baqar

Hi Baqar
 
That is the whole point.
 
Non-Muslims who believe that there are errors in the Quran should also note that many non-Muslim scholars also believe that the compilation was not free of "human errors". So while some non-Muslims believe in the errors, they forget that as long as they are within the range of acceptable errors, by their own logic, they cannot possibly be lethal. Because after all, if we are talking about human errors during compilation, it may rule out the perfection that Muslims impute to the Quran, but the overall substance and veracity of the faith.  
 
I had been hoping to get some answers from some very knowledgeable people but I have not been able to.
 
I have therefore prepared these notes for anyone who is interested to listen rather than just keep repeating the same mantra by rote.
       
To begin with, the Quran's linguistic style is not everyone's cup of tea. If read without specialized knowledge of its style, it will scarcely be of help to aid the reader in a clear understanding of the subject matter. 
 
There are literally hundreds of examples of  grammatical and compositional short-cuts causing ambiguities that it  impossible to summarize. 
 
The style of the Quran can best be described as conversational.  Since every individual has a style of its own, so too the style of the Quran has one entirely its own.
 
So one might ask what is the purpose of a book that is so difficult to understand. Well, firstly, the Quran is extremely clear on matters of prime importance - such as the need to obey God and ethics and morals.  And that is all one needs to lead a life acceptable to God.
 
The verses on inheritance relate to law and for law, you always need to consult with a law expert anyway. One would think that it may have  expected the public to ask the Prophet in matters of doubt. Many people surely would have asked and among those who asked, some remembered correctly while others either truly or deliberately forgot.
 
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Let me give you a couple of examples` that might highlight the very individual style of the Quran.
Firstly, a simple one.
 
In [20:103], there is a very obvious ambiguity.
 
Taken literally, the verse says "You have tarried only ten".
 
The text does not say "ten" what - ten days, ten weeks, ten months, ten years or ten centuries.
 
So while most translators think it means "days", Shakir disagrees and thinks in terms of "centuries".
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Next a little more involved example:-
 
In verse [42:23],  the Prophet is asked to tell the people that he expects no reward from them except "love for relatives".  Ideally, it should have also said whose relatives. But it doesn't - a definite lack of clarity.
 
So let us see how different people have interpreted this verse.  The different translations (or rather interpretations) can be grouped in four types, each meaning different things.
 
GROUP  A 
 
Hilali Khan gives a very strange meaning  "No reward do I ask of you except to be kind to me for my kinship to you".
  
GROUP  B
 
Khalifa is point blank. What Pickthall, Yusuf Ali and Arberry were trying to say with their tongues under the teeth, Khalifa says point blank - be kind to your own relatives.
 
GROUP  C
 
(A1) Pickthall says  -  Say "I ask of you no fee save loving kindness among kinsfolk".
What on earth is that supposed to mean? In the English language, the statement would mean "kindness and compassion  for your own kinsfolk".  
       
(A2) Yusuf Ali says "No reward I ask of you for this except love of those near of kin". Yusuf Ali is not very clear either. He does not say clearly - whose kin.
 
(A3) Arberry is likewise ambiguous " I do not ask a reward for this except love for the kinsfolk".
 
These three are all similar. And none of them says very clearly whose relatives are implied.
 
GROUP  D
 
In this group, you have the trio of Palmer, Rodwell and Sale who change the meaning altogether.
 
No longer we have the ambiguity of Pickthall, Arberry and Yusuf Ali.  Nor the "your relatives" meaning directly given by Khalifa or the very strange meaning of Hilali Khan.
 
These three are absolutely clear. The Quran is asking the Prophet to ask for love and affection for his own relatives. All of them say that the Prophet's relatives are implied.
 
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 So we have four different meanings for one verse by a set of different people.
 
·        Hilali Khan :- Be kind to me
·        Khalifa :-        Be kind to your own relatives.
·        Pickthall, Arberry  and Yusuf Ali - uncommitted
·        Palmer, Rodwell & Sale - Be kind to my relatives.
 
Four different sets of meanings. And why these differences?  
 
Because of the Quran's unique and difficult to understand style.
 
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The Quran is full of difficult to understand verses. The style and grammar are all their own. The Quran would have hoped people would ask the Prophet for the intended meaning.
 
Anyway, among  all the problems non-Muslims have with the Quran, the problem with the verses on inheritance is the weakest. The linguistic style of those verses is even more difficult than the rest of the Quran. 
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As far as the verses on inheritance are concerned, they represent yet another example of a very complex and hard to translate and  ambiguous style. 
 
Plain sense, however, tells me that the charge by some people that the fractions that constitute the distribution of the inheritance do not add up to 1, is plain nonsense.
 
So why did I say that the charge on these verses is the weakest of all the alleged errors in the Quran?
 
Simple:
 
At the last few sermons the Prophet gave before his death, there were reportedly more than 100,000 people at the speeches. Even if that figure might include people from outside Medina, the local Muslim population at the time of the Prophet's  death could certainly be expected to be at least several thousand.
 
Now consider the following:-
(1) In any random sample of, say,  1,000 people- whether you are in China, Arabia, America, Europe, Africa or wherever - there will always be many people who would be good at numeracy - that is, mathematical competence . That is today and has always been statistical truth.  So if the fractions in those verses do not add up to 1, it is hardly probable that no one would have pointed out the discrepancy to the Prophet.
(2) Secondly,  it is mandatory for Muslims to write a Will before they die. It is obvious that in those days, people would have had any combination in the number of their children - boys and girls, boys only or girls only.  If the fractions do not add up to 1, it is hardly probably that people would have been able to write their Will satisfactorily and the problem would not come to the notice of the Prophet.
 
(3) And finally,  people are dying every day.  Apart from the writing of a Will, inheritance distributions must have been taking place every day in the days of early Islam. That means that the verses were discussed with the Prophet and understood. In all cases of death and subsequent distribution of the belongings of the deceased, the fractions must have added to 1.  Otherwise  we would have heard of cases where people reported the problem to the Prophet.
 
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The important point about the difficulties in comprehension of the Quran's text is that by definition, a conversation that is set in the speaker's individual style, can mean different things to different people.
 
A conversation is quite often delivered in a style peculiar to the speaker.  And since the style of the Quran is largely conversational, those who claim they have found errors have no idea what they are talking about. None of those claims has any legs to stand on - simply because that might have been acceptable ONLY if the Quran was clear and unambiguous. It does not necessarily mean there are no errors. But it certainly means the critic's enthusiasm is not well-supported.
 
And among all the alleged errors, the most nonsensical is the one on inheritance, for the above reasons.    

Yes, to some extent. But India will remain forever a lopsided place. On the whole perhaps Muslims have forgiven Modi for his crimes. But bitterness and fear linger. Everyone is hoping that  he needs to do a fair bit to erase the impression he created for himself in 2002 in the eyes not only of Indian Muslims, but the entire world.
 
 
I think Farsi was hanging on as a conversational language on the state level right until the Mutiny (aka the war of inependence) when the last Mughal king was exiled to Burma. At that time, India was still under the East India Company, not the Crown. 
 
And in theory at least, Bahadu Shah Zafar was still king of India. So Farsi did have not only a written base but also a conversational platform. But you are right - it was not a very strong base anymore. Because even in the Mughal court, Farsi had been slowly giving way to Urdu. 
 
But unfortunately, with the transfer of power to the Crown and the rise of British authority, Farsi's fate was sealed. By 1860, Farsi had been phased out as a state language.
 
 
Not quite half a century, brother. But yes, history was slowly eroding the Urdu-Farsi fabric. Urdu continued to dominate Northern India (and parts of South India like Hyderabad) even after partition.
 
Hindi took its place in the Indian landscape with the formation of the Mahasabha in Amritsar in 1914 and the RSS in 1925. 
 
And funnily, even though Urdu's traditional home was the Delhi-Lucknow belt, the place Urdu had in the Punjab was simply supreme.  
 
Right until about 1956 or so, the lingua franca of Indian Punjab continued to be Urdu. But as the children who were born after partition were growing up, the old guard began to crumble and give way to the new. 

200 well-earned Centuries 

200 well-earned Centuries 

Of course, but there are many verses which cannot be taken literally.   And that is the danger for someone who is trying to find faith.
 
 
You could begin with
 
letter no 45 in the Nahjul Balagha, written by Imam Ali to his governor in Basra
 
letter no 53 in the Nahjul Balagha, written by Imam Ali to Malikay Ashtar, governor designate to Egypt.
 
I believe these should give you an idea of the Islamic mind set.

Hi Placid
 
 
We respect your beliefs and knowledge of Christianity  but as we have all pointed out to you, your knowledge of Islam needs more work. I doubt if it is enough to make you understand what Islam, in particular Shia Islam, is all about.
  
We have very great respect for Jesus but obviously our beliefs about him or for that matter, other prophets,cannot possibly be the same as yours.
 
I am sure you will appreciate that.
 
 
 
Clearly you have not read enough.
 
Perhaps you should read  Christians who have read a little about him - people like George Jordach,Thomas Carlyle, Gabriel Enkiri etc.
 
 
Simply incalculable!
 
But you will not know until you set yourself to learning more.  It is gruelling work. If Thomas Carlyle and Gabriel Enkiri can do it, so can you.
 
 
No, we all love them both as well as all our Imams.
 
 
I doubt if you know Islam well enough to make that comment.
 
And I also doubt if Christians are following the truth given to them.
 Instead of pointing your finger at others, perhaps you should get Christians to pay more attention to the teachings of Christ.  As one example, places with largely Christian population are far more lax in their attitude towards sex than non-Christian communities.  
 
For starters, you could launch a crusade to get them to do what Christ said about sex.
 
Or you could take the challenge of atheists like Richard Dawkins, Lawrence Krauss and Sam Harris and try to blow away their arguments.
 
I am sure you are aware that all the famous atheists in the world today are from a Christian background.
 
There are lots of things you can do to get depraved Christians back on track. 

As for Muslims not following the truth, I would think it should be less important for you than Christians living such ungodly lives. 
 
I think God will question those who have departed from the truth. 
 
And I believe that those who wish to do something, their primary duty is to those within the fold, not those outside.
 
Regards

They didn't like being called queer, although the definition is much closer to reality. Now they've taken a rainbow as their symbol of...pride.
So are the rest of us to be referred to as "non-gays" soon? 
 
In the face of every pro gay argument, I remember an interview with Little Richard. (Richard Wayne Penniman)
 
One of a dozen kids in a very religious family, except his father. His uncles were ministers, and he spent most of his time in one church or another. He learned to sing, and play piano there.
 
His father kicked him out of the house at 13 for his effeminate homosexual tendencies.
 
He went on to become one of the top chart leaders in the evolving world of rock n roll. Won a lifetime achievement award for his music. 
 
In this interview he mentioned his homosexual past. Past... He was on an airplane when something happened and they all thought they were going to die. He prayed if God got him through this he'd give up his homosexuality. God got him through it, not only did he go straight, but dropped out of the R&R scene to concentrate on gospel music. He also got married...to a woman. He said he never looked back. As usual, God is the best cure.

200 well-earned Centuries 

A marriage is nothing compared to a Shiachat century.
 
In the sub-continent, a marriage takes just 3-4 evenings:-
Nikah Walima  and Rukhsati Imagine all the time it would take to make all those centuries at Shiachat.

They have sanitized their ungodly sinfulness by  abusing the beautiful word "gay" to mean "homosexual" - a lovely word which used to mean "happy".  

Well, I have clearly given you verses which show that other prophets have also asked for obedience just as Jesus did.
 
There is nothing special about Jesus asking for obedience.
 
It is no different from Noah, Abraham, Lot, Aaron etc. asking their people for obedience. 
 
The definition of "good deeds" and "bad deeds" is exactly the same in our two faiths.
 
The only small difference, as you know, is that there are things that are allowed in Christianity which are not allowed in Islam or vice versa.
 
And belief.

Hi Placid
 
 
 
Verse  [3:31] recognizes that obedience to Muhammad will elicit God's love.
 
Is there another Prophet whose obedience will be so pleasing to God that He will love you if you obey that Prophet ?
 
That as a unique tribute to Muhammad's position.
 
You might also have noticed  that according to [4:80], obedience to Muhammad is declared equivalent to obedience to God - another accolade for our Prophet alone - and no other. 
 
 
 
Loving one another is not the same as God loving you.
 
 
 
In this verse from the NT, God will love the one who loves Jesus. But this verse is not in the Quran.
 
The Quran says something on these lines only for our Prophet.    
 
 
 
These verses don't talk about God loving man but about man loving God and his neighbor.
 
 
These again are all about man loving God and his neighbor, not about God loving man. 

I am not sure but I heard that of whatever percentage of Muslim vote went to BJP, most of the votes came from the same Gujarat sate where the Muslim massacre occurred in 2002. What does it say about the status of Modi in the eyes of Gujarati Muslims?
 
I read somewhere that putting aside grievances vis-a-vis Modi's role in Gujarat massacre, Muslims there are happy with his governance because Gujarati Muslims have equally benefited from the great financial prosperity that the state of Gujarat has achieved under Modi's 12 years rule.
 
Would that, in your opinion, be a true assessment of reality?
 
 
I would say that Farsi in India was already a dying breed by the mid 19th century. Only learned men studied it and only literary types worked in it. Even those who knew best how to read and write Farsi could hardly speak it. For instance, could anyone say that Muhammad Iqbal, whose Farsi canon is so famous in the Persianite world, could hold an ordinary conversation in Farsi only falteringly, with great difficulty? But anyone who is able to read his Farsi verse knows that he was a maestro of the written form. By the turn of the century 19th century common man couldn't understand Farsi anymore.
 
But you're right. Learned Hindus and Sikhs studies Farsi with as much enthusiasm as Muslims. They also learned and taught Urdu in great numbers. There were top Hindu writers who wrote fiction and poetry in Urdu till Partition when Urdu in India was overtaken by Hindi.
 
But we should also do well to remember that Hindi-Urdu problem had been there even half a century before Partition, and it was feared by Urdu wallahs that Hindu-dominated Congress would give in to the demands of Hindu right wing parties like RSS and Hindu Mahasabha, and impose Hindi language on Muslims after independence, and that Urdu would be relegated to background. It happened in India anyway, no?

As I was saying, when was the last time a 5% population took over, the Olympics, had a parade, stole the whole rainbow, changed words in the English language, etc?

Yes, I am sorry. It was a typo. I realized it after I had pressed the "Send" button.

After, in fact, the one hour grace for permission to edit was over.

Not true
 
If there is a clash, we should follow Muhammad or for other nations, their "current" prophet).
 
Thus if Moses forbade pork, his followers should refrain from pork.
 
If Jesus allowed pork, his followers may have it.
 
Islam has the concept of a prophet being "current for a given jurisdiction and time".
 
People in the time of Moses were under Mosaic law.
 
People in the time of Jesus were also under Mosaic law, except for any changes Jesus may have done to the law, like pork perhaps.
 
 
 
 
 Easy !
 
To begin with, every prophet was to be obeyed [4:64]. Not only Jesus.
 
Jesus was not the only prophet who said "Obey me".
 
Others include :-
 
Noah   [26:108], [26:110] and [71:3]
 
Abraham [14:36]   (The reference is indirect but the implication is that they should obey him)
 
Aaron [20:90]
 
Lot  [26:163]
 
Salih [26:144], [26:150]
 
Hood [26:126], [26:131]
 
Shuaib [26:179]
 
Muhammad [3:31] 
 
And in [3:31], obedience to Muhammad will also bring about the love of God, something  not mentioned in the case of any other prophet.
 
And  obedience to Muhammad has been equated to obedience to God [4:80].  
 
Though not explicitly mentioned, obedience to the "current" prophet is always equivalent to obedience to God.
 
But explicitly, the Quran mentions it only for Muhammad. 

Even if a country could be described as a full-fletched Islamic state, there are several points to consider in case of any punishment.
 
Firstly, Imam Ali has said "don't rush through with punishments".
 
Secondly, in some cases, Imam Ali used to try and find excuses for the offender.
 
The attitude of most Islamic states is completely different.
 
·        they like to rush through the punishment and
 
·        they don't try to find an excuse that would mitigate the crime.
 
There is no Muslim country that ever tries to hold on to those high ideals.

Driving your own car instead of being driven around will not be enough.  A truly Muslim king would take the bus or use a bicycle. For short distances, walking will be the right thing to do. And there will be no state banquets or visiting other world leaders and staying in $3,000 a night hotel suites with the costliest 21st century fittings. They could talk to all world leaders on Skype or in the olden days, by courier.
 
Imam Ali's rebuke to his governor at Kufa, Uthman bin Hunaif for rubbing shoulders with the rich and the famous is very clear how simply a governor should live.
 
 
The Imam was himself always seen in clothes that even the poorest would find fit to discard and eating food that was difficult to swallow.  At one point he was seen mending his old shoes. His cousin remarked that the shoes had outlived their normal span, there was nothing left in them any more but he couldn't care less. He had to set the model for succeeding generations of Muslims, who of course, ignored him and began to nurture the taste for luxury and pleasure.
 
When he became caliph, he disappointed his aides who looked around and found a suitable palace for him to move into. He turned down their request and continued to live in his shack.  It is reported the palace was painted white.
 
If we take Imam Ali's life as a model for Islam, none of those stately shenanigans that world leaders, including Muslim leaders, love to indulge in, are permitted!
 
Note: In paragraph IV, I said "suitable palace" not "suitable place". 

Some more anecdotes from the life of Imam Ali:-
 
1. Imam Ali had an older brother Aqeel. Aqeel was much older than Imam Ali. Aqeel had several children and had fallen on hard times. During the time that Imam Ali was at the helm, Aqeel approached Imam Ali for some help from the Treasury.
 
Aqeel invited Imam Ali to a small meal. Imam Ali asked his brother how he could meet the expense of the dinner if he was so poor. Aqeel replied that he had been putting away small coins for some time so that he could have his brother over for a meal. Imam Ali replied that if Aqeel could save money, it was obvious that his pension from the Treasury was more than his needs.
 
Aqeel asked the Imam for some help from the Treasury. Imam Ali stood up and asked Aqeel to come with him. He then took Aqeel to the market place and asked him to get into any shop and take what he wanted. Aqeel was naturally surprised and said "do you want me to steal".
 
The Imam replied "Well, when you asked me for help from the Treasury, were you also not asking me to steal?
 
Aqeel realized his brother's high ideals and called off his request.
 
2.  The battle of Siffeen was raging and Imam Ali was himself going into sallies in attack on the enemy. In one break when he returned to camp, someone came up to him with a bowl of cold refreshments.
 
The Imam told him "Do you not see all those injured people out there. Do you expect me to comfort myself when all those people are in such pain and discomfort. Take the drinks to them.
 
 The man replied "But sir, they are our enemies.
 
The noble Imam turned to him and said "Enemies they may be but they are human beings first. Take those refreshments to them".
 
3. Once Imam Ali was passing through town with some aides and he saw a beggar asking for money. The Imam turned to his aides in surprise. "Why should this man be begging? Is there not enough in the Treasury to provide for him"?
 
"But sir, this man is a Christian", one of his aides said.
 
The Imam turned to his aide "When this man was young, you made him work and now you find an excuse to turn him away. Go and provide for his needs immediately from the Treasury".
 
4. Imam Ali was leading the dawn prayer when the assassin's sword struck.
 
While he lay writhing in pain and bleeding, his aides caught the assassin, tied him in rope and brought him to the Imam. The Imam noted that the rope was cutting into the man's skin and asked his men to loosen the rope.
 
Then he asked his assassin "Was I a bad Imam to you"? The man was dumb-founded.
 
Someone then brought the Imam a cool drink.
 
He immediately ordered that a similar bowl should be brought immediately for his killer.
 
5. One day he was going out of town and met a Jew who wanted to strike a conversation. The Imam talked with him answering his questions until it was time for them to break up. At that junction, the two had to take different routes.  
 
But instead of parting company from the man, the Imam accompanied the Jew for a while. The man noted that he was on a different road. He was not on the road that he should have been to get to his destination.
 
The Imam replied that he knew that. He just wanted to say good-bye respectfully and so decided to accompany the man for a distance before returning to the junction to resume his own journey.
 
6. Professor Reynold reports that when the Imam was assassinated, the Jewish and Christian women and children mourned him as one does for one's own father.
 
7. As the Lebanese-American Christian writer Khalil Gibran, says,
 
"He was like a prophet sent to a nation other than his own, in an era to which he did not belong."

when my father returned back from overseas after a long trip, I met him at Sydney Airport and kissed him on the hand and face and hugged him and then these Australians looked at me thinking I was with my Gay partner or something...........looooooooool.
 
very hard to find out who is gay in the middle east. Men congregate with each other all the time, kiss each other on the cheeks, even grab each others elbows/hands lol. 

Nigeria and the Netherlands are both big into this type of scam. If it seems too good to be true, it usually is.
 
Distrust isn't limited to the internet, but it's a great place for the socially inept to pretend to be somebody.
Many reasons. Some are quite entertaining, some are sad situations. Getting behind the façade is extra work but some people are worth it.
Many are lacking in life, want to be accepted, want to be loved, want to dominate, want to control.
I've driven 300 klms to pick up a kid who bussed from Kansas to Edmonton for a girl who wasn't there, brought him back to my place, consoled him, gave him a few other things to think about, waved bye at the bus station, and watched him find a decent woman,( in his own home town) marry her, he has kids and what seems to be a good life.
Like I said, some are worth it, others, well you just want to swim in their Florida drinking water.

It appears from this thread that some people believe that Jesus did not say a word against homosexuality and therefore it is OK.
 
Plain common sense tells me that Jesus did not have to mention things that were commonly known.
 
Jews regarded homosexuality as a sin and therefore by default, it continues to be a sin for Christianity as well.
 
There was absolutely no need for Jesus to re-invent a wheel which was already in motion. 

Actually, I went to a site called scambaits. All they do is play with these 419 scams, and have a wealth of info on how to trace. Become a member and they set you up with a mentor and all. Mentor gave me back a week later saying I wasn't there to play.
I traced an internet café in Nigeria sells pizza and ganga, and allows the scams to happen, located it on google, sent the information to their authorities. I have no proof it had anything to do with it, but within the week, 16 were arrested in an internet café in the area, but the report didn't mention which café it was.
 
Scambaits was also into baiting foreign women in peril, looking for a hero. I photoshopped a full itinerary from their closest airports, (never the one they claim), four stops, two nights + breakfast, gift cert for Starbucks, in the airport, to Edmonton, Alberta. Never heard from any of them again. Heartbroken.
 
I have a nephew, in law, (no fault of my own) who spent $3500. he didn't have but is still waiting for his account to fill up.

I understand that.
 
I believe there are several solutions to the population problem.

And while homos may reduce the population in this world, they may increase the population of those finding it difficult to get into heaven. 

From a purely humanist perspective, we would be better off using a few more contraceptives. There are heaps available in pharmacies and other stores.