Leaderboard

(bismillah) (salam) From now on everytime before you do something ask yourself, "am I doing this for the sake of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì?" i.e. you are going to post a poem on shiachat, are you doing it for the sake of Allah (swt) or to try and get people praising you? i.e. you are going to do a mustahab prayer, are you doing it for the sake of Allah (swt) or for the reward? Now I'm not saying its bad to do a mustahab prayer for reward, infact its good. But we should try and strive to do actions purely for the sake of Allah (swt) because we want to please him and because he is worthy of the worship etc.. i.e. After praying ask Allah (swt) to gift the reward of that prayer to Imam al-Mahdi (atfs), this will slowly help you to not care about the reward of the prayer and instead you will see that you are doing the mustahab prayer because Allah (swt) is worthy of it. Also try and avoid all acts that displease Allah (swt) and try to avoid the acts that don't please him but don't displease him. We should all strive to be pleasing Allah (swt) at all times, after all what more could the creation want than for their creator to be pleased with them? I don't claim to do what I wrote in this thread, may Allah (swt) guide us all to do actions purely for his sake and because he is worthy of them. (wasalam)

I'm also Iranian :)

(salam) I am Iranian ! :D (wasalam)

Oh yeah, because it's so brave to shoot 9 children on a school bus. Or to storm an elementary school and take 100 children hostage. Or to attack a bus and shoot 13 children. Yeah, that's real resistance all right. All you stupid pathetic pieces of **** can do is blow up 8 year olds, and then you want to go around bragging about how tough you are for killing children? You think that's "fighting effectiveness"? You think that's "resistance"? And you think killing elementary school kids -- because that's all you can do, because every single time you've fought the enemy in a war, you've FAILED -- means you can compare yourselves to HezzbAllah, a group that defeats heavily armed enemy soldiers in the field of battle? You're one sick puppy, you know that? The more I hear from vicious, hateful Palestinian losers like you, the less I care when I hear about a few of your fighters getting killed in an enemy airstrike. Hezb0llah would not lower itself to using the tactics that you brag about. And people like you aren't the "brothers" of any self-respecting Shia, you Saddam-loving lowlife. People like you are a waste of oxygen. You have no honor.

Here is what Wikipedia says

Thoughts: There are many arrogant people in the world (and on this website). I would like to remind them of Imam Ali's (as) saying: "Oh man, you come from a drop of semen and you leave as a piece of dust. You don't know when you came and you don't know when you're leaving. Yet you go around thinking you know everything."

The recent movie "Inside Job" (Matt Damon narrating) about the international banking crisis comes to a number of interesting conclusions. One of them is how comprehensively the economics profession has been "bought" by international financial institutions. Basically you have academic economists writing about the benefits of deregulation, for example, and they then go on to the payroll of one of the large banks. The critical oversight that economists should have been providing was neutered by the funding they received. And these are ivy league institutions. So anyone who thinks that western academia is some sort of irreproachable bastion of integrity is a little bit naive. All these "Islamic scholars", who is funding their departments? What's the agenda? Are we really so stupid as to believe that their new found interest in Shi'ism is out of academic curiousity? More likely it is some mischievous desire to influence what is happening in the middle east, for example finding out and bigging up dodgy mullahs in Iran who can be used to undermine the IRI.

Salam U Alaykum, So I have been cooking alot of indian dishes latley. So far I have cooked, tandoori chicken, samosas and mango chutney. Today I made Butter Chicken and Naan. So I thought I would share the recepies and the pictures with you guys. Butter Chicken: This dish is a bit rich, so you dont want to eat it too often. Basicaly you will need: Heavy whiping cream Onions cooking oil (your choice) Chicken (skinless/boneless cut in strips or chunks) garlic-ginger paste (or fresh garlic, fresh ginger and lemon juice) tomato 1 stick of butter (i perfer sweetend) cumin poweder fenugreek powder red food coloring Nuts (optional, cashew) curiander seeds/powder chilee powder salt sugar and what ever spices you like I personaly like to make my own fresh garlic/ginger paste. Take a fresh ginger root, peel it and chop it up and then do the same with about 1-2 peices of garlic. Chop it very well (I use a chopper/dicer to do the job) then after that put it with some lemon juice (not too much) in a blender, and you should have a puree/paste. Next you want to flavour the chicken peices. Mix the chicken with some of the garlic-ginger paste some red chilee powder some salt and some coriander powder. mix it well and let it marinate for about a little bit. Then while your waiting for that, chop your onions and tomatos. You can use as much as you like depending on your tastes. I used about 4 small size tomatos. I also used 1/2 of a large red onion. I perfer red onion because the taste isnt as strong as white or brown onions and it has a more sweet taste to it which goes better with this dish. It doesnt matter how big or small of chunks you cut them in to, because the whole mixture will be blended to a puree later. Just make sure you cut them in to chunks so that they can be cooked easily before they are blended. Now you want to heat up a skillet and put some oil in it. You can use what ever oil you like depending on your taste. I think that olive or grape-seed oil goes well with the tomatos and onions, so that is what I use. Once the pan has heated up with the oil, put the marinated chicken peices in it and let it simmer for a while. You do not want the chicken to cook all the way, your goal is to capture the juices that come off of the chicken. Once it simmers for a bit take the chicken out and leave all the juices and spices inside the pan that came off of the chicken. Leave the chicken off to the side untill later. Now you want to put your onion in to the pan. Also put in some ginger-garlic paste. You want to put some water in to the mixture so that the spices that are stuck to the bottom of the pan from the chicken come off and mix in to your mixture. Let the cook for a while untill your onions start to get a bit soft. Then you want to add in your tomatos and also some chilee powder as well as what ever spices you like. You can also add other chopped peppers if you like. Now let that cook for a while, put the top on and really let it cook slowly for a good 15-20 minutes so that the tomatos and the onions cook very well. Once the mixture has cooked really well, it should be very thick, almost like a paste. take it and put it in a blender. DO NOT blend it right away. Since the mixture is very hot if you blend it right away it will make steam and it will burn you. Let it cool down for a few minutes and then blend it. Cant have butter chicken with out the butter lol. So here comes the butter, melt 1 stick of butter in a pan, I perfer sweetend butter. Once you do that, pour in the blended mixture its going to be very thick. Your going to want to keep pouring in water untill it gets to be a silky/smooth mixture, because once you add the heavy creme it will become some what thick, so you want it as smooth as possible before hand. Keep adding water as neccisary. Also add some salt and a small amount of sugar. Also take this time to add in what ever spices you like. I personaly just enjoy adding the basics, garlic, black pepper, white pepper, salt etc. Once you keep adding water and mixing your mixture will turn a very nice buttery color and will be very smooth. Then your going to want to add in the heavy cream, I used an 8 ounce package for my mixture. Mix it in and your sauce is pretty much finished. The sauce should be smooth, yet a little bit thick. It tastes very good, its a very rich mixture. Now I know what your thinking this doesnt look like the sauce they serve at the resturants, thats because you havnt added in the food coloring. But before you do that put in the chicken and let it cook really well till its done. Now your sauce is done, but you can add in some food coloring to give it the authentic look :) This is a bit more red than the way most people make it, but I personaly think it looks cool lol. You can also add nuts to this dish, cashews go great with it. I personaly ran out of money when I was out shopping for my ingrediants so I left cashews out. Now the Naan. This is pretty simple the ingredents are: Yeast Flour Warm Water Salt Sugar 1 egg Milk Vegitable oil Pour the warm water in to a bowl and then put some yeast in it, about 1-1/2 teaspoons should do it. Then put a bit of milk in it, some salt and some sugar. The milk will make the bread softer. I also put an egg in it because that will make the bread even softer. Take this mixture and put it in to a bowl of about 3 cups or so of flower and then mix it. It should be VERY sticky. This is normal for this particular mixture. Youll notice that it is hard to roll the bread around because its sticky, finaly pour some vegitable oil on it to make it a bit easier to work with. After it is all mixed up let the dough sit for about 1-2 hours. Even though mine is uncovered in the picture you should cover your bread with a large plate or a towel. After you let the dough sit, it should have doubled in size or so. Then take the dough and roll it in to small mounds. This is a bit difficult due to how sticky the dough is, your going to need to use flower to help with that. Cover this with a cloth or some thing, and let it sit for a bit (15-20 minutes). Then after that heat your oven up to around 450-500 degrees. Take a non stick baking pan, or just spray non stick cooking spray on a pan and spread one of the peices of bread across it. Stick it in the oven, it should only take about 4-5 minutes to cook the bread, fliping it over once. This is the what it looks like when it is cooked: Because of the egg and the milk in the mixture the bread comes out extra soft and it tastes MUCH better than normal naan. I also like to put some butter on top of my Naan and sprinkle differnt things on top. You can use what ever you like. Also you can get creative and put garlic or onion or what ever you like in to the dough right before you put it in the oven. And Finaly all of it put together with some rice on a plate. It was DELICIOUS. :)

Shia brothers are always happy to cite the hadith of the twelve Caliphs and different explanations are given by Sunnis describing their difference of opinion regarding Shia usage of this hadith. I have an objection pertinent to Shia usage of this hadith and would like Shia brothers to provide their opinion about this. I think that Shia brothers are not eligible to use this hadith for their purpose in the first place because they cannot prove the very existence of their 12th Imam. No doubt the 12th Imam is a character revered and respected in Shia religion but his existence is not just questionable but purely apocryphal. Unless Shia brothers prove the physical existance of the 12th Imam, how can they consider them in a position to use this hadith to prove the veracity of their doctrine. A prophesy is a prophesy untill the things foretold in it happen physically in real world and not just in a person's or a group's imagination which is unfortunately the case with the 12th Imam. He is not a historical figure at all. In order to get benefit of this hadith, Shia brothers are requested to prove the existance of the 12 persons who they consider to be the Caliphs this hadith is referring to.

Salams All, Please join me in welcoming brother Simba as our new SC Mod. For those of us who don't know him that well, he is one of the oldies; well respected, appreciated for his years of contribution and trusted by the SC team. He has been a Chat Mod for quite a long time now and we all thought, it is time that the brother is burdened with more responsibilities. We can only thank him for accepting our invitation and sparing some time for the forum, considering the fact that he already has plenty of responsibilities in real life. Thankyou br Simba and Welcome aboard ! Regards I

Highly highly recommend the cartoon series Avatar the Last Airbender. (NOT the live action film by Shamalyan. The cartoon) Just finished watching the series; have been watching one episode at a time with my kids this summer. Beautiful animation, great storytelling, and lots of parallels between the spiritual concepts in the series and Islamic Messianism / the role of al-Mahdi (as). One of those rare cartoons that can equally entertain and move adults and kids alike.

long live Sodamn....wait.. he is no more :(

I disagree. The Wahhabis actually make things worse, because as we can see so often on this forum, anyone that goes against ghulat beliefs, or even just questions them, is branded a Wahhabi. There is much more chance people would actually listen to reasonable arguments if they weren't always doubting the motives of the other person, and thinking is secretly working for the enemy. The same goes for bidah of course. Basically, if anyone speaks of bidah, ghuluw, or shirk, then alarm bells go off in the mind of the average Shia, and he starts thinking you must be a Wahhabi.

No doubt. As Saduq said: Exactly. The Wahhabi you already know to be a dog by his loud bark, so no confusing him as being part of the firqat an-najiya. But the ghali pretends to be one of us, deceiving both those on the inside into possibly believing their heresies and those on the outside by confounding their lies with our true doctrines.

Don't you know that anyone who doesn't believe that the Imams (as) are all-hearing, all-seeing, and all-knowing is a Wahhabi? Seriously though, I think we do need to go all out on them, and it is long overdue. In fact, we need to go after them a lot more than with the Wahhabis, because the ghulats are a cancer within our madhhab. There is a lot more we can do about these people than we can about Wahhabis. Who knows about many people have been put off Shi'ism, either permanently or temporarily, by these types? The problem is though, I suspect there won't be much agreement on what ghuluw is, and then we have to get past all these word games about how everything is ok as long as you don't make anyone equal or independent to Allah, or unless specifically condemned by an Imam. So for example, according to some people, it would be ghuluw to say Allah delegated the ruling of creation to the Masumeen (as), but it's ok to say He delegated the ruling of the universe. On the other hand, if we can cut down on the blatant and shameless ghulats, maybe that would be a good start.

Who said they are burning in hell? Everyone will be judged fairly. Rest assured that Believers (Muslims), Jews, Christians and Sabians - whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and performs good deeds - will be rewarded by their Lord; they will have nothing to fear or to regret. [Qur'an 2:62] Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve. [Qur'an 5:69] What makes you think the Saudi king knows anything about the Qur'an? Of course the more knowledge you can gain about the Qur'an the better, but the main thing is to live in accordance with the Qur'an. And once again, everyone will be judge fairly according to their knowledge and understanding. Not necessarily. If we are going to be judged according to our knowledge and understanding, then those born into Muslim families will have less excuses about not knowing things. Even if in fact so few people are going to be saved, which I'm not sure is the case, then it doesn't change the fact that it is actually not that hard to go to heaven. Our religion is a lot easier than some people make out. Don't worry about everyone else, focus on obeying the commands of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, and you will have nothing to fear. By the way, I don't think most people will burn in hell forever. There are ahadith that say whoever has an atom of faith in his heart will go to Paradise eventually. It's of course very good to have fear of the afterlife, but you shouldn't let it consume you to a degree where you are getting depressed. Think about the positive things in the religion as well. Some things are haraam, others aren't. But remember that everything is halal until proven haraam, so ask for proof from the Qur'an and ahadith if someone claims something i haraam. On the other hand, some things might no be haraam in themselves, but may be dangerous for you. TV might very well fall into that category, but it is not haraam. If you have a specific question on what is haraam or halal, then ask on the site. I'm sure you'll find the answers you are looking for, along with proof. I'm a bit confused. Pakistan is not in the middle east. But yes, many Muslims from different countries seem to think their nationality is better than everyone elses. From personal exerience, Pakistanis tend to be particularly unwelcoming of other races and cultures, but that might just be due to my greater exposure to them compared to other groups. What ethnic background are you from, if you don't mind me asking? This is a very deep question, but on a simple level you can just see life as a test for us set by Allah (swt) for entrance into Paradise. Those who fail will have to go to Hell for a while, or in some cases forever. If there is a reward, then there must be a punishment.

(salam) (bismillah) I don't know about the whole "thinking it is part of the religion". I took it more like anything added or subtracted from the religion. That hadeeth is VERY Authentic. (salam)

I think Pakistan may be a more secular country. And in such theyre less inclined to be gung ho religion. A lot of the whole Syria and Bahrain events are promoted by other countries governments more as well for political motives. Some countries news and media and overall way of thinking constantly refers back to pro shia sentiment. But not so much Pakistan. Which i dont think is a bad thing. And Pakistan has its own issues to deal with, theres really no reason Pakistani shias should be worrying about countries that they hold little relation to.

(bismillah) (salam) In my opinion this is because it isn't actively pushed from the pulpits/media. The oppression of Bahraini Shiites for example isn't something new, but the average Shiite Muslim didn't even speak about it until early this year when things got so bad that it finally started getting a mention. There are a few respected brothers and sisters who have always pointed out acts of oppression around the world, but the rest of us are like sheep who only jump onto the bandwagon once it gains momentum from pulpits, prominent scholars, Islamic organizations or Shiite media (which is still relatively young).

Brother Imam (as) advised it this way to a situation where someone made a book of so called contradictions of teh qu'ran it went like this "is it possible that the author of a book can mean something different then interpreters?" what you may see as a contradiction may not be at all. take disbelief as an example how do we know that there is not certain levels of disbelief and belief? a poof i can put forward for this is how the jews believe in Allah's existence but disbelieve in the prophet hood of Jesus (as) and Muhammad (pbuh) some would fall into more disbelief as they reject things directly on and others would fall into ignorance by following those who rejected, they would however be both believing to a certain level and disbelieving to a certain level.

There are 5 prayers per day. What are your school timings. I am asking this because Zohar and Asr prayers are performed together (one after the other) and the timings are b/w mid day (1 pm or so) till Sun set (6 pm or so). So if you get off at say 3 pm you still have 3 hours or so to pray at home. You can buy a compass to help you find direction. You can pray Zohar and Asr in 10 min. How much time does it take you to offer both prayers. How to perform Wudhu A Muslim is required to perform ablution (Wudhu) before Salat. Read more to learn how to perform Wudhu. How to perform Salat How to perform Salat - step by step

the way people have missused ishtikara,flipping a coin would be much better.

Shia_Debater: Cheeriest guy on SC. Makes you happy every time with his Iranian salaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaams. This guy has more hassanat than anyone on SC. Kamran Syed: Best akhlaaq ever on the forums, especially with sunni-shia issues. Always advocating tolerance. Fiasco & Kadhim: Witty, sarcastic posts that are legendary. Al-Mufeed: Despite his muqassir ways in the chatroom, he's a very knowledgeable guy mashaa'Allah and always has an answer to your questions. Habib e Najjaar: :wub: What can I say? Beautiful posts, beautiful poetry and always has something positive to say. Legio Invicta & Replicant: Their constant wahhabi bashing and bidah full posts are worth the read. Ya Aba 3abdillah: Best admin. We need more like him. baradar_jackson: always enjoy his anti-akhbari rants and deep attachment (dare I say obsession) with the Lebanese. and deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeebo: my cousin in disguise :P witty one he is, but always says it how it should be. more to come, sorry if I've missed anybody out!

(salam) Sometimes its almost funny how our acceptability level is increasing exponentially. First of all a haram thing like music and on top of that using ayats and holy people's name and subhanAllah that's termed minor. At least if we cant stop them from producing such stuff, we can show our displeasure at it rather than thinking of it as slander. Lol see now thats what i called unprovoked patriotic attack... :rolleyes:. How does saying bad to one thing make us pro another. You are more than welcome to open a thread on any such issue, i'd be the first to agree!

This is obviously a draw back of sharing your husband with another woman. Also, remember that even the Holy Prophet was married to women who were not very nice to other wives. The best is to have a schedule and stick to it. And all partners need to agree to it otherwise it will not work out.

(salam) Why can’t someone who knows about real Shia Islam works in western academia? Everyone complains about western Shii scholarship but what are we doing to change it? Complaining doesn’t change anything. You need to be able present, work and publish here to be able to make some impact. I imagine this can be done.

Unless I am mistaken, the word thanb doesn't necessarily mean sin, especially in archaic Arabic. It can mean any action that leads to undesirable consequences. (In the beginning of Surah 48 it has not likely to have been used with 'sin' as its meaning) 47:19} So know that there is no god but Allah, and, ask protection for your fault (thanb) and for the believing men and the believing women; and Allah knows the place of your returning and the place of your abiding. Notice how the verse is asking the prophet to pray for the believers too within that context? Is every believer a sinner?

This is a very nice anecdote: I'll also add these fantastic lectures: So nice to see one of the most learned Shia scholars in the world giving lectures that have been translated.

Don't know where i'm going in life. Very confused.

(salam) I'm surprised that no one answered this. Based on Islamic law and the fatwas of the majority of Marajas, the only parents entitled upon knowing about Mutah are those of the girl if she is a virgin (i.e. if she has not permanently married before, no relevance to sexual virginity whatsoever). Islamically, it is not your right. However, it could be your option to do so.

I've come across Liyakat Takim at another conference and based on your assessment above, I'd guess such events are useful for identifying who is trying to corrupt our religion and how. There's nothing for the siratulmustaqeem to be learned from such events, just the arguments that Satan may use to tempt us off it.

God forbid someone have a conference that provides invitations to people who hold controversial views. This is the 21st century after all.

brother im sorry for my harsh statement but im not lying at alla ino shou jeyine bas khaberne ba3den u want more information ino i can send them by pm bas mesh in public the guy isn't a mendicant and he doesn't even know that im posting here it's my initiative i tried to help him but i couldn't so i posted here it's unreasonable to put his name and adress and phone number in public if somebody really wants to help i will send all information by pm w plz i don't want to wager cz im not playing

I don't know...I am thinking about going on strike. I want to eat in a restaurant.....but it may cause a war.

I feel like the elitist, racist, white supremacist based society and the system it created that we live in today, has had a major influence on your views, OP. You remind me of black Americans who believe white Jesus with blue eyes is their lord and saviour.

Ya Allah, i see this everyday, i just want to smack girls like this, so immature. 5arab 3ardich. This breaks my heart, choosing desires over intellect. Bring her back, fix her up.... her intentions are very bad. Let her know what wrong she has done and ask Allah for forgiveness sincerely! Do not get her married yet, if she does she might mess up the marriage.( that is if a guy will ask for a used up girl) Inshallah 5air and its best to keep this quiet especially within your community, your family's reputation might go down if people know. tawakalna 3ala Allah

^ Maybe you should post a picture up and have the sisters to have a bidding war for you.

I came to this forum by accident, seems pretty neat, I look forward to my time here. I don't know what else to say but if anyone has any questions they can ask me.

JazakAllah Khair everyone for the kind words. I didn't ask kam to make this thread so please don't think it was me telling him to get attention or anything like that .. hes a great friend :wub: And everyone please I urge you don't make dua that My problems get solved, rather make dua that Allah (swt) grants me sabr. I believe that would be better. JazakAllah Khair. May Allah (swt) grant sabr to all those who have problems or solve their problems if it is better for it to be solved in their situation. (the reason I quoted everyone was so that you all get notifications and see this post)

Thought: "three can keep a secret as long as two are dead"- thomas jefferson

shut up and make your wife a sammich before she beats you again

i would throw him off a cliff, shoot him full of holes with a machine gun as he fell, throw a grenade on him when he landed, set his remains on fire, put them out by urinating on them. feed whatever was left to dogs. feed the dogs to pigs. throw the pigs into the ocean and feed the pigs to sharks. sell the sharks to the chinese, so he eventually becomes fertiliser in paddy fields after passing through chinese intestines.

Thought: " now you can say it aint our fault if we never heard it, but if we know better than we probably deserve it. Jihad is not holy war wheres that in worship? Murdering is not in islam and you are not observant, you are a muslim, israel dont take my side cuz look how far youve push them" lupe fiasco "words i never said", i actually like hip hop now.. oh yah the last verse " I think that all the silence is worse than all the violence Fear is such a weak emotion thats why I despise it We scared of almost everything, afraid to even tell the truth So scared of what you think of me, I’m scared of even telling you Sometimes I’m like the only person I feel safe to tell it to I’m locked inside a cell in me, I know that there’s a jail in you Consider this your bailing out, so take a breath, inhale a few My screams is finally getting free, my thoughts is finally yelling through"

Thank you sir! I am looking forward to good time with me beloved :wub: It's a desi bride back home. I'd have gotten no less than a gori Audi if it was in UK ;) Perhaps the new lights are too new. You know what I mean. It takes some time before we are familiar with new thing. I remember when the first lights of this generation came out in 2003, most people hated them. Yet, no one wants to go back to pre-2003 lights! The first pic is the new shiny lights. The second is from the previous model. I think the previous ones were rather graceful! Allah buri nazar to bachavay! Main vohti noo kala tikka lana ay :wub:

Thoughts: Home Aloneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee..!!

I cant help the fact that most women are just utterly stupid when it comes to these things. Just shut it and get married to a good man who can take care of you, if you guys ever do mature, you shall thank me later. If you do not want to be mature about this, then I seriously hope you do not raise hell if your husband one day is repulsed by your nose or the few wrinkles you have developed.

It seems that you need to rectify your information. The 12th Imam, according to Shia belief was not raised up by Allah but is still present in the world as his Hujjat. As for Jesus, I don't need to prove his existence. His existence is evident from the fact that it has been described by Allah and his Apostle(s) and for a Muslim the words of Quran and Holy Prophet(s) are in themselves a proof for our faith. On the other hand, the only source that explains the existence of the 12th Imam is a guy called Usman Bin Said and 3 other alleged representatives of the 12th Imam. Can you see a BIG difference between the credibility of the source that is descrbing the existence of Jesus i.e. Quran and Hadith and the source that is describing the existence of the 12th Imam i.e. the 4 alleged representatives. Only because the two stories are somewhat similar in details does not make the story of the 12th Imam to be unquestionably accepted. I hope I will not have to repeat this argument if you people read it using little common sense. As far as Sunni opinion about this hadith is concerned: First of all, Shias should not bother about this as Sunnis are not using this hadith to prove their religion to be true. I have asked Shia brothers to provide a list of 12 historically accepted figures to use this hadith for their benefit as they are using this hadith for over a thousand years as a proof of their faith. Now that I have asked them to provide this list, they seem helpless. Secondly, in my humble opinion, this is a vague hadith. Just like many other hadith of the Prophet(s) the truth of which can only be known to Allah and his Apostle(s). I give you an example. There is a hadith which says that there is a Mujaddid in every century. No one knows for sure who these Mujaddids are. We can only conjecture on this and give our opinion but truth is only known to Allah. Now if a sect comes up with a list of all the Mujaddids in these 14 centuries and claims that this is a list of our Mujaddids, and scoffs at all other sects for not having a list of this kind. What will be your reaction. Of course you will call them heretics. Sunni opinion is that the truth about this hadith can only be known to Allah. Suppose the same question was asked to a Shia brother when the number of Imams(including the 12th in question) had not yet reached the number 12. Suppose this question had been asked in the time of Ali® himself or Hasan® or Baqir® or Jafar®. What would have been the answer of the Shia brother. He would obviously have said that this is known to Allah only as to who these 12 Caliphs are. Same is our opinion now. We can guess and different scholars have but no one can say for sure who are these Caliphs. There is a hadith which says that there will be twelve hypocrites in this Ummah. Now if a Nasibi comes up with the stupid idea that these 12 hypocrites are the twelve Imams. What would be the reaction? See how easy it is to use vague hadith to serve ones purpose. Can a religion whose very basis are founded on vague hadith be a true religion? Brothers whatever you would like to say, please keep in mind my original question and try to answer it.

Err off-topic drift folks ... I'm pretty a conclusion has already been reached in this topic. It's high time we move on and let this topic die...

Experiment went well. Thx again.

Sure, PML-N is another face of the terrorists. Sure, lets not vote for them, or not vote. Most people don't even vote. What was the national turn-out last time? 29%? I don't remember. BUT I do know that even if the turnout is less than 1% they WILL form yet another stupid govt of thugs and post it over our heads. They won't recognize that we're sick and tired of their lies and their sham definition of "democracy" and their oppressive and lethal "freedom". What this country needs is a real party comprised of real, local people to vote for. I've never voted before my entire life but I'm thinking that thats harmful. Maybe everyone should vote for the azad umeedwaars?