Rational Thinking

The Quran is explicit. Adam was designed away from earth and sent down on earth, and we did not evolve from a common ancestor with apes.

This case simply would not happen in reality . Usually doctors have drugs which they use depending on their CCG's and if they want to invest money in putting a patient on a drug trial - pharmacists do not deal in drug discoveries. Secondly, the husband could get a loan, or perhaps go private with the intention he pays a deposit and then pays it back for the rest of his life or up to the point he has payed back the drug. I do see the gist of what you mean though, if there was a drug being offered, that could cure her paticular cancer, i would steal the drug. I can kill for self defence or to save someones life(if they are being attacked) so why can't i steal to save someones life?

Mashallah. Perhaps the issue indeed is complex. I was aware of this verse, but thanks for bringing it here.

So it would be ok for me to say "inshali" instead of "inshallah" because the will of the imam is Gods will? I accept Imams do not disobey God, but God has infinite knowledge. Surely hill will resides on this infinite knowledge and awareness? The imams seem to be demi-gods to me. They can be called upon to grant dua (with the belief God gives them power). They are omni present. Their will is Gods will, they have power over every atom?

My point was not about disease being cureable. It was about Dua being absolutely useless until we actually obtained cures for disease. And people get cured without Dua. So why do it? Is it symbolic to give thanks?

I see what you say, but if i stand in a chamber with no gravity, i can lift both legs up in the air. Eitherway, you are describing a scientific impossibility on earth (in the leg analogy, i have heard Mawlana's use a lot). My point is that everyone has their own independent free will. There are so many choices being made, so many premutations of what could happen. Someone can randomly decide to shoot you, and you can randomly albeit accidently decide to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's just a random occurence, not any kind of "plan". I see kids rotting in africa after being malnourished, kids who have HIV, people dying from random tsunami's in muslim countries and other countries impoverished by society. I do not blame God, i just say it's random. No-one has any special plan for anyone else. God can interfere, but no-one can put together an argument that makes that plausible given the contextual history and nature of humanity.

Exactly. Although Allah swt has no plan for us, because that defeats the point of free will, i do agree with the first two segments. No matter how bad it gets, you exist and to you i'll return. Thus, Dua effectively becomes symbollic in a way? Precisely why i said i have much to learn. In essence i have read , asked, debated, and listened to lectures. I am ready to desist from my view if you can use arguments to convince me of yours(: I want to be convinced. I do DUA anyway. wasallam. Surely if that is true, then before we could find a cure for cancer, the plethora of cancer sufferers who made dua , surely one should have been cured atleast? Why is this not the case? Why is it only until we can find a cure that the suffers are cured, and not the power of Dua helping the sincere? If i look back in history, small pox cholera, hiv, cancer, bacterial infection...all of these wreacked havock. No Dua stopped it and people died left right and center. It is only until we can find cures that people are actually helped... So why thank the Dua and not the cure, if when we humans were totally helpless, doing all we could, and sincere, Dua never helped? I absolutely agree with the last line, which really describes Dua in a symbolic way. I see people dying or born absolutely mutated. I may die a death soon, and i think, well so much for "Gods lovley plan". It all seems random, all in accordance with the blind law of causality. I can probably find atheists who have remissions too. On the whole though, cancer was lethal in the past/less lethal but still alarming today.

You are only born male or female, unless you are in the rare rare rare and almost unheard of cases where you're born mutated(impossible really). You feel you're a man because of physchology. There is no state of emotion of being a man. Every man is different, some more "femenine" than others due to their own subjective experiences in life. There is absolutely scant evidence to support the theory one can be born 'as a man' in a womans body. Or vice versa. What i do recommend is to first realise the above, and seek theraphy and counselling. I know this sounds harsh, but it's the truth. There is no evidence to support any of this is anything but physchological.

Salam. An insightful answer as usual sister. If i analyse your post and narration, you attest that Dua works only when balanced with work. This is a concept i have understood and mentioned in my OP. The truth of life is, unlike in the story you mentioned, Dua and work does not give results always. What would Bahlul( i like this guy btw) have said if the camel did not get better ? Thus my argument states that cancer was incureable until recent times. No matter what treatments you did and effort you put in along side Dua, the cancer would not go unless you used a treatment which was not yet to be discovered. Thus, if we analyse it it seems the actual medication is the common denominator between getting better from cancer. Yet, there are those who do not do dua and get better, and those that do and do not get better. Plus, without the treatment there is no recovery. So, Dua does not seem to as the narration suggests increase the chances of getting better. The neccesary condition is clearly the treatment and Dua is not a neccesary condition. So if it is not neccesary...why do it? For symbolic purposes ? Or to yield an unproven effect?

Imam Ali's 31st letter/sermon where he explicitly says to only call upon Allah swt alone and that the waseelah is salat (i read it on SC). The Quran explicitly stating we must only call upon Allah swt alone, only by his names, and not to join others when calling on him. Imam Ali himself using "Ya Allah" + The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. You make the claim Ali a.s. should be called on. As he Quran says, provide your evidence? Wasallam

I have watched lectures about dua, read the philosophy of duas, reasoned about it with myself, even watched a debate amongst theists and atheists. I even read a book. I admit i have a lot to learn, but it would be unfair to dismiss my post so easily. If Dua is symbolic to acknowledge God is above us - i agree. If Dua is meant to cause a physical manifestation - there is no proof it happens, and this can occur without Dua. Cancer could not be cured before , even though people were sincere and it was the best for them. Thus, Dua is powerless, best for someone or not, unless the laws of causality, scientific and evidence based treatment is in existence.

I think this refers to polygamy? If God almighty allowed Polygamy for the Jewish people, clearly there is nothing objectively wrong with it, so long as they can treat each wife (up to a limit of 4 on islam) equally. If they can't they should, as the Quran says marry only one. How would you justify a divorced woman remarrying to another man? The concept is equal to a temporary marrige. salam(:

If you can provide me credible evidence of any of the Imams saying we can say "Ya Ali Madad" i might pause and reconsider - might i repeat.

Despite Allah swt saying his names are the most beautiful and to only call on him, despite him saying not to associate or call others and to only call upon him, despite Imam Ali a.s. specifically saying we need to address Allah swt alone in our dua... we still say YA ALI MADAD = O Ali help me. We also say that grant our dua faster than just saying YA Allah MADAD = o Allah help me. Now am i the only one who can see the inconsistency and outright flaw here? In my personal opininon, it's shirk. Why would someone swap Ya Allah Madad, for Ya Ali Madad The Dua is not to Allah swt alone. The Dua is adressed to Imam Ali a.s. alone, with the intention Allah swt has given him the power. God would not reveal a religion , spend a lot of verses making it clear to only call upon him, if he felt we need scholars to make such a basic inference. If indeed it's complex and we are learning, for sure we know Ya Alllah madad is ok to say. So why risk it - if we indeed are learning- to say Ya Ali madad, something that atleast on the surface goes totally against the Quran?

I do not accept saying Ya Ali Madad, Neither did Ayatullah Fadallah, and a lot of users here. That is for another discussion, and i dislike needless confrontations so will promptly move on. So you accept that dua's alone can not help. However...if to get something you need to work, then why do Dua? Atheists do the same thing, no dua neccesary. To add, what about cancer and all the ilnesses we could not cure? People did their best, put trust in Allah swt, tried to find cures...but there were no medical cures or treatments, so they died despite prayers. Thus, treatment is a neccesary condition. We don't see believers surviving anymore than non believers. We all do dua - even an atheist does. He hopes he will get cured by whatever power that can help him - right? What about an agnostic, not heard of islam, or a deist, who has not heard of islam or dua - how do they get cured? People have always been calling on spirits/supernatural entities before we realised evidence based medicine cured ilnesses and not prayers. So where exactly does this leave prayers? I am asking to learn. Thanks for the insightful answer.