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In the Name of God بسم الله

mutazili(wasil)

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mutazili(wasil) last won the day on December 2 2013

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About mutazili(wasil)

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    waleed.maverick

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  1. Akhi i had enough I am being called a nasibi and fake shia and was told that the debate is staged even by people who didn't read it . I am out of here now i was picked on by a salafi mujassim and a man thinking he is the mahdi(as) i am out of here akhi ws ps: i lost my temper and i abused everyone in the chat room . I am going to be banned anyway good luck akhi
  2. Salam alaykom If the admin allows me then i will post everyday parts of this debate to show who really won the debate I will start by the discussion regarding abu hurairah first and i will explain why afterwards inshallah. It's a great debate that Farid and his friends claim to have won but i will let you judge for yourselves: I start with my first post about abu hurairah : please discuss this in an other thread salam alaykom I don't know what rule did you base your view upon whne you said it's easier for ibrahim ibn hashim to lie upon other people rather than masoomin (as)? any scientific proof? or is this just from "kees" (purse or wallet) of farid? your other arguments are already answered in my previous post so here it it , no need for repetition: http://islamic-forum...indpost&p=97688 as for ahmed ibn hanbal and his one million memorized hadith then it's relevant because you are amazed at 30 thousand answer (even though i know this is not your main argument but still it's in the topic) we know thatrasool Allah(saww) when he saw so many lies attributedto him he said : whoever lied upon me deliberately then let him book his chair in hell (rough translation) it's time to start with abu hurairah now so i start with a small dose : in sahih muslim chapter of jumu'a-chapter of "fadhl" yawm al-jumu'a hadith number 854: 854 وحدثنا قتيبة بن سعيد حدثنا المغيرة يعني الحزامي عن أبي الزناد عن الأعرج عن أبي هريرة أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال خير يوم طلعت عليه الشمس يوم الجمعة فيه خلق آدم وفيه أدخل الجنة وفيه أخرج منها ولا تقوم الساعة إلا في يوم الجمعة abu hurairah said : the prophet (saww) SAID : the best day in which the sun has risen is the Friday, in it Adam was created ...etc but in sahih abi khuzaimah abu hurarah said : محمد بن يحيى ، حدثنا قال : نا محمد بن يوسف ، ثنا الأوزاعي ، عن يحيى ، عن أبي سلمة ، عن أبي هريرة : خير يوم طلعت فيه الشمس يوم الجمعة ، فيه خلق آدم ، وفيه أسكن الجنة ، وفيه أخرج منها ، وفيه تقوم الساعة ، قال : قلت له : أشيء سمعته من رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ؟ قال : بل شيء حدثناه كعب mohamed ibn yahya narrated mohamed ibn ussof narrated al-awza'i from yahya from abi salamah from abu hurairah he said : the best day in which the sun has risen is the Friday ... so i asked him( abu salamah asking abu hurairah) : did you hear this from rasool Allah ?? he ( abu hurairah) said :it's rather something Kaab(Kaab al-ahbar ) told me !!! here's the hadith from sahih ibn khuzaimah : محمد بن يحيى ، حدثنا قال : نا محمد بن يوسف ، ثنا الأوزاعي ، عن يحيى ، عن أبي سلمة ، عن أبي هريرة : خير يوم طلعت فيه الشمس يوم الجمعة ، فيه خلق آدم ، وفيه أسكن الجنة ، وفيه أخرج منها ، وفيه تقوم الساعة ، قال : قلت له : أشيء سمعته من رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ؟ قال : بل شيء حدثناه كعب so did abu hurairah hear this from the prophet or from Kaab and if it's from kaab how could he attribute it to rasool Allah (saww) ??? but more confusion is coming from the book of malik : muwatta malik : 243 وحدثني عن مالك عن يزيد بن عبد الله بن الهاد عن محمد بن إبراهيم بن الحارث التيمي عن أبي سلمة بن عبد الرحمن بن عوف عن أبي هريرة أنه قال خرجت إلى الطور فلقيت كعب الأحبار فجلست معه فحدثني عن التوراة وحدثته عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فكان فيما حدثته أن قلت قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم خير يوم طلعت عليه الشمس يوم الجمعة فيه خلق آدم narrated malik from yazeed ibn abdilleh ibn alhaad from mohamed ibn ibrahim ibn alharith altaimi from abi salamah ibn abdirrahman ibn awf that abu hurairah said : i went out... so i met Kaab Al-Ahbar so i sat with him and he told me about tawraat (Torah) and i told him about rasool Allah , and amongst what i told him i said : the prophet (saww) said: the best day in which the son has risen is the The Friday ...the hadith awaiting your comments farid Farid answered
  3. Yes such hadiths are narrated in the shia books but they make no sense at all and i find them unreliable , Majlissi felt this so he interpreted these hadith in a way by saying : what was meant is the narration of the opponents in general and not every narration , anyway here's a few compiled by majlissi in bihar al-anwar : :18 - وعنه بإسناده عن الصدوق، عن ابن المتوكل، عن السعد آبادي، عن البرقي، عن ابن فضال، عن الحسن بن جهم قال: قلت للعبد الصالح عليه السلام: هل يسعنا فيما يرد علينا منكم إلا التسليم لكم؟ فقال عليه السلام: لا والله لا يسعكم إلا التسليم لنا. قلت: فيروى عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام شئ ويروى عنه خلافه فبأيهما نأخذ؟ قال: خذ بما خالف القوم، وما وافق القوم فاجتنبه. 19 - وبهذا الإسناد عن البرقي، عن أبيه، عن محمد بن عبد الله قال: قلت للرضا عليه السلام: كيف نصنع بالخبرين المختلفين؟ فقال: إذا ورد عليكم حديثان مختلفان فانظروا ما يخالف منهما العامة فخذوه، وانظروا ما يوافق أخبارهم فدعوه. 20 - وبإسناده عن الصدوق، عن أبيه، عن سعد، عن أيوب بن نوح، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن عبد الرحمن بن أبي عبد الله، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: إذا ورد عليكم حديثان مختلفان فاعرضوهما على كتاب الله فما وافق كتاب الله فخذوه وما خالف كتاب الله فذروه، فإن لم تجدوهما في كتاب الله فاعرضوهما على أخبار العامة فما وافق أخبارهم فذروه وما خالف أخبارهم فخذوه. ws
  4. Akhbari scholars like istrabadi etc ...
  5. it's ok akhi , my bad first hadith about omar: can be classed hasan by sunni standards second hadith about abu bakr is weak by sunni standards third hadith is also weak by sunni standards ws
  6. No i didn't memorize it but hadiths about fadhail are well known to most people familiar with hadiths and bukhari doesn't contain this hadith , if you think it does then please present it from a link to al-bukhari . all i'm saying is that you need to check your sources a bit more that's all
  7. Yes i was not born in the west but i am sure everyone here understands what i'm saying including you . you are refusing to understand the difference between the two forms of asking help, i tried to make it easier for you but you started telling me about the linguistic meaning of the word dua even though it's clear i was talking about the religious meaning of it. You are confusing shafaa which is the great intercession that happens in the day of judgement not the intercession we are on about here. U accused me of rejecting tawassol even though i am pro-tawassol but with great care and special conditions that dont lead to shirk. I gave you two hadiths explaining how intercession is done. Still you are not trying to understand and you are trying to use weak and contradictory arguments. I explain more : when you are ill you resort to a doctor who is able to prescribe some meds that can help you heal, when you are drowning (god forbid) you ask the people on a boat nearby to help you, many example of the seeking-of-help based on Causality , "asbaab" that are there that can help you , ali(as) is not from these "asbab" because it's silly to ask the imam (as) to help you being cured or help you save yourself from drowning , there's direct "asbab" that are there to provide help. And even these "asbab" are created by Allah so Allah created the power "to do" in everything capable of doing , still it's silly to believe that a believer who doesn't know how to swim.has a bigger chance of being saved from drowning than a kaffir who knows how to swim that's all understood but the other form of seeking help is the form that's based on delegation and complete submission to Allah through asking him alone directly or through intercession and this one is for Allah alone , like when someone has cancer and asks Allah to cure him , when a man has a problem that only Allah can solve, then nobody but Allah must be asked Anyway this has become a futile discussion so I pray that Allah guides you and me and protect us from shirk ws
  8. You never said no ! but you mocked that a drowning man can ask for help from Allah rather than others , then when i asked you : shall they seek help from ali(as) instead you say : i didn't say no! meaning you say yes ? isn't it a bit strange ! you said : "they can ask our imams for shafa'a " ! so imams and not Allah ! And shafaa has nothing to do with drowning ! shafaa to help a drowning person or the sick!!! do u know what shafaa means akhi ? if you mean intercession then intercession is a way of asking Allah alone through rasool Allah (saww) or the imams etc ... it's not asking the imams or the prophet to help you but you are using them as wasila to Allah , meaning to ask Allah to help you. i explain in easy terms : Du'a can only be to Allah alone is this simpler? then let's say :there's two kinds of seeking help : -in mean of du'a -in mean of causality : doctors , police , soldiers whatever ! Intercession is a form of Du'a to Allah alone but through his beloved slaves : rasool Allah(saww) and the imams (as) .... I show you some hadith on how tawassol should be done and to show u what is real tawassol : From him(Ali Ibn Ibrahim ) from his father from hussein ibn saeed from fadhala from aban and muawya ibn wahb they said: Abu Abdilleh (as) said : when you stand up to pray say : Oh Allah I present to you Mohamed (saww) for my needs and i direct myself to you through him , so make me high in status in this life and the hereafter and from those close to you. Make my prayer accepted and my sins forgiven and my supplication heard. U are indeed all-forgiving all-merciful. ref : Al-Kafi volume 3 page 309 Verdict :Hadith sahih Ali ibn Ibrahim from his father from ibn abi umair from Muawya ibn Ammar he said: Abu abdilleh (as) started by saying : Oh Ammar did you know that a man came to the commander of the faithful (Ali (as)) and complained about lateness in answering his Dua. So ameer al-momineen said to him: where are you from the Dua that is answered quickly ?!! so the man asked : And what is that ? he (as) said : Say oh Allah i ask you through your majestic name the greatest and loftiest and the dearest to you, the one that is treasured and hidden : the light the truth and the greatest proof which is light with light and light from light and light upon light and light above light and a light that lights up every darkness and breaks every hardship and every rebellious devil and every stubborn tyrant which earth can't support it and sky cannot lift it, with which the anxious feels secure and bad magic becomes void and also the trespassing of trespassers and the envy of every envious and from its greatness shakes the earth and the see and with it the ship can be boarded when the Angel mentions it so waves don't hurt it. It is your greatest name the loftiest the loftiest(twice), the big light with which you called yourself and encompassed your throne and i present mohamed (saww) and his Ahlbait(as) before you , i ask you through them (or by them) to send your prayers upon mohamed and aal mohamed and to grant me so and so.. Ref: Al-kafi 2 page 582 Verdict : Hdith sahih ws
  9. Akhi wait a second : I am not against tawassol but you are misunderstanding tawassol and how it should be done! I am pro-tawassol but we shouldn't confuse tawassol with shirk . I explain : you argued: I said : can they (the examples ) seek help from ali (as) instead ?? the answer is no so why not ??? can you explain ? awaiting your answer then i'll get to more explaining so bear with me please
  10. I ve never heard that this hadith in al-bukhari akhi, please double check your information the hadith the OP mentioned from okbah ibn amir can be found in many books and here's the sanad from mustadrak : أخبرني عبد الله بن محمد بن إسحاق الخزاعي ، بمكة ، ثنا أبو يحيى بن أبي ميسرة ، ثنا عبد الله بن يزيد المقري ، ثنا حيوة بن شريح ، عنبكر بن عمرو ، عن مشرح بن هاعان ، عن عقبة بن عامر - رضي الله عنه - قال : سمعت رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم - يقول : " لو كان بعدي نبي لكان عمر بن الخطاب " .
  11. It's the same point , whatever negates this negates the other , look! you failed to realize something : there's two kinds of seeking help 1-seeking help in the sense of complete reliance and submission and or more accurately delegation and this is only from Allah 2- seeking help in the sense of causality which can be from anybody or actions like when Allah says : "rely on prayer and fasting " , here we can ask for help times and times again everyday from other people. Now what explains this more is just the example you gave which led us to differentiation between the help sought from Allah and should never be sought from anyone else and the help that we seek everyday from others. you used the help required in the sense of causality to prove an other kind of help that can only be sought from Allah and this is a problem in methodology. I believe you speak arabic so read what sayed al-khoei says here (read from page 478: only couple of pages ) http://rafed.net/booklib/view.php?type=c_fbook&b_id=691&page=478
  12. will ali(as) help a drowning person or someone suffering with cancer ?
  13. Twassol is something and saying : ya ali(as) help me or give me health etc is something else. please avoid calling upon other than Allah for help as i don't want you to bear this great sin
  14. First step would be : leaving all ghulu and giving more importance to tawheed Allah and avoid any shirk be it small or big
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