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In the Name of God بسم الله

GreatChineseFall

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  1. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Panzerwaffe in Mukhtar al-Thaqafi   
    Not the conflict is that problematic, more ibn Al-Hanafiyyah's understanding of Imamah.
    Your understanding has to be substantiated by something. The quoted narration doesn't seem to say what you are saying.
  2. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Panzerwaffe in Mukhtar al-Thaqafi   
    Come to think of it, there is another thing that seems not right regardless of a particular narration. The concept of imamah and being divinely appointed seems to be contradicted by Muhammad ibn al-Hanafiyyah. I can understand how someone doesn't know who the next Imam is. I can understand how someone mistakenly can think to be best suitable to lead the Ummah. I don't really understand how someone mistakenly can believe to be divinely appointed. If you are divinely appointed you know. If you are not, you know too
  3. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Student_of_Deen in the scope of Prophets and Imams infallibility according to Shi`i Manhaj   
    Except that he doesn't asked to be saved, he asks to be for forgiven.
    So this verse is metaphorical?
    Rather the ones seeking a pleasing interpretation in my opinion are the ones that try to defend a concept no matter what and the ones when you simply change names would give you a totally different interpretation.
  4. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Student_of_Deen in the scope of Prophets and Imams infallibility according to Shi`i Manhaj   
    I don't see why most people seem to be focusing on Imams here, it really is more about Prophets. We have examples of them in a source that is undeniably true and acceptable as proof for all.
    A couple of definitions are given but the question is not only what is the definition, but also how do you reconcile with certain verses? You can bring forth tens of verses and hundreds of narrations, but it only means something if it is logically coherent. Meaning it must not contradict everything else you believe to be true. That is the big question here, are the verses and your definition only apparently contradicting each other and it is perfectly reconcilable or is there an actual contradiction?
    For example if a definition is given and the definition refers to Prophet Musa as well, how is it reconciled with the verses:
    Sahih International And he entered the city at a time of inattention by its people and found therein two men fighting: one from his faction and one from among his enemy. And the one from his faction called for help to him against the one from his enemy, so Moses struck him and [unintentionally] killed him. [Moses] said, "This is from the work of Satan. Indeed, he is a manifest, misleading enemy."
      Sahih International He said, "My Lord, indeed I have wronged myself, so forgive me," and He forgave him. Indeed, He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.
      Sahih International He said, "My Lord, for the favor You bestowed upon me, I will never be an assistant to the criminals." Is it just apparently contradicting or actually contradicting?
  5. Like
    GreatChineseFall reacted to Student_of_Deen in the scope of Prophets and Imams infallibility according to Shi`i Manhaj   
    BaarakAllahu feek for explaining the question, much appreciated. i also want to give credit for this thread because it was your question which made me start it.
  6. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Student_of_Deen in the scope of Prophets and Imams infallibility according to Shi`i Manhaj   
    That is more like a quick question. You can't proof something by pointing to the impracticality of something else. In addition you can't proof something without addressing the apparent contradictions with the Qur'an in your claim as they might be actual contradictions.
     For example if it is said:
    How do you deal with the verse:
    Sahih International O Prophet, why do you prohibit [yourself from] what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. How do you deal with the verse:
    Sahih International And he entered the city at a time of inattention by its people and found therein two men fighting: one from his faction and one from among his enemy. And the one from his faction called for help to him against the one from his enemy, so Moses struck him and [unintentionally] killed him. [Moses] said, "This is from the work of Satan. Indeed, he is a manifest, misleading enemy."
      Sahih International He said, "My Lord, indeed I have wronged myself, so forgive me," and He forgave him. Indeed, He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.
      Sahih International He said, "My Lord, for the favor You bestowed upon me, I will never be an assistant to the criminals." How do you deal with the verse:
    Sahih International And We said, "O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat therefrom in [ease and] abundance from wherever you will. But do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers."
    Sahih International But Satan caused them to slip out of it and removed them from that [condition] in which they had been. And We said, "Go down, [all of you], as enemies to one another, and you will have upon the earth a place of settlement and provision for a time."
      Sahih International Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful. And multiple other verses? But to answer your question:
    - By making sure that he makes no mistake when commanding.
    -By correcting every mistake.
    If Allah promises that you will not be lead astray, yes
    So that means that whenever the Messenger gives you something he is not making a mistake or will be corrected by Allah. Whenever the Messenger is forbidding you something, he is not making a mistake or will be corrected.
    The question is not whether someone is infallible in delivering a message. That is agreed upon. The question is whether someone is infallible all the time, in all aspects of human life. For example, someone may have an infallible memory, meaning he will never make a mistake when he says that he remembered somthing. That doesn't mean he is infallible in making judgments.
  7. Like
    GreatChineseFall reacted to Student_of_Deen in the scope of Prophets and Imams infallibility according to Shi`i Manhaj   
    As`salamu Alaykum Dear brothers & Sisters, 
    i had a question in mind and another brother also asked the same question on this forum so i thought i should start a thread to get some clarifications. 
    What is the scope of Infallibility of Prophets and Imams according to Shia beliefs ? are they absolutely above making any mistake whatsoever or can they make unintentional minor mistakes ?
  8. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Student_of_Deen in According to Shia logic, can we worship other than Allah?   
    Interesting. Do you have a source for this definition?
  9. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Student_of_Deen in According to Shia logic, can we worship other than Allah?   
    I am sorry, but isn't that takfeer?
  10. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Student_of_Deen in What were the words used by Adam when repenting to His Lord?   
    I am still a little confused about the concept of infallibility. Wasn't Adam infallible?
  11. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Skanderbeg in According to Shia logic, can we worship other than Allah?   
    I am not saying I completely disagree with this, but it doesn't negate the fact that the first may be making takfir too.
  12. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from sunnilove2hussain in "Abu-Bakr r.a and Umar r.a are the leaders of the elder people of paradise"   
    Several points were made, what has been quoted was in relation to superiority.
    As far as this is concerned, I have said that people don't enter as shabaab. To add to it, kuhool are not old people but people who have reached maturity. Another narration about people in Paradise is:
    حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو هُرَيْرَةَ، مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ فِرَاسٍ الْبَصْرِيُّ حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو دَاوُدَ، حَدَّثَنَا عِمْرَانُ أَبُو الْعَوَّامِ، عَنْ قَتَادَةَ، عَنْ شَهْرِ بْنِ حَوْشَبٍ، عَنْ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ غَنْمٍ، عَنْ مُعَاذِ بْنِ جَبَلٍ، أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ يَدْخُلُ أَهْلُ الْجَنَّةِ الْجَنَّةَ جُرْدًا مُرْدًا مُكَحَّلِينَ أَبْنَاءَ ثَلاَثِينَ أَوْ ثَلاَثٍ وَثَلاَثِينَ سَنَةً ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالَ أَبُو عِيسَى هَذَا حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ غَرِيبٌ وَبَعْضُ أَصْحَابِ قَتَادَةَ رَوَوْا هَذَا عَنْ قَتَادَةَ مُرْسَلاً وَلَمْ يُسْنِدُوهُ ‏.‏   Mu'adh bin Jabal narrated that the Prophet (s.a.w) said: "The people of Paradise shall enter Paradise without body hair, Murd, with Kuhl on their eyes, thirty years of age or thirty-three years." People who are 30 or 33 are called kuhool because they have reached maturity. Just as it is said in the verses:
    Sahih International [And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ].   Sahih International He will speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity and will be of the righteous." Prophet Isa(a.s.) was taken to heaven at the age of 35 or so. Al-Azhari says that a man is called kahl after his period of being called shaab. Ibn Al-Atheer even specifically says that kuhool are people between 30 and 40. So if age is of any issue it is with respect to the narration about shabaab not kuhool. But this has never been raised as an issue
  13. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Zigzag in "Abu-Bakr r.a and Umar r.a are the leaders of the elder people of paradise"   
    Yes and the narration where Ali is said to be better than them actually shows that in my opinion. Either (A) Ali was declared a leader of Paradise as well, then it shows that there can be multiple leaders. Or (B) it was never narrated that Ali will be a leader in Paradise, then it shows that you can be superior to them.
    And just to add:
    حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو نُعَيْمٍ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْعَزِيزِ بْنُ أَبِي سَلَمَةَ، عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ الْمُنْكَدِرِ، أَخْبَرَنَا جَابِرُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ـ رضى الله عنهما ـ قَالَ كَانَ عُمَرُ يَقُولُ أَبُو بَكْرٍ سَيِّدُنَا، وَأَعْتَقَ سَيِّدَنَا‏.‏ يَعْنِي بِلاَلاً‏.‏
    Narrated Jabir bin `Abdullah:
    `Umar used to say, "Abu Bakr is our chief, and he manumitted our chief," meaning Bilal.
    This doesn't necessarily mean Umar considered Bilal to be wuperior to everybody else.
  14. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Zigzag in Ayat 33:33 possible limitations of Inama.   
    Alright, I don't have any answers, because I didn't claim anything related to this. That doesn't take away my right to question someone else's claim.
    You made the claim that it is unrelated, I gave a similar example and was wondering if , applying the same principles , this verse can also be considered to be unrelated. I don't see how that is irrelevant. My previous example was as you pointed out about the interpretation and not descent. Ok, let's say fair enough, point taken, but what is the irrelevance of this example?
    You not only refuse to answer my question, you also don't point out the irrelevance of it, but just claim that it is. That is not very convincing. You not only ignore this, but you continue to ask about Ibn Abbas which was a reaction to what you considered an irrelevant example. If that was digressing, what was mentioning Ibn Abbas then? A digression of a digression?

    Your question on the other hand is not relevant because I didn't make a claim relating to the question, I basically only said that the grammatical objections raised are unjustified. The argument of what the correct conclusion should be regarding the interpretation of the verse is therefore irrelevant. You can still be correct in your interpretation, I can be wrong in my interpretation, that doesn't negate the fact that a conclusion, wrong or right, is made based upon an invalid argument. It's not academic to question the questioner.

    So I'll ask again and I hope you at least point out the irrelevance:
     
    Sahih International For every religion We have appointed rites which they perform. So, [O Muhammad], let the disbelievers not contend with you over the matter but invite them to your Lord. Indeed, you are upon straight guidance. Do you believe the green part to be revealed separately? If yes, do you believe it to be unrelated to the rest of the verse?
    Then this is where we also disagree. I don't think it is proven and it's also not standard practice. Burden of proof is with positive assertion and the fact that it isn't proven is somewhat indicated by your addition "until a contrary report is presented". If something is proven a contrary report is a contradicting report.
    Reciting an abrogated verse before it's abrogation is not a problem and definitely not tahreef.
    (By the way I didn't accuse anyone of tahreef, that was a rhetorical question, again showing how applying your principles can lead to some weird conclusions)
    No specific physical house,  I thought I already mentioned that. It was the house the Prophet could have built if he wanted and let his entire household reside in it. I can't help you if you are having trouble understanding something that is immaterial. If I ask Allah to guide the inhabitants of your great-grand child the house is immaterial. I don't see the problem.
    Again, questioning the questioner is not academic. You made the claim based on grammar that the difference in use of singular/plural shows that multiple houses can't be referred to. If this is a general claim about any Arabic word, then my question about Ahl al-Kitab is relevant, if it was a claim applying specifically about the word house then the question about Bait ul-Maal is relevant.
    So I'll ask again and I hope you at least point out the irrelevance:
     - What does Kitab refer to when the Jews and Christians are called Ahl al-Kitab?
    - What does Bait refer to when people talk about Bait-ul-Maal?
    Your unwillingness to answer any question seems weird especially considering the fact that you complain about me not answering anything.
    I did, by being removed from the presence of disbelief, disobedience and being put in the presence of belief and obedience. As far as what absolutely exactly means, I didn't make any claims about that and I already admitted that I don't know. How is it dodging if I already admit that I don't know? Do I need to know to be allowed to make other claims? Can a level of purity be quantified?
    Am I to be blamed for repeating an answer if the question is repeated? You don't reformulate your question, you don't show what is wrong with my answer, you just claim that it is, you don't show a possible answer for similar situations, what do you expect?
  15. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Sunnibro in Ayat 33:33 possible limitations of Inama.   
    You haven't provided any justification for why you believe that. Why are the others illogical? Grammatically it is the same as another verse:
     
    Sahih International And what prevents their expenditures from being accepted from them but that they have disbelieved in Allah and in His Messenger and that they come not to prayer except while they are lazy and that they do not spend except while they are unwilling.
      Sahih International So let not their wealth or their children impress you. Allah only intends to punish them through them in worldly life and that their souls should depart [at death] while they are disbelievers.  
    This clearly indicates that there is a correlation between what was said before and after innama. Ask yourself how you would interpret it if you replace people of the household by wives of the prophet. It shouldn't make a difference in your interpretation but it does.
      The word "ahl" is masculine so addressing something by that would have to be in a masculine form, it still refers to the wives of the prophet
  16. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Student_of_Deen in Coincidence? 12 number in Quran.   
    The hadith speaks about a position that is wished for by prophets and martyrs. If positions or ranks are not mutually exclusive, then it is not proven that a certain position is superior to the other, just that the "sum" is.
  17. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Student_of_Deen in Coincidence? 12 number in Quran.   
    Your definition is fine. I didn't say the definition is wrong, I said the translation to either admiration or envy is a bit off because both definitions are not identical to the definition you gave. Admiration lacks something while envy has something extra. As I said admiration is if you value something but you don't necessarily desire it for yourself and envy includes a feeling of resent towards the person who posseses it. Personally, I find admiration a little bit better as a translation because something missing can be implied while  something added can't easily be ignored. Besides, translators probably reserve the word envy for hasad which is why they didn't use it here. In any case it wouldn't matter for the point you were trying to make even if you replace it by hasad(it just reflects a bit badly on the prophets and the martyrs)
    No, because ranks don't have to be mutually exclusive but can be additive as I gave in my example. A prophet can envy the position of a martyr which could mean that he would rather be a prophet AND a martyr instead of just being a prophet. Consider the difference between these two examples:
    - A winner of a silver medal envies the winner of a gold medal and this could denote that the gold medal is a better prize than the silver medal because the two are mutually exclusive.
    - At a pie baking contest, the winner of "baker with the most delicious pie" envies the winner of "baker with the most beautiful pie" does not mean that he consider one to be superior to the other because winning a prize does not exclude you from winning the other prize. What he considers superior is having the prize for the most beautiful pie with respect to not having that prize.
  18. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Student_of_Deen in Coincidence? 12 number in Quran.   
    -That wasn't the verse I quoted.
    - No one claims they are unquestionable authorities, that is the whole point. People are commanded to believe in what has been sent down by Allah, especially those who are scholars or leaders of people in general. Some people will believe and stay on a right path, some people will not or go astray. Similarly, some scholars and leaders will stay on a right path and some will go astray. It is up to the people and especially the other leaders and scholars have a greater reponsibility to correct or in the worst case fight those who go astray.
    - Where are ulil-amr compared to the family of Ibrahim?
    - Anyway, just as you said, people will find ways to let their bias play tricks on them. People can claim that your example is just talking about regular imams  as the word imam has a specific meaning and a general meaning. You can still claim it is not talking about the infallible imams who are mentioned elsewhere. Or is this the only verse that proves their infallibility? Besides, if something is said conditionally, like "if the Prophet is killed .." doesn't mean it will happen. Some people may say this is just conditionally mentioned but it didn't happen
  19. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Student_of_Deen in Coincidence? 12 number in Quran.   
    Actually both translations are a bit off. Admiration lacks the desire that the arabic word carries, but envy has a resentful feeling added to it which isn't correct as a translation either. By the way, it isn't a proof that the status is higher than prophets and martyrs. If for example you would say " the prophets envied the martyrs because of their status" that can mean that they would rather be martyrs instead of prophets or it could mean they would rather be prophets AND martyrs instead of just being prophets. That doesn't mean martyrs have a higher position than prophets.
  20. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Reader. in RTS article: Imam Al-Mahdi (ajf) 'From Prophetic Hadiths' VIII   
    Nice article, but where is something controversial said?
    I know he tries to allude  that al Mahdi is al Askari's claimed son but no Sunni source seems to hint at that, rather maybe even the opposite.
  21. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Cyrax in Coincidence? 12 number in Quran.   
    The reason why a munafiq is treated as a muslim and has the same rights is that you can't really differentiate between a believer and a munafiq. He may hate salat but still performs it, he may not be willing to pay zakat, but he still does pay it, he may not believe in the messengers but he says he does. Muslims are ordered to deal with people by what is apparent and outwardly and publicly done, what is in the hearts of people, Allah will deal with that.
    The difference between a munafiq and a sunni is that a sunni openly and outwardly rejects the concept of Imamah as understood by shia's to be a pillar of islam. So what is the reason that sunni's are legally considered muslims? Is someone who rejects zakat also a muslim, someone who rejects salat, the last day, the hereafter, the messengers, the finality of prophethood or a combination of these or all of these also a muslim legally?
     
  22. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Cyrax in Saqifa, Shura And Imam Ali As   
    For a newbie and a simple layman you sure do claim a lot.  Can you prove it as I think you know quite a lot more than you seem to admit? Do you mean by they all of them?
    Well, technically the roman catholic church  and other christian denominations are not believed to have followed prophet Isa's followers. They have introduced things in later generations or by following a single deviant follower. If it is confirmed that the roman catholic church is following in the footsteps of the followers of prophet Isa but that the followers themselves of Isa who lived with him are the ones who en masse abandoned him due to greed or whatever, then it would be similar.
  23. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Cyrax in Coincidence? 12 number in Quran.   
    Sahih International Why do the rabbis and religious scholars not forbid them from saying what is sinful and devouring what is unlawful? How wretched is what they have been practicing.
     
    Sahih International Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.
     
     
      Sahih International It is not for a human [prophet] that Allah should give him the Scripture and authority and prophethood and then he would say to the people, "Be servants to me rather than Allah ," but [instead, he would say], "Be pious scholars of the Lord because of what you have taught of the Scripture and because of what you have studied."  
    So the ones entrusted with the Scripture and commanded to forbid the people from sin and agression and those who judge are the religious scholars? What other authority are you referring to?
  24. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Cyrax in Coincidence? 12 number in Quran.   
    In ALL it's forms it is used at least 13 times, as a verb it is used 12 times as far as I could count.
    This seems to be correct if you count the plural and single in all its forms, although if you count all words with the same root there is more.
     
    If you only count the definite it is twelve, if not then at least 15 times.
    You mean the word ghayb? That seems to be more than 30-50 times although I admit I didn't check them all but at I least checked it for more than 12.
    That takes place 13 times in its different forms.
     
    A few remarks:
    - you have to be careful when you collect these data because it can result in a selective approach to find what you are looking for. For example you count imam, al-imam and a'imma in all its different forms but Al-qurba you only count when it's definite to reach the number twelve. Same with muflihoon.
    - 12 is a low number so statistically you are bound to find it a few times when you look for it's occurence. If you find the name Ismaeel for example 12 times, but Ibrahim 15 times, Ya'qoub 13 and Daood 11 times for example it isn't statistically significant.
    Don't even start with the number two, that says little to nothing
    - Especially when you claim something aboutr the Quran you have to be careful. I don't say it applies here but I'll add this verse as a reminder:
      Sahih International It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.  
  25. Like
    GreatChineseFall got a reaction from Student_of_Deen in Coincidence? 12 number in Quran.   
    In ALL it's forms it is used at least 13 times, as a verb it is used 12 times as far as I could count.
    This seems to be correct if you count the plural and single in all its forms, although if you count all words with the same root there is more.
     
    If you only count the definite it is twelve, if not then at least 15 times.
    You mean the word ghayb? That seems to be more than 30-50 times although I admit I didn't check them all but at I least checked it for more than 12.
    That takes place 13 times in its different forms.
     
    A few remarks:
    - you have to be careful when you collect these data because it can result in a selective approach to find what you are looking for. For example you count imam, al-imam and a'imma in all its different forms but Al-qurba you only count when it's definite to reach the number twelve. Same with muflihoon.
    - 12 is a low number so statistically you are bound to find it a few times when you look for it's occurence. If you find the name Ismaeel for example 12 times, but Ibrahim 15 times, Ya'qoub 13 and Daood 11 times for example it isn't statistically significant.
    Don't even start with the number two, that says little to nothing
    - Especially when you claim something aboutr the Quran you have to be careful. I don't say it applies here but I'll add this verse as a reminder:
      Sahih International It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.  
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