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In the Name of God بسم الله


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  1. I doubt many did. By the way, you mean revealed regarding Imam Ali (AS) right?
  2. What are you talking about? Why does he claim it for himself and why was there a dispute between him and Ali, her husband regarding the property?
  3. Please, if you start talking about the Matrix I already know what time it is. So anything that goes against the interest of the Ummayyads and Abbasids must be true and whatever is in their interest is obviously fabricated? How does that work actually? What have you read up until now?
  4. First of all, Pharoh? Do you mean Pharaoh? Masseha? Do you mean prophet Isa? What have the Pharao, prophet Isa and Khidr got to do with each other? By the way, now all of a sudden the example doesnt cover the details and you want to discuss what is actually believed? Second of all, you can try to rationalize it as much as you want and come up with all sorts of analogies, but you only delude yourself. People can go on vacation as much as they want, I dont have a problem with that. What is ridiculous to claim is saying that a person on vacation can manage a business. Believe me, such a person cant even take care of an egg or a bag of flour and would be outclassed by any ninth-grader, let alone taking care of a business or the affairs of a nation. The irony is that in criticizing sunni's that the Prophet saws when leaving for Tabuk for forty days left a substitute in Medina you actually forget yourself. So, the Prophet saws, the best man ever created, who only leaves for forty days and goes to Tabuk which is only a few hundreds of kms from Medina, only leaving women and children behind, still appoints someone to take care of the affairs of the people of Medina, and you believe in al Mahdi who is nowhere to be seen for over a thousand years and you claim that he has been running the affairs of the people? Please, you live in a fairytale, it's time for you to wake up.
  5. You can keep repeating yourself, but you have simply nothing to stand on. The Prophet's words are clear.
  6. You should read the verse more carefully: Sahih International Allah instructs you concerning your children: for the male, what is equal to the share of two females. But if there are [only] daughters, two or more, for them is two thirds of one's estate. And if there is only one, for her is half. And for one's parents, to each one of them is a sixth of his estate if he left children. But if he had no children and the parents [alone] inherit from him, then for his mother is one third. And if he had brothers [or sisters], for his mother is a sixth, after any bequest he [may have] made or debt. Your parents or your children - you know not which of them are nearest to you in benefit. [These shares are] an obligation [imposed] by Allah . Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise. The rules of inheritance apply only after debts have been paid and bequests have been fulfilled. All that is needed is the Prophet's statement concerning this and you are in no position to question him then.
  7. Hilarious, twelver shia's are one of the last to speak about what makes sense and challenge sunni's about that. Why dont you concern yourself with your own predicament first? "A" establishes one of the most succesfull glass factories of all time. He appoints a successor and hands it over to "B" who later on hands it over to "C", and so on up until the twelfth successor of "A", "M"."M" however decides to go on a long vacation only a few minutes after having been installed. It is promised that he will still manage the company from his place of vacation by the use of internet and all the camera's installed in the factory. He however never contacts his employees personally but only send messages from time to time anonymously. As the company is left with no manager, other competitors see the oppurtunity and take most of the market share of the glass factory. At the same time, the company suffers from bad management, strikes and financial fraud. The people are however assures that this is not the end of the company and he promises to come back soon. The problem is the employees themselves who are not sincere enough and do not care about the company. It is promised that he will set things straight after most insincere employees have left the company who are only after money and 313 trustworthy and capable employees are left. This has been going on for over a 1000 years while at the same time, "M" has never been seen by any of his employees, save the ones who claimed to be present when he was installed, he has never trained any employee to do anything, he has never presided over any meeting, he has never held a speech to any group of employees and still Time Magazine chooses him every year as the Best Manager of the Year. Does this make sense to anyone?
  8. Keep me out of it, you still havent told me what Zayd did wrong here: Sahih International And [remember, O Muhammad], when you said to the one on whom Allah bestowed favor and you bestowed favor, "Keep your wife and fear Allah ," while you concealed within yourself that which Allah is to disclose. And you feared the people, while Allah has more right that you fear Him. So when Zayd had no longer any need for her, We married her to you in order that there not be upon the believers any discomfort concerning the wives of their adopted sons when they no longer have need of them. And ever is the command of Allah accomplished. and whether a person who is claimed to be a Prophet and a mercy for mankind is exposed if he himself punishes people. By the way, thanks again for showing how your thought processes work and how you arrive to your conclusions. Let's just say that this conclusion and your conclusions about the history after the Prophet's death are equally valid, agreed? And that the probability of al Mahdi being born already is just as great as the probability of the two accounts GreatChineseFall and onereligion belonging to the same person, ok? Better yet, let's do a small mubahala: May Allah curse me, the creator of the account GreatChineseFall, if the two accounts GreatChinesFall and onereligion were both created by me and may Allah curse you, the creator of the account shiaman14, if they were not both created by me. Now for you to say the same, just replace "you" by "me" and "me" by "you". Continue exposing yourself once again by crawling back to where you came from or continue to jeopardize your faith as before. Your choice.
  9. What historical sources are you talking about? You mean at Tabari who can have over 50 different narratives about the same incident and then you quote the one you find shia's quoting? Tell me, which historical book have you read from cover to cover actually?
  10. I cant help much further as far as English goes. Tafsir al Mizan is probably your best guess. al Tabataba'i apparently accepts the narration about the Prophet getting bewitched but he says that he was only bodily affected not mentally:
  11. Salam, I see that you have been banned unfortunately, maybe it will be reversed but I still have a few comments to add: As I said earlier and I will say again, for the third time now, I dont have a problem with calling it a leader. The extent of leadership is clear from the definition. Let's agree then and no sunni will disagree with you that an Imam is a leader, so now what? Does that mean that any leader you imitate and follow must be divinely designated? Because no sunni will agree with you on that. By the way, say goodbye to the maraji' taqleed then as well. But then you'll say "No no no, it's not any kind of leader, it's only the kind of where you rule over your followers". That however can nowhere be concluded from the word Imam or from the context of the verse, it is simply your preconceived notions about Imamate that lead you to think that. The context is clear that prophet Ibrahim as is an Imam because he is imitated and followed in what he established as a sunnah. As al Tabarsi also somewhat notes: وكان سعيد بن المسيب يقول: كان إبراهيم أول الناس أضاف الضيف وأول الناس اختتن وأول الناس قصّ شاربه واستحدّ وأول الناس رأى الشيب فلما رآه قال يا رب ما هذا قال هذا الوقار قال يا رب فزدني وقاراً, وهذا أيضاً قد رواه السكوني عن أبي عبد الله ولم يذكر أول من قص شاربه واستحد وزاد فيه وأول من قاتل في سبيل الله إبراهيم, وأول من اتخذ النعلين إبراهيم وأول من اتخذ الرايات إبراهيم. So he as was the first to be circumcised, the first to establish Hajj along with its rituals, the first to sacrifice a sheep for Allah, etc. And I like your quote too: Yes this is exactly what it was, if that is what you mean by authority then I have no issue with that, he was the Imam of the hanafiyyah. The issue is, how in the world is that comparable to a Khalifa? Please, come on, read it again. You literally said it can't mean قدوة, he literally says الإمام. القُدْوة and then you say I dont disagree with him linguistically, he just explains it wrongly. Seriously, who are we kidding here, that is just weak. Actually, only Muhkam and Kamoos say that, the others dont and they give an example, that is why they say "such as" and that is also why they conclude with "or any other person". You are ascribing an opinion to me and then you attack it, that is a strawman fallacy. He is not just an example for inspiration, I clarified what I meant with that and I dont see anything related to rule. You can keep repeating your stances, but that will not make me understand your argument. Let's see who really plays with religion here. You claim that sunni scholars try to change the meaning, but that is only your prerogative. Why would ar Razi for example try to change the meaning to something that he never argues for. Because we know that ar Razi believes that Imamamah refers to Prophethood, so why would he change the meaning of Imam into an example? That doesn't make sense. The changing really comes from shia scholars, because we the word Imam in another verse as well: Sahih International And those who say, "Our Lord, grant us from among our wives and offspring comfort to our eyes and make us an example for the righteous." Let's see how the shia scholars deal with this: Tafsir al Qummi قال: وقرئ عند أبي عبد الله عليه السلام: { والذين يقولون ربنا هب لنا من أزواجنا وذرياتنا قرة أعين واجعلنا للمتقين إماما } فقال: قد سألوا الله عظيماً أن يجعلهم للمتقين أئمة! فقيل له: كيف هذا يابن رسول الله؟ قال: إنما أنزل الله: { الذين يقولون ربنا هب لنا من أزواجنا وذرياتنا قرة أعين واجعل لنا من المتقين إماماً } Apparently the correct recitation according to the Ahl al Bayt is واجعل لنا من المتقين إماماً "And make for us from among the pious an Imam" and not how we recite it. Tafsir at Tabarsi: القراءة: قرأ أبو عمرو وأهل الكوفة غير حفص وذريتنا والباقون ذرياتنا على الجمع وقرأ يلقون بفتح الياء والتخفيف أهل الكوفة غير حفص والباقون يُلقّون بضم الياء والتشديد وفي قراءة أهل البيت (ع) واجعل لنا من المتقين إماماً والقراءة المشهورة واجعلنا للمتقين إماماً وفي قراءة ابن عباس وابن الزبير فقد كذب الكافرون. "And in the recitation of the Ahl al Bayt 'And make for us from among the pious an Imam'". Again, this is apparently the recitation of the Ahl al Bayt, not "the recitation falsely attributed to the Ahl al Bayt" or some explanation given, no it is the qira'at Ahl al Bayt. Tafsir at Tusi وقوله { واجعلنا للمتقين إماماً } أي يسألون الله تعالى أن يجعلهم ممن يقتدى بأفعالهم الطاعات. وفي قراءة اهل البيت (ع) و { اجعل لنا من المتقين إماماً } Again, no condemnation of this utterly blasphemous allegation. Tafsir al Mizan by Tabataba'i وفي قراءة أهل البيت { واجعل لنا من المتقين إماماً }. No condemnation Tafsir al Janabadhi وفى رواية عن الصّادق (ع): قد سألوا الله عظيماً ان يجعلهم للمتّقين ائمّة فقيل له كيف هذا يا بن رسول الله (ص)؟- قال: انّما انزل الله واجعل لنا من المتّقين اماماً، وهذا ممّا أسلفنا فى اوّل الكتاب من سعة وجوه القرآن بقدر سعة مراتب الخلق، وانّ القرآن لا مانع من ان يكون نزوله بقراءاتٍ مختلفةٍ بحسب اختلاف النّاس. He apparantely says it's ok, as different readings of the Quran are not a problem. Tafsir Fayd al Kashani وقرء عنده هذه الآية فقال قد سألوا الله عظيماً ان يجعلهم للمتّقين أئمّة فقيل له كيف هذا يا ابن رسول الله قال انّما أنزل الله { واجعل لنا من المتقين إماماً }. He simply repeats al Qummi You can see the almost frantic and obsessed way in attributing and changing everything to point any verse to the Imams. Can you point me to some tafaseer who completely rejects this attribution to the Ahl al Bayt as total BS and considers it an insult to the faith and to the Ahl al Bayt. I'll be surprised if you even find one. At least they understood what accepting this verse as is would have as consequences. If this isn't playing with religion, I don't know what is. Rather it's a mockery of religion.
  12. Salam aleikum, I dont know if you can find it in english books but this narration is also present in Hurr al Amili's Wasail as Shia and in Tusi's al Istibsaar.
  13. Wa alaikum salam, I am fine thanks, hope you are well too. Sorry for the delayed response. Let's first start with this then: Tafsir at Tabari: يعنـي جل ثناؤه بقوله: { إنّـي جاعِلُكَ للنّاسِ إماماً } فقال الله: يا إبراهيـم إنـي مُصَيِّرك للناس إماماً يؤتـمّ به ويقتدي به. Allah said: " O Ibrahim, it is indeed your destiny that you will be an Imam for the people, following you and imitating you" Tafsir al Qurtubi: السابعة عشرة: قوله تعالى: { إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَاماً } الإمام. القُدْوة؛ ومنه قيل لخيط البناء: إمام، وللطريق: إمام؛ لأنه يؤم فيه للمسالك، أي يقصد. فالمعنى: جعلناك للناس إماماً يأتّمون بك في هذه الخصال، ويقتدي بك الصالحون.al Imam, a role model, and it is said for a builder's ruler: Imam, and the road: Imam, so the meaning is: I will make you an Imam for the people to imitate your qualities and the righteous will emulate you Tafsir Ibn Katheer: قال: { إِنِّى جَـٰعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا } أي: جزاء على ما فعل، كما قام بالأوامر وترك الزواجر جعله الله للناس قدوة، وإماماً يقتدى به ويحتذى حذوه. The reward for what he did, by performing what was commanded and leaving what was prohibited, Allah made him an exemplar, an Imam who is imitated. Tafsir al Jalalyn: { قَالَ } تعالى له: { إِنّى جَٰعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا } قدوة في الدين an exemplar in faith Tafsir al Shawkani: وأخرج عبد بن حميد، عن ابن عباس، { قَالَ إِنّى جَـٰعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا } يقتدى بدينك، وهديك، وسنتك They will imitate you in your faith, in your guidance and in your sunnah. Tafsir as Samarqandi: فلما وفىّ الأمر جعله الله تعالى إماماً للناس [ليقتدوا] به When he completed the command, Allah made him an Imam for the people (to imitate him) Tafsir al Baghwi: قال الله تعالىٰ: { قَالَ: إِنِّى جَـٰعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا } يقتدى بك في الخير "I will make you an Imam for the people", to imitate you with respect to goodness. Tafsir ibn Attiya: فأوحى الله إليه { إني جاعلك للناس إماماً } يأتمون بك في هذه الخصال، ويقتدي بك الصالحون. And Allah inspired to him: "I will make you an Imam for the people" to follow you in these qualities, and the righteous will imitate you. And countless countless other tafaseer. I can keep going for a while. And let's also see what the common meaning is of Imam. In Lane's Lexicon and when it comes to Arabic-English translation, this really is the only one worth considering due to its comprehensiveness and rigourousness, David Lane is quoting from several Arabic lexica what the common meaning is: For reference, S, Mgh, Msb, T, M, K refer to as-Sihah, the Mughrib, Misbah, Tahdheeb (Al Azhari), Muhkam and Kamoos respectively. And as I said earlier, I have no problem with calling it a leader, the meaning is clear, you are simply discussing semantics to avoid the issue. Even ar Razi who you quoted explains what an Imam generally means: فثبت بهذ أن اسم الإمام لمن استحق الاقتداء به في الدين وقد يسمى بذلك أيضاً من يؤتم به في الباطل And this proves that an Imam is one who is entitled to be emulated in matters of faith and it is also said for those who are followed in falsehood. It is one thing to disagree with me, it is another to misrepresent classical sunni tafaseer. Don't fool yourself, I can assure they hide their faces from you and your interpretation.
  14. Hard to tell and I am in no position to say something about that. Kitab Sulaym ibn Qays doesnt really fit later shia's or early shia's so its kind of a mystery. You do find references to it in the generation of al Kulayni and so on.
  15. The people definitely refers to all people present and future which is the usual meaning of the word without any restrictions. If there is one thing that should be clear from the verse then it should be this, it is even confirmed by the next verses: Sahih International And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers." Sahih International And [mention] when We made the House a place of return for the people and [a place of] security. And take, [O believers], from the standing place of Abraham a place of prayer. And We charged Abraham and Ishmael, [saying], "Purify My House for those who perform Tawaf and those who are staying [there] for worship and those who bow and prostrate [in prayer]." Sahih International And [mention] when Abraham said, "My Lord, make this a secure city and provide its people with fruits - whoever of them believes in Allah and the Last Day." [ Allah ] said. "And whoever disbelieves - I will grant him enjoyment for a little; then I will force him to the punishment of the Fire, and wretched is the destination." Sahih International And [mention] when Abraham was raising the foundations of the House and [with him] Ishmael, [saying], "Our Lord, accept [this] from us. Indeed You are the Hearing, the Knowing. Sahih International Our Lord, and make us Muslims [in submission] to You and from our descendants a Muslim nation [in submission] to You. And show us our rites and accept our repentance. Indeed, You are the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful. Sahih International Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from themselves who will recite to them Your verses and teach them the Book and wisdom and purify them. Indeed, You are the Exalted in Might, the Wise." Sahih International And who would be averse to the religion of Abraham except one who makes a fool of himself. And We had chosen him in this world, and indeed he, in the Hereafter, will be among the righteous. For who was the House made a place of return, his people only or all? And why do you think that of all the prophets in the Quran Ibrahim is singled out over and over again and we are ordered by Allah to "watabi'u millatu Ibrahim" ie to follow the religion of Ibrahim as? And why does Ibrahim ask for a messenger to be sent to them if an Imam is higher and better? I cant see how you can conclude anything else from this. Yes, Ibrahim as was already an example to be followed but he wasnt followed by the people. If it is said "I will make you an Imam for the people" or "I will make you a king/prophet" then it doesnt mean "I am giving you the right to lead or I am giving you the right to rule a kingdom/to receive revelation but you may die tomorrow due to a car crash, but that doesnt matter I am just giving you rights, no guarantee about what will actually happen in the future". No, that doesnt make sense and this is what I have been saying from the beginning. The right to be followed was given the moment he was a Messenger, Allah is saying and promising him that He will make people follow him, present and future generations. And there is no takeover whatsoever because its nowhere forbidden to have multiple Imams, that is your preconceived notion that there must be a takeover. He as is asking for his descendants to be rewarded with the same, that they will be followed by the people too. You still misunderstand and no, common sense doesnt dictate that, I would suggest you try to distinguish between a purpose and a cause. If I test someone for his trustworthiness and then give him a job because I need a trustworthy person to do a job then the purpose of the test is not to give him a job, the purpose of the test was to check his trustworthiness. The fact that I need a person who is trustworthy for a certain job has no relevance whatsoever with the purpose of the test. Similarly if I test someone's intelligence and then let him something do that needs intelligence doesnt mean the purpose of the test is to let him do that. Besides, if you insist that people only means his people not all, then it might be that certain requirements were needed for his people and not all. I can assure you there is no contradiction here. As a matter of fact the contradiction in saying that the purpose of Allah's test is "to see if he is worthy" and then saying that Allah already knows he is worthy but the purpose of the test was "just creating a doorway to give him this rank by Ibrahim's actions" cant be more obvious. First you attack the interpretation of being a leader by example and then you come with this. The last is exactly what I have been saying with regards to the example. Allah already knows he is worthy of being followed and already gave him the right to be followed, the test was "just a means through which people know how to follow him by his actions". Saying that the purpose is to give someone a job is different from saying that it's to check if someone is worthy for a job, it's different from saying that the purpose is to show him what is necessary for this job, it's different from saying the purpose is to show others what is necessary for a job etc., that should be clear to anyone I would say. You are just repeating, I still dont understand. But forget about my interpretation, Allah is rewarding Ibrahim with something, whatever that might be, due to his excellent behaviour. Ibrahim is asking if his descendants will be rewarded with the same but the reward will not be given to those who are wrongdoers. In what way is that related to the specifics of the reward? Second, let's say you are right and this is what Ibrahim as understood from Allah's words. You can in no way become an Imam without being tested and showing that you are worthy. So what was he asking, was he asking can You reward my descendants with the same without being tested, was he asking can you test my descendants but regardless of passing or not, just give them Imamah, or was he asking can you test my descendants and of those who pass give them Imamah? Sigh... If I ask any kid what a ra'ees and an imam is he will tell me that one is the president of a country and an the other is one who leads the prayers, that doesnt make it part of its definition. So riyasat majlis al-amn is about rule of the Security Council, a ra'ees al fareeq, the captain of a team is one who rules the other members of a team? Let's make this easier instead of going on about definitions as I was talking about what ar-Razi means anyway and not what the definition is. I couldn't care less what awlaad exactly meanswith regards to what ar Razi means, there is no way ar Razi doesnt mean descendants because he explains this. I couldn't care less what imamah or riyasa exactly means with regards to what ar Razi means, there is no way ar Razi doesn't mean prophethood because he literally says that imamah means prophethood here. I simply argue that they are not different, the examples are closer to each other than you can tell or would like to admit. You can't simply dismiss anything I say, if it is different show how. Going to battle is also a test, not running away is also a fulfillment of that test, being martyred is the reward of the test, you can just simply replace imamah by martyrdom and try to answer the same question to see where you go wrong: As for your questions, I already answered: first of all the right to be followed was already given, even if I accept it was rewarded your argument is based on the premise that what is rewarded is higher than what is granted, I disagree. Third, it would only show that a prophet who becomes an Imam is higher than a prophet who doesnt become an Imam, nothing more.
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