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In the Name of God بسم الله


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Posts posted by Rezz

  1. I love seeing countries for myself. I was in Iran for almost a month late last year and learned so much more about that country and its problems by being there and talking to real Iranians than I ever could by reading newspapers and listening to the radio.

    On Sunday I'm off to Israel for a week for the first time.

    I'll be spending most of the time chilling in Eilat, but I'm going to do a 2 day sight-seeing trip to Jerusalem.

    As few Muslims ever get to go to Israel, and fewer have ever met or spoken to a real, live Israeli, I was wondering if there were any sensible questions anyone would put to one if they had the chance to.

    I'll ask any sensible questions and report back, either when I return to England or even from Israel. (Unless logging onto ShiaChat sets off sirens in my hotel and gets me arrested as a Hesbollah sympathiser.)

  2. The people can be divided into two broad categories, peaceful and violent. The peace can never be maintained in any society utill violence is suppressed completely . In order to suppress violence and undo insecurity the use of weapon (in extreme cases of course) is allowed in all societies and countries irrespective of their religion or race. That is why armed police is used to quell internal violence and armed forces (Army, Navy and Air Force) are used to deter external threats in all countries.

    The display of a gun by Sayyid Ali Khamanai or any prayer leader during “Juma” prayer is meant to send strong message to external and internal enemies of peace to think twice before carrying out any terrorist activity against the Islamic republic. This is clearly in line with Islam which declares open war against those who cause “fasaad” (terrorism) on earth. There many verses in Quran regarding this subject. Also, only defensive war is allowed and aggression against any country or people is strictly forbidden in Islam.

    Thus, there is not a shred of doubt that Islam is a religion of peace. If holding guns means terrorism then every country which has police and armed forces is a terrorist country. It in fact means the whole World is terrorist, which is certainly ridiculous.

    Don't you just love 'Muslim-logic"?


  3. Fine then.

    I believe that suicide bombing is wrong, period. Ugh. Your continuous rhetoric annoys me. Sorry, but it's true. No offense.


    P.S. You should have a dinner date with that Robert Spencer guy. It would be like Paradise for the two of you.

    Sorry I've annoyed you. I know you don't have to even answer any of my questions and I'm genuinely grateful that you have.

    The definition of "innocent" has often been tailored by people of all faiths to justify killing civilians. This was the reason for me being so pedantic.

    Path2Felicity, you have to understand that I live in Europe where even Imams are regularly caught out, twisting their words to appear to be peace and democracy loving citizens to the general public before being secretly taped saying what they really mean.

    I’m here to learn something. Thanks for enlightening me.

  4. If suicide bombing is the only means to defending your family, people, and nation, many respected scholars have allowed it as long as civilians are not targets of the attack and only aggressors (military) are, and I agree. I would gladly give my life for my family and I would pick the most effective weapon in doing so. My aim would be to target military aggressors.

    Please don't say a suicide bomb can kill even civilians since you cannot control it because that is the case with any bomb whether it is a suicide bomb or dropped from an airplane.

    And NO, I do not support what many of the Palestinian suicide bombers have done because they have targeted innocent lives and NO I do not support the suicide bombers in Pakistan or in Iraq because only civilians are being killed.

    Hasan Sajjad


    Thank you for responding. I'm trying to learn. You've helped me understand something.

  5. Why are you so interested in my beliefs, Rezz? What difference does it make to you what I, Path2Felicity, thinks? I grow more and more weary of you with every post I read. Why do you feel that I need to justify myself to you?

    I said - I am against the killing of ANY INNOCENT CIVILIAN. Stop trying to twist around my words and make me beg for your approval.


    I think you're being unfair Path2Felicity. I'm not trying to twist anyone’s words. But I find it strange that so few Muslims are willing to come out and say "I believe that suicide bombing is wrong, period".

    I think that the vast majority of people of other faiths would be unequivocal about it But not it would seem Muslims. Is that not a noteworthy difference in values worth discussing?

  6. If you asked a true mainstream Muslim (like the ones I showed you in another thread, the ones that don't get any media coverage) to describe a martyr, they would tell you that it is dying, dying defending your mother, child, wife, daughter, from aggressors. They would tell you it is the ultimate sacrifice in the name of the Lord, something they strive to become one day. They would acknowledge one who purposely takes an innocent life is wrong and would quote the Holy Book, Chapter 5 Verse 32:

    For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men;

    Yes you are right, Hezbollah was attacking from Beirut airport, and from the bridges and interstates. The leaflets were dropped down telling the civilians to flee...minutes later the attacks began. So lets say Israel gave the civilians an HOUR to flee, HOW CAN THEY? Israel blew up all the roads! Is this getting through your thick skull?

    I really think...you need match.com

    Hasan Sajjad


    So does that mean that you disagree that suicide bombing is a route into your "martyrdom"?

    I'm not sure we're disagreeing.

    And you don't need to beat me over the head with Israel's actions. I’m no apologist for them. I think they behaved appallingly, as did Hezbollah by using the civilian population as cover in the first place.

  7. Forget Tamil Tigers. I'm talking about Palestinian and Lebanese Christians.

    Anytime where there is desperation, these acts take place, regardless of religion.

    And why are you so adamant about finding out my position on suicide bombers? I am against the killing of all innocent civilians, which is NOT just limited to suicide bombers.


    P.S. Just because you disagree with how a certain group of people use the term "martyr" it doesn't mean that the whole concept in the religion is ridiculous. If this is what you think, then you should look to the King of Shaheeds, Imam Husayn (as).

    Your answer is ambiguous because the term “innocent” is subjective.

    At university I was actually a member of a pro-Palestinian group called ‘The Friends of Palestine”.

    I left in disgust and ceased to sympathise with the Palestinian cause when I learned most of the Palestinian members of that organisation believed that no Israeli citizen is 'innocent' and therefore all can be legitimately killed because Israel has national service. I’ve seen similar arguments used in Shia Chat.

    So forgive me if I’m still unclear about whether or not, as a Muslim, you think that suicide bombing is a route to martyrdom.

    Any chance of a straight answer?

  8. Before Christianity became the official religion under Constantine, Martyrdom was the highest level a Christian can achieve. Many of the early Saints are saints because they were martyrs. Once it became the official religion, then things changed. Hence, when one is oppressed martyrdom is necessary and honorable.

    Rezz, are you saying Israel did not target civilians and civilian infrastructure this past summer? How come you have not condemned them yet, when your beloved Amnesty even has.

    Hasan Sajjad


    If you asked a Christian to describe Martyrdom, they would tell you that it is dying, peacefully and without resistance, for ones beliefs. Only in Islam it is taken to mean dying whilst killing others.

    And yes, Israel did target civilian buildings, for reasons you are fully aware of. Hezbollah hide in the civilian population. They fire rockets from the top of civilian buildings. The Israelis took steps to warn the civilians to evacuate the areas before bombing civilian buildings. I often feel uncomfortable about the behaviour of Israel, but I accept that even they take precautions to avoid TARGETING civilians. Because I suspect that even the Israelis would say that it’s such an immoral and indefensible thing to do.

    I really think that morally, you're onto a loser here Hasan_Sajjad.

  9. Your whole post is just a bunch of rhetoric. Martyrdom has always been an honorable thing.

    And Muslims are not the only suicide bombers. So there goes that whole theory.

    And I never said anything about suicide bombing. I'm talking about the CONCEPT of martyrdom.


    Are we disagreeing?

    Didn’t I accept that the concept of martyrdom could be seen as honourable to the martyr's side? However, I started my post by stating that martyrdom means different things to different people.

    My problem is with suicide bombers and the fact that I often hear the term “martyr” used by Muslims to describe those people. Similarly, I’ve heard suicide bombings described as “martyrdom operations”, by Muslims, as I’m sure you have.

    And yes, every now and then, a Tamil Tiger blows themselves up. But let’s leave out the diversionary arguments; it’s a fact that Muslims have a virtual monopoly on the suicide bombing market with, according to some Islamic scholars, divine approval.

    What’s your position on suicide bombers Path2Felicity?

  10. I think its just the opposite. They love freedom and democracy, but are loth to admit it. Lest they be labeled as sellouts.

    IIRC, the UndercoverBrother "came out" and said he was living in the UK(?), a few threads back.

    Of course they love living in the West. They just hate the West.

    When I was in primary school, there was this dirty kid from a dysfunctional family in my class. My Mom invited him to our house because she felt sorry for him. I tried to be kind to him, but all he did was mess up my room, steal stuff, beat me up and break my toys.

    Deep down, I think that there's some of that dirty kid from the dysfunctional family in many of the Muslims living in Europe.

    They like our 'house', but they want to destroy it. They want to make it the same as 'back home'. Then they won't feel inferior.

    It's sad, but you can’t get away from the Muslim condition, characterized by self-pity, victim hood, jealousy, resentment, anger and ultimately, aggression and violence.

    It’s hopeless.

  11. Actually the point i was trying to make is that Islam is not a fake man made religion with idiotic and flawed ideas like Human rights or Democracy. It has a political and militant aspect which is a huge part of life especially in this day and age where the kufaar are opressing muslims so what would the muslims do in this situation when they are being attacked and slaughtered ? are they meant to meditate and starve themselves. Military and politics are a large part of life and Islam is the Complete way of life so its obvious that Islam would be incomplete without these aspects.

    When you invaded our lands you dirty pig and raped our resources did we tell you to kick you militant asses out of our soceity, well your opressive rule on the world is coming to an end the sooner you relaise the better.

    Cool it. And what's with the personal insults? I'm on your side. I think Muslim societies should be left alone. "Yanks and Brits out of Iraq", that's what I say. Let Sunni and Shia kill each other. It's a bit like a 'self-cleaning' oven. Who knows, after a few centuries of being left alone in backwardness and violence, Muslims might finally progress enough spiritually and culturally to join the civilized world.

    What I don't like is Muslims coming to the West and lying that they like democracy and freedom, whereas lots of them, deep down, are filled with envy and violent hatred just like you 'UndercoverBrother'.


    I really hope that you're not going to show yourself up as a complete hypocrite by admitting that you actually choose to live in the West...

  12. ... and what's wrong with believing that dying a martyr is honorable?


    A martyr means different things to different people Path2Felicity?

    Let’s not bother with the ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ side arguments. Obviously, in most wars, most fighters believe they are fighting for the ‘right’ side.

    Let us consider only “honour”.

    I can imagine that a fighter who dies fighting armed combatants could be technically described as “honourable” or a ‘martyr’ by his ‘side’.

    But what about the guy who sneaks into a bakery or a café and blows himself up, deliberately TARGETING and killing unarmed non-combatants? Men, women and children?

    Is that "honourable" Path2Felicity?

    And before we get the usual comments about the Americans killing women and children in Iraq, let us get it clear that no one, not even the Americans sink so low as to try to describe that act as “honourable”. And they never deliberately TARGET non-combatants. (If some soldier is found out to be targeting non-combatants, he is not “honoured”, he is thrown into jail.)

    Such is the ‘dishonour’, even shame in killing non-combatants that the Americans have coined a euphamism for it; “collateral damage”. Not that it makes it less unacceptable.

    But I really can’t think of a single ethnic or religious group which rejoices at the killing of non-combatants and “honours” the killer. Except for one.

    It seems that the only ‘side’ that finds such an act as being “honourable” is the Muslim side.

    What does that say about Islam?

  13. No its not a religion of Peace, if you want a religion of Peace go to the buddhists who starve them selves to death and deny thier basic instincts as human beings. Islam is the true religion of GOD which can be proven to be correct in a decisive manner, no one said it was peacefull and no one is promoting universal brotherhood but if you look back at your own history and review colonialism e.t.c you will find that you are not peacefull either so the only difference between us is that we admit we have jihad and a militant side to Islam wheras the kufaar are crafty and do the dirty work with letting the people knoe the truth.

    If you want to debate the Saheeh of ISlam then go to the interfaith Forum and debate thier not here.

    I admire your honesty dude! ;)

    Now how about you convince your millions of bretheren living in Europe and America to be as honest as you've just been. Maybe it will be the motivation we need to begin kicking their militant asses out of our societies.

  14. Well - I have dialogue all the time, and I don't consider it much of a sacrifice. Positive actions might be a good thing under certain circumstances, but alas when dealing with moral monsters (Zionists, neo-cons and the like) it seems to me that they only understand force, and sometimes force must be applied.

    Unfortunately, force is not always easy for the oppressed to apply, and sacrifice of their lives becomes necessary.

    Like many rabid Jew-haters, Greg would rather get into bed with the Devil than criticise other Jew-haters. You’ll find him supporting Holocaust deniers and Jewish conspiracy theorists just as comfortably as he defends suicide bombers.

    Greg, put your hatred to one side for a moment and think rationally.

    It takes courage to take responsibility for, and face up to one's actions. To endure pain, incarceration, fear and hardship for one’s beliefs takes strength and integrity.

    Blowing one’s self up requires none of the above. It really is the ultimate cowardly act.

    It is reported that many suicide bombers are seen grinning before they blow themselves up. Afterwards, their families rejoice and have parties to celebrate. Hardly the behaviour of people who are making the "ultimate sacrifice" Greg.

    And what about those who TARGET civilians in cafes and bakeries Greg? Are they also worthy of your admiration? Just as long as its Jews they're killing, eh?

    Let's face it, everyone here knows that Muslims believe that dying as a Shaheed ('martyr') is a ticket straight to paradise. Some Sunni’s even believe they’ll get 72 nymphs or virgins in paradise as their reward (the disgusting animals!)

    So the grinning, exploding morons actually believe that it's “Allah-o-Akhbar!!” a flash of light, then they're off to heaven for the shag of their lives. You couldn't make it up!

    And their sorry, ignorant, relatives feel happy for them. It’s so pathetic. So evil. So Godless.

    Real hero’s are selfless.

    Suicide bombers are evil, selfish, cowards and any religion which supports them proves itself to be utterly, morally bankrupt.

  15. (salam)


    The colonizers give blankets as a nice gift to the the Natives. Guess what they were infected with? Small-pox! Once the Europeans found out that they could defeat the Natives by using disease, they used to it their full advantage by purposely spreading their diseases among the Natives as a way to defeat them. This is in history books, so you can't claim disease was fully spread accidentally. However, most of it was accidental.

    This is sadly true.

    And shamefully, it wasn't any Europeans, it was the British who were the first to use 'germ warfare'.

    The only positive thing about this is that the British don't deny it and actually teach it in schools.

    Owning up to shameful episodes of one's history is a very European trait. I think it is something to do with confidence and striving to be better. It is part of growing and becoming more civilised.

    I find it facinating that much of the third world, Muslims included, prefer to believe 'alternative' histories where they were always the victim and never the perpetrator.

  16. Your officially the biggest liar in Shiachat, congrats! you can fool many people, but not those of us that has been in Iran ;) You don't know jack about roads, cars nor buildings, coming here pretending to be a engineer. Either that or your pretending to be very smart and clever, however you have shown the type of class and character you have in Shiachat, so i suggest you change your nick, come back and try again.

    ALL countries have infrastructure errors, don't over do it. Reading the news bridges collapse, buildings fall apart every where in the world. Why don't you just admit that your job on Shiachat is to talk trash and make ISLAM and Islamic people look bad, instead of being constructive and talk the truth? If you and your Zionist masters stop messing up Islamic countries with boycotts and bombs, they might get somewhere a little faster than they already have.

    Oh dear. Only when someone is bankrupt of rational debate do they turn to accusing others of being liars. The same people who accuse completely rational media and press reports of being "lies" preferring to believe irrational fairy stories and conspiracy theories. It is, sadly, too often the Muslim way.

    Lying is so against my culture and values 'repenter'. I don't do it, and if I did, then hell, don’t you think that I would make myself more interesting. And I'm not an engineer. I never said I was, not that it matters. My job means I travel a lot and sometimes I work with civil engineers. Sometimes I work in manufacturing. Sometimes I work in intensive farming. But I can certainly recognise a cracked road, a poorly built apartment block or an underpass built at Karaj without drainage so it turns to a deep pond every time it rains.

    But if you are the type of person to shout "liar" when the chips are down, then you're really not even worth bothering with.

  17. I as an iranian completely disagree with Rezz and his views.

    simple minded generalization, there are good and bad places in iran.

    For instance Kish is not the same as Tehran nor are the two the same as Shomal, when it comes to infrastructure, investment and even the peoples mentality.

    so no, iran is not a "hellhole" as you call it, it is actually a gorgeous country with great achievements, mostly not being pre-islamic since you also seem to stress but post islamic.

    Most people also didnt vote for ahmadinejad because rafsanjani was a "crook" but because they believed ahmadinejad is going to bring economic improvements and most people that voted for him are conservative people who also share his views wich are similar to Khomeinis ®

    I've never had any reason to go to Kish, but I did go to Shomal (Caspian Sea) for the post-Ramadan holiday (can't recall the name of the festival). It was the most frightening journey of my life, but let's not get into Iranian driving.

    The area is indeed very beautiful on the surface, as is much of Iran. But everywhere you went, every pavement, every beach, every mountain path, every small river was piled high with rubbish and filth. I've done "third world" before in India, Sri Lanka, Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa. Iran beats them all for filth and broken roads, not to mention the toilets! :sick:

    My point is not to knock Iran, or the Iranian people (whom I have a lot of affection for), but to try to understand what makes a society behave in the way it does.

    Yes, poverty and education have an effect, but I have been to far poorer and less educated places where lying, cheating, corruption and throwing rubbish everywhere do no reach the levels I experienced in Iran.

    The issue here is culture and values. It’s a long discussion (perhaps worthy of another thread), but I sincerely believe that Islamic culture and values has forged the attitudes and behaviours of Iranians, just as centuries of Judeo-Christian values have forged the attitude and behaviours of Europeans and Americans. And I believe that history has shown, which set of culture and values is a more successful and desirable basis for a civil society.

    After all, how many ex-pat Iranians are going back to Iran? And how many people from Muslim countries, rich and poor, are beating down the doors to the West, trying to get in?

    Do you ever ask yourself, honestly, what the US would have looked like if the Pilgrim Fathers had been Muslims? If the Constitution and Bill of Rights had been drafted by Ayatollahs?


  18. The amount of Iranians you can speak to is limited though.

    The only way I know how to perceive the world is through reliable media, respectable books and personal interaction.

    Believe it or not DjibrilCisse, I am far more open-minded than you would think. I've been to Iran. I know what I saw. I know what I heard. No, I did not speak to every person in that country, but the experience and views of people I spoke to absolutely supported what I had read and heard in the media.

    Now the debate shouldn’t be about the undeniable fact that Iran is a corrupt and dysfunctional hell-hole. That is a simple fact.

    The debate should be whether it is the way it is because it follows Islamic ideology (my view) or because it isn’t Islamic enough (I suspect, your view).

  19. This is all well and good, but will those plans materialize if Ahmadinejad does not control his rhetoric?

    Am I the only person here who ever visits and does work in Iran?

    I was there for nearly a month last autumn.

    It is a thoroughly backward, third-world country, with a level of official incompetence and corruption to embarrass sub-Saharan Africa. I saw buildings being built that would be torn down as illegal by the most wretched African country. I saw roads built without drainage so they became rivers during heavy rain. A Dutch engineer and I spent hours laughing at the pitiful build quality of roads, buildings and even cars assembled in Iran. It has to bee seen to be believed.

    It makes a man want to weep when you see their ancient (pre-Islamic) structures and read about the elegant and advanced civilisation they used to have.

    The Iranian people I talked to (and I talked to loads) couldn't stand Ahamdinejad, but only voted for him because they believed Rafsanjani was a crook.

    But hey, keep reading the Government propaganda sites. Post them here because that makes them seem more true.

    Then its all good, isn’t it?.

  20. Hey sixdays, chill. Arabs (and more recently Iranians) have been threatening to destroy Israel for decades. Try to understand their bravado. It must be pretty humiliating for them to constantly get their asses kicked by the same Jews they're brought up to consider as inferior, scheming, scum. Third-rate weaponry and a regular trickle 'shaheed' cowards exploding in bakeries and cafes is really nothing to get worked up about.


    Are you actually in Israel? I'm visiting for my first time in March.

    Is it safe to visit Jerusalem? How long is the trip from Eilat?

  21. LAHORE: A prize-winning Iranian nuclear scientist has probably been assassinated by Israeli intelligence agency Mossad, reports the Sunday Times, citing an intelligence source.

    Link to story

    I wonder what on earth possessed the Israelis to do such a paranoid and illegitimate thing!

    Fancy, killing a nuclear scientist, from a rabidly hostile country which funds and arms terrorist groups against you, which calls for you to be wiped off the face of the earth, while at the same time as trying to develop a nuclear capability.

    Those darned Israelis. Just wait until Iran gets REALLY cross and gets its revenge, with all its high tech weaponry and stuff.

    Grrrrr! :mad:

    (Sarcastic enough?)


  22. This thread is a good example of why people get the distorted idea that Islam is all about violence. It seems that Muslims speak more and more irresponsibly, not realising that people look to them as representatives of the faith they claim to follow.

    The ideal reply to such a teacher would be that while most suicide bombers at our time are Muslims, they are not representing Islam correctly and are going against the teachings.

    But it seems that some wiseguys can do no better than call for throwing punches and launching missiles.

    Now I hope you understand why people think we're all violent fools (that's how some of us are behaving), and why it's so easy for the media to find unintelligent Muslims who will say exactly what Islamophobics want them to.

    PS: For non-Muslims, I would humbly request you to look at Islam for what it is rather than the distorted image being given by some. There is a lot of good litterature in the Shiachat Online Books section: http://books.shiachat.com

    You're not going to believe this DjibrilCisse, but for once, I totally agree with you! There might be hope in this world yet.

    There is nothing whatsoever wrong with saying "most suicide bombers are Muslims". The teacher was right to say it, as long as it was not said in a way which (falsely) suggested that most Muslims are (or even support) suicide bombing.

    In fact everyone should be saying what the teacher said, especially Muslims themselves. Only then, can there be the discussion and debate necessary to establish whether suicide bombing is, or is not "Islamic".

    Suppressing truth by manufactured outrage, intimidation, political correctness and feigned victim hood helps no one, particularly Muslims themselves.

    Imagine if Catholics were like Muslims. They would have suppressed any mention, discussion or debate about their 'paedophile problem'. It would still be going on today, unchecked and unchallenged.

    Think about it.

  23. Its a known FACT that many cathlic priests are petafiles, its a known fact since AMERICA launched the war on terror alot more civilians have been killed then terrorists, its a KNOWN fact the Zionist movement is the most raciest, vile, disgusting movement known to man today yet we dont hear teachers bark these FACTS out!

    QUICK QUICK Go hide in your bunker i think a Zelzal 3 missile is coming your way!

    Ah, good old 'Muslim Logic'. I could't have wished for a better example of a Muslim to support my post.

    Rationality (which Muslims seem to lack) is the acceptance of truth, and understanding the difference between of the objective (factual reality) and the subjective (your opinion).

    First, the objective. All Catholics accept the FACT that some of their priests are paedophiles. It is discussed openly so that they may find a way to stop it happening.

    Second, the subjective. You think Zionists are bad. I don’t think they are any better, or worse, than Islamists. Both of us could find arguments to support our veiws.

    You don’t even bother to address the objective; the undeniable FACT that most suicide bombers ARE Muslims!

    But you do finish your post with a violent threat.

    How deliciously ‘Muslim’ of you.


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