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In the Name of God بسم الله


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About IgnoranceDiffers4rmLogic

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  1. We have, without doubt, sent down the Reminder [i.e., the Quran]; and We will assuredly guard it [from corruption].} (Al-Hijr 15:9) ^ That is what most Sunni and Shias believe in, & me being just a Muslim can assure anyone of this..yes discussing that hadith claims incompleteness is okay but I think majority of Shia's wont try justify the incompleteness and if you do see any do so...just think they dont represent the majority. Shia & Sunni fiqh are bigger than the opinions of people of forums. Again no offence..I have come along way in my understanding of being a Muslim and studied and respect sunnis and shias, I can't see the opinions of some represent the Majority. Apologise if anything offended anyone.
  2. Always state not a sunni nor a shia but have studied both and have interacted with both just a muslim.. The video you showed he was giving an opiniodn of someone else and not his own...btw I dont think we can pinpoint saying Shia and Sunnis believe that the Quran is Incomplete... what I c is the Sunni's in this forum are trying to make the a Shia admit that the Quran is Incomplete..but I doubt a Shia will because all muslims know and believe in the Quran being incomplete is kufr...However, what I think the Sunnis are not understanding is that the Shia's are saying that in MUSLIM literature im emphasising MUSLIM not shia or sunni.. that there are some Hadith <-- again hadiths not Quran... or opinions which state its incomplete...the Shia scholars are just willing to discuss these topics it doesnt mean they believe init... its like me im a SCIENCE teacher I may teach kids about evolution but it doesnt mean I believe init. for example, ive read the following... Reported 'Aisha (RA): ‘the verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times was revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) expired and we were occupied by his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper.’ (Sunan Ibn Majah, Hadith 1944) where are those verses? does this suggest incompletness? now I suggest anyone who reads this doesnt go in and try explaining that its weak its this its that to try move the argument away because thats scape goating...its written in our litrature and any true academic in any subject will want to test a hypothesis and wonder why its written it may not be true it may be false but theres no harm in discussion...the shia scholars are the only ones that are just willing to discuss these issues from various viewpoints but to the sunni scholars its like they are doing kufr...no brother there is no harm in discussing what has been written.. both sides need to take a more rational approach to understand one another than just saying kufr weak sahih etc it doesnt change the fact that its written in various angles, Note: to the shias...i know you believe the Quran is complete just tell them that you do believe its complete rather than trying to prove that people in Ahlus Sunnah have suggested otherwise...because majority of sunni's don't take those arguements seriously. No offence to anyone I have tried to be as unbaised as possible...
  3. I normally don't post much anymore because I'm quiet stuck in the middle, being a revert that dived into Sunnism going to deep and in that process finding Shi'aism diving to deep then had to just take a step back and try find my feet and try understand how to be a Good Muslim.. I have to admit Good post because I read allot on the forum and do not message allot.... Just a word to All Shias....When I reverted I got into Sunnism allot where I did find it frustarting because its hard to agree to disagree, but one thing I loved so much about Shiaism is that they actually seem as 1 group, and that always were willing to Agree to Disagree... Even though I don't class my self as a Sunni or a Shia..I know how it feels to Love God, The Prophet and His Family...and I respect the Shia because I know that extra Love for the family can bring every dispute every disagreement in a forum like this and make you all ONE. Good on the guy who made this POST =]
  4. I have seen all of them.. thanks for your reply, Sayed Ammar has been very influential in my understanding if Islam, it really helped me with lots of concepts because im surrounded by many Sunni and Shia friends, and tbh I agree with allot of what the Shia's believe. However, not attacking you im just trying to understand because I've never hurd this concepts of ranks till now, I always believed : 1. Imamat is lower than Prophethood & still do. 2. That rank of Imamat that Abhram got if Higher you need to be a prophet first. For example, You cant get A-levels(imamat) without GCSE's(prophethood). I always believed Imam Ali is an Imam for man kind interms of him knowing the Sunnah of the Prophet the best and his guidence is higher than any other living creature. I m not debating my opinion is not worth much bt, im just kind of interested in understanding this, but again it doesnt make sense. btw I do believe Allah swt can inspire Imam Ali..he lifted the door of khyber with that inspiration...what I dont get is Imamat being higher than Prophethood, I come from a Christian background and if this concept is true then the Imams are greater than Prophet Jesus? Im not trying to put down the greatness of the Imam's...tbh it does'nt even matter who is greater! they all have influenced my life equally and I Love them all.. sorry if I offended anyone but this was the first ever time where I quesitoned any of the Shia beliefs..Through my revert period I questioned Sunnism day and night and never questioned Shiaism because I never found any questions all question were misconceptions..but just feeling kind of confused...
  5. Hey, I am a revert Muslim and for a long time I have been following the Shia ideology and Sunni ideology but tend to take make my decisions on rational and logic...I am a huge fan of Ammar, However, after listening to this lecture It was the first time where I felt like..... wth ?? :wacko: Let me just get my beliefs straight so no one attacks me: 1. Believe in One God/ follow 5 pillars of Islam 2. Prophet Mohammed is his final messenger 3. Prophet Mohammed pbuh left us the Quran & Ahlulbayt...we learn the sunnah from them! 4. Ali is his successor... 5. Following guidence from the 12 Imams ----Litreature In terms of litreature, I have a firm belief that no book after the Quran can be sahih, however, all are a good source of knowledge.. Now to the lecture...there were times where I did not understand: 1. Ali is higher than Prophets?(there is no doubt Ali is high but why the need to make his existence higher than prophets?) 2. Sounded like he was saying Imam Ali & Allah swt have direct contact...Prophet Mohammed pbuh talked through Jibraeel.. 3. Prophet Adam dua when leaving heaven? not attacking im trying to understand...
  6. @muslim720(im nt a shia nor a sunni) not taking any sides just a Muslim trying to make sense of this topic bt... Ibn Taymiyyah... when the whole post is givng authorities like : Sahih International: Pickthall: Yusuf Ali: Shakir: Muhammad Sarwar: You cant come back and reply Ibn Taymiyahh says this and then post evidence from a website called "[Edited Out]" to make Shia books look weak, thats why noone replied to you, its not that they can not reply, im a revert and I can tell that the content you posted was so Biased, and had no standing, Your post made me think: 1. that Allah swt was created from Muslims born as Muslims, 2. Shia books are weak because on the narrators 3. Ibn Taymiyah is the biggest authority on Islam I dont want to sound offensive but because I read what you said, just wanted to to give u some feedback, maybe be a bit more open minded and read different opinions, because if you have gone deep in to this topic and you talk to people who have read allot, like myself it can be quiet embarassing when your only reference is ibn taymiyah and a website called [Edited Out] :cry: . and @ where you said "Rather they declared those who spoke about such matter to be innovators, and went to great lengths to censure them." if it wasnt for myself to talk about this matter maybe I wouldnt have come to Islam, so I can not take that talking about such issues is forbidden because understanding God for me was a big step in comming to Islam, and I dont think im an Innovator brother. Whereas, your saying you cannot talk about these issues if the people around me had this mind set my questions I had would never be answered may have turned me away from the truth.
  7. Firstly, I always point out im not a Shia nor a Sunni so you understand that their is no bias, at a time I was diving into Shias ism and then Sunnism but now I have adopted a more centralised approach of just being a Muslim. On the other hand, my understanding is Shia's dont implement every single hadith...I was of the belief from talking with Shia's that if something is written in their books that disagree's with the Quran they dont take the hadith... and I have learnt the Shia way of prayer and It no where calls upon others than Allah, so that Hadith of "O my master Fatima help me" cant you clearly see that it is not implemented because it goes against the Quran, if it was implemented then we would see every shia saying that in there prayers. To be honest I think many Shias are surpised when they even read something like that in there books. So that hadith where it says Asking fatima "o my master help me", is invalid because the Quran states that you should call upon Allah and only Allah, and when compared to the Shia Salat this is true because they only call upon Allah. I would just like to add, that when a Shia or sunni reads something from a Shia / sunni book, you dont have to defend it I remeber that @Shia's always came across as more open minded, so when you read something that sounds like Shirk in a Shia book... a shia normally would say "that is not authentic because it goes against the Quran". I dont think there is any shame in admiting that a book has errors within it, end of the day we are all human, and accepting errors in a book shows tollerance if anything, a errorless book can only be the Quran. A good post but Logic Islam... I think you should have made the post "THIS DOES NOT REPRESENT THE MAJORITY" and condem the belief, because I dont know of any shia saying " O my master Fatima help me" in salat, as for the Ya Ali is like saying Ya Allah, the videos is 53 seconds, I would like to see what the lecture is about but im not defending it because that does sound wrong because this is not the values of Mohammed, Ali, Hassan, Hussein or Fatima. Just remember that Hussein died sacraficing his life and children for the Justice, Values and Prayer of the one who he Called upon and that is Allah swt. If saying Ya Ali is like saying Ya Allah, then after every action Hussein on Karbala would'nt be calling upon Allah. But the only person he called upon was Allah
  8. btw not a sunni or a shia I just like saying how it is..sorry if I cause any offence to anyone..not my intention... I just like to state my opinion Not taking sides but logic gives you the best answer here.... Ali is explicitly referred to as someone that 33:33 refers too.. (explicitly means a piece of text that states he is a member of the house) How isit logically possible that Ali whos is agreed amongst all Muslims can be declared War against by another person(Ayesha)(Battle of Camel) and both are pure?. It just doesnt make sense. So if you think the verse purifies any other than the 5 you are going to have to come up with some profound logic or irreputable piece of text. Im sorry if this seems offensive, it shouldnt but the reasons i say this is because... I cant have someone trying to undermine Allah swt's purification/wisdom because the christians turn around and say to Muslims if Ali is purfied and Ayesha is purfied this is some funny purified creation of GOD becaue they are trying to kill one another..how can GOD purify his existence yet one wants the other dead?the purification must not be that powerfull or may not even exist? <<-- thats what christians turn around and tell us.. You would never find Moses trying to kill Mohammed...why because they are the best of Allah swt's creation...in the same way if we as Muslims believe Ali and Ayesha are one of Allah's most trusted creation why is there one point in History that they are on a battle field fighting against eachother? obviously one out of the two has made a mistake and therefore is not purified.. The conclusion should be based on whats in your heart...assumptions only make you believe something which is not true..
  9. @justTheTruth.. Word of advice..you cant go around telling people what they are Im a Muslim...you cant just associate this title to me of a "Quranist". How can you ask for unity and then give titles, this would just cause friction, but im not that type of guy I feel a sense of arrogance, that you think you have the ability to give people titles. Dont worry brother im just letting you know in future some might take offence. For example: "Im a Black Male" and then you tell me noo "Your a Black British Male", why must u add a title to myself which I dont associate Im a "Muslim". If im honest with you I find that people who come to the Religion of Islam see these issues that disunite the two groups in a different light. For example, I found it very strange when lots of my Sunni & Shia friends showed me contradictions in The Bible and when it came to Hadith my Shia friends started pointing out contradictions in Hadith but my Sunni friends were like you cant do that. It was a bit of double standards because they were ripping the bible apart with contradictions at the time, but took offence when it come to there own literature "ive never understood this". However, the main point is my friends are Shia and Sunni we all learn to agree to disagree, and thats what the both sides need to do. Also the generalisations need to stop..... "Not every Shia beats himself, not every Shia Curses just as Not every Sunni is a terrorist" Yes there are sects with in Shiaism that would lead you to become a person who holds these extereme views which cause hatered...but the majority arent.. Just as there are sects with in Sunnism that would lead you to come a person who hold exterme view which causes terrorism...but the majority arent... Unity - 1. Sunnis need to condem hatred towards Shia 2. Learn to agree to disagree 3. Stop Generalising Im so glad that Allah swt gave me friends that have shown me both sides and I know excatly how to not get dragged into it.
  10. @justTheTruth I'm not a Quranist, and may I add I didnt get offended by being called a Quranist. Furthermore, I'm not being biased trust me Ive been very crtical of Shia Islam just as I have of Sunni Islam. I must admit I was at a point when I was choosing Sides...(which ive learnt now is not the way) But if im honest with you im telling you the truth. I've Never hurd Shia Imams Call Sunnis Kafirs but I have hured it the other way around, I merly suggested that this causes friction "You cant Unite against people you consider NON Muslims." So the first step would be for the Sunni Muslims to stand up against Shia Hatered because believe it or not im pretty sure u know this "THEY ARE THE MINORITY" Myself I am an educated man, it is illogical to expect the first step from the MINORITY. let me give an example: America vs Sri Lanka ... now who holds the power to end war and to unite America or Sri Lanka any prudent person will say the Majority(America) has the power similar to this situation it takes the Majority which is the Sunnis to take the first step... and that has to be to condem hatred. You cant expect to be in a fight of 1 against 10 and expect the 1 to make the decision for the 10 its illogical...in the real world ratios matter... BTW about the issues of Islam..Prophet Mohammed pbuh said "Quran Ahlulabayt never go astray" ... now thats the standard me reaching the sunnah will be judged upon ... this doesnt mean I reject hadith which seems Logical but it is the standard which has been set...studying law has shown me when you quote something different from what has been written something is wrong...no double meanings... Im just a Muslim...who got close to Islam when he hurd how Hussain was so passionate about his Grandfathers Religion that he would give his head insted of his hand...that made me open the book straight away.... (this doesnt make me a Shia btw) just a Muslim...
  11. @justTheTruth... never mind the other guys comment...about the "sunni boys", you will always find some that are just not willing to understand, what your aim is. From someone who doesnt class himself as a Sunni nor a Shia.. Just as a Revert..with 0 bias... I have to say the door of unity is more open from the Shia side than it is from the Sunni side.. what do I mean? I always hear Shia's Calling for Unity...I never hear a Shia call a Sunni a Kaffir but im sorry to say I do hear some Sunnis Call Shias kafirs etc.. Unity can only be achieved if one another can tolerate eachothers opinions...and Shias do tend to be more tolerant...yes ofcourse if u praise Yazeed or Muawiyah they wont be but that is natural because the Shia think of the Prophets family as there own... However, the first step is to stop the "hatred towards the shia", you cant have members of you group spreading hatered towards those you want to unite with, it just wouldnt work. If the major scholars of Ahlus Sunnah stand up and keeping calling for unity and condem those who call Shias kafirs etc... then you can step forward...
  12. I accept your point of free will and predestination, in the sense of every single human I also believe in limited but in the case of Prophethood or Purification I must agree witht he sunni argument that these events are predestination, it makes more sense...However, something im still trying to understand with Shia islam is the 12 Imam's, dont get me wrong I have read allot about the Companions of the Prophet and the Imam's...im a well educated man to know that in the case of Jafa Al Sadiq..he was very knowledgeable and his perspective of theology make a lot of sense. However, im just trying to understand the12 sucessors whoever they are through predestination(i dont see no harm in trying to understand what the shias believe in). The Prophet talked about the future tense which only Allah swt could have told him. So if in the case of being an infalible or being an Imam is NOT predestination then the infalibility of the prophets family could also NOT be predestination... The prophet wouldnt say there will be 12 successors with so much confidence if Allah SWT didnt pre destinate it to be. There is a reason why we find so much extra ordinary hadith of Ali ibn Abi Talib before the verse of purification, For example the prophet raises his virtues so high with so much confidence, if Shia's believe that the companions can deviate then why was Ali so pious, humble from the start throughout his life...because his purity was pre destination. Allah SWT will, wisdom is so strong and sometimes I do wonder that the Prophets family is a great example of his wisdom.
  13. @justTheTruth - reply to last one Brother, I believe she was infalible not because she cant sin but because she wouldnt throughout her life...try understand this point, it took me a long time to understand this aswell. Islamic theology says that God knows everything and Muslims believe in pre destination...so him planning for her to be Al Nisa and to be purified, would have been pre planned...much like the Prophet pbuh... Now Allah SWT chose the Prophet because he was Al Ameen, there must have been a reasons why he was always trusted and That was Allah SWT. Its not that the verse 33:33 made him infalible its just that it was announced for those who follow the Quran. The incident of the cloak was an announciation of there infalibility but them to be purfied was predestination. Just understand that what I have read is that infalibilty is where they have free will to sin but they wouldnt because of there devotion to Allah SWT. That's why Allah SWT purfies them, because he loves there devotion, piety, morals, values. I've searched as a test against the Shia but brother honestly I havent found any flaws in there characters before or after the 33:33 verse..dont get me wrong im not trying to say they are superior to anyone...but stories I have read and the Morals Values I have read are something else, that us living in the 21st century cannot live up to. the verse: And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purification. Its says keep away..so the period of keeping away could be from birth. It's like say my child is 18, I tell my sister "I have been keeping him away from drugs." Now that period could be from birth..and I believe I speak for myself not for any sect...that when Allah swt shows so much love to someone that he can make them pure...normal humans that he makes pure...shows how much he loves them and in return anyone that Allah swt loves I love...I have no right to deny anything that is requested from someone that has been purified by Allah swt...thats why I was so suprised when I read that she got angered...It still puzzles me that a creation that God loved so much could be angered, and not only for an hour a day a month but untill her death.. I always get sad & confused when I think about this issue, because it makes you think...if this issue never happend maybe there would be more peace between sunnis and shias..the other events like Ghadeer...is important but no one hurt anyones feelings. In Christianity one thing I learnt was physical harm or emotional harm, there is no difference, and once u make a mistake you should resolve it...I admit I believe Abu Bakr did make a mistake..but I also get puzzled why didnt he try sort it out then atleast we could say everything was sorted before she passed away end of the day it was his best friends daughter who Allah loved and Prophet Mohammed loved...this always confuses me because if everything was fine and resolved after the prophet died there would be more unity now.
  14. @justTheTruth - reply to last reply... in your last post you said to me that the verse in now way applies to Abu Bakr...brother please understand I have nothing against Abu Bakr before saying what I'm saying im just trying make sense of what you said... Certainly Allah was well pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance to you under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity on them and rewarded them with a near victory (48:18) Now, you may say this is for all the companions and the hypocrites verse doesnt apply to Abu Bakr, because he gave bayat... your logic is correct, however its not just that someone can be included in this verse and later commit acts which undermine their bayat. It's like saying God Loves Him..he killed someone..God Still Loves Him(not implying Abu Bakr killed someone). You can do two things: 1. Question the Quran and say it contradicts history.. or 2. The verse of bayat, and about those who migrated is for those who stayed sincere. Now according to the Abu Bakr being right by not giving Land etc...brother the way I see it as a revert its not about right and wrong, you were lucky enough to be born into Islam but by saying Abu Bakr was right your straight away saying Fatima was wrong? If Fatima is wrong to ask then God purified a very stubborn arrogant woman and made her Al Nisa...by you accepting Abu Bakr is right you indirectly impy she was wrong...so how can Allah swt purify a woman and make her Al Nisa when she is so arrogant stubborn that she stays angry with her fathers best friend even till the day of her death... Brother, I had to come to the path of Islam im not taking sides I have my own opinion on the Shia as I do with the Sunnis. However, anything that Question Allah SWT actions I have to take the side of Allah SWT, I find it so hard that Allah SWT purifies calls someone Al Nisa that she can be soo arrogant and stubborn and not forgiving? Remember its not about right and wrong its about Allah SWT... My opinon(not worth much just if your interested) : Regarding Abu Bakr, I just say he was falible he made a mistake by not answering the prophets daughters request, and humans make mistakes, I dont defend Abu Bakrs decision because defending it means you question Fatimas purification and her being Al Nisa, a Woman that is Al Nisa would be the most forigiving pious woman so something must have happend for her to not forgive(Allah knows best). sry about long post
  15. @justTheTruth -- Read this if you want NO BIAS no sunni no shia leverage Brother, I am a revert Muslim that has seen both sides with no bias and who has hate for noone. Firstly, no one can decide anyones fait..only Allah swt knows, his mercy dictates this. Having said that...the logic of the Shia makes more sense than the logic of other sects. Now you are right those who are Sincere and stayed sincere for there lives the verse you quote its applicable to them: ""... So, those who migrated and were driven out of their homes and suffered hurt in My way, and who fought and were killed, I will certainly cover their evil deeds, ..." the reason i say sincere is because there is a verse that abrogrates the understanding of this verse in the Quran which is : And (however) among the Arabs around you are hypocrites, and also among the people of Madina (there are some who) persist in hypocrisy whom you (O Muhammad) do not know. We, We know them, and We shall punish them twice; then they will be sent to a painful doom. (Qur’an 9:101) Now Allah swt says "you dont know them, we know them" by adding this clause it means that some werent sincere so you cannot blindly apply the verse to all the Muhajars and Ansar. Therefore, the shia's logic that all were not sincere makes sense because the Quran testifies to this. Now the problems comes in hadith....there are hadiths which may show and undermine the credibility of certain individuals. One example: Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325: Narrated 'Aisha: Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Now, either Fatima is wrong to be angry which means Allah swt(god forgive me) made a mistake by purifying her in (33:33) and her decision is wrong or Abu Bakr angered the daughter of the Prophet?. Now what we think doesnt matter, but with logic if someone angered my daughter tbh I would get hurt and I read in the quran that If you anger the Prophet you anger Allah swt. Now is this enough for me to cast judgement NO..who am I am no one...but does this give reason to disassociate... i'm afraid YES...it's hard following someone and trusting when you know they may have angered Allah swt. NO MUSLIM SHOULD CURSE...because if they believe in their Lord they will know if you can see what THEY did then 100% Allah swt wouldnt have missed it, Brother im going to be honest, I have many sunni freinds and many shia freinds allot of them help me understand but as soon as you see any arrogance on any forum be it Shia or Sunni, just know that the person being arrogant does not represent Muslims... just keep that in mind when you read these response..I see allot of arrogance in this thread from those who dont know there own fait... I rather not judge others yet worry about my fait... Allah SWT is the all knowing all seeing.
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