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In the Name of God بسم الله


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    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Zigzag in Saqifa, Shura And Imam Ali As   
    You can approach from that direction too, it's basically the same it just takes longer because of the room for speculation.
    The incidents you mentioned are in no way comparable in my opinion to the seriousness of what happened according to you. To use again another example, if my dad drives me and my brother to a place and I say something like "are you sure we are driving in the right direction?" or even something offensive like "are you sure you know how to drive?" or even something outright insulting, it is in no way the same as my brother grabbing the steering wheel and saying " move along, it's my turn to drive now." More importantly, it is the insistence that is the biggest problem. If you question and you are answered or if you abandoned a battle and then repented that is not as problematic as taking over the affairs up until you die. Because you were never corrected. I am saying that you have no option than to stop this.
    So I ask again: What did Ali exactly do? Because I don't want to put words in your mouth and later on you deny that you believed such a thing.
    So murdering other muslims for not paying zakat also doesn't deserve capital offense?
    Caliphate is a duty, not a right. Whoever can perform that duty deserves it. That doesn't restrict it to one person. Regardless of summing up what Abu Bakr did or was like Abu Bakr was the closest companion of the prophet, left all his wealth etc., he doesn't have to be better than Ali in principle. He solved the problem that arose in Saqifa, he was qualified, people accepted him.
    As for the abandoning part, that is not considered reliable.
  2. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Zigzag in Saqifa, Shura And Imam Ali As   
    Disagree, he wasn't the only one to protect him. By the way, what do you mean by "Allah chose .."? "Allah chose" Abu Bakr to accompany the Prophet, Allah chose Umar to marry his daughter to the Prophet, etc. etc. Allah is powerful over everything, but if your statement carries some kind of connotation, I might disagree with that part too.
    Might disagree, especially with the word choice.
    This is what you asked before and I find too speculative. Besides it would not say much. During the battle of Badr there were around 300 men fighting. If there was one of them(any of them) missing, Islam might not have survived. It would not be unique. Again, too speculative.
    I couldn't agree with you on Ali yet so no point in answering this question yet. But I especially disagree with your intended statement about all sahaba combined. You mean at the battle of Badr for example, if all but Ali were hypocrites and abandoned the battle, it would not matter?
    The sahaba as a whole are mentioned in the Quran about their rewards, Ali specifically as an individual not for example
  3. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Zigzag in Saqifa, Shura And Imam Ali As   
    I guess you miss the purpose of my example. The example is meant to view the situation between Abu Bakr and Ali, as you present it, from a different angle. Read my original question again after I gave you the example:
    I asked this because I was under the impression that you said that Ali kept quiet or agreed to disagree. I didn't ask "What do you think the Prophet should do?" to give you room to speculate.
    You see, my example is meant to be as close as possible to a one-to-one correspondence with actual history. Basically when I ask you something about the Prophet in the example, I in fact ask you about Ali. It's my hope that you will be unwilling to admit things that do not fit the Prophet and in my opinion at least also Ali if it was in fact a divine command. If you agree with me, we have to ask ourselves about the divine command part. So can you repeat again "what did Ali exactly do?
    If you say Ali agreed to disagree, I ask, can you imagine the Prophet agreed to disagree with Musailamah in my example?
    If you say Ali protested and then distanced himself and kept quiet, I ask, can you imagine the Prophet protesting against, then distancing himself from and then keeping quiet about Musailamah in my example?
    And so on and so forth
  4. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Zigzag in Taqaiyya...what It Is   
    Firstly define what taqiyya is as there is a difference between not telling what is true and telling what is not true, so the Prophet and Ammar are not comparable at all. As for telling what is not true, do you think that the situation of Ali during Abu Bakr and Umar's time was even remotely the same as that of Ammar? Keep in mind that Ammar took a severe beating, his parents were killed for refusing to comply just like him and he eventually complied after continuous torture ( Was Ali ever touched in Abu Bakr and Umar's times?)
    Not to mention the fact that Ammar was not someone who led people at the time. If it's allowed for common people, that doesn't  prove it for people who lead and guide. Can you imagine the Prophet doing the same as Ammar?
  5. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from muslim720 in The Clear Refutation Of Fadak   
    I have a question about this statement. (Btw, nobody has commented on my previous post #236)
    If it is claimed that Abbas wanted his share of inheritance (especially if it was demanded a second time, now from Umar), doesnt that mean that at least Abbas believed that it wasn't gifted? Because he could inherit as an uncle, not as a granduncle. Some schools of jurisprudence include grandmothers and grandfathers, but I dont think anyone includes granduncles as having a right to inheritance, at least not if there are others entitled to it like a husband or children.
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