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In the Name of God بسم الله


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About Yousuf

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    Not A Shia, Not A Sunni, Only A Muslim

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  1. "Gibrael just came to tell Prophet what verse shall be made known to people according to the timing" But I thought that Qur'an was revealed verse by verse and in parts and stages.
  2. There are dissimilarities in some matters of religion when it comes to Shi'a Sunni argument. However, it is proven from Sahih Sunni Hadiths that Prophet (Peace be upon him) was taught by Gabriel seven ahrufs. Your hadith literature even confirms this. At first, you rejected that seven ahrufs even exist. However, when I showed you from Shi'a hadith literature that seven ahrufs are even present in Shi'a hadith literature, you rejected it too. You wrote: "Secondly, if there had been seven Ahrufs, they would have been prevalent in the time of period of early Sunni Caliphs" My response: Actually, Sahih Hadith literature of Sunni Islam does prove that seven ahrufs were used in early ages of Islam. You wrote: "You know that there was only single Quran prevalent and none doubted its credibility." My response: I agree. You wrote: "There was no any mention of other versions of Quran except this incidence." My response: I never said versions of Qur'an. I just said seven different ahrufs and different readings of he Qur'an. Qur'an is not like the corrupted bible. Bible is corrupted and it has different versions. Each sect of Christianity claims that its version is correct. The King James Only Movement claims that only King James is correct and the other are "Satanic" versions. However, Alhamdullilah, there is nothing like this with the Qur'an. All the sects of Islam agree that there is only one Qur'an. The Qur'an that was compiled by Hazrat Uthman. When I say seven ahrufs, I mean different variant readings of the Qur'an that is proven from Sahih Sunni Hadiths. You wrote: "You keep quoting this brother, firstly, we reject your idea that Gibreal taught Prophet." Our Prophet (Peace be upon him) received revelation from the Almighty, but through Angel Jibreel. This fact is indisputable and it is based on the Quranic teachings. Angel Jibreel brought revelations from Almighty to our Prophet (Peace be upon him) don't you agree? You wrote: "Sanaa Codex is no any relevance to Quran which was sanctioned by vast majority of People, So, you are just wasting your time. Seven Ahrufs only mean seven different ways of Pronunciation." My response: When did I say that Sana'a codex has any relevance? Have you ever heard any Sunni ever reciting from the Sana'a codex? But it has some relevance to the Sahih hadiths that speak about seven ahrufs and recitation of the Qur'an in different readings. The Quranic recitation and the use of variants is proven from Sahih Hadith and this Codex proves that Sunni point of view is much closer to the truth. Brother, why don't you understand that seven ahrufs are not just limited to dialects or pronunciations because there were more than seven dialects and pronunciations at the time of early Islam. This fact is indisputable. I can't believe how can you reject this when the fact of the matter is that this is actually a fact.
  3. I would like to make corrections here. Seven Ahrufs DOES include difference in dialect and pronunciations. However, seven ahrufs is much broader than that.
  4. Well, I don't know about this. But when we say "seven ahrufs", we mean whatever is mentioned by the letmeturnthetables list. However, seven ahrufs mean several different readings, variants, pronunciations, dialectal languages in which Quran was revealed. As the Salafi website Islamqa notes about seven ahrufs: The Qur’aan was revealed in one style at the beginning, but the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kept asking Jibreel until he taught him seven styles, all of which were complete. The evidence for that is the hadeeth of Ibn ‘Abbaas who narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Jibreel taught me one style and I reviewed it until he taught me more, and I kept asking him for more and he gave me more until finally there were seven styles.” (narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3047; Muslim, 819) Secondly, what is meant by styles (ahruf, sing. harf)? The best of the scholarly opinions concerning what is meant is that there are seven ways of reciting the Qur’aan, where the wording may differ but the meaning is the same; if there is a different meaning then it is by way of variations on a theme, not opposing and contradiction.
  5. You wrote: "This is improper question because humans go and settle at different places so languages adopt different pronunciations." My response: Actually, my question is valid because when Islam was spreading, people already had more than seven pronunciations and dialects in various tribes of Arabia. So clearly seven ahrufs is much broader than seven dialects or pronunciations. The Hadiths does NOT say seven dialects or pronunciation. It says seven ahrufs very clearly. So my argument still stands because seven ahrufs cannot mean seven pronunciations or dialects because Arabian people already had more than seven dialects and pronunciations. You wrote: "You yesterday yourself read, where Khomenin said that one can recite with the seven recitals but it should be such that it may not vary from the Quran. If there had been eight Ahrufs why would Ayotullah conceal that?" My response: I never said eight ahrufs. However, I am not a follower of Khomeini. Since Khomeini probably don't believe in Bukhari, he rejected the correct Sunni viewpoint that is proven from Sana Codex and Sahih hadiths. Either way, Khomeini and Shias are still wrong because it is proven from Sahih Hadiths and ancient codex of the Quran that indeed Quran had seven ahrufs and the hadith of Bihar Al-Anwar also clearly says seven ahrufs. It does not say seven dialects or pronunciations. Ahrufs is the plural of "harf". This also includes variations in the recitation of the Quran and we know this was very well used in the early Quranic recitation. You wrote: "Sanna Codex proves nothing when we have Quran with us, there are many things found in the old ruins whose trustworthiness cannot be guaranteed unless it is traced to an individual which is credible one. I think you must see that Quran which is among us is traced backed to the credibility test of various individuals who were credible and Sanaa Codex lacks affirmation of our predecessors. If there be a copy of Quran that is brought by a person excel to all the past people including individuals, one can say that other copies of Quran exist as well. But you see sanaa codex has no traces that who right it and when he or she wrote and what was his or her belief." My response: Actually, I do agree with you but partially. We agree that Sana'a Codex is not a reliable guide to Quranic teachings. Only the Uthmanic text is the one we trust. Sana'a Codex was written by individuals who possessed lack of Arabic knowledge because they made several mistakes. However, the type of variants present in Sana'a Codex were already mentioned by Bukhari in his hadith collection. So while Sana'a codex is NOT reliable, it does agree with the variant teachings about which Bukhari mentioned already before the discovery of Sana'a Codex in 1970s. Since these variants do agree with the Sahih hadith mentioned in Bukhari, we can conclude that the hadith of Bukhari about seven ahrufs are Sahih. So shias are clearly wrong when they reject the Sahih hadiths of seven ahrufs. You wrote: "If sunnis believe that we have a common ground what is discussion for." My response: Sunni and Shi'ah have a lot in common, but still there are some differences. The Shi'ah viewpoint of seven ahrufs is somewhat different from Sunni's. But evidence suggests that the Sunni viewpoint is correct in this matter. I already explained in my response above. I hope you would understand it.
  6. Irfan, You have not provided satisfactory answers to these questions:- 1) If seven ahrufs means seven pronunciations and dialects only, then why were there more than seven dialects and pronunciations in Arabic language? 2) Where did Khomeini said it was only limited to pronunciations? Even if Khomeini said that, then with due respect, I don't think he is correct because we clearly know that there were more than seven pronunciations and dialects in Arabic language. 3) You haven't answered my question about Sana'a codex that proves that seven ahrufs is more than just dialects and pronunciations. 4) Sunnis also say that seven ahrufs include difference in pronunciations and dialects, but our understanding of seven ahrufs is much more broader than yours and we have manuscript evidence to prove our point and disprove the shia viewpoint.
  7. Irfan, You are limiting the seven ahrufs to Seven pronounciation and dialect only. However, history proves that Arabic pronounciations and dialects were not limited to seven dialects or pronounciation. There were more than that. Moreover, Sana codex proves bukhari is right.
  8. Irfan, You are limiting the seven ahrufs to Seven pronounciation and dialect only. However, history proves that Arabic pronounciations and dialects were not limited to seven dialects or pronounciation. There were more than that. Moreover, Sana codex proves bukhari is right.
  9. I didn't said that. These recitations were allowed to facilitate the reader. The change in meaning was based on theme, not opposing or contradicting each other. Shi'as have no answer to this question because Sana'a codex proves that Shi'as ate wrong. In fact, shia hafith literature itself proves that Quran was revealed in seven ahrufs but shias reject their own hadiths.
  10. Yes, but these "missing words" are also under the category of seven ahrufs, as it was a recitation style.
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