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In the Name of God بسم الله


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    3rd planet from the Sun
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    the Sunni Sufi Path of Love
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warisshah2012's Achievements

  1. Obviously full of generalisations but from an existential POV i hope you'll forgive my previous example as it is just to try to make a point.
  2. Seriously, why can't we Muslims discuss anything without it descending into a pissing contest between sects?! Thanks to the others who tried to stay on topic. I think it is my own fault for not framing the question correctly. Muslims like to brag about our golden age of Islam when we ruled the world etc. and were leaders in science etc and superpowers were Muslim states but those are all worldly things so why is it when we are no longer ahead in worldly things we suddenly change the goalpost and say, 'ah but you see our societies are spiritually and morally better! look at these people just engaged in the dunya! Then some even add, 'they asked for everything in the duniya and Allah granted it to them! We have the Akhirah!' (latter is true but not relevant to my point. Where was this argument of prefering akhirah when 5 minutes before you were bragging about being leaders in the duniya? maybe i can pose my question better with an example: X is a Muslim girl. Y is a non Muslim girl. Both in high school in say a Western European (Germany, France, UK etc.) country where age of consent is 16, alcohol is allowed at 16 for wine, 18 for hard liquors, society is generally post-religious especially for her peer group. X might want to experience all these things but she can't because she believes they are haram so she forgoes them but always wonders what it would be like. Y experiences them for herself but finds maybe she doesn't like some of them so stops doing them. She's come to the same conclusion as X but through her own intellect and experiences. Ergo her life is more fulfilling. X believes in an afterlife. Y doesn't. Until they both die none of them can know for certain if it exists or not. It is a belief system only. Yet for X it has a concrete effect on what she can experience in this life while she is alive. Say later on at Uni, X also decides to try something she earlier didn't do out of religious reasons or parental pressure or both (likely); let's say she allows herself to try some premarital sexual activity (say oral sex only) and really likes it but she has to constantly fight with the religious guilt of why she did that. She is in a constant mental struggle with between her desires and the laws of her religion. This leads to a double life or cognitive dissonance. She loves reading but is told by her shaikh/marja/parents/friends/local mullah that she shouldn't read this and this and this books because they are written by kuffaar/deviant sect/atheists/satan and it will effect her imaan if she does as she might like the arguments in them! Y can read whatever she wants. She decides one day to read what her friend X is reading. It's the Koran. She likes it and starts to read about Islam more. X has read a book on Islamic history and found a lot of stuff she doesn't like but is too scared to ask anyone as she will be called a mulhid and a spawn of satan with her freethinking! X spent her whole life being told what to do and even think. Y spent her whole life doing what she wanted to do or think. They both die on the same day, X surrounded by her family, Y alone in a nursing home. Allah knows who will go to heaven and hell. Who has a life with more experiences and hence a more fulfilling life?
  3. Excuse me but this reply suggest you were a Muslim /Believer before? If so can I ask why you became an atheist?
  4. If we ignore the idea of an Afterlife for now, do those who don't believe in it or in following any Divine laws (whatever religion) live more fulfilling lives because they have to find out their own rules for themselves by exploring? In other words, were Camus and Sartre correct when they said the life unexamined was not worth living?
  5. Thirdly when the youth look around and see the world they live in they see all the successful countries are non Muslim and secular. Immigration is only from the Muslim world to the West. The media has a role to play too but corruption and poor government/dictatorial leaders in the majority of Muslim countries also plays a role. All these play some role too.
  6. Sadly I can see this trend only continuing in future. We will end up with most people being cultural Muslims just as you’ve got most Jews in America who don’t actually believe in God but still identify culturally as Jews. Is there a solution? I can see most people being fully assimilated within one more generation.
  7. This is, imho, the single most important issue of our age especially for those of us living in Europe or North America. In the age of instant communication and social media where any one can make their views known, the traditional approach of the ulama can no longer satisfy curious young minds as quoting scripture just won’t convince as it’s all appeal to authority, a logical fallacy. What the root cause is I don’t know but it could be that the idea of individual freedom is very appealing and all religions place certain restrictions on people which those who’ve grown up in the West aren’t willing to accept. Secondly, they see corruption in religious leaders and hypocrisy.
  8. Thanks for everyone who replied. I agree with the brother or sister who said it is primarily the parents' role to instil Islamic ethics into children and not the schools. I would hope that such an upbringing would result in such problems nor arising but the reality is that these issues are realities in Muslim communities. Some people suggested marriage but what if they say "Dad, I'm not ready to get married yet!" or "I'm too young!" If you push it the danger is they will leave the house which then causes additional issues. In many ways I tend to agree with the person who said he didn't emigrate to the West for this reason. Sometimes I wish my parents had not migrated either. Anyway that's too late now so we will have to deal with it. To the brother who said is it ok to commit a haram to protect yourself from another haram? I would say that some haram are worse than other haram so a lesser haram is preferable to a greater haram. I could turn the question around and ask what would you prefer for your child: to be sinful Muslim who commits zina or for him/her to become an apostate? The former can still get the forgiveness of Allah, the latter not. Thanks to everyone again for engaging.
  9. I'm not against Islamic schools from K1-K12 in theory but I've yet to see one that produces well rounded individuals who can live and thrive in the modern world. I don't know about the USA but in the UK the Islamic schools produce people with the mentality of the Taliban who don't want to interact with the world around them -- not all but mostly. It's also not a practical solution at the moment. There are 2 million Muslims in the UK! If even a quarter of that are school going age how many schools can we build?! The point about zina has been totally misunderstood: what's worse: doing zina or leaving Islam altogether? At least if you give them freedom they're more likely to stay in Islam even if nominally.
  10. AoA, I'm a brother not a sister! I would not be happy if they engaged in zina and I wouldn't want it happening in my house ('no, he can't sleep over!) but its more just a case of accepting the inevitable and so adopting a 'out of sight, out of mind' attitude. The protection quip was so they at least don't have to deal with the added issue of teen pregnancies and STDs. I am not Shia so temporary marriage isn't a solution either [even if I was I don't think it is a realistic one.] Zina is haram. Period. That's not the point -- the point is people do it knowing it is -- they don't see it as a big deal and the bigger issue is that if you try to stop them it can lead to the bigger problem of them leaving Islam. It sounds far fetched but it's not. A lot of 3rd gen Muslims leave for exactly these kind of practical reasons and not for philosophical reasons! 'I want my freedom' is their argument in a nutshell which all religions curtail to some degree. So I think its better to choose the lesser 'evil' of zina compared to apostasy.
  11. People are talking about raising them with good Islamic morals but that doesn't seem to stop them does it?! It just seems to lead to one life at home and another outside in college/high school etc or amongst their peers. I also know that desi Muslims have double standards when it comes to sons and daughters. I would try to avoid that. I am assuming the majority of parents try to raise their kids with good values but that doesn't seem to have led to a different outcome than the one we observe. I heard a recent statistic, I think from a Yasir Qadhi talk (I'm not a big fan of his but just saying) that 43% of Muslims brought up in the USA have now said in a survey that they have no religion. THat's a crazy statistic...and the trend seems to be going one way only! Realistically, 99.9% of us are never going to leave and 'go back' let alone our following generations and hence my original question was a direct extrapolation of this trend....(often parental strictures on just this issue leads them to leave Islam)
  12. I don't think referring to people as 'devil worshipping animals' is helpful in any way btw and I guess the last poster was just joking. My question came to me when I thought what would I actually do if my son/daughter told me they had a bf/gf or vice-versa and the honest answer is probably nothing other than talk about it with them and tell them to use protection.
  13. THanks for the replies. I do not have a son or daughter at the age where they are yet interested in sex but the reality is that dating (I use the term in the way it is used in the USA or Europe amongst the main non-Muslim population, especially in Europe which doesn't have a large fundamentalist Christian right wing like the USA does) is normal nowadays and Muslim kids are dating as much as non-Muslims and having pre-marital sex (most of them hiding it from their parents of course). I am a high school teacher and I see Muslims dating as much as non-Muslims. I'm a Muslim myself and I know in Shariah it is haram but the reality is, having lived my whole life in Europe, my attitude towards premarital sex has also changed. I don't think a parent can actually stop a teenager/young adult (say 16 - the age of consent in most of Europe) from having sex in the society in which we live. The 'old solutions' like getting them married from 'back home' or, God forbid, using threats or physical violence don't work. ! Wouldn't it be easier to just accept that the cost of our parents or grandparents moving to the West was that 3 generations down the line our chlidren/grandchildren are more or less assimilated and that the best and most logical thing to do is to accept it and try to just guide them within that paradigm. Just tell them to try and date Muslims as much as possible with a view to getting married? Just some thoughts.
  14. If the Imam has to be hidden then we already have the Prophet of Islam who is alive in his grave in the Barzakh and present with us always so what need then for the 12th Imam to go into occultation? On the other hand, only the very pious can see the Messenger spiritually or in a dream so the idea of one of his descendants being an infallible visible (hazir) guide makes more sense. Sadly the AK is far from infallible so we're back to square one!
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