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In the Name of God بسم الله


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About solitair

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  1. Update ? - you sound like your view is that the law in the old testament is compatible with the complete contradicting teachings of the NT. So what is the point them ? This is so typical for Christianity, there is never a clear answer to anything. Update is not the same as contradiction - but an update can have that effect that a contradiction now is in place.
  2. ok, So Im not the only one that finds the Bible contradicting, Jesus dis as well, and some of these contradictions are in fact addressed by Jesus as well if I understand you correctly. So to be absolutely clear on this - there are - according to the New Testament - contradictions with the old testament that Jesus have addressed, and that Jesus have replaced ? Is this correct ? The new testament - is not to be compared with the old testament, because there are in fact things that contradict. So why the heck have I been hearing from these Christians over and over --- that there are no contradictions in the bible ???? Man, i can't believe these people. Thank you Placid for clearing this up. At leas some of these contradictions are now explainable.
  3. This is a very interesting topic, because the difference between believing something yourself, and to force your believes on others - is big. This is something that one has to like about Islam, that it is trying to protect people from being led astray. Christianity had some attempt like this a long time ago, but it all ended in disaster where your girls were burnt on fires and similar craziness. In Islam - it is very serious - it is about your life. To an atheist religion is like a "hobby" or interest, it is not about life and death. So they do not understand why this is such a serious topic. I turned this around in my head, and said to my self, what if my daughter was tricked to follow some sect that wanted her to be part of a mass suicide. Would I freak out and get my guns out... hmm probable. So to a Muslim father that has a daughter that someone is trying to convert to some other religion - he is faced with the danger of his daughter losing her life... So - to me it is very acceptable that there is a penalty for this. But only from the perspective that there is a God. I don't believe that there is a God, but I have to accept this law - as billions of people is a good indication that he does exist, and one had to accept that people fight for their life - being it their earthly or their eternal life. I understand Atheist that don't agree to this, but I do not understand Christians that object to how Islam is doing this. They should agree completely and understand completely - because God does exist to them.
  4. You said to HI Ali Musaaa, "I know I am making a point about Religion and then people who mis-use the religion. a distinction solitair seems to overlook." You are absolutely judging Islam by the actions of some Muslims, but me that is not a Muslim and not a Christian, have no motive to do judge any of them. You are in fact in several things you have written, not separating the people that mis-use the religion from the religion it self. I am on the other hand clear on this, last time in post 271: "Does that mean that it is true ? No, it simply means that the people that followed and used Christianity over the course of history - are worse than the people that followed Islam. What that means for the religion i can not judge." BIBLE: About the Bible. My criticism of the bible is that the bible is extremely complicated, un-available - and you probable need a degree in theology to understand something, you probable need to know Hebrew, Armaic, Koine, or perhaps Syriac. You need your contextual analysis and what have you... just as you described, and definitely have to accept that the Bible is not enough as you need other sacred scriptures and the Magesterium .... as you say. bla bla bla to get it. And that is my point ! So why do you disagree ? You are saying it yourself ! When I talk about the Bible - I say - it would be very strange if God gave his word to man in a book they could not understand and read.That is where you and I do not agree. I think it is completely ridiculous that God did this. So my source is YOU ! Based on what YOU say to me, i think the Bible is not the word of God in its current form. It is completely confusing and full of contradictions that requires years of theology studies and what not to decipher, as it has obviously been manipulated away from what God would have "written". QUR'AN: It requires very little to read it, and i have no problem at all to follow and understand it. Judging the religion: Your said: "You are also making the often repeated mistake of judging a religion based on the actions of its so-called believers rather than the religion itself." I said: that the blood dripping history of the Catholic Church does not mean that Christianity is bad, but that the people that followed it was worse than Muslims. This is about the people not the religion. My advice is therfor repeated, read before you type. RESPONDS FROM MUSLIMS: The Qur'an is the only book i read without any guidance of any sort. I have not heard any screams from Muslims over my understanding of the Qur'an. Now is that not interesting. I can read it and understand it. RESPONDS FROM CHRISTIANS: But the bible, i read it and get massive objections from Christians all the time. I simply do not understand it correctly and so forth. What ? How much am i lacking in intelligence ? or maybe it has nothing to do with intelligence, maybe i just don't have that incredible list of tools you are referring to that is required to understand anything of the bible. I have not written anything about the Bible that I have not first discussed with friends that are (2 priests and one theology professor). They are on the other hand Christians, and I therefor want to discuss what people can add on this forum. But it is just chaos in every post when it comes to the bilble.
  5. You are correct. I am not very knowledgeable in Christianity, and I do not understand the Bible - but i never said i was not knowledgeable in history ! I never said I did not understand, and in great detail what has been going on with the Catholic Church. The inquisitions, the witch burnings, the crusades and so on. I read the Bible - and maybe i am completely wrong. If I am wrong, i expect to hear that from the Christians here, that is why i debate. Is Islam better than Christianity? I have no Ida - well what version of Christianity is it we are talking about ? If it is the original version - the answer is no - it is not better than Islam, because Jesus was a prophet in Islam, and what Jesus was teaching is completely in agreement with Islam. In general I am not one that can judge in such a question, because I do not understand the common version of Christianity that are here today. I understand some parts of the Bible that i have been studying recently - and by talking to friends of mine lately that are theologists. The things I have understood are the things I have written about here lately, but I am in no way what so ever really capable of really understanding the Bible. I think most of my post have made it clear that I don't understand the Bible and that I do not find it easy to understand. I can on the other hand understand when I am fed some strange story that is not logical.... and from what I have red so far in the Bible, it is very challenging to puzzle it together. In Islam that is not difficult for me. Does that mean that Islam is better than Christianity ? I don't know, but it seems like the Qur'an definitely is easier to understand - and of that I am absolutely sure. I have yet to discover something i would consider a lie, or dishonest, or a coverup, or not logical or similar from reading the Qur'an. It is a book that is all logical, easy to understand and it all seems to be complete - at least so far. To your question about death for apostates. What does God say in Christianity that is going to happen to someone that turn their back on God and Christianity ? Someone that was with God, and then turned away ? Are they going to live forever or are they going to die ? I have not read the bible much, but the consequences are horrible according to the bible. You keep on listing these things that are supposed to be bad in Islam - but even me, that are like a child when it comes to knowledge about the Bible can in no time at all pick your arguments apart as false... why is that ? In Christianity you burn in hell for eternity... Christianity burned witches on fires ... you keep bringing up these arguments that are supposed to show how Christianity is better than Islam, but do not realize that every time you say something, there is a darker history in your own religion. That does not mean that I am driving this topic - you and other here are actually driving this forward. You are trying to say that Islam is worse than Christianity, and for every argument I refer to history, and in that history there is darkness hanging over your religion... so why do you continue these arguments ? It is something you can never win, because of history. No matter what you say - there is always going to be a horrible darkness in the history of your religion - to show that Islam comes out as less bad than Christianity. Does that mean that it is true ? No, it simply means that the people that followed and used Christianity over the course of history - are worse than the people that followed Islam. What that means for the religion i can not judge.
  6. I was honestly hoping that this topic was going to just fade out of the conversation as there is ready enough polarizations - but it seems like I just can not help saying something now. Christianity is one long series of contradictions - and Jesus is often in the middle of it. They teach tolerance and criticize for example Islam for being judging - and how their religion is so understanding and loving - just see what jesus did and said - this and that... but they just never stop to listen or to realize what Jesus really did say - and what the bible really does say. I find this to be completely funny. It is like they have some sort of pick colored sunglasses on to cloud their vision with eternal love or something... ;-) He is going to rule the world with an iron stick - kick the bad out of people when he comes back. The Christians say Islam is so strict and violent, but ignore the teachings where Jesus is going to come down on earth an rule with an iron fist or what ever it is. The hard and violent rulings under Christ is going to be no picnic - and Christians just have no idea what they are talking about, pretending that all this is just about love dovie .... happy stuff... The character of Jesus described in some parts of the bible, is a hard - no compromising ruler, with a iron stick in his hand, that is going to inflict some serious consequences on bad people. Read - before you talk... that is my advice... Islam is already clear on how you should not compromise with sinners, and the Jesus that is described in the Bible - that is going to rule with no compromise... he seriously sound like a Muslim to me... funny how Christians don't see that.
  7. I find it fascinating that people want to have conversations where large quantities of facts and history is just supposed to excluded from the conversation. The most characteristic thing about Christianity is that it seems to want to be accepted in spite of its history. Any times history comes up to slap them in the face - they want the rest of the world to just ignore it - and love each other... You see this as a down spiral - because you will never accept history ! It will always bother you ... because what you believe in, is contradicting facts from history. Christians want to believe in their religion, and by all means - I am not trying to stop anybody from that, i think Christianity have loads of good stuff - but i find it amazing that they expect the rest of the world to ignore history along with them. If you can not accept that Christianity is a blood dripping religions with so many skeletons that it is sickening, then you might want to try another religion or to become atheist... It is simply never going to happen that a Christian can talk about their religion - and not have the rest of the world thinking about all the deaths and massacres in its history. Stop denying history If you want conversations like this to not be what you call a down spiral - then stop denying it. Because I will never allow a nazi to pretend like the 9 million jews never got murdered, and I am never going to allow any Christian to pretend like millions of Muslims did not get massacred by the catholic Church.... Anytime anybody comes along to try to justify or explain some of the horror away, i will, and i hope other with me - are going to object to it intensely. These are horrible crimes that should never be forgotten. - Final - Now the topic of this thread is if Christianity was created by Paul, and i think I am prepared to say that it looks like it was corrupted by people - where Paul seems to be one of them. After that came Islam, and it seems to all make sense, as Islam was not corrupted by anybody - and therefore is the final. May i ask what is your religion ? I assume a christian of some kind, but what church or part of it do you believe in - if you don't mind.
  8. You say that I am telling you that: " ... islamic concepts of justice if revenge is the underlying principle of the jurisprudence as solitair seems to say it is. " Are you deliberately trying to twist my words ? I was talking about Christianity - not Islam !! It is within Christianity Jesus made endless points out of stooping the people from wanting revenge - or are you saying that the bible is about Jesus talking to Muslims ?? Are you deliberately just hearing what you want to hear ? Did you not hear my references to the NT ? Turn the other cheek ? Was I referring to anything in the Qur'an ? NO i was not, I was not talking at all about Islam - but Christianity and what Christianity originally was preaching. Why Jesus said what he said about revenge and turning the other cheek. Why does Christianity preach that God will burn people in hell ? Justice is served by just making the people disappear. Why make them feel pain ? Why suffer ? And again, this is NOT about Islam, but Christianity ! I hope that is clear now ! So why don't you answer this simple question. Contradicting : hell and love - almost in the same sentence. God is burning you for eternity, and his son Jesus, said love dove love - even your enemy, turn the other cheek because we love everybody that hurt us... You, and also many Christians do not understand that Jesus was talking about revenge - not telling you to love everybody that hurt you. If you read the Qur'an you have a chance of understanding this, as it is the next chapter in the story. You don't find these older teachings emphasized the same way in Islam - but that does not mean that this is about Islam. I can also say that this is not what you find in northern mythology, but that does not make this in to something that has much to do with northern mythology. For the record - I never said that revenge is the underlying principle in Islamic jurisprudence. I said: God, in the BIBLE, said that he will give the victims revenge. This is not something I said about Islam. When I said that revenge is given more room in Islam, that means - that GOD did not need to enforce such strict commands as he needed to enforce on the Christians hundreds of year earlier. The fact is that Gods prophet 2000 years ago was Jesus, and Jesus explained to people what was needed at the time. Later there had been a progress, and if you read the Qur'an, it was not necessary to enforce such restrictions - because the Muslims are stricter with themselves, they are able to control themselves more. Why don't you ask questions if you are not clear on what i talk about - like would be normal in a respectful conversation - in stead of saying things that very well can be takes as accusing me of telling people that Islam is about revenge ...
  9. You seem to be confused about revenge, like so many people are. Like revenge is a bad thing. It is not bad - is is good - of God. And it is a cleansing rectifying thing, but not something people should execute easily because people are not capable of handling its power. Therefor God said - leave this up to me. Christianity has a very wrong interpretation of "turn the other cheak". It means, "dont worry, your revenge will rain like fire over this violater" one day - so do not let him trick you in to becoming out of control. This is along the lines of how it is better to tear out your eye than to let it steer you wrong. In the path to revenge you might step wrong, and in stead of getting revenge you might become an aggressor yourself. Be careful is not the same as revenge is bad or wrong all together. People have misunderstood this commandment in Christianity - and have started to talk about revenge in negative terms all together. This is something that God is going to to do, and that he has already done plenty of. God is not the doer of evil, so revenge is not bad in any way, it is just dangerous. In Islam - a stricter religion - more controlled - revenge is given more room for it power to heal and create justice for the victims. Like I said, a raped woman - will not get over hear fear, and will continue to be afraid to sleep alone in the house, she will not get her life back until she is given her revenge - as in seeing the man getting arrested, convicted and PUNISHED severely for his sins. God promises every victim revenge, but said that they must trust in him, and leave most of this up to him. As going out to get revenge is dangerous. It easily creates more war, and more conflict - and more victims among other things. It can also have other psychological affects. The understanding that Revenge is bad or wrong - is on the other hand completely false. The restrictions on seeking revenge, is given to protect us from our weaknesses as humans. Not to force us to accept the evil of others like Christianity has turned this in to.
  10. .. and then they went on and did it all again before they started their next project. Don't forget that they resulted to cannibalism as well during parts of this... not very chirstian ey... :-) compared to muslims that dont even eat pork, id say Islam is a bit more appetizing...
  11. (your post about history as you see it - is simply to long for me to comment. I just want to say that it is not very relevant for my point so I am not going in to it. I have a little different understanding of all this history, as there are many historians that have different opinions also.) I think the above is the point where Im pressing on a nerve... was this in the name of jesus or not ? A logo - or a banner - lest say that you have the logo of BMW on your office building, are there anybody that is not going to think that it is the office of BMW ? So what if you have a long parade with JESUS hanging on a cross ... anybody going to object that the parade is in the name of Jesus ? The crusaders had a red crosses on their uniform - the cross of Jesus. Their shield - a red cross - where Jesus was hang. But i get your point, and i agree. This was not according to Christianity - as it was meant to be. Christianity was corrupted, and this is part of the evidence. There are many Christians today that are in agreement with the original message from God, presented by Jesus. They majority of them are called Muslims. he ha ha --- i love this post. : " formula that some people are trying to drive here as Christianity's unbeatable flagship. "
  12. Let me just bring a very important definition of guilt in to this conversation. Standing by the side of a crime looking, doing nothing. In stead of asking what did the Pope do - to be accused of such crimes... ask yourself - what did he NOT do. The history is full of just that, NOTHING... In many conflicts you will see a groups that contains individual that wage war, that try to get the rest to follow in to conflict and battle. In the same group you sometimes have other that try to calm things down. So - during these 100, 400 or 750 years - (how every you define this period, because this is question of definition where you find very different opinions among historians - not about finding the correct data from our history books) - is there anything that shows how the Pope was working hard to stop this from happening ? Where is the evidence of how hard the Pope(s) worked to stop the massacres ? What do we know ? We know that during several hundred years (never mind how many) the pope (S) because there were several, look at things happening that you can read about in various history books, and did what ?? That is the evidence - because the details in how precisely you can define whether or not the Pope ordered a soldier to put his knife to the neck of a pregnant Muslim woman or not - is not relevant. I am interested in finding something in the history where he used all his power to stop it - in the name of Christ. There is nothing, and therefor he is right up there next to other horrible people in history. That is what makes him guilty ! What can we say about the Vietnam War ? It was a steep learning curve for the USA. Would we accept that it went on for hundreds of years, or did the country stand up and scream for an end to it ? We are not debating if someone can make a mistake, but if they continue and continue and continue after the see the horror of it. Now the Pope(s) did just that. No stopping, no ending anything what so ever. It just went on and on and on.... So if you are so eager to debate this - than show me some facts. I am not the one that is lacking evidence in this conversation - you are ! Because this is not a debate on whether or not millions of Muslims died from christian swords because nothing can deny this fact. This is about whether or Not the Pope tried to stop it, and what he did to stop it. He had his opportunity - let med see: every second of his elected period. That goes for every one of these popes, but did they ? NO !! So let us define another word: innocence How can a man that stands in the middle of a crime with blood on his hands, be found innocent. 1: he was forced under threats of his life, children's life and so forth to do something bad, or 2:) he did not know that it was happening.. (there are several others) So back to the Pope: How on earth is it that you would defend him ? Where is the evidence - that these pope's was not completely guilty of this war crime and terrorism that this easily can be defined as. As far as these accusations you say I raise against you. My point is clear: a)you deny something b ) at the same time as you sound like you are emotional effected by what i say, c) at the same time as you can not show any proof of what the Pope's ever did to try to stop these horrible things. Maybe to you that is not prove that your arguments are more emotional than logical - but to me that is the very definition of when someone is reasoning out of what they feel, rather than facts they have. I mean you are defending the Pope, but you say nothing at all - not one single positive thing about the pope. You have not one single sentence where you show anything at all that the pope ever did to clean it up and stop it. So yes - your reasoning and arguments appear to be all based on emotion and not on any facts at all. Sure you tell me that I have to show you evidence where you are contradicting, but do I ? Is it not completely obvious ? You defend the pope with no evidence of his innocence what so ever ? Can that be anything but emotions, just like a mother in a murder trial keeps telling the judge that her little boy was so loving and nice.... in spite of the fact that he as an adult raped and killed many children. The judge - just lime me - are expecting evidence of his innocence, but do not hear anything relevant - therefor conclude that the objection is just based on emotions. Do to prove me wrong - just show me the data - that proves the Pope Innocent, and i will gladly admit that you are right and i am wrong !
  13. Well, what i like about Islam is that it is clear - and little compromise. Bad is bad, not like with your pope, where there are so many circumstances, so many this and that... bla bla, we have to understand this and that... and in the end we are so tired in the head that we don't know what to think... so it is all deluded in to bla bla bla... Why do you for example involve Lionhart and so forth ? We are talking about the pope. Not trying to understand the complexity of the crusaded. The fact is that the Pope is a man of God, and he should know better - he should follow Jeusus - regardless of what ever some crusader freak ended up doing on his crusade. This is about the Pope - so there is no excuse for the pope among the actions of the individual crusaders, the kings or what have you. The fact is - no pope was ever so lacking in intelligence that he did not know the consequence of sending armies in to a village to massacre it in the name of jesus. What ever you say, there is no way that the pope did not know what he was doing. That is the bottom line, and i get sick to my stomach hearing how people talk the seriousness away, in all kinds of bla bla bla... just because - like i said, it goes against their feelings. To you it is not emotionally acceptable that the pope was a terrorist - and i can understand that that is hard to face ... but history is reality. All the bla bla bla in the world, how many years was it, 100 or 300 or 750... what ever. The fact is that is was repeated massacre of innocent people... Why would you ever want to talk that away in lots of contradicting bla bla bla... ?? I can not do that about Hitler and all the jews he masacred... if i say, oh.. maybe he did not kill all the children in the chamber, maybe he drowned them... so what ? Make any difference ? He is still a horrible character. Now just because this is the pope, it does not make it ok for the rest of the world. Only the catholic people and most christian need these excuses ... the rest look at the horrible crimes, and that is all... so disagree all you want, it seems very obvious why you disagree, and it is not because of facts but because of emotions... The facts are against the pope - on all sides and it always have been. People just ignore the reality because it is to horrible to take in... but the catholic Church is behind some of the worst horror in human history. The reason why you don't find this in Islam - is because in Islam bad is bad.... no compromise. That is why I love Islam - even I am not a Muslim. It is the truth, it is pure and clean. No horrible stuff can survive in Islam. I love Islam with all my heart - because any sign of bad - it is ripped of and thrown out. But in Christianity is is understood and discussed, and forgiven... so it pollutes... Does that mean that muslims dont do bad things ? No !! It means that there are bad things there as well as all other places, but the difference is that it is "ripped off" and "thrown away" - unlike with the pope that just continued and continued .... without nothing ever happening... Just look at any law in Islam - there is a consequence that will not be compromised. That is the true God - if there is a God, that is what he would be like. The bible said that it is better that you rip out your eye than to allow it to mislead you... so clearly it is talking about God. So what happened ? It all just gets diluted in to nothing.... where Christians today, are all about forgiving and forgetting what ever it is... ... even the most horrible person deserves a new chance in the name of Jesus. Well, that is just not true ! He deserves to burn in hell for his crimes !
  14. No basis in reality ? Did the Canon Law stop the pope from ordering 400 years of crusades ? No, it did not. Who and what exactly was it that was supposed to stop him from not following the canon law ? Is there a council ? And why did they not stop him ? Or are you saying that he did not break the canon law (or what ever you call this law) with his crusaded? I would be very carefuller claiming the latter. There is no such thing to stop a pope, and a pope has never been stoped. He did send soldiers to massacre Muslims for about 400 years repeatedly... in the name of Jesus !! Why did he not love them instead? They did not commit any sin, unless living in their own country is a sin... NO NO, the pope sent soldiers year after year, spending all the military budget on war - not war in his own country, but in other parts of the world were he had no business even going at all. What exactly is it in this canon law that ever stopped the Pope from anything ? You know, you say the accusations have no basis in reality - and i am tired of hearing that - because it is a sentence used when someone is insulted personally. You should use the sentence when it is a fact, not when ever your feelings are hurt. If your feelings are hurt, say that you feel this to be insulting - despite what I say is true. Don't try to construct a different reality. What ?? No punishment will help the victim ? You are now starting to be completely ridiculous, and so extreme that it almost hurtful to listen to you. How can you not see that revenge (a word that for you is only negative i suppose) rectifies that fear inside a raped woman. She will be scared until the day that horrible criminal is severely punished. Only then will she be able to regain some of the feeling of security that was taken away from her. Revenge, is to return the power to the victim, and it is very psychologically important. If you don't get it, you are mentally broken ... and it is for some people impossible to get back up... so you are so wrong that i can almost not believe I'm hearing this. People that suffer mentally after crimes like these in christian society's - are by the christian society denied revenge - because it is bad, so they continue to be afraid. They never get the power and security back because they are supposed to forgive ... what sick non sense...
  15. It does not matter if you turn your life around after you kill an innocent child or rape a young girl. No matter what you do - it is not going to un-rape the person. It is not going to white out the bad, or bring the dead back to life. Your sin is eternal, the pain of the victim is eternal, and so should your punishment be... I do not care if the rapist does something good for society after committing his evil act... the most important for society is to be relieved of such a person. The raped child does not need to be afraid of running in to him... Money made from selling drugs. People do not want to use that money... and in the same way, society do not want to use the labor of a rapist ... because he earned that bad conscience by rape... it is all bad ... and should be sent to hell ... where it all can burn... I appreciate your point. You talk about church and state being separate - well the pope that started the crusades is portrait much like a psycopath, should we believe history, so to me they could have benefited by the setup in Iran - where nothing can be allowed if it is not strictly in agreement with the Qur'an... so if that was the case, no crusades, no inquisition ... The model from the catholic church on the other hand is more along the lines of dictatorship, because it ment literally : if the pope wants to do it, nobody can object... that is not a joint state and church that is a crazy man running both...
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