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In the Name of God بسم الله

Abu-Jafar Herz

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Everything posted by Abu-Jafar Herz

  1. Salam. Posting Sunni tafseer isn't an argument. If you want to debate with a Shia you cannot just say : "Well my book says this." I already said to you that Sunnis will try to change the meaning of imam and its context. Yes an imam is someone who is imitated and followed. But this doesn't mean that imam= example. Imams means leader. If you want to say that imam can only mean an exemplar without it's true essential meaning of being a "leader," then no dictionary says that. If you want to say that imam means a leader who is followed and imitated then no Shia will ever disagree with you. Regarding the above qoute, this is exactly what Shia also say imam means. Your above quote proves my point. An imam is someone who is followed and imitated. Where's the point of contention here? Again, the above doesn't disagree with us at all when it comes to the linguistics of the word imam. Al Qurtubi is saying that the word imam means leader but that the intended meaning (the meaning that Sunnis hold) is that it means a person who is imitated by his qualities. The lexicon you posted doesn't agree with you. He's saying that the word imam means imitation of a leader. He isn't saying that the word means "just example." You're being dishonest with immature tactics trying to separate the meaning of leader from the word imam. Who doesn't know what the word imam means? I mean honestly have Sunnis gone to the point where they'll even try to change the meaning of the word imam? Lastly, you completely ignored my other post. If the word Imam means example then why did Ibrahim [as] ask for his imamah to be included in his bloodline? This is exactly how imamah works. It is a pact which is given within a bloodline or successor. Allah then says his imamah doesn't go to tyrants (zalium). The context points to a leader who is followed and imitated, not just "oh hes a good example for inspiration." You're playing with religion.
  2. @GreatChineseFall Once you accept that the word "imam" here means leader, we'll continue with the rest of the argument.
  3. @GreatChineseFall Asalamu alaikum, I hope you're doing well. Nowhere in the verse does it say that Ibrahim [as] will be an Imam or ruling leader for all generations. You're making up your own Arabic rules where I assure you they don't exist. This is your own interpretation. You're assuming that the phrase "lillnas (for the people) includes everyone in existence in the future, and you're assuming that imam here means "example," and then from these assumptions you're using other verses to point to your false foundation while drawing false unsupported conclusions. You first must prove that imam here means example. The following verses you used do not change the common meaning of what imam is into example. Any person on the street when asked what "imam" is they'll tell you it means leader. If I were to see a prophet asked Allah for imamah, and to make his descendants imams I would not say that he's asking to be an "example," and that he's asking for his descendants to be "examples." But rather, he's asking for riyaasa for him and his descendants, this what "3hd" means. It is a pact that gives someone an official position, or a covenant/agreement in any matter. The verses that say that the house of Mecca will be a place of security and a place of payer where Ibrahim [as] prayed, saying that prophets and messengers will be sent in his line, and saying that we must follow the religion of Ibrahim [as] does not change the meaning of imam into example. I could very well say that this means an imam of authority and the Qur'an continues listing out the religion of the hanafiya which Ibrahim [as] established systematically as an imam for his people. We also know for a fact that the word imam here does not mean example because Ibrahim [as] is asking Allah to make his descendants imams. If this is the case, and the word imam here means example, then your nonsensical interpretation would necessitate that Ibrahim [as] is really asking Allah to make his descendants "examples." However, we know this is non-sense because we see that Allah calls this imamah a "pact." So essentially this is a divine pact of imamah. If you want to say that this is a "divine pact of being an example," then you can believe so but I'm sure even your own Sunni comrades would hide their faces from you. The verse simply doesn't support your interpretation. Its far-fetched and forced. Let's look at the verse again carefully, step by step, and draw some conclusions.. We see the first part : { ٱبْتَلَىٰ إِبْرٰهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَـٰتٍ } (And when Ibrahim's lord tested (Ibtala) him with commands) The word Ibtala here has a very precise definition which the scholars of tafseer always highlight. The word here means to test someone to see if they have certain attributes for X thing, or to ready the person for X thing. And this is exactly what Zamakhshari who is a grammarian in tafseer says: ما يريد الله، وما يشتهيه العبد، كأنه يمتحنه ما يكون منه حتى يجازيه على حسب ذلك Translation: What Allah wishes, and what the servant desires, its as if Allah is testing him to see what is from him (the servant) and rewards him based upon that. End Translation. Dictionary : اِبْتَلَى ( اسم ) : اِخْتَبَرَ 1 to examine for suitability or authenticity Ibtala is also related to the word balaa2, calamity. I.E. they are afflicted, to the test, put under stress to see if they have what it takes,etc. This is the meaning of the word. And this is why Allah uses Ibtala when Ibrahim [as] was tested with Ishmail [as]. So the testing of Ibrahim [as] with his son Ishmael was in order to see if he was suitable for imamah. So this was indeed the purpose all along. As for the word "imam" here meaning example, then I already explained above why this is wrong and far-fetched. Lets look at the remaining of the verse. فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَاماً قَالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِي قَالَ لاَ يَنَالُ عَهْدِي ٱلظَّالِمِينَ (So he completed them. and Allah said: I am making you an imam over the people. Then Ibrahim said: and from my descendants? Then Allah said: my pact does not include the wrong doers.) So we see that because Ibrahim [as] passed the test of will, he was made into an imam. Ibrahim [as] then asks Allah to include this imamah among his decedents. Allah then responds by saying that this is a divine pact that doesn't include the wrong doers. So we draw the following conclusions 1- If Imam here means example why didn't Allah use the word for example? 2- The definition of imamah in the dictionaries means leadership, not an example. 3- Allah [swt] was testing Abraham [as] to see if he could handle this position.This tells us that this is not just "being an example for generations," but actually being a leader/Imam while alive. 4- This imamah is a divine pact. When the term "3hd" is used in this context it is a covenant of an official position, and this falls inline with imam being an authority/leader. 5- This divine pact of imamah will be given to the people who Allah chooses, and those who are tyrants (zaalimun) shall not have it. This falls inline with imamah being within a bloodline. This verse doesn't support your interpretation at all.
  4. Actually it does, look at what you quoted... The very quote you quoted says to deny the bodily resurrection is kufr. You also said this here : If the immaterial aspect of our body is the only thing that will transcend, then what about the body? What about its resurrection? I'm not making takfeer on anyone, but this is one of the reasons why the philosophers were debated against and made takfeer against. The two mains reasons were the eternal past of the universe and the non-bodily resurrection. Both points are their famous positions.
  5. Salam bro, I hope you're doing well. Maybe he didn't understand the implication of what he said, or maybe he typed in error. But what he said is indeed the platonic understanding of souls leaving the body into heaven. This is what he said : He said that only our immaterial aspect will only transcend, and this is wrong. The resurrection is not immaterial it is physical. To suggest that only our immaterial souls go to heaven without the body is to suggest a platonic heretical/philosopher/Sufi version of the resurrection similar to what our scholars and imams [as] wrote against. This is neo-Platonism. Regarding the number of the hour al ayn then it isn't in the Qur'an, nor did I say that this number was in the Qur'an bro. I said that hour al ayn is mentioned in the Qur'an and it isn't metaphorical.
  6. btw, I'm not saying that you're denying anything or that you're going into kufr. Please don't misunderstand. I'm simply telling you dear brother what the principles of our religion which aren't allowed to be denied without invalidating Islam. Do you want me to lie to you and tell you thats its ok believe what you want?
  7. I never made takfir on you. I said what our Imams [as] have said. Anyone who denies the body's resurrection is not a Muslim anymore. Its clearly spelled out in the Qur'an clear as day. Our bodies are resurrected. Saying that we are simply souls which leave the body and go to heaven, or that only our souls will be resurrected (which by the way isn't even resurrection) without a bodily resurrection is denying the resurrection which is denying one of the usul of Islam.
  8. What you just described above is platonic has absolutely nothing to do with our religion. Our souls do not transcend to heaven without a body, this is classic platonic understanding of heaven and is heretical. We believe in Islam that when we die, we are resurrected both soul and body. This new body will be in its 30s, and will not be corruptible nor decay. With this body we eat, we drink, we have relations with our wives,etc. This is what Islam has taught us. No offense bro, but If you want to believe in the hippie platonic metaphysical floating bodies, no sexual relations or eating, 72 white grapes not 72 wives sufi version of heaven, then you can. The Qur'an is very clear. Our resurrection is physical. Its actually considered kufr to deny it.
  9. I'm not talking about "platonic love." You misunderstood the term I used. By you asking me to back up what I said regarding eating, drinking,etc, I take it that you're describing a heretical platonic heaven where we aren't physical bodies but rather metaphysical floating spirits. We eat in heaven, this is in the Qur'an. We have a relationship with our wives in heaven that is sexual in nature. This is in the Qur'an. We talk in heaven. We also recline and drink. Which part do you want me to back up with Islamic resources?
  10. There will be desire for your wife in paradise in the sexual form. Our paradise is also physical. In paradise we eat, we drink, we walk around, we recline, we have relations with our wife, we talk and we hear things,etc. Please don't try to change the Qur'an and Sunnah for a boring, bland, uninteresting platonic heaven where we are just "floating bodies."
  11. If a woman went to paradise and asked Allah for her husband to be for her alone, then he will be for her alone. Someone may say that a contradiction may arise when the husband wants multiple and a female wants only him to be for her, then they should know that a conflict of interest does not exist in paradise. Whatever the husband wants the wife will want, and whatever the wife will want the husband will want. The details of paradise are not fully clear, but in paradise you will get whatever you desire even if your wish is for your husband to be yours alone. Everything will fall into place once we're there.
  12. You're stretching the verse and putting your own interpretation on it. What you're saying makes absolutely no sense. You're claiming that the word "imam" here means "example." You're also objecting to the fact that Ibrahim [as] cannot be an imam of authority for the later generations. As for your objection, then nowhere in this verse does it say that Allah is making Ibrahim [as] an Imam for all generations. In fact, we see at the bottom of the verse that Ibrahim [as] is asking for his descendants to take over this imamah. So your objection is wrong and stems from a misunderstanding of the verse. As for your claim that the word "imam" here means "example," then this is also proven wrong by a number of proofs. Firstly, messengers and prophets are already examples to be followed. To say that Ibrahim [as] only became an example afterwards would seem to imply that he wasn't an example before. Again, your interpretation of the verse makes no sense. And as for the purpose of the test.... Allah is indeed testing ibrahim [as]. وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ {And when Ibrahim's lord tested him by commands.} Next,we see that because Ibrahim [as] completed this test, Allah made him into an imam. فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا {So he completed his test, then Allah said: "we are making you for the people an imam."} So we see that because ibrahim [as] passed his test, Allah made him into an imam. This means that the purpose for the test was to make him an imam. I don't understand how you cannot see this? If you're unable to grasp this simple concept then I'm afraid there isn't any point in arguing with you. This is basic logic. If I test someone's ability and he passes my test, and afterwards I give him a job at my company, common sense dictates that the purpose for me testing him was to see if he could do the job properly. Same exact thing here. Allah [swt] was testing the will of Ibrahim [as] by agreement of both Sunni and Shia. If the result of his passing this test of will is the being given the rank of imamah then we know by logical necessity that failing the test would result in not becoming an imam. Why? Because if passing the test of Allah is not a prerequisite to become an imam Allah would not do a vain act of testing ibrahim [as] for no reason. Allah does not act in vain nor are any of his actions without purpose or redundant. Therefore, we know by logical conclusion that a prophet and messenger was unable to become an imam without direct testing and choosing. If this is the case, then how can a non-prophet be voted in by a shura into the office of imamah? This is akin to saying that a champion professional weight lifter couldn't lift X weight without help. If this is true then obviously an average joe would not be able to lift X weight without help. Same thing here. If a prophet/messenger cannot become an imam without being tested by Allah directly and given imamah, how does it come about that your sect decided to hold a shura council and vote a person into imamah without Allah testing him or choosing him? I already answered this above but I will repeat myself again. Can you not see the contradiction in your own response? You yourself admit that the reason for Allah making Ibrahim [as] into an Imam was because he passed his test. You then say in the next sentence that this wasn't the purpose for Allah testing him. Are you even reading what you're typing? If someone is tested and is given a position or job afterwards because of the completing of his test, then my dear friend focus with me, the purpose for the test was to see if he is worthy for the job. Allah [swt] knows that Ibrahim [as] is worthy, this test was simply a way of creating a doorway in order for Allah to give him this rank by Ibrahim's actions. Just like Allah knows whether or not we deserve hell or heaven in the future yet he still creates us so that our actions are manifested in reality and thus merit a manifest "real" consequence. Look man its very simple.... If Ibrahim [as] is asking for his family to be included in this "pact of imamah" then imamah here doesn't mean "example." It doesn't make sense to call it a "pact" that would be included in his offspring if Allah is just saying he is making Ibrahim [as] an example. How can they be included in a "pact of example." I don't know how much more clear I can be with you. What are you talking about? If someone has riyaasa means someone is a "ra2ees." Which means a figure which gives you orders or gives you rulings, is an authority over you. I find it funny how you want to change the word "riyaasa" and "Imam" into "being an example" and "leading people in faith." Go to any 5th grader Arab kid he will tell you that imam means leader, and ra2ees means boss/authority figure. I already answered this above. Again, the purpose for the test is obviously drawn from the conditions of the test. What you're saying in the above quote and what I'm saying are completely different things. You again did not understand my argument. Please read carefully... If a Prophet/Messenger is being tested for the strength of his will and character and is rewarded by the rank of imamah, which rank symbolizes a higher rank of strength of will and character? His messenger-ship or his imamah? Your example of martyrdom has nothing to do with anything I've said. If imamah has a lower requirement of character and will, then why is a prophet being rewarded with imamah after being tested if prophet-hood itself is already a testimony to his will and strength?
  13. @Christianlady What do you mean by the Jews were trying to save Germany? I was always taught in history class the Jews were disliked for their inlufence in Germany and their media attacks on the country blaming Germany for ww1. That's why the Germans kicked them out.
  14. How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! ‘Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. ‘The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. ‘A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. ‘The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property – either as a child, a wife, or a concubine – must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. ‘Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the faith: all know how to die but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. ‘No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith.’ - Winston Churchill
  15. Also, please show us the hadith where abu bakr was appointed as an imam in your books. This verse has nothing to do with khilafa. This is talking about those who came after from among the people of their prophets who sinned, it has nothing to do with imamah. Why post the Qur'an when you don't understand it?
  16. Look how foolish your argument is. According to you, if someone who is an imam is not accepted by the people, then he isn't an imam. So then how about the prophet who isn't accepted by his people? Is he no longer a prophet? The prophet's job is to teach and spread the religion, if he is imprisoned does his prophet-hood cease to exist?
  17. The problem with Fahad and Chinese is that they keep bringing verses from the Qur'an which have nothing to do with imamah and khilafa and are trying to argue with them without even understanding their meaning.
  18. No. The verse isn't saying that "imam" means only that he will "be remembered through the ages as an example." This is a poor response. Imam means leader; it doesn't mean "example." Sunnis are always going on about why didn't the prophet [saw] mention the word imam, and look at them now even trying to change the meaning of this word. You then said that you don't agree with him being tested for imamah. I don't understand how anyone who can read this ayat in Arabic can say that. The verse is undoubtedly saying that he is being tested for imamah. I will translate the following Arabic verse in its literal meaning and show you how exactly the verse is clear. وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ {124} " And when Ibrahim was tested by his lord with words( orders,commands), and he completed his test. Allah said: "Indeed I am making you an Imam." Then he(Ibrahim) said: "And from my offspring?" Allah then said :" my pact is not obtained by the wrongdoers." The verse is very clear. Because Ibrahim [as] completed his test, Allah made him into an Imam. How can you not see that this is the meaning of the verse? If Allah made Ibrahim [as] into an imam because he passed his test then by logical necessity we know that the passing of his test was the cause for him becoming an imam. 1+1=2. You cannot change the rules of logic to suit your wishes. Also we know that this "imamah" does not mean example ( قدوة ) because we see that Ibrahim [as] is asking Allah to include this "imamah" among his offspring, and Allah responds by saying that this is his divine pact. If this is the case then the only way imamah can be a divine pact is that it means leadership, since how can a divine pact be related to being an example? And this is exactly at Ar-raazi says in his tafseer. أنه تعالى حكى عنه أنه طلب الإمامة لأولاده فقال الله تعالى: { لاَ يَنَالُ عَهْدِي ٱلظَّـٰلِمِينَ } فدل ذلك على أن منصب الإمامة والرياسة في الدين لا يصل إلى الظالمين Allah said regarding Ibrahim that he requested imamah for his children, so Allah said:" my pact does not include the wrong doers." So this indicates to us that the designation of Imamah and ruler-ship in religion does not go to the wrong doers." Ar-razi says that imamah in this verse is riyaasa. We obtain the following information from this verse alone. 1-Ibrahim [as] was tested, and because he passed this test he became an imam. This shows us that imamah is granted by Allah directly since ibrahim who was a prophet/messenger only became an imam after he was tested by Allah. If this is the case how can we "vote" for an imam? 2- This also proves that imamah is higher than prophethood, since ibrahim as a prophet became an imam after being tested. If prophethood is higher than imamah why was he rewarded after being tested? This is like saying that a person with a PhD was tested and then granted a masters degree. The Sunni understanding of this verse is absurd. 3- We know that imamah is a divine pact. If imamah is a divine pact then how can someone "vote" for an imam? This also proves that it being a divine pact is not related to being an "example." May Allah guide us, ameen.
  19. @GreatChineseFall Unfortunately, as is the case with most Sunnis who try to argue against imamah in the Qur'an, you have missed the entire point of the verses that I've posted and have also misunderstood our argument. I answered your first attempt, and afterwards you came back with more verses in hopes to prove your point. أَوَعَجِبْتُمْ أَنْ جَاءَكُمْ ذِكْرٌ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ عَلَىٰ رَجُلٍ مِنْكُمْ لِيُنْذِرَكُمْ ۚ وَاذْكُرُوا إِذْ جَعَلَكُمْ خُلَفَاءَ مِنْ بَعْدِ قَوْمِ نُوحٍ وَزَادَكُمْ فِي الْخَلْقِ بَسْطَةً ۖ فَاذْكُرُوا آلَاءَ اللَّهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ {69} The phrase "Ja3lkum 5ulafaa2," meaning that it was Allah who made mankind successors by his designation. Meaning what? It was Allah's direct will that mankind were to be successors of Nuh [as] after the flood and to live on and increase. This is done by Allah's divine will and designation. So where is your "refutation?" وَكَذَٰلِكَ جَعَلْنَا لِكُلِّ نَبِيٍّ عَدُوًّا شَيَاطِينَ الْإِنْسِ وَالْجِنِّ يُوحِي بَعْضُهُمْ إِلَىٰ بَعْضٍ زُخْرُفَ الْقَوْلِ غُرُورًا ۚ وَلَوْ شَاءَ رَبُّكَ مَا فَعَلُوهُ ۖ فَذَرْهُمْ وَمَا يَفْتَرُونَ {112} You yourself admitted that the phrase "ja3lna" here does not mean direct divine choosing, as this would associate ugliness to Allah, and this is impossible. As Allah does not designate or create evil. Therefore, with your own admittance, this verse means that the word here has a contextual meaning that Allah "allowed," by his will that this should happen, not that he created it or designated it directly. So with your own admittance, the context changed the meaning of the word ja3la "to make," into the meaning of "to allow." Otherwise, you'd be saying that Allah "made directly," evil, and this is kufr. So you admit that context is everything. However, when we look at the verse that I posted regarding ibrahim [as], we see that the context does indeed imply direct choosing as Allah says: وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ {124} Here it says that Allah first tested Ibrahim [as] with the purpose of making him into an Imam afterwards if he succeeds. How is it that Allah is not designating Ibrahim [as] as an Imam directly if he is testing him for that very purpose? As you can see, the examples that you gave and the example that I gave have no relation whatsoever with each other. So my questions are the following for you or any Sunni who can answer. 1- How is it that Ibrahim [as], who is a prophet and messenger, could not become an Imam without Allah testing and designating him to be an Imam, and yet Abu Bakr, who was neither a prophet not messenger, can be voted into the position of Ibrahim [as] who was tested and was a prophet and messenger? 2- If Prophet-hood is higher than imamah, then why is Ibrahim [as] being tested as a prophet in order to become an imam? If a prophet is higher than an imam then why is a test of will necessary? As for my third question.... وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ {124} Ibrahim [as] is asking Allah to include his family into imamah. Allah [swt] says that imamah is his "covenant/pact/3hd," and that it will only include the righteous members of his family. 3- Is imamah a divine covenant/pact?
  20. Allah [swt] is saying that he has made us into a middle/just nation. This "making" is indeed divine since the verse is talking about revealed law/theology that we follow. When Allah says he "makes" something that means he is designating it and choosing it to be so. Also it is common sense. If Ibrahim [as] who is a nabi could not become an imam without being tested and made into imam by Allah himself, how is it that we can vote someone in?
  21. وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ {124} وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا وَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْهِمْ فِعْلَ الْخَيْرَاتِ وَإِقَامَ الصَّلَاةِ وَإِيتَاءَ الزَّكَاةِ ۖ وَكَانُوا لَنَا عَابِدِينَ {73} إِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ خَلِيفَةً ۖ قَالُوا أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَنْ يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاءَ وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ {30}
  22. Mashallah bro. May Allah increase you in knowledge even more.
  23. Khumayni's wilayat al faqih book isn't even a part of the hawza curriculum. I don't know what hawza you go to.
  24. I don't see how you could think he's a terrible debater. I've never seen him lose a debate. Care to show me a video where he does? Do you think Kamal Al-Haydari is a better debater?
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