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In the Name of God بسم الله


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    Deist-muslim partially leaning towards shia islam

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  1. “If a man acquires by force a slave-girl, then has sexual intercourse with her after he acquires her by force, and if he is not excused by ignorance, then the slave-girl will be taken from him, he is required to pay the fine, and he will receive the punishment for illegal sexual intercourse.” (Imam Al Shaafi’i, Kitaabul Umm, Volume 3, page 253)
  2. Yet you cry at the thought the Imams Women and family could have been raped by Yazid as prisinors of war? Not even Yazids army could do a thing like that. You open up a can of worms when you say men rape slave women. The women of karbala then should equally have been raped when they were captured.
  3. No, you're wrong. It isn't right for a man to cheat in the west, it's looked down upon by almost everyone. Cheating is seen as a disgusting act. I live in the 'west', and i am well versed with social norms. Only a very pitiful vain man would cheat on his wife. You only need one wife to fulfill sexual needs. The fact you have cheated means you are unfaithful. What an absolute myth it is, that men have a greater need for sex than women. Women at times have a greater urge than men do.It's a total and utter lie that women who not get frequent urges. But hey ho, we can't let them get married to other men because it will hurt us. But wait, let us marry other women and hurt them YOLO. Islam and the Quran have made it clear. "..if you can not do justice between all of them THEN MARRY ONLY ONE". It's surprising in the culture we have today, when the need for polgamy is no longer prevelant (women have rights, states have benifits for homeless woman, states provide help to lone women/single mothers) that people still want polygamy ? It was there to enable men to help the widowed , women who need financial help and a family. Women: if any man tries to play any tricks on you, divorce his (no comment). Simples. No nonsense.
  4. I do not mind people reading the translation of the Duas the Imams have recited. However, i think Dua is a personal connection with you and God. We often read the dua's in arabic, and since i was a child, hardly any of us had a clue what on earth any of us were saying and this has continued to adulthood. God almighty knows the demographics of humanity. Why would he make something as personal as a dua or as universally needed only accesible by people who happen to stumble upon x imams name,, or x imams dua. The majority of the world do not, and they call to the creator of the universe alone, in their personal prayers. Now these Dua's are lovely, their translations seem very deep and well thought out - so read the translation if you do not know arabic. However, no dua will be more powerful than a honest, open one by flawed human beings. Allah swt has made it clear in the Quran we should ask him alone. He has made it clear it does not matter where we are, how 'pious' we are, how much we have wronged ourselves, he is closer to us than our jugular vein. We should ask him in our language, in our words. Reciting surah iklas 46 times and expecting a magical spell to occur is a very regressing concept. Before this surah was revealed, how were people getting dua's answered? Why on earth would it require the recitaiton of a dua only revelaed 2600+? years after christ. The majority of the world before the Quran did not know the Quran. The torah and bible was altered. The only dua anyone could make ? The personal dua to God. The Quran is a guide. Not a set of magical spells. Anyone reciting it x number of times, or any other dua 56 times is fooling themselves. No-one says do not learn the dua's , do not learn how the imams praised God. I am asserting that the majority just get a dusty dua book, read arabic phrases in parrotical fashion and close it after reciting a recommended dua 46.5x times. Guillible? That's an understatement.
  5. Actually, while both a wife and a woman are mahram, common sence dictates that they have different rights. She is not his wife, the slave girl did not consent. There was no contract agreed between the two. She is a prisinor of war. The man has permission to have children with her IF SHE CONSENTS. If she does not and is uncomfortable, it is best to free her. The moment you condone the raping of captured women, atheists will chew you up and spit you out and say another religion bites the dust. + a wife is a woman who loves you and has agreed to be with you. a slave woman probably has lost her husband, her kids are away from her, and she is in emotional and physical trauma. Good luck answering to that woman on the day of judgement when you rape her. I would personally physically destroy a man if i stumbled upon him raping a woman.I would easily answer on the day of judgement.
  6. In our view the man who rapes a woman, regardless of whether she is a virgin or not, if she is a free woman he must pay a “dowry” like that of her peers, and if she is a slave he must pay whatever has been detracted from her value. The punishment is to be carried out on the rapist and there is no punishment for the woman who has been raped, whatever the case. (Imam Maalik, Al-Muwatta’, Volume 2, page 734) “If a man acquires by force a slave-girl, then has sexual intercourse with her after he acquires her by force, and if he is not excused by ignorance, then the slave-girl will be taken from him, he is required to pay the fine, and he will receive the punishment for illegal sexual intercourse.” (Imam Al Shaafi’i, Kitaabul Umm, Volume 3, page 253) Salamunalykum, I recently made a thread to discuss what 'slave' girls actually were in Islam. I came across the fact that 'slave' girls automatically become mahram to you. This really did send shock waves across my body. It comes to no surprise that when i later learnt that some of us actually think the permission to have sex with a slave girl translates to having permission to rape them made my compelled to do more research and produce this thread. Islam constantly tells us to treat others like we wish to be treated. To not be unjust, or caus anyone physical or emotional trauma. Rape means when a woman does not constent to be with you, i.e a life long partner, and you force her to commit sexual intercourse, you have truly commited one disgusting act. Islam allows men to have kids with 'slave women'. This mean a man does have the option. If the slave woman consents, and the man does so, she automatically becomes free if she becomes pregnant. Let me use SUNNI sources. Your servants and your slaves are your brothers. Anyone who has slaves should give them from what he eats and wears. He should not charge them with work beyond their capabilities. If you must set them to hard work, in any case I advise you to help them. Source: Bukhari, Iman, 22; Adab, 44; Muslim, Iman, 38–40; Abu Dawud, Adab, 12 Jabir ibn 'Abdullah said, "The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, advised that slaves should be well-treated. He said, 'Feed them from what you eat and clothe them from what you wear. Do not punish what Allah has created.' " Source: Al-Adab al-Mufrad Al-Bukhari , Nr. 188. Not one of you should [ when introducing someone ] say ‘This is my slave’ , ‘This is my concubine’. He should call them ‘my daughter’ or ‘my son’ or ‘my brother’. Source: Ibn Hanbal, Musnad, 2 ,4 http://www.answering...male_slaves.htm So there is permission to have sex with a female 'slave'. If she says no and you rape her, good luck answering to God almighty. War happens and often these women have lost their husbands. God allows one to take them in i.e the nature of how society was then. But he does not allow ANYONE to rape them. He loves those who free or financially assist them.
  7. Please accept my apology on behalf of a lot of the posters here who have given the name of Islam a bad name. You have been accused of a lot of things but rather intolerant Muslims. I frequently have discussions with atheists, and i know your intention is not to convert anyone. The majority of the time you have a proposal X, and you want to debate that proposal, which is completely natural. It seems so odd that my fellow Muslims seem so insecure in their beliefs to even be questioned. In our school of thought, the direct descendent of the prophet Muhammed, Imam Jaffer as Sadiq frequently had discussions and debates with atheists, agnostics, and opened up large universities in Arabia. Now on to your original question: You make a good point. If the almighty God responsible for the universe decides to somehow communicate with us, and perfect our morality (if you believe objective morality exists), then surely he may want to have mentioned something a fallible human being like you or i could have posted in a short manner of time, correct? The issue is, God has. I will prove it verse by verse. However, before i do that i need to address your last point : "your God". Muslims do not have any kind of independent God. We assert that this universe has an absolute non-physical reality, with the power to create the universe. Thus, any kind of physical attempt at a God has no basis, be it a philosophical one or a rational one. We believe and join hands with ANY religion which believes in this absolute non-physical reality, i.e the Jews and Christians. We call God differently, i.e. his name in Arabic = Allah. Christian Arabs call him Allah. So this isn't a separate God made, but rather a philosophical deduction, something I can go into later. Now on to your OP: “Do not kill no matter what” “Positive reinforcement is more effective than punishment in reforming people who have done something wrong” “No fighting, no wars, only healthy arguments and discussions” “No violence. Violence is for losers and the illiterate and ignorant people.” What the Quran says: “whoever kills an innocent soul, who has not taken a life or brought destruction to society, is as if has killed the entire humanity; and whoever saves an innocent soul is as if he has saved the entire humanity.” (Al-Ma'idah 5: 32). Killing and murder are things we naturally as human beings do not want. But sometimes you are required to defend your life, and in that instance , the opposition may not negotiate and violently attack you and your people. Thus it is a flawed idea that one should not kill. For self defence it is vital. In society, there are laws and rules that apply. If you have murderers in society, Islam allows them after a fair trail to be put to death , quickly using very quick means. This deters other murderers, is more feasible than putting someone in jail for their life (escape , cost to the tax payer, them coming out and re-offending). Islam however, does allow someone to give blood money or compensate the relatives. This is something you could look into. Positive reinforcement is not enough. No society would work on that alone. Criminals thrive on the indulgence of societies ‘understanding’. Crime must hold a punishment and consequences, that is how every single country works these days. Clearly, you can see murder in Gods eyes. Killing one precious life, is like killing the entire plethora of humanity. As for War, here is what God says in the Quran: “Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter... But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful... If they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression" (2:190-193). If someone fights you, you have very right to defend yourself. You can fight them , but LIMITS should not be transgressed. If they STOP, you also stop. So this solves the “live and let live” issue. Clearly, war is a last resort. A muslim is not allowed to attack first. In fact, muslims MUST greet each other with the saying ‘peace be upon you’. Forgiveness is littered everywhere in the Quran. We can’t run away from the fact there are men in this world who just want to watch the world burn, who will attack you, and you must defend yourself. Remember, Prophet Muhammed pbuh did not turn to war, he put up a peace treaty with the Makkans. This FORBADE any war. So Islam clearly teaches negotiations. War came when they BROKE the peace treaty and attacked the muslims. “You want signs? Look around yourself. Study nature to see the signs.” “You want miracles? Are you kidding me? Is this universe any less than a miracle?” “Think, ponder and reflect over nature” God has told us this in the Quran. [45:4] Verily in the heavens and the earth are Signs for those who believe. [45:5] And in your own creation and in that of all the creatures which He scatters in the earth are Signs for a people who possess firm faith. [45:6] And in the alternation of night and day, and the provision that Allah sends down from the sky, whereby He quickens the earth after its death, and in the change of the winds, are Signs for a people who try to understand. Part of my fascination of science is that it all really points to an intelligent designer. Everything from the perfect laws in the cosmos holding together atoms and the laws of the universe, to the breathing conscious human being of whose mind and consciousness scientists can not even understand today. However, there are people who will say, so “God exists, but which God do you believe in?”. I introduced by explaining that there is no My God, there is only an absolute non physical reality, devoid of form. Thus, to ensure the prophets pbuh are really prophets, they NEEDED to bring Miracles. The miracle of the prophet PBUH is the Quran, with scientific, linguistic miracles. See: http://www.miraclesofthequran.com You seem to have gone from a stance of “if the Quran was from God, why would it not say such basic things, to “ok, so it does clarify basic things, but so do x scriptures. Thus I point you to the direction of the miracles contained within the Quran. No other religious book has made scientists convert and write bestsellers. Google Dr Maurice Bucaile. The others are riddled with mistakes, contradictions ect. “· Learn to learn from people · Learn to learn from experience · Learn to learn from your mistakes · Learn to learn from history” Throughout the Quran, God often narrates parables or real events that occurred with the past Prophets , or past human beings. From that, we can learn lessons. “All the above commandments? These are just suggestions. I have given you enough intellect and wisdom to make your own choices but remember, you are responsible for your choices as well as for the consequences of your choices. Don't blame me.” Actually, you are not entirely correct in this respect. Many atheists assert that there is no such thing as objectively morality. They assert morality is governed by the need to survive. Thus, we live in a society which gives us a greater chance of survival, and do things that do not disrupt that society. Thus, there is nothing objectively EVIL about murder. i.e there is no objective morality. However, at the same time , muslims assert God exists and ingrained morality into human beings. Thus, there IS something objectively wrong with murder of an innocent, even if it has no effect on survival. Thus, we believe a lot of morality is derived from common sense: “Nay! but the Qur'an is a reminder.” – Holy Quran Allah swt is only telling mankind that it is a reminder. Before the revealing of the Quran, arabs used to bury their daughters alive, and had very low human rights and superstitious beliefs. God almighty sends religion as a means to regulate morality in a society. It’s a little like governments today. Anarchy does not work. Someone might know it’s wrong to steal and may do so anyway. Thus, religion or scripture is an independent authority which helps regulate morality in society, and warns people of the consequence in this life and the next. · Rituals? What do I gain anything from your mindless mechanical rituals anyway ? · Sacrifices? I don't eat meat, thank you. · Worship ? Spare me. I am not a stone idol. · Prophets? Excuse me, I can send down a whole perfectly written book without any prophets. Whether you believe what I send down or not is up to you. Not that I would, though. I gave enough intellect to human beings so they can figure out on their own what to do and what not to do. · Belief in my existence? I don’t care. Your not believing doesn't mean I don't exist. I always did, I still do and I always will regardless of your belief. I did not create you to make you believe in my existence. I am pretty sure I exist. The reason why God has angels is because he wants mankind to learn from a system of order, where society has a divison of labour. Thus, God has angels, or non-physical beings. It simply serves to teach mankind that we too need division of labour. Prophets are needed as role models. We need something that is flesh and bone, and someone we can relate to. Worship is not for God. God tells us he does not need our worship. Rather, the purpose of life is to acknowledge the majesty and existence of the non-physical entity who has created existence itself , and reflect how lucky we are to be created, and the amazing future prospects for those who want good for themselves and others. Thus, worship is basically the above. God has created us ONLY to worship hm. Rituals i.e five daily prayers are to help us have a connection to God. To reflect on what we have done during the day, the good or bad. It is for our own good. Sacrifices i.e slaughtering a sheep really enables the poor to have the meat. There are no other kind of sacrifice in Islam. We sacrifice a sheep to symbolically remember the sacrifice of Ibrahim, and we give the meat to feed the poor. + I will address the rest of your points tomorrow.
  8. Brother, please let me not stop you from giving saluations of peace on the heroes who stood up to the tyrant Yazid, and thus saved islam poltiically from being corrupted, by triggering a wave of revolutions. However, let us contemplate on this: Before kerbala, there was no ziyarat-e-ashura. How did Allah swt grant anyones Dua without them saying this ziyarat ? There are billions of people around the world like you, claim they recited a dua. The difference is they have no clue what ziyarat e- ashura is. They CALL upon God almighty, are sincere in heart. They Ask God to help them to help themselves. Is it fair that an almerciful lord requires someone to recite a zirarat only recited by a small percent of shia's , and dismiss the dua's of all the billions of human beings on this planet? What happens if you recite this 39 times? Allah swt will hear your supplication in any language, in any form, and anywhere you are on this planet. You do not need to do this. There are kids in syria being blown up, kids in palestine too, and kids dying of cancer and death all over the world. When bad things happen, they are a test. No dua will save you from trails. Allah swt tells us this world is a world of trials. Do Dua personally, in your language, asking for your specific need. Dua is a personal connection, and not a chanting of arabic. Ziyrat e ashura is a symbolic giving of peace to the heroes , it is not a dua. It is a ziyarat. If you want success in marrige, sure, ask God alone for help but also do something practical. Improve yourself, read books on marrige, take a lot of time and deliberation on who you marry. Do not recite an unrelated set of arabic verses x ammount of times. And when My slaves ask you (O Muhammad) concerning Me, then (answer them), I am indeed near (to them by My Knowledge). I respond to the invocations of the supplicant when he calls on Me (without any mediator or intercessor). So let them obey Me and believe in Me, so that they may be led aright. S. 2:186 Hilali-Khan Say (O Muhammad): “I invoke only my Lord (Allah Alone), and I associate none as partners along with Him.” S. 72:20 Hilali-Khan “It is We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.” (Surah Qaf, 16) Peace be with you.
  9. What about men who can't get married, need to do a five year degree and need to be financially secure before anyone worthwhile will marry them, or men who emotionally can not cope yet with the prospect of a marrige? Show me the hadith, the sources, the explanation. Marrige is more than sexual needs. It takes commitment. Some of us just arent ready for it but have hormones because we are human beings. What do we do? marry someone just for sex? Or perhaps commit masturbation and remove sexual thoughts for a period of time and get on with our lives?
  10. By deist i mean my belief in Allah swt or God in engish comes from the emperical idea of a non-physical entity. Then i realised Islam is indeed the right religion, but has rifts and confusions inside it. I.E SUNNI AND SHIA and salafi. Thus, i am a muslim, believe in the Quran, and i lean towards shia Islam but do not do tatbir, ask the Imams for help, believe in some obscure hadiths ect. + Look at the arguments, not the arguer. You are commiting an adhomiem fallacy in attacking me and not my arguments. You can use the Dua's the Imams wrote or anyone wrote. The best Dua is the one you say, in your language, that is sincere, and from your own heart. God would not alienate 6billion human beings who did not happen to luckily stumble on the Imams duas, or perhaps were born 1000 years and so did not hear these dua's before they were even written. Dua's are a personal connection to GOD, no need for a wireless, nothing. He is closer to you than your jugular vein. Despite us being sinful by nature, he created us with free will. We just need to be sincere and acknowledge only he, the creator of this universe ultimately is in charge - that's the idea of dua. Doctor , help me get cured. Thanks for curing me. However, ultimately in my heart, Allah swt created the doctor with intelligence, created the laws of physics so i can exist ect. When i do dua, i acknowledge that.
  11. It is though. If x wants to divorce y, x has every right to divorce y. If your husband wants to marry another wife and you will you can not cope with it, he can not do justice with the two of you. The Quran says: "if you can not treat them all justly, than marry ONLY ONE". Don't want your husband to marry another? He doesn't care how you feel? Divorce the guy. Simple. Divorce is not Harram. If a wife does not want to be with her husband, he has every right to divorce her, and vice versa. "And we have made the Quran simple to understand...so are there any who will reflect and receive admonsion?" - Holy Quran Precaution: stay away from men whose culture allows polygamy. Or move to the US where women have rights.
  12. Well, it would be considerate for the Imam of our time to help us out a little in the knowledge department , rather than being in occultation. But Allah swt knows best.
  13. You don't need to mention the imams or prophets in your Dua. Before the Imams were even born, no-one mentiond them, and their Dua was fulfilled. The only person you need to mention is God almighty, the absolute creator of all things. Remember, Allah swt has the most beautiful of names, only invoke him in your Dua. Quranic evidence: The purpose of Mankind, the sole reason behind our creation, is to worship Allah Alone: "And I created not the Jinns and men except that they should worship Me (Alone)." [51: 56] "If you call upon them, they hear not your call, and if (in case) they were to hear, they could not grant it (your request) to you. And on the Day of Resurrection, they will disown your worshipping them" [35: 14] And when My slaves ask you concerning Me, then (say) I am indeed near. I respond to the invocations of the supplicant when he calls on Me. So let them obey Me and believe in Me, so that they may be led aright." [2: 186]. “The most beautiful names belong to Allah (God): so call on Him by them;…” (The Noble Quran 7:180)
  14. Let me inject some common sense into this debate. If you want to divorce your partner, you have every right to divorce them, even without a reason. If you do not want your husband marrying more than one woman, tell them that , and if they even try, divorce them. Simple. Allah swt says in the Quran, that if you can not do justice between more than one wife, marry only ONE. If a wife does not want you to, you are not doing justice, it would be against the command of God to marry more than one. Why are we over complicating this.
  15. Monotheism is the only kind of theism an atheist will debate with you - i would know. If you tell an atheist God can be two, physical, or numerical, they will rip the argument to absolute shreds. The only explanation of the universe is an on-physical reality with the power to create this physical reality. This is my conclusion, derived from the fact i do not believe a physical reality can exist eternally due to the infinite regress paradox. Monotheism is common sense. You have deists who believe in this 'absolute' creator with no religion. God would not require mankind to accept a concept that is difficult to understand. Rather, it would be simple, logical, and staring right at them.
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