baqar

This thread should be deleted. The very title of the thread is reprehensible.
 
How on earth can the killing of an innocent person, which every civilian is, be justified, in any manner or in any code of law?
 
And how can anyone even ask such a question? Allowing such threads to 'live' their  term shows that the killing of civilians could possibly be permitted.
 
But it just cannot be.

You have no idea what yiu are talking about.
 
 
Yes  he does.
 
The Christian Trinity consist of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
 
Placid's Trinity consist of God, the Word and the Holy Spirit.
 
That is the only difference.
 
Please read all relevant posts, in particular 63, 65 and 71.   

But the problem that I see with the whole thing is that even if half of that video is true, then how much of the gospels are hype?  

Absolutely.  This is nothing but madness. We should all request the mods to ask our friends why their hatred is so intense.
 
Until then, my request to everyone is as follows:-
 
Please don't reply to such posts or to anyone who does not talk to you politely and rationally.
 
Ignore evil and evil will fade away before the end of its natural term.
 
Some of us do not have as big a brain as we think we do.

I am afraid you are not being entirely fair to them. The only way you can convince them is by polite and courteous conversation. I think I have already pointed this out to you before.
As for the verses you have quoted, I am sure you are aware that quoting the Quran out of context is not entirely meaningful.
 
Please note that 
occasionally the Quran also speaks well both of Jews and Christians, and  the verses you have quoted refer, in most cases, to the Jews & Christians in the context of revelation, not to every J/C from Adam till this day.    The fact that the Quran occasionally speaks well of them, is evidence that it does not wish to tarnish all Jews & Christians with the same brush. 
 
I hope you will appreciate my point in trying to make our discourse more effective, congenial and useful.  

And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and christians) but must believe in him ['Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allah and a human being] before his ['Îsa (Jesus) عليه السلام) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he ['Îsa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them.
O people of the Scripture (christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh ) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.
What nonsense are you talking about placid? God stipulated that he is only ONE
Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
"He begets not, nor was He begotten;
"And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."
So what nonsense are you going on about trying to prove that Quran is pushing forward trinity? Are you seriously that illiterate? 
 

Eastern Orthodox are the same as Catholics. They venerate the Blessed Virgin equally to us.

Hi Placid
 
I have already pointed out to you that your statement "When the verse says 'Say not three', it is acknowledging that there are three" is illogical. There is absolutely no logic in that statement. And as I also said, the Quran is, on the contrary, rejecting the Trinity in that statement.
 
But there is more in your post that is false.   You said that 'it' is acknowledging that there are THREE in heaven.  Who is 'it' in that statement there?
 
Your use of your word 'it' in that statement is actually quite misleading and deceptive. 
 
Because 'it' in the English language is singular - not plural. Yet you have two different verses from two different scriptures which, according to you, lead to that conclusion.
 
'It' can only mean either the Quran or John 5:7, but not both.
 
Now, if you are trying to say that
 the Quran is telling Muslims that there are three in heaven, you  must justify your statement  by producing logical arguments from the Quran.  John 5:7 is telling Muslims that there are three in heaven, well, we all know that John doesn't tell Muslims anything. 
It is not fair that you are combining the two and then saying that this is what the Quran says and one billion Muslims are absolute fools and you, Placid, are there to set things right for them.
 
I don't mind your believing anything you wish, and if you wish to say that one billion Muslims are fools and you have discovered the truth, you are entitled to do that as well. No problems.
 
But I am afraid your point needs to be supported by logical arguments. Outside this site, you can say what you wish. But here, if you wish to debunk Islamic beliefs, please produce arguments from scriptures that we follow. 
 
By presenting one line from the Quran and another line from the Bible and then claiming that this is what the Quran says, you are making a mockery of the teachings of Islam and deliberately trying to falsify things. 
 
In fact, you and I both know only too well that you have been doing this for quite some time. And as I told you earlier, in my view, the reason why you have been getting by so far is partly because of the length of your posts. Most people generally miss the point you are  trying to make.
 
However, if you think that the Quran supports your thinking, please produce logical arguments to that effect. There should be no problems with that!
 
By the way, your son was talking about something completely different.
 
While you were talking about some sort of a TRINITY that exists in Islam and one billion Muslims refusing to accept it, your son was talking about the place of Jesus in Islam.  That is a different topic altogether.
 
To end this post, please allow me to say once again that if you wish to insist that there indeed is a TRINITY in Islam and that Muslims have completely misunderstood the Quran, do please enlighten us with the truth as you see it. This site is generally a free for all. You can say what you want.  
 
But please don't mix two different scriptures to make your point.
 
In closing, if you think that one billion Muslims are wrong, please prove your point only from the Quran.
 
Thanks  
 
baqar 

Absolutely.  This is nothing but madness. We should all request the mods to ask our friends why their hatred is so intense.
 
Until then, my request to everyone is as follows:-
 
Please don't reply to such posts or to anyone who does not talk to you politely and rationally.
 
Ignore evil and evil will fade away before the end of its natural term.
 
Some of us do not have as big a brain as we think we do.

(bismillah)
 
قال علي عليه السلام: مَن ظَنَّ بِكَ خَيراً فَصَدِّق ظَنَّهُ
 
Imam Ali (A.S) says: If a person has a good idea about you make his idea be true. (Nahj al-Balaghah, p. 653)

Absolutely.  This is nothing but madness. We should all request the mods to ask our friends why their hatred is so intense.
 
Until then, my request to everyone is as follows:-
 
Please don't reply to such posts or to anyone who does not talk to you politely and rationally.
 
Ignore evil and evil will fade away before the end of its natural term.
 
Some of us do not have as big a brain as we think we do.

I am afraid you are not being entirely fair to them. The only way you can convince them is by polite and courteous conversation. I think I have already pointed this out to you before.
As for the verses you have quoted, I am sure you are aware that quoting the Quran out of context is not entirely meaningful.
 
Please note that 
occasionally the Quran also speaks well both of Jews and Christians, and  the verses you have quoted refer, in most cases, to the Jews & Christians in the context of revelation, not to every J/C from Adam till this day.    The fact that the Quran occasionally speaks well of them, is evidence that it does not wish to tarnish all Jews & Christians with the same brush. 
 
I hope you will appreciate my point in trying to make our discourse more effective, congenial and useful.  

Let us not get personal,  my friend.

Every individual will be judged on the basis of his own merit, not whether he lives in the West or in the East.  Even if what you say is true, as Ethereal has pointed out, we need to communicate with non-Muslims in a manner that is appropriate to the sensitivity of the subject.  And believe me, religion is a very sensitive subject. Religious discussions are the most sensitive and prone to give rise to unprecedented violence and hurt.  
 
The Quran admonishes Muslims very forcefully in regard to discussions with people of other faiths.
 
[16:125] Invite men to the way of the Lord with wisdom and grace in the kindest manner. The Lord knows well those who have strayed and those who are on the right path.  
 
The above verse is for debates and discussions with everyone, regardless of his beliefs - Christians, Jews, Buddhists, atheists and everyone else.. 
 
And please  note very carefully that the Quran seems to require extra consideration in respect to discussions with Jews and Christians.  
 
As you can see in the following verse:-
 
[29:46]  Do not argue with the People of the Book, except in the best possible manner.  Except with those who have dealt wrongfully with you. And tell them "We believe what has been sent down to us as well as to you.   Our God is the same as your God. To Him do we submit".    
 
I hope you will be more careful in the future.
 
 
If you remember the rules of grammar you studied in school, I hope you might still remember the difference between a proper noun and a common noun.
 
The word 'Islam' in that verse is taken by some scholars not as a proper noun, but as a common noun. In other words, it just means 'submission'.
 
Verse [3:67], for example, says that Abraham was a Muslim. Does it mean that he was a Muslim in the sense you and I are. I don't think so.
 
In other words, the word 'Muslim' is not to be taken as a proper noun but as a common noun.  And therefore it just means that Abraham was totally committed to unquestioned obedience to God.
 
The same is seen by some scholars to apply to the word 'Islam' in [3:19] and [3:85].  
 
If you do not wish to accept the grammatical point I have made, please note that the verse does not say that Islam is a true religion to the exclusion of all others. 
 
In fact, it would be contrary to the Quran's overall approach to rule out a religion which also believes in submission to God, as unacceptable.
 
The life style of the people of any particular religion cannot be taken to censure that religion.
 
Religion apart, remember that adage - courtesy begets courtesy. 

Very nice, brother
 
Masha' Allah

Very nice, brother
 
Masha' Allah

About time!
 
Do you want me to remind you in the month of Ramadan?
 
No fish allowed either.

I must say you have a very strange sense of banter.
 
Of course, it was disrespectful - extremely so.  
 
I am not sure about you because you have a very strange sense of  banter.
 
But no other Christian would like anyone to refer to Jesus as the 'Jesus fella'. 

When we think of slavery now a days we think of kidnapping people from one continent and bringing them to a new land where they know nothing. Whip them into submission and force them to work to live. That's not how the OT portrays servants during that era.
 
When slavery was abolished in the States many stayed and remained "slaves" because their master charged them more for what they ate and where they slept than what they made, so they really couldn't afford to leave. Freedom was not free.
 
Those who were not ready were those who had big crops, made big money using slaves. To hire Americans to do what the slaves did would cut too deep into profits.
 
Here in Canada they import Mexicans to do the work Canadians are "too good" to do, and it doesn't pay enough.

In many ways the daughter of Placid is better than the son.

Hi,
The Daughter of Placid has never been on Shiachat, --- She is a Monitor and substitute teacher at a High School. She is a Deaconness in her Church and she has a weekly Bible Study in her home, which her mother (my wife) attends.
Both Son and Daughter have always been involved in helping and relating to others. I guess that is part of our nature so I enjoy the activities of them both. --- They are different in activities, but equal in the family.
In our relationship as the Family of God, we would call Clynn a ‘Sister in the Lord.’

This is in response to David's query in another thread about slavery in Islam.
 
I think all religions did address the problem of slavery. But the times were different. They couldn't do it in the manner that Lincoln did as people were probably not ready for it. 
 
Islam did not make a general announcement à la Lincoln, probably because it was not necessarily the most effective method for the day. 
 
If you think about it, actually, an announcement of emancipation is never enough to stamp out slavery. Look what happened in the US. Lincoln released slaves from bondage. But the blacks were discriminated very openly until the nineteen mid-sixties until Martin Luther King stepped in - 100 years after Lincoln. And they are still treated very badly. Lincoln's policy had no effect for at least 100 years.
 
There is virtual slavery and exploitation all over the world even today. The Hispanics and blacks in America, the gypsies in Germany and other parts of Europe and everyone who looks different is treated differently almost everywhere in the world.
 
Well, since all these three religions were sent by God, I find t hard to believe that God would permit exploitation in any of them.   I cannot give you the details for Judaism or Christianity. I am sure someone else will. But I can (or at least try to) give you some of the steps Islam took to alleviate the conditions of all exploited people including slaves.
 
The three  major steps were 
 
The words of the Prophet and our Imams about the treatment of not only slaves, but everyone who is at a disadvantage relative to you.  But I do not have any on the top of my head.   
·         By example : - The Prophet did not outright ban slavery but he treated his own slaves like family. A slave by the name of Zaid bin Harith had been sold by someone and ended up in the household of the Prophet. The Prophet treated him like a son, so much so  that he came to be known as his adopted son. Can you believe that anyone in the modern world would allow even a servant to be known as a son? I don't think so.
 
Further to the point, when Zaid's father finally located his son, he traveled all the way to Medina to get his son back. He met the Prophet who allowed the father to take his son back, if he wanted to.
 
When Zaid was asked what he wanted to di, he flatly refused to go with his father. He said that no one could give him the love that the Prophet had given him.
 
Another example is that of the maid Fizza. The Prophet's daughter Fatima and the slave Fizza shared the house duties - they took over the other's tasks every alternate day.  And Fizza was not denied access to education, like slaves generally are.
 
Her knowledge of the Quran was equal to that of the highest scholar that you can think of. She knew it by heart and quoted verses as and when she deemed fit.
 
Do you think any other master gives   his slaves any education, except perhaps the very basic? I don't think so.
 
That was emancipation of slaves by example.
 
 
·         Quranic verses
 
 
·         [4:33] We have appointed heirs to (the wealth of deceased) parents and relatives. And for those whom of your right hands with whom you have an agreement, give them their due. 
 
The expression 'whom your right hands possess' is the Quranic expression for slaves. 
 
In this verse, the Quran expects slaves to share in the master's inheritance.
 
The verse also indicates that slaves are not to be treated as chattel rather than as people under contract (agreement). 
 
·         [4:36] Worship God and no one other than Him. Be good to your parents, relatives, orphans, the needy, neighbors - the ear ones and the strangers, to the fellow-traveler, the wayfarer, and those whom your right hands possess (slaves). God does not love the proud and the boastful.
 
Here slaves are on an equal footing with parents and everyone else in the treatment they should expect from their master.
 
·         [24:32] And marry those among your male and female slaves who are single and righteous.  If they are poor, God will enrich them out of His bounty. God is Bountiful and All-Knowing.
 
This verse seems to encourage masters to marry their sons to slave girls and their daughters to male slaves.
 
Has anyone heard of masters marring into slaves?
 
Never, they are known to abuse them sexually but never to marry them.
 
It s even more noteworthy that Muslims are being encouraged not only to get females  slaves as brides for their sons but even more  amazing marrying their daughters to slave men. 
 
Unheard of, I must say.  
 
·         [24:33] Those of you who cannot afford to marry, let them remain chaste. And those of your slaves who ask for a writing (letter of freedom), let them go, if you see any good in them - (if you think they are able to live on their own). And give them some of the wealth that God has given you.
 
And do not constrain your slave girls into sin, if they wish to remain chaste - in order to seek the good of this world. But those who are compelled will find God forgiving and compassionate.
 
If a slave girl is led into sin against he will, she will not be taken to task.
 
·         [90:12-13] And what will make you comprehend what the uphill road is. It is the freeing of a slave.
 
Here the emancipation of slaves in being encouraged. 
 
·         [16:71]  God has given some of you more wealth than others. Yet some of you don't share your wealth with those whom your right hands possess (slaves) so that they share equally. Do they deny the blessings that God has given them? 
 
Here, the Quran is condemning those who do not share their wealth with their slaves.
 
Not only that - you are expected to give so much to your slaves that they have as much wealth as you do.
 
Incredible, isn't it?

The good manners and eloquence of the Ahlulbayt is far removed from the attitude of the first post of this topic. This doesn't help any form of debate or dialogue.

This is in response to David's query in another thread about slavery in Islam.
 
I think all religions did address the problem of slavery. But the times were different. They couldn't do it in the manner that Lincoln did as people were probably not ready for it. 
 
Islam did not make a general announcement à la Lincoln, probably because it was not necessarily the most effective method for the day. 
 
If you think about it, actually, an announcement of emancipation is never enough to stamp out slavery. Look what happened in the US. Lincoln released slaves from bondage. But the blacks were discriminated very openly until the nineteen mid-sixties until Martin Luther King stepped in - 100 years after Lincoln. And they are still treated very badly. Lincoln's policy had no effect for at least 100 years.
 
There is virtual slavery and exploitation all over the world even today. The Hispanics and blacks in America, the gypsies in Germany and other parts of Europe and everyone who looks different is treated differently almost everywhere in the world.
 
Well, since all these three religions were sent by God, I find t hard to believe that God would permit exploitation in any of them.   I cannot give you the details for Judaism or Christianity. I am sure someone else will. But I can (or at least try to) give you some of the steps Islam took to alleviate the conditions of all exploited people including slaves.
 
The three  major steps were 
 
The words of the Prophet and our Imams about the treatment of not only slaves, but everyone who is at a disadvantage relative to you.  But I do not have any on the top of my head.   
·         By example : - The Prophet did not outright ban slavery but he treated his own slaves like family. A slave by the name of Zaid bin Harith had been sold by someone and ended up in the household of the Prophet. The Prophet treated him like a son, so much so  that he came to be known as his adopted son. Can you believe that anyone in the modern world would allow even a servant to be known as a son? I don't think so.
 
Further to the point, when Zaid's father finally located his son, he traveled all the way to Medina to get his son back. He met the Prophet who allowed the father to take his son back, if he wanted to.
 
When Zaid was asked what he wanted to di, he flatly refused to go with his father. He said that no one could give him the love that the Prophet had given him.
 
Another example is that of the maid Fizza. The Prophet's daughter Fatima and the slave Fizza shared the house duties - they took over the other's tasks every alternate day.  And Fizza was not denied access to education, like slaves generally are.
 
Her knowledge of the Quran was equal to that of the highest scholar that you can think of. She knew it by heart and quoted verses as and when she deemed fit.
 
Do you think any other master gives   his slaves any education, except perhaps the very basic? I don't think so.
 
That was emancipation of slaves by example.
 
 
·         Quranic verses
 
 
·         [4:33] We have appointed heirs to (the wealth of deceased) parents and relatives. And for those whom of your right hands with whom you have an agreement, give them their due. 
 
The expression 'whom your right hands possess' is the Quranic expression for slaves. 
 
In this verse, the Quran expects slaves to share in the master's inheritance.
 
The verse also indicates that slaves are not to be treated as chattel rather than as people under contract (agreement). 
 
·         [4:36] Worship God and no one other than Him. Be good to your parents, relatives, orphans, the needy, neighbors - the ear ones and the strangers, to the fellow-traveler, the wayfarer, and those whom your right hands possess (slaves). God does not love the proud and the boastful.
 
Here slaves are on an equal footing with parents and everyone else in the treatment they should expect from their master.
 
·         [24:32] And marry those among your male and female slaves who are single and righteous.  If they are poor, God will enrich them out of His bounty. God is Bountiful and All-Knowing.
 
This verse seems to encourage masters to marry their sons to slave girls and their daughters to male slaves.
 
Has anyone heard of masters marring into slaves?
 
Never, they are known to abuse them sexually but never to marry them.
 
It s even more noteworthy that Muslims are being encouraged not only to get females  slaves as brides for their sons but even more  amazing marrying their daughters to slave men. 
 
Unheard of, I must say.  
 
·         [24:33] Those of you who cannot afford to marry, let them remain chaste. And those of your slaves who ask for a writing (letter of freedom), let them go, if you see any good in them - (if you think they are able to live on their own). And give them some of the wealth that God has given you.
 
And do not constrain your slave girls into sin, if they wish to remain chaste - in order to seek the good of this world. But those who are compelled will find God forgiving and compassionate.
 
If a slave girl is led into sin against he will, she will not be taken to task.
 
·         [90:12-13] And what will make you comprehend what the uphill road is. It is the freeing of a slave.
 
Here the emancipation of slaves in being encouraged. 
 
·         [16:71]  God has given some of you more wealth than others. Yet some of you don't share your wealth with those whom your right hands possess (slaves) so that they share equally. Do they deny the blessings that God has given them? 
 
Here, the Quran is condemning those who do not share their wealth with their slaves.
 
Not only that - you are expected to give so much to your slaves that they have as much wealth as you do.
 
Incredible, isn't it?

Bismillah.
 
Salaam to all.
 
The first weekly Hadith is from Imam al-Husain (p):
 
"لَوْ شَتَمَني رَجُلٌ في هذِهِ الاْذُنِ، وَ أَوْمي إلي الْيُمْني، وَ اعْتَذَرَ لي في الاْخْري لَقَبِلْتُ ذلِكَ مِنْهُ، وَ ذلِكَ أَنَّ أَميرَ الْمُؤْمِنينَ - عليه السلام - حَدَّثَني أَنَّهُ سَمِعَ جَدّي رَسُولَ اللهِ (صلي الله عليه وآله) يَقُولُ: لا يَرِدُ الْحَوْضَ مَنْ لَمْ يَقْبَلِ الْعُذرَ مِنْ مُحِقٍّ أَوْ مُبْطِل. "
 
“If someone mistreats me in one ear and excuse himself in other one, I accept his excuse, because the prince of the faithful imam Ali (peace be upon him) said me that he has heard from my grandfather the messenger of God (peace be upon him and his family) who said: “Whoever does not accept the excuse of someone else, justified or unjustified, will not enter to the Kothar spring (pool).”
 
 
«Si quelqu'un m'insulte dans une oreille et s'excuser dans un autre, J'accepte ses excuses, parce que le prince des fidèles imam Ali (que la paix soit sur lui) m'a dit qu'il avait entendu parler de mon grand-père, le Messager de Dieu (paix soit sur lui et sa famille) qui a dit: «Celui qui n'accepte pas l'excuse de quelqu'un d'autre, justifiée ou non, ne sera pas entrer dans le fontaine Kothar (piscine)."."
 
 
Source: Bīhār al-Anwār, vol.43, p.261.
 
With Duas.
 
Narsis.