baqar

Hi Baqar,

I Hope you have a good time away, whether resting (or fishing.) --- This is the month of Ramadan when all should be more harmonious. The intro to Mr Pickthall’s translation gives the history of Muhammad who, with his family, took the ‘hot month’ each year to retire to a cave near Mecca for meditation, and it was there near the end of the month that he had the vision of Gabriel, and was called to become the Messenger to his people.
--- We can catch up later. I also will be away for a few days next week (with no internet), but with family. --- So, have fun.

Quote from Post 131:
The fact that you have shown such positive interest in Islam in a world that is raging with the fire of hatred is indeed commendable.

Response: --- Thank you very much for your acknowledgement that there is merit in studying and believing the Quran.
I don’t deserve any special credit, but as most ‘jewels’ are cut out of rock, I am still in the ‘rock’ stage. --- I am just a stone among many. I have a desire to learn, and the Lord is prompting me to get to know the truth of the Quran.
--- My hope is to teach you guys to love one another rather than continue the hatred that seems to prevail, and in some places is increasing.

Jesus said “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.”
Surah 3:50 ---“Do your duty to God and obey (or follow) Me.” --- (That means a life of ‘truthfulness’ before God and man, for Christians, --- 'Christ's ones.')
51 God is My Lord and your Lord, so worship Him (God), that is a Way that is straight.
That is the Straight Way for Christians, that was given to the Apostles, --- and we follow the teaching of Jesus, and the Apostles, which includes the teaching of the New Testament, also including ‘The Book of Revelation.’

I am so sorry for the tragedy of Karbala, and as you express it here it was deliberate cruelty, --- and should be a revelation to Silver who started the thread, and thought God’s judgment was cruel in the OT.
--- (Someone had suggested that Aids may have broken out in Sodom and Gomorrah, which would have spread as it did in Africa, when it was first called ‘the thins disease,’ because men would get thin and die, and the women also, leaving their orphaned children.
--- In Sodom and Gomorrah the wicked adults had to be destroyed, but the children would be taken up to God. --- The same for the children of Karballa, but some of them suffered such atrocities before they died. --- That was not the Justice of God, but the cruelty of men.)
(I find it hard even to read about it.)

Quote: (And concerning Fatima’s untimely death): “And then the massacre of 18 members of her family, the killing of her six month old grandson, the incarceration of her daughters and grand-daughters, whose ration was barely enough for even half of them.”
--- This is part of the story of Karbala, but since Fatima died the same year as Muhammad, when Hussain was six years old, --- Karbala happened a generation later, so it must have been another Fatima who had daughters and grand-daughters.
It is recorded that Muhammad and Fatima died in 632, when Hussain was 6.
It records his death at the Battle of Karbala in 680. --- He would have been 54.
 
I am so sorry that this had to happen, and though it is commemorated, it keeps bringing back to memory the violent beginnings.  
 
Placid
 

Do enlighten us.

Sorry, but one name has been repeated
 
Obviously you mean
Lady Zainab, daughter of Lady Fatima Lady Umme Kulsoom, daughter of Lady Fatima Lady Fatima bint al Hasan,  daughter of Imam Hasan Lady Fatima Kubra, daughter of Imam Husain and Lady Sakina, also known as Ruqayya, daughter of Imam Husain  
Almost but more precisely, 56 1/2 accordinng to the lunar calendar 

Hi Placid
 
 
No Placid, no
 
The "Fatima" whose grandsons were killed and grand-daughters incarcerated in Karbala was the same "Lady Fatima:, the daughter of our Holy Prophet. She had four children:-
 
·         Imam Hasan
·         Imam Husain
·         Lady Zainab
·         Lady Umm e Kulsoom.
 
Imam Hasan was poisoned in about 670 AD (or 50 AH). The battle of Karbala took place in 680 AD (or 61AH).
 
Lady Fatima's two daughters mentioned above were present with their brother at Karbala and were incarcerated and went through the sufferings some of which  have been described to you. 
 
Lady Fatima's grand-children killed at Karbala included:
Ali Akbar and six-month old Ali Ahghar, sons of Imam Husain Qasim and Muhammad, sons of Imam Hasan Aun and Muhammad, sons of Lady Zainab There were many women and children of Imam Husain's family incarcerated by the tyrants after the massacre of Karbala, some of whom are named here
Lady, Zainab, daughter of Lady Fatima, daughter of the Prophet Lady Umm e Kulsoom, daughter of Lady Fatima, daughter of the Prophet Lady Fatima Kubra, daughter of Imam Husain Lady Fatima Kubra, daughter of Imam Husain Lady Sakina, daughter of Imam Husain as well as some others.
 
Lady Fatima's faithful servant, Fizza, whose wisdom was exemplary was also there. The Prophet had not excluded her from being educated like many masters do to their underlings.  She was about 80 at the time. 
 
All these ladies are buried in Damascus. Ladu Zaina'b's mausoleum is in a place called Zainabia, named after her, just outside Damascus, whereas the other ladies are in Damascus proper.  Whereas Imam Husain's mausoleum is in Karbala, Iraq.
 
Off-topic, for your information, those  ISIS (or ISIL) guys whom have only a few weeks ago, taken large parts of Iraq and Syria are now eying Karbala and Najaf, so that they can destroy the graves of Imam Husain and Imam Ali, just as the king of Saudi Arabia did to the graves of Lady Fatima and Imam Hasan, both of whom are buried in Medina, in Saudi Arabia.  That happened in 1926.  These Wahabi Muslims love to dstroy all memory of the Prophet's family. 
 
The sufferings that they went through on the way to Damascus and in the prison in Damascus, where they were held have been well-documented.  
 
But non-Shia writers tend to bypass them in their books because it brings shame to them and outs a question mark on the caliphate of their caliphs. 
 
Sunnis do not doubt their happening but would rather not talk about it.
 
So you need to read books written specifically by Shia authors, for more details.
And you will have to specifically ask for books not only about 
the prelude to Karbala and  the battle of Karbala but also  the fate of the survivors.   
 He was 57 according to the lunar calendar, which is about 55 and a 1/2 according to the Western solar calendar.
 
 
You are a kind-hearted man, Placid.  But justice requires that victims of injustice, oppression and torture must be celebrated and remembered. 
 
And you cannot do  justice to them unless you read of the atrocities yourself.
 
Indeed they have more to do with humanity than with religion.
 
You may be surprised that in some parts of India, Hindus and Sikhs take part in the commemorations as eagerly as we Shias, while the Sunnis just stand and watch in bewildered embarassment.
 
 
Not exactly, because some of the cruelty in the OT was at the orders of God and His representatives on earth at the time, whereas the sufferings of the family of the Prophet were at the hands of the evil men among the Prophet's followers.   
 
However, the Internet is not an easy place to learn about such things. 
 
In case you live in Alberta like your son does,  I could give you some references, if you wish to get in touch with local Shia organizations who may be able to supply you with books or other material that you may like to read:-
Husaini Association of Calgary, 4755-34th Street SE, Calgary,  T2B 3B3.  Phone :- 403-999-4614   &  40-512-4514 Islamic S.I.A. Association of Canada, 407, 33 Avenue, Edmonton, T6L 4H7   Phone :- 780-461-4566   &    780-463-4660 The story of Imam Husain, his small troop of men and the survivors is history's unique one-off. It has no precedent or succeeding example.
 
It is an eye-opener how the followers of a Prophet could treat the nearest and dearest of their own Prophet.
As one poet has rightly said 
 
"Let man rise from his slumber
Every nation will call out - Husain is ours"   (translation) 
 
Regards

Hi Placid
 
 
No Placid, no
 
The "Fatima" whose grandsons were killed and grand-daughters incarcerated in Karbala was the same "Lady Fatima:, the daughter of our Holy Prophet. She had four children:-
 
·         Imam Hasan
·         Imam Husain
·         Lady Zainab
·         Lady Umm e Kulsoom.
 
Imam Hasan was poisoned in about 670 AD (or 50 AH). The battle of Karbala took place in 680 AD (or 61AH).
 
Lady Fatima's two daughters mentioned above were present with their brother at Karbala and were incarcerated and went through the sufferings some of which  have been described to you. 
 
Lady Fatima's grand-children killed at Karbala included:
Ali Akbar and six-month old Ali Ahghar, sons of Imam Husain Qasim and Muhammad, sons of Imam Hasan Aun and Muhammad, sons of Lady Zainab There were many women and children of Imam Husain's family incarcerated by the tyrants after the massacre of Karbala, some of whom are named here
Lady, Zainab, daughter of Lady Fatima, daughter of the Prophet Lady Umm e Kulsoom, daughter of Lady Fatima, daughter of the Prophet Lady Fatima Kubra, daughter of Imam Husain Lady Fatima Kubra, daughter of Imam Husain Lady Sakina, daughter of Imam Husain as well as some others.
 
Lady Fatima's faithful servant, Fizza, whose wisdom was exemplary was also there. The Prophet had not excluded her from being educated like many masters do to their underlings.  She was about 80 at the time. 
 
All these ladies are buried in Damascus. Ladu Zaina'b's mausoleum is in a place called Zainabia, named after her, just outside Damascus, whereas the other ladies are in Damascus proper.  Whereas Imam Husain's mausoleum is in Karbala, Iraq.
 
Off-topic, for your information, those  ISIS (or ISIL) guys whom have only a few weeks ago, taken large parts of Iraq and Syria are now eying Karbala and Najaf, so that they can destroy the graves of Imam Husain and Imam Ali, just as the king of Saudi Arabia did to the graves of Lady Fatima and Imam Hasan, both of whom are buried in Medina, in Saudi Arabia.  That happened in 1926.  These Wahabi Muslims love to dstroy all memory of the Prophet's family. 
 
The sufferings that they went through on the way to Damascus and in the prison in Damascus, where they were held have been well-documented.  
 
But non-Shia writers tend to bypass them in their books because it brings shame to them and outs a question mark on the caliphate of their caliphs. 
 
Sunnis do not doubt their happening but would rather not talk about it.
 
So you need to read books written specifically by Shia authors, for more details.
And you will have to specifically ask for books not only about 
the prelude to Karbala and  the battle of Karbala but also  the fate of the survivors.   
 He was 57 according to the lunar calendar, which is about 55 and a 1/2 according to the Western solar calendar.
 
 
You are a kind-hearted man, Placid.  But justice requires that victims of injustice, oppression and torture must be celebrated and remembered. 
 
And you cannot do  justice to them unless you read of the atrocities yourself.
 
Indeed they have more to do with humanity than with religion.
 
You may be surprised that in some parts of India, Hindus and Sikhs take part in the commemorations as eagerly as we Shias, while the Sunnis just stand and watch in bewildered embarassment.
 
 
Not exactly, because some of the cruelty in the OT was at the orders of God and His representatives on earth at the time, whereas the sufferings of the family of the Prophet were at the hands of the evil men among the Prophet's followers.   
 
However, the Internet is not an easy place to learn about such things. 
 
In case you live in Alberta like your son does,  I could give you some references, if you wish to get in touch with local Shia organizations who may be able to supply you with books or other material that you may like to read:-
Husaini Association of Calgary, 4755-34th Street SE, Calgary,  T2B 3B3.  Phone :- 403-999-4614   &  40-512-4514 Islamic S.I.A. Association of Canada, 407, 33 Avenue, Edmonton, T6L 4H7   Phone :- 780-461-4566   &    780-463-4660 The story of Imam Husain, his small troop of men and the survivors is history's unique one-off. It has no precedent or succeeding example.
 
It is an eye-opener how the followers of a Prophet could treat the nearest and dearest of their own Prophet.
As one poet has rightly said 
 
"Let man rise from his slumber
Every nation will call out - Husain is ours"   (translation) 
 
Regards

No, all the best

Hi ILIH
 
Sorry for the error and thanks for the correction.

Hi ILIH
 
Sorry for the error and thanks for the correction.

No, all the best

Edward Gibbon, author of "THE DECLINE and FALL of THE ROMAN EMPIRE" says as follows:-
 
"In a distant age and clime, the tragic scene of the death of Husain will awaken the sympathy of the coldest reader".

They don't need to. Jannat ul Baqi has already been demolished. The need to march into KSA is not urgent. They can do it in their time.
 
I hope he is the  promised Sufiani.
 
Or someone coming soon after him is.

Who told you that Sunnis believe Ayesha to be the best of women?  You are totally mis-informed. 
 
They pamper her a lot but that is about it.
 
There is one hadeeth commonly accepted by both Shias and Sunnis on the subject, according to which the four best women in the eyes of God are:-
Lady Fatima, daughter of our Holy Prophet (pbuh) Lady Mariam (Mary, the mother of Jesus) Lady Khadija (the mother of Lady Fatima)  and  Lady Aasia, the foster-mother of Moses (of the household of the Pharoah). There is absolutely no hadeeth in regard to Ayesha's merit on that level, that is even remotely accepted by any Muslims.
 
 
 
Sorry, I did not qute understand what you mean by "40 years too early".

You are doing well, Placid.
 
The fact that you have shown such positive interest in Islam in a world that is raging with the fire of hatred is indeed commendable. You are a jewel of a man. However, as I have said before, there is more to the Quran than meets the eye. In any case, your progress with the Quran and your hard work in trying to understand it must be recognized.

 
That is not impossible.
 
 
Muslims generally believe that the expression "The Book" in both [3:3] and [3:7] refers to the Quran.
 
But it is not a big deal if you think otherwise. It does not alter the overall drift by much.  
 
 
Untimely it sure was.
 
And then the massacre of 18 members of her family, the killing of her six month old grandson, the incarceration of her daughters and grand-daughters, whose ration was barely enough for even half of them.
 
The women of the Prophets' household had been stripped of their veils and forced to walk through the streets of Kufa and Damascus, with their hands bound in rope. The only male adult in the group, Imam Hussain's 24 year old son, Imam Zainul Abedin was bound in shackles and leg-irons. He had not been able to fight for his father because he was very sick on the day of battle and his father had forbidden him to fight because jihad is not permitted for the sick and disabled.  
 
The governor of Kufa had ordered the citizens of Kufa to bedeck the city and to turn out in their best clothes and in the spirit of merriment to watch the parade of the prisoners walk past, with the heads of the martyrs, that is, Imam Hussain and the 18 members of the family, impaled on lances, right in front of them.  They had not told the general public who these prisoners were. The public was told that someone had rebelled against the caliph and naturally faced their comeuppance .
 
The same merriment awaited the prisoners when they arrived in Damascus. But the speech that Lady Zainab, the older daughter of Lady Fatima, gave in the court of the caliph Yazeed, shook his crown and astonished his courtiers.
 
Her niece, the four year old Lady Sakina, used to cry bitterly for her father, Imam Hussain. And the tyrants would whip her and slap her.
 
En route from Kufa to Damascus, they used to race the camels for the sake of fun, so some of the children fell off their mounts and were killed. Four year old Lady Sakina was placed on a camel all by herself and tied to the camel with a rope - face down with her stomach and chest bleeding because they were pierced by the hunch of the camel.  
 
Indeed who would have suffered more than Lady Fatima did at what would happen to her family? The Prophet had told Lady Fatima exactly what was to happen  and she accepted and bore her destiny with the greatest of patience.
 
That is why God recognized Lady Fatima's sufferings with the appellation "Princess of the women of Paradise". 
 
The Prophet's family was indeed the paragon of patience and everyone knows that their sufferings have no equal in history.
 
By the way, I will be away for a while. I am sure someone will be able to answer your concerns for you during this time. 

You are doing well, Placid.
 
The fact that you have shown such positive interest in Islam in a world that is raging with the fire of hatred is indeed commendable. You are a jewel of a man. However, as I have said before, there is more to the Quran than meets the eye. In any case, your progress with the Quran and your hard work in trying to understand it must be recognized.

 
That is not impossible.
 
 
Muslims generally believe that the expression "The Book" in both [3:3] and [3:7] refers to the Quran.
 
But it is not a big deal if you think otherwise. It does not alter the overall drift by much.  
 
 
Untimely it sure was.
 
And then the massacre of 18 members of her family, the killing of her six month old grandson, the incarceration of her daughters and grand-daughters, whose ration was barely enough for even half of them.
 
The women of the Prophets' household had been stripped of their veils and forced to walk through the streets of Kufa and Damascus, with their hands bound in rope. The only male adult in the group, Imam Hussain's 24 year old son, Imam Zainul Abedin was bound in shackles and leg-irons. He had not been able to fight for his father because he was very sick on the day of battle and his father had forbidden him to fight because jihad is not permitted for the sick and disabled.  
 
The governor of Kufa had ordered the citizens of Kufa to bedeck the city and to turn out in their best clothes and in the spirit of merriment to watch the parade of the prisoners walk past, with the heads of the martyrs, that is, Imam Hussain and the 18 members of the family, impaled on lances, right in front of them.  They had not told the general public who these prisoners were. The public was told that someone had rebelled against the caliph and naturally faced their comeuppance .
 
The same merriment awaited the prisoners when they arrived in Damascus. But the speech that Lady Zainab, the older daughter of Lady Fatima, gave in the court of the caliph Yazeed, shook his crown and astonished his courtiers.
 
Her niece, the four year old Lady Sakina, used to cry bitterly for her father, Imam Hussain. And the tyrants would whip her and slap her.
 
En route from Kufa to Damascus, they used to race the camels for the sake of fun, so some of the children fell off their mounts and were killed. Four year old Lady Sakina was placed on a camel all by herself and tied to the camel with a rope - face down with her stomach and chest bleeding because they were pierced by the hunch of the camel.  
 
Indeed who would have suffered more than Lady Fatima did at what would happen to her family? The Prophet had told Lady Fatima exactly what was to happen  and she accepted and bore her destiny with the greatest of patience.
 
That is why God recognized Lady Fatima's sufferings with the appellation "Princess of the women of Paradise". 
 
The Prophet's family was indeed the paragon of patience and everyone knows that their sufferings have no equal in history.
 
By the way, I will be away for a while. I am sure someone will be able to answer your concerns for you during this time. 

You better not be going fishing without me.

My apologies. I wasn't aware that Sunnis read and followed the aHadeeth. If they did, I assumed they would be Shi`ah. According to Daniel 9, Jeremiah 25, & Jeremiah 29, the Messiah can't come until after the second temple is destroyed, which happened in 70 C.E. Jesus was crucified between 28-33 C.E.

Sorry about taking so long to get back to you.
 
I can't really speak for everyone.
I watched a beauty pageant once. It's all about the prettiest woman. Some of their answers to questions about the world were ludicrous, proving they were all about the swimsuit challenge. In the mean time I have seen many beautiful women who could have won, so it's not like they pick from the most beautiful, but from those with money, or being sponsored to be there. Tremendous waste of time and money. Not that the money would ever be spent on the needy. Sochi, Fifa for that matter. 
 
Discrimination is such an overused word, There is also a Mr Universe every year, but I never felt the discrimination, did you? I've seen so many abusers cry discrimination for their personal gains over the years I'd be better to never hear it again.
 
Vatican's view on pageants     

Hello Scottish Revert,
 
Nice speech.  As I often tell my Muslim friends, create a society that is attractive, a society that people want to belong to, a society that people immigrate too not from.
 
Show the world the greatness of Islam and stop telling us about it.  Fair enough?
 
BTW, I issue this challenge to all my religious friends. :)
 
All the Best,
David

Hi SoP
 
 
In the section on Christian Behavior, it says as follows; "Our amusement and entertainment should meet the highest standards of Christian taste and beauty. "
 
So what do SDA (and other Christian denomonations) say about beauty contests ?
 
Islam rejects beauty contests altogether, not only because they violate the Islamic dress code, but also because  
 
·         they are an adoration of physical beauty,     
·         they discriminate against the vast majority of women, who do not fit the description required by the contest, and
·         they are a waste of money and time, which could be used more productively in the service of God and the disadvantaged in society.

I am not sure about other churches, but I don't think the Vatican has ever issued a disapproving opinion on beauty contests.

I have no idea. This is one priest and a bunch of nuns so I can't really say the Vatican approves. 
 
It's a good question what Jesus would do. In the case of secular contests apart from the church He would probably expose the offenses as you did. If it were in the church, I imagine He would put an end to it like the vendors outside the temple in Jerusalem. Racking my brain if there was ever a situation even semi relevant other than chasing the vendors out of the temple.

They don't need to. Jannat ul Baqi has already been demolished. The need to march into KSA is not urgent. They can do it in their time.
 
I hope he is the  promised Sufiani.
 
Or someone coming soon after him is.

Hi Andres
 
I was born and raised in a non-Muslim country and I am now living in a non-Muslim country. So I couldn't answer your question accurately.
 
What I do know is that the actions of al-Qaida and Taliban and similar groups have created some very false impressions about Islam.
 
In Afghanistan, the Taliban prevented girls from going to school. 
 
That is, in fact, completely contrary to the teachings of Islam.
 
I will not bore you with too many details but just give you one of our Prophet's famous sayings - 
 
"It is the duty of every believing man and woman to seek knowledge".  
 
The women of the Prophet's household were given the same education as the men and they even made sure that a servant, Fizza, was given the best of education - at home, of course. There were no educational institutions in those days.

(bismillah)
الحمد لله رب العالمين وصلى الله على محمد وآله أجمعين والعن أعدائم إلى يوم الدين
 
 
What are the problems and bad things/impurities in Sunni Sect of Religion Islam??
 
1 - Tajseem
 
It is the main opinion of the various schools of theology amongst the Sunni school. Tajseem refers to the belief that Allah, The Most High, has a body. Some go as far and say he has a body described with hand, feet, arms, running, sitting, etc أعوذ بالله من ذلك and this would amount to tashbeeh as well, giving the attributes of the creation to Allah [swt]. Some try and clarify that He has a body that is “unlike all bodies,” but a body by definition means something finite and limited. Allah is above all these limited and finite, All Glory and Majesty is His.
 
The only non-Shi`a that I am aware of that do not regard this theology are the Mu`tazila, but the vast majority of Sunnis do not consider them as a part of their sect - in fact many of the proto-Sunni scholars considered them Kuffar for various reasons, such as denying the Qur’an being uncreated. The Mu`tazila have by and large vanished from being existence. The tradition died early on and any individual carrying their theology today would be considered a Neo-Mu`tazilite.
 
2 - Claim of Love for the Ahl al-Bayt, the `Itra عليهم السلام
 
On the end of the Sunni spectrum of Islam there is a lot of lip service given to the Ahl al-Bayt عليهم السلام but they are in practice - in reality - ignored. The height of their love and adoration gets is mentioning some nice qualities about them (but always seemingly down playing them in order to favor and boast a few other personalities) and give them a nice taraddi رضي الله عنه when they are mentioned. Their teachings, their fiqh, they ahadeeth are grossly overlooked and ignored. There may be some scattered things here and there attributed to them int he books of Sunnism, but few things go through them, especially the later Imams عليهم السلام like al-`Askari and al-Hadi عليهما السلام whom are recognized as Rawafidh by many. Many things attributed to our Imams in their literature are also highly suspicious. For example, why are 90% of the traditions attributed to `Ali b. al-Husayn Zayn al-`Abideen عليهما السلام in the Six Collections disparaging tales about his ancestors and family? 
 
Why is Mu`awiya b. Abi Sufyan praised? What was said by the Prophet ص about the killers of `Ammar b. Yasir? Who killed Aba al-Zharr al-Ghaffari? `A’isha caused a massive war with the Khalifa of her Time, caused the deaths of 10, 000 muslims - more than all the expeditions during the life of the Prophet ص - and she’s all good and trustworthy? She lied to the Prophet ص and schemed against him (sura al-Tahreem)! So “repented” then did what she did again? So we should keep accepting her “repentence” which have proven to be less than trustworthy?
 
Why is it that those that rebelled against Abu Bakr are declared as apostates while those who rebelled against Imam `Ali عليه السلام are all mistaken [sometimes] mujtahids and all “may Allah be pleased with them?”
 
Why didn’t Imam `Ali [as] give immediate bay`ah to Abi Bakr? Why was the house of Sayyid Zahra عليها أفضل الصلاة والسلام threatened by `Umar? Why is it that when other companions fight it’s just a mistake in ijtihad, while the issue of Fadak between Sayyid Zahra عليها السلام and Abi Bakr, it is said she was being greedy and dunyawi?! أعوذ بالله  Why is Yazid defended about the slaughter and massacre of the children of Fatima عليه السلام on the 10th of Muharram? Why did Yazid send his forces to Madina where the women of Sahaba [or children of Sahaba] and Tabi`een were raped resulting in numerous illegitimate births that year?
 
Why are were all of our Imams عليهم السلام oppressed and murdered so far? Why is it that they were imprisoned, tortured, put under house arrest, etc?
 
This leads to point #3.
 
3 - A Blind Eye to History
 
I do not believe I have to elaborate too much on this too much as many of the things have been presented to you above. The majority of the ugly events in history regarding the Sahaba and Tabi`een are over looked by Sunnism as if it has nothing to do with the formulation of their “sect” and its doctrines and leanings; why it takes the particular stances it takes. It is clear to anyone with a quarter of a brain when looking at the history and events surrounding the character Mu`awiya b. Abi Sufyan that he was an evil person and his intentions were for worldly power. 
 
This leads us to point #4:
 
4 - Invalidity of the concept of Righteousness of All Companions and concept of Consensus
 
If one pays close attention to the foundations of this matter, it will be very clear. Mu`awiya b. Abi Sufyan is large proof of the invalidity of this concept. Even Abu Hurayra was considered a liar by the people of Iraq - he mentions this himself in a narration. The problem, acc. to a Sunni worldview, is that once you open the door to criticism about a companion, it opens the door to all companions and thus they become no different than any other generation of narrators. The actions of many of the Sahaba is proof against their `adalah, and they have given so many excuses that rational people would not accept (refer back to the list of questions) and only work after one accepts the world view. It is also said that this concept of righteousness of all companions came up in reaction to the Imami Shia who attribute `isma [“infallbility”], like the Prophet is ma`sum, to their Imams عليهم السلام. It is inconceivable that the same 10 People supposed “promised paradise” are going to be killing each other in a war but they’re all still righteous and “May Allah be pleased with all of them.”
 
Khalid b. Walid, the so called Sword of Allah, killed a man unjustly and then raped his wife. History reports this very clearly, and other reports recount him killing women and children in wars and expeditions.
 
Huzhayfa al-Yaman [ra] - the keeper the secret of the munafiqeen who attacked the Prophet after Tabuk - reports when `Abdullah b. Mas`ud [ra] and Abu Musa al-Ash`ari entered the mosque (both companions), he said “One of these two is a munafiq.” Then he went on to praise `Abdullah b. Mas`ud. I think it is pretty clear who he means now [by the way, this “companion” features as a main narrator in many Sunni hadith that are “saheeh”].The fact that there were munafiqeen amongst the Prophet’s companions means they were not all righteous and that being around his holy personality does not magically make you unable to lie upon him. If you are fasiq and evil person, you can justify anything. `Umar b. Sa`d and companion [sons of companions and tabi`een] justified it to themselves to murder the Prophet’s Grandson ص. 
 
As for the concept of Consensus, then there is no way to establish this in practice and often ends up being something anachronistically applied to past generations. Ahmad b. Hanbal said there had not been an ijma` on really anything. The Tabi`een and even the companions disagreed on… everything. From the attributes of Allah عز وجل, how to pray, how to fast, how to get married, how to buy and sell, all the way to who is the Imam of the Muslims and then some. The only thing, I dare say, the group called “Ahl al-Sunna wal-Jama`ah” agree on is not being Shia. Even then, why are we sidelining the hundreds of thousands of Tabi`een and early Muslims who were Shia and even Rafidha? Heck, even some companions were famous rawafidh (Abu Tufayl `Aamir b. Wathla, accused for this “extreme” tashayyu`). But that’s just ignored for whatever reason or poorly explained away to try and keep up the facade of all the companions agreeing on “non-shiism.” 
 
The concept of consensus, as is claimed to be infallible, is even urged by grand quranic muafassir Fakhr al-Razi when he goes through the ayah “Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger and those of Authority among you…” ياأيها الذين آمنوا أطيعوا الله وأطيعوا الرسول وأولي الأمر منكم He tries to say it can’t be a select few or group of the Umma because “it is impossible for us to benefit from their knowledge” but then at the end of his little explanation (which is clearly him trying to down Imami Shiism) says it is the people of the covenant and knowledge from the Ummah. From the Ummah? That means a part of it. Not the whole. It just goes back to what he was trying to nullify in the first place.
 
I digress. Aside from the fact that a bunch of fallible, normal people agreeing upon something can never amount to the verdict of a Ma`sum, this fabled ijma` just never happens. There is never any agreement.
 
This leads us to point #5:
 
5 - The Extreme amount of Ikhtilaf and the basis of most rulings being Ra’i [Personal Opinion] and Qiyas [Analogical Ruling Comparison]
 
Salaah is the pillar of the religion and it is said it is the first thing we will be asked about. So, as a Sunni, how will I pray? The 4 mathahib disagree on, like, 100 different things in Salaah. Do I leave my hands at my side like Malik? Or do I fold them like the other three? Okay, if I fold them, do I put them on under my navel, on the chest, between the two? When I give my wife a kiss on the cheek, does it break my wudu? Do I even have to recite Sura al-Fatiha in my prayer? Abu Hanifa said I don’t need to. Hey, is the Basmala a part of Surah al-Fatiha? They all differ on this. Do I have to recite when I recite Fatiha in salaah, assuming fatiha is even necessary? Malikis don’t even think it’s part of the Surah, but others do. Isn’t this Tahreef? Abu Hanifa said I have to shorten my prayers when traveling, the others say I do not! Are the prayers that accompany the daily prayers that are usually referred to as “Sunna prayers” are they musthaabb or are they wajib? Is there a difference between wajib and fardh? Can women lead men in prayer? Some of the Sunni scholars actually said yes to this, among them was Ibn Taymiyya and Tabari.
 
How about within one school on non-Fiqhi issues. The narrations on tashbeeh: Ibn al-Jawzi said they were metaphorical, Ibn Taymiyya said they were mostly literal… Salafis tend to say things like they’re all literal. Now that is quite scary. Then you have this whole mess with the Ash`ariyya, Maturidiyya, Athariyya, etc. It only adds to the ikhtilaf. 
 
Now, one might say, “But the mujtahideen of the Imami Shi`ah also have ikhtilaf.” Correct. However, our ikhtilaf does not stretch into the insane amount it does between the mathahib. The other reason, which I think is far more important, is because the ijtihad of our `ulema is ijtihad based on the nass [text/legal proof]. Not based on Ra’i and Qiyas. Ra’i is one’s own personal view and opinion on the matter - that has no place in the religion. Qiyas is analogical comparison of two things and finding a similarity and then transferring the ruling of one to another. This does not work and can be applied and misapplied to anything. And because the sunni hadith corpus is extremely lacking in the area of ahkam and often very unclear, they have to resort to these things, in addition to istihsaan which is another can of worms, very often. 
 
Our scholars continue to do ijtihad, but they are not doing ijtihad by 1 - Blindly following the usool of the ancient Fuqaha 2 - their ijtihad is based upon text and a highly developed `ilm al-Usool, which the Sunni world has altogether abandoned ijtihad in. I dare say some try to call it an innovation (probably Salafis). Even the dispute between the Akhbariyya and Usuliyya that came up around the era of the Safavids, this was an usuli dispute. Even then, their conclusions in fatwa were still mostly the same, especially in al-ahkaam al-iltizamiyya [wajib, haram, batil, saheeh, etc].
 
The Hanbali school originally didn’t involve themselves in Qiyas and such, at least Ahmad b. Hanbal didn’t, as far as I know. But after him, his students and successors found that what they have from the ahadeeth is insufficient and they all ended up adopting al-Shafi`i’s procedural qiyas.
 
These are just some of the few flaws I see to the Sunni interpretation of Islam.
 
في أمان الله

You mean Shias can eat Sunnis?
 
So who are your 12 Imams?  

Hi Placid
 
 
Are you implying that I was deliberately lying? 
 
I asked you those questions because you always keep saying that you are here to learn. And I believe it is one of the cardinal points of the Islamic faith that the commands of the prophet are just as binding on believers as God's.
 
That is what I wanted you to understand. To say that Muslims can follow the Quran but not the words of the Prophet, is just not acceptable.
 
So if the Prophet commanded believers to obey someone, that's it. No further questions should be necessary. 
 
Anyway, to cut a long story short, in reply to your original question, I will give you two verses from the top of my head, one of which explicitly requires obedience to a representative of the Prophet. And the other does implicitly so.
 
[4:59] "Obey God and the apostle and those in authority . If you differ in any matter, bring it before God and the apostle, if you believe in God and the Day of Reckoning.  That is better and more seemly."
 
[4:83] "And when tidings, whether of peace or alarm, come to them, they spread them about. But if they would had referred to the Prophet and those in authority, those wishing to find out would have known.  Except for God's bounty, except for a few, you would all have followed Satan." 
 
All Muslims agree that  "those in authority" refers to the Prophet's authorized representatives.
 
The only difference is that Sunnis believe that the first of those was Abu Bakr while Shias believe it to be Imam Ali.