main scholars that explain to us areinfallible  Ahlulbayt (as) which Imam Mahdi(aj) is in charge now 
 
We pray him both in private & public & don’t limit him so he is both public & private god 
it translated to most gracious most merciful , the most gracious refers to publicity & the most merciful refers to private 
It is sunni doctrine not Shia doctrine we follow Quran & Ahlulbayt that tied toghether & never separates from each other until they enter in heaven to presence of Prophet (pbu) ,the Quran is silent book & Ahlulbayts are speaking Quran that both of them are infallible 
 
 

Oh you think We can not prove it by Quran?!!
Are you a troll ?!!
Let see what Quran says, and then compare it to your corrupted Bible :
Quran: god does not have anyone son. Corrupted Bible: God has many son
Quran: all prophets are sinless. Corrupted Bible: most Messengers were sinners.
Quran: human child borns without sin. Corrupted changed Bible: human child borns with sin
That's by Quran NOT by Hadith !
That was your proof.

That's not the way history reads. Constantine was never considered a tyrant, nor was his Christianity only to persuade Christians. The empire was split and Constantine just wanted it settled. It wouldn't have taken 7 years if he detailed what he wanted a bible to say. I don't believe it was altered nor compiled in a manner to please Constantine. 
The corruption that came out of the council of Nicaea was the divinity of Jesus. Trinity came years later.  
As far as scholars go. Just about any accredited scholar has worked for someone who does want an interpretation to lean to their way. Usually they start with the desired end result and justify it back to the beginning. I believe the Bible has been subjected to the same corruption as the Quran. Concordance = tafsir and every sect creates their own. Catholics were discouraged from reading a Bible until the mid 70's when they finally came out with a version of the NT that Catholics and Protestants could read. I don't care for modern versions, they twist the interpretation and add opinions in brackets much like the Sahih international version of the Quran.

The idea that God would relay a divine message to mankind that is too difficult for mankind to understand without the help of a scholar is also disturbing. We've all been duped into man made god laws, public hoops and hurdles to make sure we follow a defined line. I've argued doctrines vs Bible until I was told to leave the church. If there were alterations in the text, I would have never been able to have those discussions. 
We all know that God is a very personal God and is best found in private. The NT notes prayer should be done in private, all Prophets are known to have left the people to pray in private, yet Christian and Muslim alike prefer prayer in crowds. God is not impressed by a public display of what could possibly be described as disobedience. The public scene is for people to witness, and a control test for the leaders, not for God. The one who prays for the sake of the congregation prays for his own benefit. 
Let's not be putting anyone down. That never happens here.
I come from the land of thick skin and haven't actually noticed you being rude. When I say you write a lot, it wasn't meant in a bad way, it just means I have to read a lot. Honestly, I've been over most of it more than once. There's 15 pages here, I'm on every page. It will give you a better idea of my understanding on the topic. Not sure there's much more I can say without saying it over again.
Actually, every third thread ends up on the same subjects, regardless the title. Andre and I just rehash for new people. It's wha wha over bible corruption, or trinity.  Neither of us are trinitarians so the argument has to come back to corruption. 
The Bible corruption threads all end up about the same as this one. Every Muslim knows for sure it's corrupt, but cannot prove it by the Quran. They have to go to the Sunnah, or ahadith, or tafsir, which are geared to isolate Islam from Christianity through wise leverage instead of proof. Your job is to believe that nobody in that chain would ever alter the truth to exclude the Christians that the Quran accepts, (also Jews and Sabiens).  Regardless the Quran says in the last day Christians shall not grieve, every Muslim believes that is wrong because everything besides the Quran says so.  
Years ago now but Muslims admitted there is one and only one divine book from God and that is the Quran, word for word, black and white. The Sunnah is held in super high esteem and takes precedence  over the Quran in most cases. It's been frustrating at times when I assume people are talking Quran only find out I'm arguing Quran vs Sunnah. Same like when it was bible vs doctrine except I don't know much about the Sunnah yet. Like you said about learning.

While I can see the reasoning for this @Abu Hadi, the issue stems from when both users from opposing sides are debating amongst one another and one or both of the users clearly wants to win the debate at any means necessary. So if an issue occurs like this, does that mean that such users are spam bots? I'll take your warning of Spam Bots infiltrating ShiaChat seriously just so you know.
Anyway, my motto when debating is as follows:
I don't debate to win. I debate to learn and get schooled.

While I can see the reasoning for this @Abu Hadi, the issue stems from when both users from opposing sides are debating amongst one another and one or both of the users clearly wants to win the debate at any means necessary. So if an issue occurs like this, does that mean that such users are spam bots? I'll take your warning of Spam Bots infiltrating ShiaChat seriously just so you know.
Anyway, my motto when debating is as follows:
I don't debate to win. I debate to learn and get schooled.

I have noticed recently that there are lots of spam bots who got interested in this site, for some reason, although it is a low traffic site compared to other social media platforms and discussion boards. 
Having conversations with a spam bot is useless. It is useless because for human beings, the point of having a conversation is either to create good feelings and bonding, i.e. building up civil society, or to come to a conclusion about a topic and discover truth. Since a spam bot is essentially a computer program (although it may use many different computer programs to create it's output, i.e. the conversation) so it has not feelings and is not interested in discovering truth or building up civil society. It is only interested in doing what it is programmed to do. The programming goals vary, but most of the time they are focused on the interests of the particular group that spent time and resources developing the bot program. The groups that deploy these spam bots are almost always hacker groups (for financial gain or reputation points which doesn't apply here since there is no money changing hands here and no reputation since 'hacking' this site is not really a goal that would get most hackers any reputation points) or 'anti' whatever groups with resources. Many of these spam bots are developed and deployed by foreign intelligence agencies such as the CIA, MI6, and Mossad when it is in their interest to try to destroy a social media platform that they see as a threat to their interests. 
How to Spot a Spam Bot. 
This used to be easy in the old days when these programs were less sophisticated. They would usually use Anonymous Proxy services so their location information would keep changing. So they might post from an IP Address in China in the morning and in Germany in the evening. Also, they would give 'canned' responses to questions, responses from a list of written responses in their program. They also used to generate 10s or 100s of posts per day (thus the 'spam' part). 
The modern ones (last 5 years) use AI (Artificial Intelligence) so they are harder to spot. They don't respond from a list of 'canned' responses but generate their responses 'on the fly' from parameters set by their program. They also have the ability to learn and adapt based on the flow of the conversation (to a limited degree). Because these mimic human responses, you can never be 100% sure if a user is a spam bot, at least the modern ones. They will change the timing and content of their posts to try and fit within what other people are saying. 
There are, however, a few ways that the spam bots can be spotted. 
1) When you ask them a question, their response does not seem 'human'. They are not sophisticated to process your question how humans do, so their responses will seem 'off'. Also, their responses will usually reference generic information that could be found on, say Wikipedia, and they will not filter this information based on the parameters of the conversation, like humans do. For example, if you ask them a general question like, 'How did you like living in Paris', they will give you a generic answer from a tourist manual rather than picking an individual or few experiences that touched them emotionally, like a human would do. 
2) There is no movement in their thought. They come onto the thread with a 'pre planned' agenda which does not change. If you debate with them a bring up specific points which counter what they said, they will either not respond and continue posting material from past 'states' of the discussion, or they will insult you, or they will ignore your response. I know there are humans who also do this, lol, but their responses are more 'human like' i.e. they get angry, admit that certain parts of their analysis of the issue is weak or uninformed, or will focus on a sub area of the topic that has gotten traction in the thread but may not help out their side of the argument. In short, a human response will include movement in thought and some unexpected or 'off script' moments. A bot's response will not include these. 
If you are not sure if a user is a spam bot, they best way to find out is to ask the bot questions that are more general in nature and involve 'emotional intelligence'. If you determine that a user is a spam bot, please stop responding to this user and don't waste your time. The goal of these bots is to waste your time and keep the conversation either going in circles or moving toward whatever agenda they are programmed to promote and to overall degrade the quality of the conversations on the platform. Please don't help them with this. 
There are some users that are currently active on the site that I am 99% sure are spam bots,  but I didn't ban them because they haven't' broken the site rules (most spam bots don't and are very familiar with the site rules because their goal is to build up their posts and their reputation). 

hi this is the main problem because that 300 scholars changed everything in favor of Emperor  becuase he was not a real christian ,he just used religion to control christian people that were increasing rapidly so they rewrite Gospe/bible/Injeel for him not christians as a manifest to control people by keeping them in ignorance ,it's a famous qoute among Shias that 'tyrany not remains with cruelity but remains by ignorance' also it is highly advised that scholars be remain independant from any ruler because corruption enters in their hurts, thus that scholars instead of cleaning up the religion , polluted it by wrong interruptions & distorting Gospe/bible/Injeel & ignoring what was against emperor as beliving to final savior & pospone everything to otherworld after death as when christians refer to Jesus to savior say that this world will  destroy and they receive their reward on heaven so they have no savior in this world & they accept any tyrant ruler before reneisance emperors & rulers were blessed ones with support of Pope & people couldn't stand against them & after that people rejected religion because it doesn't has savior in this world ,this is very similar to Sunnis in muslim world that rulers support heavily by scholars & schoras are dependant to rulers so they keep people in chains to not revolt against tyrant rulers about current situation of Iran Imam Khomeini(ra) didn't want to mix scholars so much with rulling but situation & incident causes that scholars involve more than hewanted in politics that causes some corruption between them but still beacuse of anti tyrani teachings of Shia Islam there is still hope & gov & regime continues its way toward justice it maybe slow but non stop.

Hi ZethaPonderer,
You write a lot. 
There are a lot of scholars believe that the disciples took notes during their time with Jesus. These notes were handed on until someone compiled them. The best way to not take credit for someone elses' work is to remain anonymous, thus "the gospel according to...(the man who originally took the notes)"  
Christian was a term used in the New Testament, like 3 times, twice in the Acts of the Apostles, and once in a letter to Peter. Yes, they were scattered, but not all martyred. Christianity was under oppression until Emperor Constantine came along. He became a Christian, and decided to clean up the religion and compile one bible. The main argument at the time was whether Jesus was God or not. Even then, he'd have to get 300 scholars to agree on an alteration, yet no verse has Jesus saying "I am God" .
Basically same thing happened then as did with Islam. If you can't change the text, you give it new meaning.
I won't be bringing up those questions you assume would be my next. I could ask some you can't answer. I'm probably not as ignorant about Islam as you might think.
Anyway. The Bible is not the injeel, the Gospels are not the injeel. The closest you would find would be the quotes of Jesus in the NT. Try Matthew 5-7, see what you agree with.