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In the Name of God بسم الله


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Everything posted by faridov

  1. I'm somewhat surprised that this would be a problem. I thought you believed that the Ghadeer Event was clear explicit proof of the appointment of Ali. You also said that you will be using your strongest arguments first. Now you say that you need to use supporting hadiths to make sense out of Al Ghadeer. Subhan Allah. Please be clear Abu Hadi. You and me both know that Ali has many merits. However, establishing a merit does not equate to appointing a successor, as you are aware. Since Al Ghadeer is not a clear declaration, as you have implied from your previous post, are there any clear declarations from the appointment of Ali? Also, you have once again mentioned that you will be quoting Mutawatir hadiths. I will hold you to this and this will be my fifth condition. So, jazak Allah khairan for making my life easier.
  2. Abu Hadi, this is obviously going no where. Not only have you failed to address my request for evidence for the Imamah of the Twelve, but you have also failed to address my reasons that I presented in which I have requested that you avoid diverting the topic. It seems that your persistence in asking me to debate you about Al Ghadeer is because you firmly believe that I have no good answer to it. Since you sincerely seem to believe that this is the case, I will discuss Al Ghadeer with you if the following conditions are met: 1- The debate will take place in a new thread which will be entitled: Al Ghadeer Debate. 2- You will stick to proving the Imamah of Ali using ONLY Al Ghadeer and will not be changing the topic. 3- Nobody will be allowed to participate except for the two of us. 4- I will be given privileges to post without having the need to get my posts approved by moderators.
  3. Subhanallah! I did not say hadith Al Ghadeer is weak. It is unfortunate that you have prohibited yourself from entering my website as I have personally authenticated the hadith of Al Ghadeer from the path of several companions, like Buraida, Sa'ad bin Abi Waqqas, Zaid bin Thabit, and Sa'eed bin Wahb! Yes, I authenticated this hadith four times, and now I am accused of weakening it?! I mentioned those topics as examples of topics that you will drag the debate to. I then added that you will also be derailing the topic to include many many other hadiths which will happen to be fabricated. Please address my reasons for avoiding the diverting of the topic in post #48.
  4. Just in case some Shias are wondering why I am not interested in debating the Imamah of Ali, I will list the possible outcomes of that discussions that will without a doubt be tens of pages long, since the Imamah of Ali can be derived through many evidences, like Hadith Al Manzilah, Al Ghadeer, Al Thaqalayn, Ayat Al Tatheer, Ayat Al Mubahala, Ayat Al Mawadda, and many many fabricated hadiths. So, twenty to a hundred pages from now, we will arrive at the possible scenarios: - Abu Hadi admits that there is no explicit proof of the Imamah of Ali in Sunni sources, but will find the ones in Shia sources sufficient for him. In other words, this is a waste of time for both of us. - I am unconvinced by Abu Hadi's arguments, where in which he will accuse me of being stubborn, and will formally end the debate since there is no point in arguing the Imamah of the Twelve if I will not accept the first Imam. Once again, a waste of time for both of us. - I accept the arguments of Abu Hadi and choose to accept Ali is the first appointed Imam. Which will bring us back to where we are right now, since I have consistently said that I have conceded this point and I would like evidences of the Imamah of the rest of the Imams. Inshallah this will be clear to those that ponder upon it with an open heart.
  5. Abu Hadi, let us say that we decided to debate Al Ghadeer in another thread, and I whole-heartedly accepted your evidences. Heck, I climbed a minaret and called out the third shihada. We will still end up in this thread even after I have accepted Ali as the successor of the Prophet peace be upon him, because I need evidences to accept the rest of the Imams. Hence, I am saving you the time and trouble and conceding that Ali is the successor. You may proceed with evidences for the Imamate of the Twelve, the topic that all other moderators and members avoided, since they knew that they would have nothing to show for it. Don't let the Shia down akhi. Don't let the Imams down. Do it for Al Hussain akhi.
  6. For those that are curious, my concession of this point is academically and legally known as an arguendo. arguendo prep. Latin meaning "for the sake of argument" used by lawyers in the context of "assuming arguendo" that the facts were as the other party contends, but the law prevents the other side from prevailing. Example: "assuming arguendo" that the court finds our client, the defendant, was negligent, the other party (plaintiff) was so contributorily negligent he cannot recover damages. In short, the lawyer is not admitting anything, but wants to make a legal argument only. The word appears most commonly in appeals briefs. Example from a Shi'ee scholar: Al-Mufeed in Al-Ifsah said: If one were to say: If Ameer Al Mu'mineen is the Imam after the Prophet peace be upon him and his progeny, then how did Abu Bakr, Omar, and Uthman, step ahead of him and claimed to be Imams and claimed to be more deserving of it? It is said to him: This is due to them taking from him his right and what he deserves, which is not an impossible act, since they were not infallible, even if they appeared to be of great character. Then, if he (the Sunni) said: How is this possible and they the best of the companions of the Prophet peace be upon him and were from the earliest of Muslims? Al Mufeed replies after listing out who he believes are the best companions: For the sake of the argument that these are of high merit, this doesn't make them infallible from misguidance, for they can fall into error and forget and it is not impossible that they were stubborn. As I have insisted, time and time again, even if one is to accept that Ali was appointed by the Prophet peace be upon him, there are no evidences that suggest that the rest of the Imams were appointed. This fact is amplified in Abu Hadi's insistence in diverting and dragging the topic to prove the Imamah of Ali.
  7. ^ Stop dodging my question. You are making yourself look bad in the eyes of other Shias. @shiachat mods: We never had this issue in the "Nasibi" forum HCY. They made a debate thread between me and Wasil and nobody could post in them except for the two of us as exceptions. This is inexcusable, no matter how you look at it.
  8. @ shiachat mods: Please remove my restrictions in this thread. What kind of a debate is it when a debater needs to wait for his opponent to approve of his post?
  9. Abu Hadi, the title of the debate is: Proof for the Imamah of the Twelve. If your intention is to drag this by discussing Al Ghadeer, then hadith Al Manzilah, then hadith Al Dar, then Ayat Al Wilayah, then Ayat Al Mubahala, then Ayat Uli Al Amr, and forcing a simple debate into one that spans tens of pages, then I accuse you of intentionally avoiding the original request of providing evidence for THE TWELVE. You are showing weakness by not moving forward when I have conceded a point. Ali is an appointed Imam. Now what? Who did he appoint next?
  10. Yes. Al Ghadeer is not explicit proof of the Imamah of Ali. It can be understood as an appointment, but it is open to interpretation. I will not be getting into those interpretations. If you are interested, then you can go to my site. I do not want to get side-tracked. I have, once again, conceded this point to you. Believing in the Imamah of Ali does not lead me to believing in the Imamah of the Twelve. Please proceed by providing evidence for the appointment of Al Hasan.
  11. Once again, this debate is not about accepting Ali as his successor, since this is a view shared by tens of deviant Shia sects. This debate is about the Twelvers. I have given you a freebie by letting this one go and accepting this nass, as long as you can prove the rest.
  12. The Prophet peace be upon him saying: You are my successor.
  13. This nass is not explicit proof of the Imamah of Ali.
  14. Abu Hadi, if you have better things to do with your time than give da'awa then go ahead. Allah forbid that you spend fifteen minutes a day talking to a Sunni about evidences for your faith. In response to your point, I concede this point in order to prove that the best that any Shia can do is give "evidence" for the Imamah of Ali. However, the theory of having Twelve Imams crumbles upon any request for additional evidence. I will once again say: I concede this point for the sake of the argument. I am simply "giving you" this point as a freebie even though I do not find your evidence for Ali's Imamah as sufficient. However, if you can prove the appointment of the rest of the Imams, then I will whole-heartedly accept Ali as an appointed Imam as well. You can start off by providing evidence of the appointment of Al Hasan bin Ali.
  15. Yes, for the sake of the argument, he is an appointed Imam and that he may designate his successor.
  16. It is not an explicit designation. For the sake of the argument, let us say that it is, and that Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, is an appointed Imam. Please provide explicit appointments for the other eleven, since as I have explained, Al Sadiq says: Whosoever rejects a living rejects those that passed away.
  17. Abu Hadi, you have presented the event of Al Ghadeer as evidence for the Imamah of Ali, may Allah be pleased with him. However, this is insufficient because even if I were to accept the Imamah of Ali, I would technically be rejecting him since I reject the other eleven Imams. Al-Sadiq, may Allah's mercy be upon him, said: Whosoever rejects one of the living, then he rejects those that have passed away. Al Sadooq Ibn Babawaih includes this hadith in Chapter 39 Those that Reject the Qa'im from his book Kamal Al Deen. This is why I am requesting of proof for all twelve Imams, and not simply for Ali, since accepting the Imamah of Ali alone is like rejecting the Imamah of Ali.
  18. Thank you repenter. Please also take a look at another message I get, which says "you can only make 5 posts until Today... This restriction is in place until 05 Oct..." Abu Hadi: How is Hadith Al Ghadir evidence for the Imamah of the Twelve?
  19. Hmm... It still says I need mods approval before my posts can appear on the site after I post.
  20. Thank you repenter. I will continue posting after the post by peace seeker is deleted inshallah. This is supposed to be a one on one debate.
  21. Can I get post restrictions removed? It seems only fair that my posts should appear as soon as I post them. Don't you agree?
  22. Nass is the textual evidence (from the Qur'an or the hadith.) Your logic and my logic hold no weight when going against nass. You can argue that logical evidences lead to the belief in a benevolent creator, but one needs textual evidences to know what that creators wants (i.e. the pillars of Islam, Shari'ah, etc) from you since you cannot arrive to what He wants through logic and nothing else. If Allah, praise be to Him, wanted me to believe and follow twelve Imams, then I would need textual proofs of this. You, being a Shi'ee, have seen such proofs, and thus accepted the Twelve. No Shi'ee was born on an abandoned island and sat down contemplating the stars and ended up with the belief that Allah, praise be to Him, apppointed Ali, Hasan, Hussain, Ali, Mohammed, etc... Please present to me with those textual proofs.
  23. Jazak Allah khairan for cleaning the thread up. Hadeeth of Ghadeer as textual proof of what exactly?
  24. Abu Hadi, do you still have the intention of hiding the other posts? It is best for this debate to start on the first page for the sake of readers, not the sixth.
  25. You and I agree that it is not an option to believe in additional prophets because of the nass (textual evidence). We also agree that it is not an option to believe that the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him is still alive because of the nass. Once again, it would be preferable to have countless prophets or an immortal prophet, but Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala did not will it. When something preferable goes against the nass or lacks nass one cannot accept it as a reality. I refuse to believe in the Twelve Imams because I do not find a nass.
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