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In the Name of God بسم الله


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placid last won the day on June 3 2018

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  1. --- There was one more thing I wanted to share about the teaching of traditions and man-made doctrines. And it is what Paul said in Colossians 2:4 4 “Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words. 5 For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the steadfastness of your faith in Christ. 6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 FOR IN HIM DWELLS ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY, 10 AND YOU ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, who is the head of all principality and power. Not Legalism but Christ 11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands (meaning the circumcision of the heart), by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. --- The trinity was a doctrine of men, ‘according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world,' and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. --- And it says “If any man be ‘in Christ’ he is a new creature, old things have passed away, behold, all things become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17.
  2. Question 3, part 3: Quote: God is Omnipotent and Omnipresent. He's beyond everything in this temporary state of existence. A creator always knows how His creations go throughout their trials and tribulations. It doesn't make logical sense for a Creator to step down and join alongside His creations to go through the same trials and tribulations He himself designed if He already knows and understands what they go through. Response: --- You are right, “It doesn't make logical sense for a Creator to step down and join alongside His creations to go through the same trials and tribulations He himself designed if He already knows and understands what they go through.” --- But God didn’t do that. --- In seeing that the Old Covenant failed because people were ungodly, He left the Jews without a further prophecy for about 400 years from the end of Malachi, until John the Baptist and Jesus were born. This ushered in a New Covenant where people would be saved by believing the Gospel Message, the ‘Good News’ of Salvation through believing in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. In reading the Quran I don’t find any other Savior and Lord, or plan of salvation for Muslims than what is given in the New Covenant. This is all I will add, so we are ready to debate, when you have the time. --- I didn’t finish with the subject in Surah 5:48, so I can continue with that.
  3. Hi ZethaPonderer Question 3 part 2 To examine again the origin of ‘dividing God into three,’ it was a mixture of wrong theology and then Satan using the opposing forces to distort the truth. At the time of Emperor Constantine there were some things which happened that caused him to think better of the Christians after years of Roman persecution. --- History says also that his mother had become a Christian. At the same time there was the disagreement among the Church leaders and it was because Arian said, “There was a time when Christ was not.” --- This was saying that Christ was a ‘created being,’ --- which was right. In the Gospels Christ is called the Son of Man. --- But the opposing voices of the Alexanedrians said ‘Jesus Christ’ was from the beginning with God. --- It was wrong, wrong, wrong, that they mentioned Jesus as being from the beginning, but they recorded this in the doctrine, --- that ‘Jesus was of the same substance as God.’ --- Arian was talking about the person of Christ, not Jesus, but when Constantine convened the meeting in 325 AD, his desire was to settle the dispute in his jurisdiction, he did not care what the Scripture said, but he went with the majority. --- What does the Scripture say about Jesus who was born on Earth of the Virgin Mary? Hebrews 2:9 “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.” --- Jesus had to be born in a flesh and blood body to be the sacrifice for sin, by shedding blood. --- The blood body was an offense to God. “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.” --- There are no blood bodies among spiritual bodies in heaven. --- Jesus was born on earth, lived on earth, and died on earth. --- The other thing that was wrong with their faulty doctrine is that they left out both the Word, and Christ, who were two levels of Spiritual Beings between God and Jesus. ---But they were duped into teaching that Jesus and God were on the same level, and Christians later on, began to teach that Jesus was God, even as many do today. --- It is wrong, wrong, wrong. --- (But learners don’t study enough Scripture to know what it says.) --- Also in the meeting in 325, they did not include the Holy Spirit as the ‘third’ so there wasn’t any trinity. --- It was at ‘the Council of Constantinople in 381 (some 56 years later that they added: “And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets . . .” --- This is another strange statement, because if the Father is the first generation, the Son is the second generation and the Holy Spirit, proceeding from the Father is a later addition as well. --- But the Holy Spirit of life had to have been with God in the beginning, or there wouldn’t have been life. --- And there is nowhere in Scripture where the Holy Spirit is to be worshipped. The Catholic Church began to teach their doctrines, and chose new candidates as priests, and wanted them to take an oath of ‘celibacy’ --- These new candidates were to be devoted to God to the point that they would not have a desire for women, which is totally against nature. --- So they built Monasteries as ‘places of learning’ for these candidates, and they lived together, men with men (which creates familiarity), with the older teaching the younger the new doctrines, that they would teach in their Churches. It says in Surah 57:27 “Then WE caused Our Messengers to follow in their (the prophets’) footsteps; and WE caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow them, and WE gave him the Gospel. And WE put compassion and mercy in the hearts of those who followed him. --- And monasticism they invented - WE did not prescribe it for them for the seeking of ALLAH's pleasure; but they observed it not as it should be observed. Yet WE gave those of them, who believed, their due reward, but many of them are rebellious. Now I ask you, what kind of thinking person could say that Jesus who was born in the flesh was of ‘the same substance as God’? --- You see, the whole thing started out as a lie, and the Emperor wanted to solve his political problem by calling a meeting and suggesting they form a new Church that would embrace them all, where they could agree that Jesus and God were ‘on the same level.’ --- Not all of the compromising ministered agreed to begin with, but when the Roman Emperor had stopped the persecution of Christians with the organizing of a new Church, though he took the name ‘Christian’ out of it by calling it the Roman Catholic (universal) Church, they pretty well agreed. Following this were the “Dark Ages” when very little Scripture was taught because the Roman Church became more political, and the Evangelicals had to go underground from then till the Reformation by Martin Luther in the 1500’s.
  4. Hi ZethaPonderer Question 3 Quote: 3. Finally for my last question on top of my doubts, is the fact that if it is established in the Old Testament that The God of Abraham is One and Only, then why would He in the NT feel the need to split Himself into 3 entities? Many Christians would justify that because God is All Powerful, there is an emotional sentiment that God wants to understand How His Creations truly live their lives in such a Temporal State of Being. Hence, he brought Himself down into a state of 3 entities where He can truly feel and interact with Humanity through Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) given the model that The One and Only God is also The Son. Response: --- You have made an interesting analysis from the teaching of the trinity, which we have analyzed already to say that it was a ‘doctrine of men.’ Quote: “It is established in the Old Testament that The God of Abraham is One and Only.” --- Yes, we established that Almighty God is One, and is at the top of the three cornered figure, as He is above everything that He created. However, God has no image or likeness to compare to. --- Let’s imagine that God is greater than our sun that He created. --- Then He could never approach Earth as His approaching Presence would burn us to a crisp. --- We can accept the fact that Almighty God has never left His heaven, but had ‘delegated’ those of His creation that He has chosen for His purpose. The idea of Jesus being God, started with the fact that most people think that Jesus Christ is one person, rather than the proof from Scripture that Jesus was born on Earth from the Virgin Mary and, as it says in Luke 1:35 “That Holy One to be born will be ‘called’ the Son of God.” --- And as I explained before, Christ came down from heaven to indwell the body of Jesus, as it says in Hebrews 10:5 ‘A body You (God) have prepared for Me (Christ),’ --- And the body was the physical body of Jesus who had blood in His veins that could be shed. ---So it was Jesus who was seen, but it was Christ who taught the Gospel through Him. --- They went to the cross together, and Jesus died, and shed the blood in the body that God had prepared for Christ. ---- And Christ, being an eternal Spiritual Being, could not die; But it says this of Him in 1 Peter 3:18 “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.” --- (Can you believe this), --- that in the flood there were believers who were ‘disobedient,’ so they drowned in the water, and Satan had the power over death, so these unbelievers were held in this ‘prison of death’ until Christ went through the experience of death in the body of Jesus, and went to confront Satan --- to ‘free the captives,’ --- to claim those who did not deserve to be there, --- because Christ had conquered death, as it says in 1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 55 “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. --- So far I am adding information that proves that it was Christ who came to Earth to bring about God’s redemption of believers, as it said in 2 Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.” And this verse in John 3:17 “For God did not send His Son (Christ) into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”
  5. To finalize the subject of the atonement. In Maulana’s commentary on verses 2:72-73, he says. Quote: The very indefiniteness of the incident is an indication that it refers to some well-known event in history, and as almost all incidents of the stubbornness of the Jewish nation prior to the time of Jesus have been mentioned, it becomes almost certain that this incident refers to Jesus himself, as it was with respect to his death that disagreement took place. Quote: a. The construction of the phrase, i˙rib∂-hu bi-ba‘˙i-hå, is rather difficult. --- It means striking as well as likening. --- b. This was really a case of giving life to the dead, for Jesus Christ was dead to all appearance. Those actually dead do not return to life in this world. --- Notice that Shakir says, “Strike the (dead body) with part of the (Sacrificed cow).” --- This would be impossible because the sacrificed cow was in the OT in the time of Moses, and Jesus died on the cross about AD 33. --- So in the sense that Maulana gives, Sher Ali says, ‘Compare this incident with some other similar ones,' --- meaning, ‘Compare this sacrifice of the dead body of Jesus as 'an atonement for sin,' to the sacrifice of the dead heifer, which was reduced to ashes, as ‘an atonement for sin’ for the people. The difference was that when the ashes of the heifer ran out, they had to be replaced by the death of another perfect animal to provide more ashes It explains the final sacrifice in Hebrews 9:13 "For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance." --- The other thing that needs to be explained to understand the final sacrifice, is that Christ coming down from heaven as a spiritual being, could not be a sacrifice for sin. He did not have a body that could shed blood, so there had to be one born on earth with a flesh and blood body for Christ to ‘indwell and live through’ that would shed His blood for the sin of the world. This was Jesus, who was born on earth, --- and this is what it says in Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when He (Christ) came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me. 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure. 7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come— In the volume of the book it is written of Me— To do Your will, O God.’ ” 8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first (the Old Testament Law) that He may establish the second (a New Covenant by faith). 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. --- While the OT sacrifices were, an ‘animal’ that had to die for a ‘person’ to be forgiven, --- or in the case of the heifer whose ‘ashes’ were used to ‘purify many,’ until they were used up, and another perfect heifer had to be chosen to replace the ashes. --- And to end all sacrifices, Jesus Christ was sacrificed once for the sins of the world, but only those who accept that sacrifice on their behalf, will benefit from it. --- And it is by Faith that we enter the New Covenant to be identified with Abraham, as it says in Galatians 3:6 “Just as Abraham ‘believed God,’ and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
  6. To continue from above. The animal sacrifices through the OT were to maintain the level of holiness that God required, and the ‘sacrifice’ was to be made by the people that sinned and they would bring a spotless lamb or a calf that they had raised, or bought, to give in exchange for their sin. --- It cost them something so it was a means of bringing them to their knees before God to confess their sins. --- And the symbolism was this, that the priest would kill the animal and drain its blood. So the innocent animal being drained of blood represented the sinless body without blood, and it would be a ‘substitute’ for the sinful man. God would accept the pure innocent body as ‘atonement’ for the man’s sin. --- There were many sacrifices of animals for the congregation too, where many animals would be killed and the blood drained out before being offered on behalf of the people, but the meat was not wasted. It would be roasted and eaten by the priests and servants in the temple, and if there was a surplus it was perhaps shared with the poor. --- There were some ‘whole burnt offerings,’ --- And then this special sacrifice of the burning of the ‘red heifer,’ and saving the ashes to sprinkle on the unclean to purify them If we go back to the sacrifice in Surah 2:71 "He says: A heifer not trained to till the soil or water the fields; sound and without blemish." They said: "Now hast thou brought the truth." Then they offered her in sacrifice, but not with good-will. And this verse is followed by related verses which are from the different translators. Kalifa 2:72 You had killed a soul, then disputed among yourselves. GOD was to expose what you tried to conceal. 73 We said, "Strike (the victim) with part (of the heifer)." That is when GOD brought the victim back to life, and showed you His signs, that you may understand. Pickthall And (remember) when ye slew a man and disagreed concerning it and Allah brought forth that which ye were hiding. 73 And We said: Smite him with some of it. Thus Allah bringeth the dead to life and showeth you His portents so that ye may understand. Shakir 2:72 And when you killed a man, then you disagreed with respect to that, and Allah was to bring forth that which you were going to hide. 73 So We said: Strike the (dead body) with part of the (Sacrificed cow), thus Allah brings the dead to life, and He shows you His signs so that you may understand. Yusuf Ali 2;72 Remember ye slew a man and fell into a dispute among yourselves as to the crime: But God was to bring forth what ye did hide. 73 So We said: "Strike the (body) with a piece of the (heifer)." Thus God bringeth the dead to life and showeth you His Signs: Perchance ye may understand. Sher Ali 2:72 And remember the time when you killed a person and differed among yourselves about it, and ALLAH, would bring to light what you were hiding. 73 Then WE said, `Compare this incident with some other similar ones' and you will discover the truth. Thus does ALLAH give life to the dead and show you HIS Signs that you may understand. --- I will continue later with this comparison.
  7. Hi Ashvazdanghe, While you say God has no son, at the same time God can call anyone a son, because GOD IS ONE, but God is the Creator so all things came from Him. --- And we who serve Him are called sons of God, as in Matthew 5:9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.” And again in Romans 8:14 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”
  8. The Children of Israel were disobedient, and even while Moses was getting the Ten Commandments from God, they grew impatient and gathered their gold to make the image of a calf for them to worship. And there is a Surah named ‘The Heifer,’ which is related to a particular sacrifice in the OT. First let’s see what it says in the Quran, Surah 2:67 And remember Moses said to his people: "God commands that ye sacrifice a heifer." They said: "Makest thou a laughing-stock of us?" He said: "God save me from being an ignorant (fool)!" 68 They said: "Beseech on our behalf Thy Lord to make plain to us what (heifer) it is!" He said; "He says: The heifer should be neither too old nor too young, but of middling age. Now do what ye are commanded!" 69 They said: "Beseech on our behalf Thy Lord to make plain to us Her colour." He said: "He says: A fawn-coloured heifer, pure and rich in tone, the admiration of beholders!" 70 They said: "Beseech on our behalf Thy Lord to make plain to us what she is: To us are all heifers alike: We wish indeed for guidance, if God wills." 71 He said: "He says: A heifer not trained to till the soil or water the fields; sound and without blemish." They said: "Now hast thou brought the truth." Then they offered her in sacrifice, but not with good-will. --- So it asked for a heifer that was not used for working in the field, and not yet mature to be classed as a cow. And one sound and without blemish. Brilliant in color (fawn colored or perhaps reddish). And this is written in Numbers 19:1 Now the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, 2 “This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord has commanded, saying: ‘Speak to the children of Israel, that they bring you a red heifer without blemish, in which there is no defect and on which a yoke has never come. 3 You shall give it to Eleazar the priest, that he may take it outside the camp, and it shall be slaughtered before him; 5 Then the heifer shall be burned in his sight: its hide, its flesh, its blood, and its offal shall be burned. 6 And the priest shall take cedar wood and hyssop and scarlet, and cast them into the midst of the fire burning the heifer. 7 Then the priest shall wash his clothes, he shall bathe in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp; the priest shall be unclean until evening. 8 And the one who burns it shall wash his clothes in water, bathe in water, and shall be unclean until evening. 9 Then a man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and store them outside the camp in a clean place; and they shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for the water of purification; it is for purifying from sin. 10 And the one who gathers the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until evening. It shall be a statute forever to the children of Israel and to the stranger who dwells among them. 14 ‘This is the law when a man dies in a tent: All who come into the tent and all who are in the tent shall be unclean seven days; 15 and every open vessel, which has no cover fastened on it, is unclean. 16 Whoever in the open field touches one who is slain by a sword or who has died, or a bone of a man, or a grave, shall be unclean seven days. 17 ‘And for an unclean person they shall take some of the ashes of the heifer burnt for purification from sin, and running water shall be put on them in a vessel. 18 A clean person shall take hyssop and dip it in the water, sprinkle it on the tent, on all the vessels, on the persons who were there, or on the one who touched a bone, the slain, the dead, or a grave. 21 It shall be a perpetual statute for them. He who sprinkles the water of purification shall wash his clothes; and he who touches the water of purification shall be unclean until evening. --- This was a means of purifying the unclean. --- However, the ashes would eventually be used up and they would have to find another red heifer, to provide more ashes --- There is more to this so I will continue later.
  9. Hi Strong, Do you not agree that Adam was created by God? Therefore it is right to say that 'Adam was --- of God,' is it not? And as Luke included him in the Genealogy from Adam to Jesus, it was okay to say that Adam was the son of God, identifying Adam after the fall, when he was human and had children, was it not?
  10. Hi, I understand being too busy with life to concentrate on secondary things, --- but I thank you, because that allows me to finish responding to your questions, before we debate. To continue in my Response: --- The need for a blood sacrifice was an atonement for sin, but what did that mean? Why does it say in Hebrews 9:22 “And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.” --- And it goes on to say: 23 “Therefore it was necessary that the copies (on earth) of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation." --- But why did God order a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of Sin? --- God created Adam in holiness, and without sin. --- When sin came in, Adam had to be removed from the Holiness of God, and the Holy Spirit had to be withdrawn; --- the alternative was to give Adam a body like the animals, which would age and die, producing more ‘after their kind. --- So the blood body was an offence to God, --- neither could the blood body approach God to appeal his own case, --- “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.” 1 Corinthians 15:50. --- In the same chapter it says in 21 “For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all (believers) shall be made alive.” --- So the flesh and blood body which we inherited from Adam is a body of sin, disease, and corruption. As Adam died spiritually, and eventually died physically, we are sure to die physically, as it says above, “And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,” --- So Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3:3 “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again (born spiritually), he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of ‘water and the Spirit,’ he cannot 'enter' the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” --- So the New Covenant is based on ‘Faith in God, and obedient to the teachings of Christ,’ which involves being ‘born again’ by the Holy Spirit, that had to be withdrawn from Adam, because of sin. More later.
  11. Hi ZethaPonderer, To continue from question 2 with what happened to Adam and Eve, that caused them to be put out of the Garden. As I said, their ‘life support system’ was the Holy Spirit. --- God had said, “In the day that you eat of the forbidden fruit, you shall surely die.” The Holy Spirit could not remain in their bodies after sin came in, as holiness cannot be compromised, or it is not holiness. --- So God had two alternatives. He could annihilate Adam and Eve as a failed experiment, thus admitting that Satan defeated His plan of having an order of angels who continued to love God and dwell in ‘holiness’ by their choice, and would be destined for ‘eternal life.’ --- So Adam and Eve had the chance from the position of ‘good,’ to continue therein, but they failed. --- The second alternative was to give Adam and Eve a changed body which was already created for animals, where the life support system was the circulatory system of blood vessels in harmony with breathing air, both in and out. --- So they were given flesh and blood bodies like the animals had, but there had to be many changes. --- The spiritual body they had was lightweight, with no pressure within. The perfect food would give the perfect water content to sustain their life. --- But when the Holy Spirit had to be withdrawn, and the body changed, it needed layers of skin, (or skins), to maintain the new blood pressure and water pressure within the body as a sealed unit. It says in 3:21 Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin (coats or layers of skin), and clothed them. --- They would die Spiritually but would be sustained physically by being like the animals with a life support system of circulatory blood, which would be sustained by the intake of oxygen from the air. --- When the transformation was made and their bodies became heavy from the intake of water and the food of what grew on the ground, because it said in 3:23 “Therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.” --- Now they lived among the animals and ate similar food, and because the Holy Spirit was withdrawn, the aging and dying process set in, so they had the same reproductive organs as the animals, to ‘produce after their kind.’ Adam and Eve repented and I believe were obedient to God, but because they were now in a flesh and blood body, they were cut off from heaven spiritually, because they had ‘died spiritually.’ --- So their children and grandchildren each had to account for themselves, whether to follow God by way of repentance and obedience, or follow their own way, as Cain did in murdering his brother Abel. For the first period the plan of salvation was by 'faith in God and obedience to conscience,' which is our ‘God awareness’ within. --- After much failure by the people, God chose Moses to bring the people who were captives in Egypt back to the land that he had promised to Abraham as their inheritance. --- And God gave Moses the Law for them to live by. --- So Salvation was by 'faith in God and obedience to the Law.' --- This again had its failures because the program of sacrificing pure animals on behalf of sinful men was to show their righteousness. --- The Priests would sacrifice the animal and the person’s sin was atoned for. --- However, as time went on in the Book of Malachi, the priests were offering sick and lame animals instead of the firslings of the flock. --- So there was need for a New Covenant. --- So I will continue with this to explain the ‘blood sacrifice.’
  12. Hi Hasanhh, Quote: son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. --- This depends on your chosen translation. The Douay-Rheims has Adam who was of God. Response: --- There were generations in heaven as father and son, and it would be proper to say that Adam was ‘of God,’ because there were no blood bodies in heaven so there could be no physical birth, but Adam was created as a body, and then ‘breathed into, the breath of life’ by the Holy Spirit. Genesis 2:7 “ And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.” Second Quote: “Then the devil took him” --- l have wondered, don't you chr!stians find this problematic? Response: --- I suppose you are referring to this? 'Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple,' --- They were in the wilderness, and the devil came to Jesus and posed these temptations. --- I don’t believe they went anyplace, but the devil is able to bring images to mind referring to the temptation. Many people have ‘day dreams’ where they can imagine being in a 'comfort zone,' much more pleasant than the 'reality' they are in. --- Satan can influence thoughts, and he somehow did that with Jesus, so that Jesus answered him accordingly. --- You can also say. ‘Then the devil took him,’ is a ‘figure of speech,' like other figures of speech, which can be found often, including in the Quran. --- The end result was that when the devil tempted Jesus, the answer each time was from ‘the word of God.’ --- I have read different testimonies of Muslims who have seen a vision, or ‘had a visitation’ of Jesus, and came to believe and trust in Him. --- Were these real?
  13. Question 2, Part 5 Quote: He (Adam) had the first experience of a Human Being. So why be so hard on Adam Christians? No respect and just borderline unfair. Response: --- Considering this from the natural, Satan enticed Eve first. --- Had Satan said to Adam, “Has God really said?” --- Adam might have said, “Let’s ask Him.” --- And God would have affirmed that ‘the tree of knowledge of good and evil’ was not food for them. But Satan spoke to Eve first, --- the weaker link, and suggested that God was holding back something good from them. Notice again this verse, 3:6 “So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.” --- The Apostle John wrote these words in 1 John 2:15 “Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.” Notice Eve saw that it was ‘good for food,’ (the desire of the flesh), --- that it was ‘pleasant to the eyes,’ (a delight to the eyes), --- and ‘desirable to make one wise’, (the desire to have more wisdom or knowledge). --- God had said ‘No,’ but Eve didn’t ask again because she was first curious, then enticed, then reasoned that it was good for food, pleasant to look at, and would give the knowledge of not only good, but the understanding of good and evil. --- So she took it. Notice that what John said, are the temptations that Satan still uses are they not? The ‘lust of the flesh,’ --- ‘the lust of the eyes,’ --- and ‘the pride of life,’ (the desire for things beyond what others have of fashions and passions to gratify ones own desires). --- Yes Satan still entraps men and women with these temptations. And the last of the verse says, --- “The world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.” --- That is what happened, had Adam and Eve followed the ‘will of God’ in obedience they would have lived forever in the state of bliss. How was Jesus tempted in the wilderness? Mathew records this in 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward He was hungry. 3 Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.” 4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ” 5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: ‘He shall give His angels charge over you,’ and, ‘In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’ ” 7 Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’ ” 8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ” 11 Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him. --- What were the temptations --- 1, “If you are hungry command these stones to be made bread,” --- the desire of the flesh, food. 2, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down” from the pinnacle of the temple, to get immediate recognition in Jerusalem, --- A kind of desire of the eyes. --- And the devil even uses Scripture. 3, Satan showed Him the kingdoms of the world and said, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.” --- That would certainly appeal to the ‘pride of life,’ would it not? --- But Jesus answered again with the Scripture, “You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.” --- And James says in 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. 14 Each one is tempted when he is ‘drawn away’ by his own desires and ‘enticed.’ 15 When desire and enticement join together (they make a bad marriage), they conceive and give birth to (the offspring of) sin; and sin, when it is full grown (fully developed) brings forth death. --- “The wages of sin is death.” --- This is how temptation works to take our thoughts away from God. --- If Eve would have had the presence of mind to say, “But God has said, we must not eat of it.” --- It might have been different.
  14. Question 2 part 4: Quote: The concept of the Original Sin doesn't make sense given that Christians hold a model to believe that Prophets make mistakes and sins, Adam's "Original Sin" shouldn't be considered a Sin based on the Abrahamic Religious Fact that he is The First Human Being Ever alongside Eve. It should be considered "The Original Mistake" or "The Original Misunderstanding". He didn't know he was being deceived by Satan when he ate the Forbidden Fruit nor did he have the knowledge or even experienced the concept of what Evil is. Response: --- The sin of Adam is called the ‘original sin,’ but it was just the first sin for Adam and Eve. They were given free will along with all of the provisions for life eternal, in harmony with God. --- They were not without ‘knowledge and instruction’ since God said, “You may eat of every tree in the Garden EXCEPT the tree of ‘knowledge of good and evil.’" --- Satan enticed Eve. And the scripture says in Genesis 3:6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings. 8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. --- As I said, they lost their Shekinah glory that had covered them and it faded because of their sin. I will explain later why the Holy Spirit could not remain in them, after they were disobedient to God. --- But you mention this. Quote: Unlike the Angels in Judeo-Christian scriptures who obviously came into creation way before Adam and already have experience and knowledge with the concept of Evil. Response: --- You are right. There is an account given of “Original sin” in an order of angels called the Cherubim, and it is revealed in interwoven prophecies. The explanation is given in The Zondervan Bible Dictionary: Quote: “God is love” and God is holy. Because love is His predominating characteristic, God desired to surround His throne with creatures who He might love, and by whom He might be loved. Because of His holiness, these creatures must also be holy; and by logical necessity love and holiness cannot be forced. Compulsory love or holiness would not be either love or holiness, and could not satisfy an all-wise Creator. Therefore these loving and holy creatures must be endowed with the ability to choose whether “to glorify God and enjoy Him forever,” or to reject Him and suffer the consequences.” --- End of quote. --- While the story of the ‘beginning of sin and Satan’ is nowhere related explicitly, these interwoven Scriptures give the account that describes the origin. Ezekiel 28:12-17 is addressed to the ‘prince of Tyre,’ and Isaiah 14:12-15 is addressed to the ‘king of Babylon,’ but in each case the prophet uses language which could not truly and literally refer to any mere man. Ezekiel 28:12 Thus says the Lord God, “You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering. 14 You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you. You were on the holy mountain of God; you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you." --- This speaks of the special order of angels called Cherubim, who were given the ability to make choices. This one had gained prominence and attained the level of, "The Anointed Cherub." --- Then this statement, "You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you."--- This tells us that God did not create sin. --- But sin developed in a created being. --- While most angels were holy, and were obedient to God, this order of angels had the ability to choose, --- whether to 'love God and glorify Him forever,' --- or to 'be disobedient to God, and suffer the consequences.' 17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty. You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor." --- So the first sin in that heavenly realm was 'pride.' --- The other interwoven prophecy was directed to the King of Babylon, where again it goes beyond speaking of a mere man, in Isaiah 14: 12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! --- (How far you have fallen. --- And the reason?) 13 For you have said in your heart, ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’ 15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit." --- So the first sin in this heavenly realm was 'pride' and the second sin was 'self-exaltation.'
  15. Question 2 Part 3: Quote: Who cares if Adam sinned, he's still the first Human Being and makes more logical and emotionally touching sense to be considered as The True Son of God compared to Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام). Response: --- God said to Adam, that they were to be obedient to His instructions and not to eat the forbidden fruit, or they would die. The voice of Satan as a serpent in a tree spoke to Eve in Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ” 4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” --- This was a partial truth, because as soon as they partook of the forbidden fruit, they knew they had been disobedient to God and they felt ‘guilt’ which they had not known before. --- In their perfect environment they knew only ‘good.’ --- They had no knowledge of ‘evil’ until they entered into it by disobedience to God. --- This is how God deals with us. He has given us everything we need for a good life in relationship to Himself, but if we choose to go our own way, we can do that, and suffer the consequences. 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings. --- What had happened? --- In their obedience and holiness they were covered with the ‘glory of God,’ called the ‘Shekinah glory’ as we sometimes picture angels robed in white. --- As soon as they obeyed the voice of Satan, they realized that they had sinned against God and the Holy Spirit, and their glory began to fade, --- ‘The Holy Spirit could not remain in an unholy body,’ and they realized they were naked or ‘unclothed’ any more in the Shekinah glory of the righteous, so they tried to hide themselves from the presence of God. We find this in Surah 7:19 "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish: but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression." 20 Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame (the suggestion of things they didn't know) that was hidden from them (before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever." 21 And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser. 22 So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?" 23 They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost." 24 (God) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood,- for a time." 25 He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)." 26 O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness,- that is the best. Such are among the Signs of God, that they may receive admonition! 27 O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.
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