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In the Name of God بسم الله


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Everything posted by GreatChineseFall

  1. I doubt many did. By the way, you mean revealed regarding Imam Ali (AS) right?
  2. What are you talking about? Why does he claim it for himself and why was there a dispute between him and Ali, her husband regarding the property?
  3. Please, if you start talking about the Matrix I already know what time it is. So anything that goes against the interest of the Ummayyads and Abbasids must be true and whatever is in their interest is obviously fabricated? How does that work actually? What have you read up until now?
  4. First of all, Pharoh? Do you mean Pharaoh? Masseha? Do you mean prophet Isa? What have the Pharao, prophet Isa and Khidr got to do with each other? By the way, now all of a sudden the example doesnt cover the details and you want to discuss what is actually believed? Second of all, you can try to rationalize it as much as you want and come up with all sorts of analogies, but you only delude yourself. People can go on vacation as much as they want, I dont have a problem with that. What is ridiculous to claim is saying that a person on vacation can manage a business. Believe me, such a person cant even take care of an egg or a bag of flour and would be outclassed by any ninth-grader, let alone taking care of a business or the affairs of a nation. The irony is that in criticizing sunni's that the Prophet saws when leaving for Tabuk for forty days left a substitute in Medina you actually forget yourself. So, the Prophet saws, the best man ever created, who only leaves for forty days and goes to Tabuk which is only a few hundreds of kms from Medina, only leaving women and children behind, still appoints someone to take care of the affairs of the people of Medina, and you believe in al Mahdi who is nowhere to be seen for over a thousand years and you claim that he has been running the affairs of the people? Please, you live in a fairytale, it's time for you to wake up.
  5. You can keep repeating yourself, but you have simply nothing to stand on. The Prophet's words are clear.
  6. You should read the verse more carefully: Sahih International Allah instructs you concerning your children: for the male, what is equal to the share of two females. But if there are [only] daughters, two or more, for them is two thirds of one's estate. And if there is only one, for her is half. And for one's parents, to each one of them is a sixth of his estate if he left children. But if he had no children and the parents [alone] inherit from him, then for his mother is one third. And if he had brothers [or sisters], for his mother is a sixth, after any bequest he [may have] made or debt. Your parents or your children - you know not which of them are nearest to you in benefit. [These shares are] an obligation [imposed] by Allah . Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise. The rules of inheritance apply only after debts have been paid and bequests have been fulfilled. All that is needed is the Prophet's statement concerning this and you are in no position to question him then.
  7. Hilarious, twelver shia's are one of the last to speak about what makes sense and challenge sunni's about that. Why dont you concern yourself with your own predicament first? "A" establishes one of the most succesfull glass factories of all time. He appoints a successor and hands it over to "B" who later on hands it over to "C", and so on up until the twelfth successor of "A", "M"."M" however decides to go on a long vacation only a few minutes after having been installed. It is promised that he will still manage the company from his place of vacation by the use of internet and all the camera's installed in the factory. He however never contacts his employees personally but only send messages from time to time anonymously. As the company is left with no manager, other competitors see the oppurtunity and take most of the market share of the glass factory. At the same time, the company suffers from bad management, strikes and financial fraud. The people are however assures that this is not the end of the company and he promises to come back soon. The problem is the employees themselves who are not sincere enough and do not care about the company. It is promised that he will set things straight after most insincere employees have left the company who are only after money and 313 trustworthy and capable employees are left. This has been going on for over a 1000 years while at the same time, "M" has never been seen by any of his employees, save the ones who claimed to be present when he was installed, he has never trained any employee to do anything, he has never presided over any meeting, he has never held a speech to any group of employees and still Time Magazine chooses him every year as the Best Manager of the Year. Does this make sense to anyone?
  8. Keep me out of it, you still havent told me what Zayd did wrong here: Sahih International And [remember, O Muhammad], when you said to the one on whom Allah bestowed favor and you bestowed favor, "Keep your wife and fear Allah ," while you concealed within yourself that which Allah is to disclose. And you feared the people, while Allah has more right that you fear Him. So when Zayd had no longer any need for her, We married her to you in order that there not be upon the believers any discomfort concerning the wives of their adopted sons when they no longer have need of them. And ever is the command of Allah accomplished. and whether a person who is claimed to be a Prophet and a mercy for mankind is exposed if he himself punishes people. By the way, thanks again for showing how your thought processes work and how you arrive to your conclusions. Let's just say that this conclusion and your conclusions about the history after the Prophet's death are equally valid, agreed? And that the probability of al Mahdi being born already is just as great as the probability of the two accounts GreatChineseFall and onereligion belonging to the same person, ok? Better yet, let's do a small mubahala: May Allah curse me, the creator of the account GreatChineseFall, if the two accounts GreatChinesFall and onereligion were both created by me and may Allah curse you, the creator of the account shiaman14, if they were not both created by me. Now for you to say the same, just replace "you" by "me" and "me" by "you". Continue exposing yourself once again by crawling back to where you came from or continue to jeopardize your faith as before. Your choice.
  9. What historical sources are you talking about? You mean at Tabari who can have over 50 different narratives about the same incident and then you quote the one you find shia's quoting? Tell me, which historical book have you read from cover to cover actually?
  10. I cant help much further as far as English goes. Tafsir al Mizan is probably your best guess. al Tabataba'i apparently accepts the narration about the Prophet getting bewitched but he says that he was only bodily affected not mentally:
  11. Salam, I see that you have been banned unfortunately, maybe it will be reversed but I still have a few comments to add: As I said earlier and I will say again, for the third time now, I dont have a problem with calling it a leader. The extent of leadership is clear from the definition. Let's agree then and no sunni will disagree with you that an Imam is a leader, so now what? Does that mean that any leader you imitate and follow must be divinely designated? Because no sunni will agree with you on that. By the way, say goodbye to the maraji' taqleed then as well. But then you'll say "No no no, it's not any kind of leader, it's only the kind of where you rule over your followers". That however can nowhere be concluded from the word Imam or from the context of the verse, it is simply your preconceived notions about Imamate that lead you to think that. The context is clear that prophet Ibrahim as is an Imam because he is imitated and followed in what he established as a sunnah. As al Tabarsi also somewhat notes: وكان سعيد بن المسيب يقول: كان إبراهيم أول الناس أضاف الضيف وأول الناس اختتن وأول الناس قصّ شاربه واستحدّ وأول الناس رأى الشيب فلما رآه قال يا رب ما هذا قال هذا الوقار قال يا رب فزدني وقاراً, وهذا أيضاً قد رواه السكوني عن أبي عبد الله ولم يذكر أول من قص شاربه واستحد وزاد فيه وأول من قاتل في سبيل الله إبراهيم, وأول من اتخذ النعلين إبراهيم وأول من اتخذ الرايات إبراهيم. So he as was the first to be circumcised, the first to establish Hajj along with its rituals, the first to sacrifice a sheep for Allah, etc. And I like your quote too: Yes this is exactly what it was, if that is what you mean by authority then I have no issue with that, he was the Imam of the hanafiyyah. The issue is, how in the world is that comparable to a Khalifa? Please, come on, read it again. You literally said it can't mean قدوة, he literally says الإمام. القُدْوة and then you say I dont disagree with him linguistically, he just explains it wrongly. Seriously, who are we kidding here, that is just weak. Actually, only Muhkam and Kamoos say that, the others dont and they give an example, that is why they say "such as" and that is also why they conclude with "or any other person". You are ascribing an opinion to me and then you attack it, that is a strawman fallacy. He is not just an example for inspiration, I clarified what I meant with that and I dont see anything related to rule. You can keep repeating your stances, but that will not make me understand your argument. Let's see who really plays with religion here. You claim that sunni scholars try to change the meaning, but that is only your prerogative. Why would ar Razi for example try to change the meaning to something that he never argues for. Because we know that ar Razi believes that Imamamah refers to Prophethood, so why would he change the meaning of Imam into an example? That doesn't make sense. The changing really comes from shia scholars, because we the word Imam in another verse as well: Sahih International And those who say, "Our Lord, grant us from among our wives and offspring comfort to our eyes and make us an example for the righteous." Let's see how the shia scholars deal with this: Tafsir al Qummi قال: وقرئ عند أبي عبد الله عليه السلام: { والذين يقولون ربنا هب لنا من أزواجنا وذرياتنا قرة أعين واجعلنا للمتقين إماما } فقال: قد سألوا الله عظيماً أن يجعلهم للمتقين أئمة! فقيل له: كيف هذا يابن رسول الله؟ قال: إنما أنزل الله: { الذين يقولون ربنا هب لنا من أزواجنا وذرياتنا قرة أعين واجعل لنا من المتقين إماماً } Apparently the correct recitation according to the Ahl al Bayt is واجعل لنا من المتقين إماماً "And make for us from among the pious an Imam" and not how we recite it. Tafsir at Tabarsi: القراءة: قرأ أبو عمرو وأهل الكوفة غير حفص وذريتنا والباقون ذرياتنا على الجمع وقرأ يلقون بفتح الياء والتخفيف أهل الكوفة غير حفص والباقون يُلقّون بضم الياء والتشديد وفي قراءة أهل البيت (ع) واجعل لنا من المتقين إماماً والقراءة المشهورة واجعلنا للمتقين إماماً وفي قراءة ابن عباس وابن الزبير فقد كذب الكافرون. "And in the recitation of the Ahl al Bayt 'And make for us from among the pious an Imam'". Again, this is apparently the recitation of the Ahl al Bayt, not "the recitation falsely attributed to the Ahl al Bayt" or some explanation given, no it is the qira'at Ahl al Bayt. Tafsir at Tusi وقوله { واجعلنا للمتقين إماماً } أي يسألون الله تعالى أن يجعلهم ممن يقتدى بأفعالهم الطاعات. وفي قراءة اهل البيت (ع) و { اجعل لنا من المتقين إماماً } Again, no condemnation of this utterly blasphemous allegation. Tafsir al Mizan by Tabataba'i وفي قراءة أهل البيت { واجعل لنا من المتقين إماماً }. No condemnation Tafsir al Janabadhi وفى رواية عن الصّادق (ع): قد سألوا الله عظيماً ان يجعلهم للمتّقين ائمّة فقيل له كيف هذا يا بن رسول الله (ص)؟- قال: انّما انزل الله واجعل لنا من المتّقين اماماً، وهذا ممّا أسلفنا فى اوّل الكتاب من سعة وجوه القرآن بقدر سعة مراتب الخلق، وانّ القرآن لا مانع من ان يكون نزوله بقراءاتٍ مختلفةٍ بحسب اختلاف النّاس. He apparantely says it's ok, as different readings of the Quran are not a problem. Tafsir Fayd al Kashani وقرء عنده هذه الآية فقال قد سألوا الله عظيماً ان يجعلهم للمتّقين أئمّة فقيل له كيف هذا يا ابن رسول الله قال انّما أنزل الله { واجعل لنا من المتقين إماماً }. He simply repeats al Qummi You can see the almost frantic and obsessed way in attributing and changing everything to point any verse to the Imams. Can you point me to some tafaseer who completely rejects this attribution to the Ahl al Bayt as total BS and considers it an insult to the faith and to the Ahl al Bayt. I'll be surprised if you even find one. At least they understood what accepting this verse as is would have as consequences. If this isn't playing with religion, I don't know what is. Rather it's a mockery of religion.
  12. Salam aleikum, I dont know if you can find it in english books but this narration is also present in Hurr al Amili's Wasail as Shia and in Tusi's al Istibsaar.
  13. Wa alaikum salam, I am fine thanks, hope you are well too. Sorry for the delayed response. Let's first start with this then: Tafsir at Tabari: يعنـي جل ثناؤه بقوله: { إنّـي جاعِلُكَ للنّاسِ إماماً } فقال الله: يا إبراهيـم إنـي مُصَيِّرك للناس إماماً يؤتـمّ به ويقتدي به. Allah said: " O Ibrahim, it is indeed your destiny that you will be an Imam for the people, following you and imitating you" Tafsir al Qurtubi: السابعة عشرة: قوله تعالى: { إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَاماً } الإمام. القُدْوة؛ ومنه قيل لخيط البناء: إمام، وللطريق: إمام؛ لأنه يؤم فيه للمسالك، أي يقصد. فالمعنى: جعلناك للناس إماماً يأتّمون بك في هذه الخصال، ويقتدي بك الصالحون.al Imam, a role model, and it is said for a builder's ruler: Imam, and the road: Imam, so the meaning is: I will make you an Imam for the people to imitate your qualities and the righteous will emulate you Tafsir Ibn Katheer: قال: { إِنِّى جَـٰعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا } أي: جزاء على ما فعل، كما قام بالأوامر وترك الزواجر جعله الله للناس قدوة، وإماماً يقتدى به ويحتذى حذوه. The reward for what he did, by performing what was commanded and leaving what was prohibited, Allah made him an exemplar, an Imam who is imitated. Tafsir al Jalalyn: { قَالَ } تعالى له: { إِنّى جَٰعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا } قدوة في الدين an exemplar in faith Tafsir al Shawkani: وأخرج عبد بن حميد، عن ابن عباس، { قَالَ إِنّى جَـٰعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا } يقتدى بدينك، وهديك، وسنتك They will imitate you in your faith, in your guidance and in your sunnah. Tafsir as Samarqandi: فلما وفىّ الأمر جعله الله تعالى إماماً للناس [ليقتدوا] به When he completed the command, Allah made him an Imam for the people (to imitate him) Tafsir al Baghwi: قال الله تعالىٰ: { قَالَ: إِنِّى جَـٰعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا } يقتدى بك في الخير "I will make you an Imam for the people", to imitate you with respect to goodness. Tafsir ibn Attiya: فأوحى الله إليه { إني جاعلك للناس إماماً } يأتمون بك في هذه الخصال، ويقتدي بك الصالحون. And Allah inspired to him: "I will make you an Imam for the people" to follow you in these qualities, and the righteous will imitate you. And countless countless other tafaseer. I can keep going for a while. And let's also see what the common meaning is of Imam. In Lane's Lexicon and when it comes to Arabic-English translation, this really is the only one worth considering due to its comprehensiveness and rigourousness, David Lane is quoting from several Arabic lexica what the common meaning is: For reference, S, Mgh, Msb, T, M, K refer to as-Sihah, the Mughrib, Misbah, Tahdheeb (Al Azhari), Muhkam and Kamoos respectively. And as I said earlier, I have no problem with calling it a leader, the meaning is clear, you are simply discussing semantics to avoid the issue. Even ar Razi who you quoted explains what an Imam generally means: فثبت بهذ أن اسم الإمام لمن استحق الاقتداء به في الدين وقد يسمى بذلك أيضاً من يؤتم به في الباطل And this proves that an Imam is one who is entitled to be emulated in matters of faith and it is also said for those who are followed in falsehood. It is one thing to disagree with me, it is another to misrepresent classical sunni tafaseer. Don't fool yourself, I can assure they hide their faces from you and your interpretation.
  14. Hard to tell and I am in no position to say something about that. Kitab Sulaym ibn Qays doesnt really fit later shia's or early shia's so its kind of a mystery. You do find references to it in the generation of al Kulayni and so on.
  15. The people definitely refers to all people present and future which is the usual meaning of the word without any restrictions. If there is one thing that should be clear from the verse then it should be this, it is even confirmed by the next verses: Sahih International And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers." Sahih International And [mention] when We made the House a place of return for the people and [a place of] security. And take, [O believers], from the standing place of Abraham a place of prayer. And We charged Abraham and Ishmael, [saying], "Purify My House for those who perform Tawaf and those who are staying [there] for worship and those who bow and prostrate [in prayer]." Sahih International And [mention] when Abraham said, "My Lord, make this a secure city and provide its people with fruits - whoever of them believes in Allah and the Last Day." [ Allah ] said. "And whoever disbelieves - I will grant him enjoyment for a little; then I will force him to the punishment of the Fire, and wretched is the destination." Sahih International And [mention] when Abraham was raising the foundations of the House and [with him] Ishmael, [saying], "Our Lord, accept [this] from us. Indeed You are the Hearing, the Knowing. Sahih International Our Lord, and make us Muslims [in submission] to You and from our descendants a Muslim nation [in submission] to You. And show us our rites and accept our repentance. Indeed, You are the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful. Sahih International Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from themselves who will recite to them Your verses and teach them the Book and wisdom and purify them. Indeed, You are the Exalted in Might, the Wise." Sahih International And who would be averse to the religion of Abraham except one who makes a fool of himself. And We had chosen him in this world, and indeed he, in the Hereafter, will be among the righteous. For who was the House made a place of return, his people only or all? And why do you think that of all the prophets in the Quran Ibrahim is singled out over and over again and we are ordered by Allah to "watabi'u millatu Ibrahim" ie to follow the religion of Ibrahim as? And why does Ibrahim ask for a messenger to be sent to them if an Imam is higher and better? I cant see how you can conclude anything else from this. Yes, Ibrahim as was already an example to be followed but he wasnt followed by the people. If it is said "I will make you an Imam for the people" or "I will make you a king/prophet" then it doesnt mean "I am giving you the right to lead or I am giving you the right to rule a kingdom/to receive revelation but you may die tomorrow due to a car crash, but that doesnt matter I am just giving you rights, no guarantee about what will actually happen in the future". No, that doesnt make sense and this is what I have been saying from the beginning. The right to be followed was given the moment he was a Messenger, Allah is saying and promising him that He will make people follow him, present and future generations. And there is no takeover whatsoever because its nowhere forbidden to have multiple Imams, that is your preconceived notion that there must be a takeover. He as is asking for his descendants to be rewarded with the same, that they will be followed by the people too. You still misunderstand and no, common sense doesnt dictate that, I would suggest you try to distinguish between a purpose and a cause. If I test someone for his trustworthiness and then give him a job because I need a trustworthy person to do a job then the purpose of the test is not to give him a job, the purpose of the test was to check his trustworthiness. The fact that I need a person who is trustworthy for a certain job has no relevance whatsoever with the purpose of the test. Similarly if I test someone's intelligence and then let him something do that needs intelligence doesnt mean the purpose of the test is to let him do that. Besides, if you insist that people only means his people not all, then it might be that certain requirements were needed for his people and not all. I can assure you there is no contradiction here. As a matter of fact the contradiction in saying that the purpose of Allah's test is "to see if he is worthy" and then saying that Allah already knows he is worthy but the purpose of the test was "just creating a doorway to give him this rank by Ibrahim's actions" cant be more obvious. First you attack the interpretation of being a leader by example and then you come with this. The last is exactly what I have been saying with regards to the example. Allah already knows he is worthy of being followed and already gave him the right to be followed, the test was "just a means through which people know how to follow him by his actions". Saying that the purpose is to give someone a job is different from saying that it's to check if someone is worthy for a job, it's different from saying that the purpose is to show him what is necessary for this job, it's different from saying the purpose is to show others what is necessary for a job etc., that should be clear to anyone I would say. You are just repeating, I still dont understand. But forget about my interpretation, Allah is rewarding Ibrahim with something, whatever that might be, due to his excellent behaviour. Ibrahim is asking if his descendants will be rewarded with the same but the reward will not be given to those who are wrongdoers. In what way is that related to the specifics of the reward? Second, let's say you are right and this is what Ibrahim as understood from Allah's words. You can in no way become an Imam without being tested and showing that you are worthy. So what was he asking, was he asking can You reward my descendants with the same without being tested, was he asking can you test my descendants but regardless of passing or not, just give them Imamah, or was he asking can you test my descendants and of those who pass give them Imamah? Sigh... If I ask any kid what a ra'ees and an imam is he will tell me that one is the president of a country and an the other is one who leads the prayers, that doesnt make it part of its definition. So riyasat majlis al-amn is about rule of the Security Council, a ra'ees al fareeq, the captain of a team is one who rules the other members of a team? Let's make this easier instead of going on about definitions as I was talking about what ar-Razi means anyway and not what the definition is. I couldn't care less what awlaad exactly meanswith regards to what ar Razi means, there is no way ar Razi doesnt mean descendants because he explains this. I couldn't care less what imamah or riyasa exactly means with regards to what ar Razi means, there is no way ar Razi doesn't mean prophethood because he literally says that imamah means prophethood here. I simply argue that they are not different, the examples are closer to each other than you can tell or would like to admit. You can't simply dismiss anything I say, if it is different show how. Going to battle is also a test, not running away is also a fulfillment of that test, being martyred is the reward of the test, you can just simply replace imamah by martyrdom and try to answer the same question to see where you go wrong: As for your questions, I already answered: first of all the right to be followed was already given, even if I accept it was rewarded your argument is based on the premise that what is rewarded is higher than what is granted, I disagree. Third, it would only show that a prophet who becomes an Imam is higher than a prophet who doesnt become an Imam, nothing more.
  16. No it's not just remembering and yes, he is a leader because his example is followed, so he leads us by showing us how to live and believe. The verse is saying that Allah will make him an example that is to be followed. Call it an example or a leader, our disagreement is not the wording, it's clear to me that I believe that it's talking about leadership in terms of being followed and you believe it is talking about leadership in terms of being obeyed. I don't see how you can derive that from the verse, it's quite obvious that he is an Imam to mankind and to later generations just as much as he was to his own generation and he doesn't rule later generations so it is not talking about rulership or being a head of state of any kind. How can he rule later generations? I would say that is a simplistic description of sunni's but it's not that relevant anyway, I am not asking for a word, I am asking for an explicit proof that rule is only legitimate can only be done by people who have been "divinely" designated to do this, meaning through revelation or divine inspiration. I dont necessarily disagree with you, you simply try to argue for two things at the same time. If you talk about the reason as in a cause for something, sure the reason why Allah said I will make you an Imam is because he fulfilled all his tests completely. If you talk about reason as in a purpose for something, no the purpose of testing is not to be made an Imam. As I said, being tested serves a purpose in of itsself. If a company owner decides to test one of his employees and then rewards him with a raise in salary or a promotion to an executive position then sure the reason for his raise or promotion is his successful pass of the test, the purpose of testing him is not to give him a raise or promotion, that doesn't make sense. The purpose of testing is simply that, testing his loyalty. Why not? I dont understand this argument at all. Allah promises that if you obey him, he will make an example of you for other people. What has the fact that it is part of a divine pact got to do with the possibility of either of the two interpretations? Riyasa fi deen is simply leadership in faith, ar Razi cant possibly say that its about rule because he literally says that Imamah means Nubuwah and prophets do not necessarily rule. What is talked about is not rule and the two positions are different so what is "voted" for is not what this verse is talking about. Besides you are making a mistake, showing that an incident occurred under certain conditions doesnt prove that those conditions are necessary. Going back to the company example, if the owner makes a deal with his employees that anyone who make his 1000th sale will be promoted to an executive position doesnt prove that an executive position can only be attained if you make a thousand sales. Again, I do not believe it is a position as you describe prophethood. Second, this argument is not sound, it is based on the assumption that what is rewarded is automatically higher than what is granted. Which is absurd because if prophethood is granted and martyrdom is attained after battle, it doesnt mean that a martyr is higher than a prophet. Third, technically even if we accept this assumption the argument still doesnt stand. It would only prove that a prophet who becomes an imam is higher than a prophet who never becomes an imam. It doesnt prove that a person who never was a prophet and becomes an imam is higher than a prophet who never becomes an imam. I still stand by my point that two different things are spoken about, nor does it have to refer to direct means and voting by pious just Muslims can be seen as a fulfillment of that pact. If Ibrahim as is granted a child at old age as part of a divine pact for being obedient, that doesnt mean if you are old you have to wait for divine revelation giving you permission to try and have a child. Ameen
  17. I dont think it was that significant, at least not at that time. I just believe its somewhat early where if I recall correctly there are narrations where the Imams are named up to Imam al Baqir, the rest are from al Baqir's descendents so the names were not even known, the downfall of Bani Umayya was predicted at the hands of al Mahdi etc. and simply the fact that it doesnt completely fit shia doctrine as is usual for early works that dont fit into a particular doctrine.
  18. I dont see a problem with quoting verses as it's the basis people do not differ about. I also dont think your answer about the just community was adequate enough, I just added more verses to provide context. Yes, context is everything and I am arguing that the context in all those verses is similar. What I object to is the impression given that a divine right is given by Allah when it is said that Allah has made something in this context. No, Allah didnt give the people a right to be just or designated them to be a just community, which doesnt make sense in this context as being just is an obligation not a right, its simply stating that Allah has granted them or rewarded them with making them just among each other. There is also not any type of right granted to the successors of the people of Noah other than the normal natural process that Allah has allowed to take place. In what way is that different than a person assuming power and claiming that Allah has designated him to be a successor on earth? No right is given to people to be enemies of prophets either, no specific right is given to the wives of the Prophets to become their wives, prophets did not go to people and tell them that Allah has designated such and such person to be his wife, simply that Allah has made them become his wives through proposal etc. by Allah's permission. Similarly, I argue that Ibrahim as is not given a right to be followed here, nothing is given in the quoted verse. The right to be followed or divine designation if you wish was already given the moment he became a Messenger. What the verse talks about here is the promise by Allah that he will make him succeed in his mission and that he will be followed by the people and that he will be remembered by them Furthermore, the context of Imam in this verse is not even related to the proof that is usually asked for regarding the succession of the Prophet saw. Just as I can't use the example of disbelievers being khulafaa' in the previous verse to claim that a caliph can be a disbeliever as clearly the context of khulafaa' is talking about people who came to follow or replace others (in the sense of existence, not authority at least not divine authority). Similarly, the context of Imam here is different from the political and religious duties the Prophet saw had and needed to be performed after his death. It is exactly the same context as the people that asked for Imamah here: Sahih International And those who say, "Our Lord, grant us from among our wives and offspring comfort to our eyes and make us an example for the righteous." They didn't ask for authority or a kingdom or to have any kind of political and religious duties bestowed upon them in any way, they simply asked for later generations to remember them and to be an inspiration for them through their good works and obedience to Allah. There are some major disagreements here on many different levels, first I dont agree that the purpose of him being tested was to make him a leader, being tested is in of itsself a purpose, him being made a leader for mankind is a reward. And He is not designating anything here, He simply tells him that He will make him remembered and followed by next generations. He is not testing him for that purpose, the right to be followed was already given, it is simply stating that the guarantee of him being followed is by means of his actions. In other words, later generations will remember him and one of the main reasons why they do so is because of this example of extreme obedience to Allah and adherence to Tawhid, so this incident serves as a means through which he will be remembered. We disagree on the designation, he already was "designated" to be followed. Secondly, the position of Imam what is spoken about here is not the same position as what people choose their leader to be in the case of Khilafa. This Imamah in this context is the leadership extending to later generations(primarily later generations), not a temporary political and religious head of state. Again, the other verse of people asking to be made an Imam for mankind provides the proper context. The test is not in order to become an Imam, being made an example to mankind is a reward and the test is one of the means through which he becomes an example to mankind. Second, Prophethood is granted, while him being made a leader is a reward, naturally things that have been granted do not need anything while rewards need something to have occurred prior to it being rewarded. Besides, again the context is important, I dont even consider Imamah to be a separate station like Prophethood or Messengership and for that you need to consider again the example of people asking to be made an Imam for mankind. A similar context is provided in these verses: Sahih International Or [consider such an example] as the one who passed by a township which had fallen into ruin. He said, "How will Allah bring this to life after its death?" So Allah caused him to die for a hundred years; then He revived him. He said, "How long have you remained?" The man said, "I have remained a day or part of a day." He said, "Rather, you have remained one hundred years. Look at your food and your drink; it has not changed with time. And look at your donkey; and We will make you a sign for the people. And look at the bones [of this donkey] - how We raise them and then We cover them with flesh." And when it became clear to him, he said, "I know that Allah is over all things competent." Sahih International He said, "Thus [it will be]; your Lord says, 'It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign to the people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter [already] decreed.' " Being made a sign for people is not a separate station like Prophethood and Messengership, its simply describing an attribute just like Imamah in the context of Ibrahim as and the means through which this occurs ie through those incidents. That doesnt mean that that which is rewarded or made to be so through certain means is higher than that which is granted, they are not even comparable. Yes it is, a pact which means that if you fulfill your promise and show obedience to Allah and adhere to Tawhid, Allah will fulfill His promise and make you leaders( in the sense of examples) to mankind. It is entirely different to the station of Prophethood and Messengership nor is it related to the duties a head of state has. Pickthall And We desired to show favour unto those who were oppressed in the earth, and to make them examples and to make them the inheritors, Here again, it is in the context of being made example for later generations, exactly the same context as the case of Prophet Ibrahim as and shows the extent of the pact. If you fulfill your promise, Allah will fulfill His in making you leaders or examples to mankind. Is it possible that Prophethood or Messengership was desired to be in certain people but because of their disobedience didnt happen? This shows the difference between a station that is granted and something that is rewarded as part of a promise or pact.
  19. The duties mankind has as revealed by Allah in the Qur'an (ie worshipping Allah, establishing justice and prohibiting corruption on earth) Being a leader is in of itsself a duty, so the duty of leading others to guidance
  20. Their influence was minimal during the Prophet's lifetime and it's a fair assumption that it continued to be so after him unless evidence is provided to prove otherwise.
  21. The problem is not what you call divine, the problem is the connotation it carries. For sunni's everything that happens is because Allah is choosing it to be so, if that is what is meant then there is no problem with calling something to be divine nor does there seem to be a prohibition then to do something as a result of consultation. What shia's actually mean is that it is by direct divine intervention or revelation with no human interference. In that case, just pointing to a verse saying that Allah has "made/assigned" something to be, doesnt prove the shia's understanding. I already don't see that in the verse about a community becoming just anyway, there are even clearer verses that show that it's not necessarily as the shia's say: Sahih International And to the 'Aad [We sent] their brother Hud. He said, "O my people, worship Allah ; you have no deity other than Him. Then will you not fear Him?" Sahih International Said the eminent ones who disbelieved among his people, "Indeed, we see you in foolishness, and indeed, we think you are of the liars." Sahih International [Hud] said, "O my people, there is not foolishness in me, but I am a messenger from the Lord of the worlds." Sahih International I convey to you the messages of my Lord, and I am to you a trustworthy adviser. Sahih International Then do you wonder that there has come to you a reminder from your Lord through a man from among you, that he may warn you? And remember when He made you successors after the people of Noah and increased you in stature extensively. So remember the favors of Allah that you might succeed. It is clear from the verse that the disbelievers of 'Aad are spoken about and they are not Divinely chosen unless you mean that they were born and grew up with the permission of Allah which happens through the choices(influenced by consultation) and the marriages(also consultation) of their forefathers Sahih International And thus We have made for every prophet an enemy - devils from mankind and jinn, inspiring to one another decorative speech in delusion. But if your Lord had willed, they would not have done it, so leave them and that which they invent. Here again, the enemies are not appointed through direct divine intervention or revelation, it's their disbelief and arrogance etc. that leads them to become enemies of prophets. Sahih International And thus We have placed within every city the greatest of its criminals to conspire therein. But they conspire not except against themselves, and they perceive [it] not. Again, not in appointed, not in the sense shia's argue. Sahih International And Allah has made for you from your homes a place of rest and made for you from the hides of the animals tents which you find light on your day of travel and your day of encampment; and from their wool, fur and hair is furnishing and enjoyment for a time. Tents do not rain from the sky nor is there proof people decided to make tents due to divine revelation, simply people consulting with each other to make them. Sahih International And We have already sent messengers before you and assigned to them wives and descendants. And it was not for a messenger to come with a sign except by permission of Allah . For every term is a decree. Wives are chosen through consultation, there are no narrations that I know of that talk about how the Prophet saw was instructed to marry his wives. As a matter of fact, it doesnt matter for most of his wives as his marriage to Khadija was years before his Prophethood, so that couldnt have come through divine order.
  22. The OP is asking about hypocrites who are by definition kuffar(depending on what you understand being a hypocrite means). So if you set out to find who hypocrites were, then you are accusing them of kufr.
  23. People need to explain what they mean when they something is Divinely made so. Sahih International And thus we have made you a just community that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful. The making of someone a leader is just as divine as the community was made just.
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