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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6962844.ece

Here is a scenario, imagine you are a marja and a question is posed to you which you know will not go down with the public given the answer that Islam prescribes, what do you do? A- Brush it under the carpet and do not fulfil your duty of providing an answer of religious ruling. B- Fulfil your duty and answer the question regardless of the aftermath it may bring C- Give a diplomatic answer which is neither here or there. FYI, Imam Khomeini did not spoon feed it to the them via a death fatwa, people already knew that the book is not something we agree with however given the blasphemy contained within what is the duty of the Jurist in that regard and also in the aspect of apostasy, that is the answer which Imam Khomeini gave.

^ Too bad nobody cares about your opinion nor will it change the ruling. Actually it isn't too bad, its very good. :)

Yes Salman Rushdie(LA) should be killed. Syed Khomeini (ra) said: "I would like to inform all the intrepid Muslims in the world that the author of the book ´The Satanic Verses´, which has been compiled, printed and published in opposition to Islam, the Prophet and the koran, as well as those publishers who were aware of its contents, have been sentenced to death. I call on all zealous Muslims to execute them quickly, wherever they may find them, so that no one will dare to insult the Muslim sanctions. Whoever is killed on this path will be regarded a martyr, God willing." The hadith of Imam also allows it. . . Ñæí åÔÇã Èä ÓÇáã¡ Úä ÚãÇÑ ÇáÓÇÈÇØí ÞÇá: ÓãÚÊ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏÇááå Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã íÞæá: ßá ãÓáã Èíä ãÓáãíä ÅÑÊÏ Úä ÇáÇÓáÇã æÌÍÏ ãÍãÏÇ Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÇáå äÈæÊå æ ßÐÈå ÝÅä Ïãå ãÈÇÍ áßá ãä ÓãÚ Ðáß ãäå¡ æÅãÑÃÊå ÈÇÆäÉ ãäå ÝáÇ ÊÞÑÈå¡ æ íÞÓã ãÇáå Úáì æÑËÊå¡ æÊÚÊÏ ÅãÑÃÊå ÚÏÉ ÇáãÊæÝí ÚäåÇ ÒæÌåÇ¡ æÚáì ÇáÇãÇã Ãä íÞÊáå Åä ÃÊí Èå æáÇ íÓÊÊíÈå w/s

^May Allah bestow you with the ability to use that thing you call a brain, which is probably beginning to decay. Common sense seems to be miles ahead of you.

It has nothing to do with Allah being unjust, you dimwit. We all face tests in life. Having homosexual urges is not a sin, acting upon them is. I'll repeat for the third time, you don't choose what you are attracted to. It's not complicated, 'unknownpreacher'. The reason you are unknown is because you spout nonsense.

Don't make assumptions. Have you ever been homosexual to know that the tendencies 'go away'? If a person is homosexual genetically, there is no reason why it cannot be a test. How do you think sexual orientation comes about? Do people choose who or what they are attracted to? Of course not. It's a combination of genes and environment.

Did it ever occur to you that homosexual urges are a test from Allah? We don't choose what we are attracted to. You aren't making sense.

I didn't mean to imply ownership. I'm not entirely convinced that an Islamic government in a post-colonial model of state inherited from the colonizing powers is exactly a part and parcel of Islam. In fact, I'm not even sure exactly what replacement or changes, if any, Montazeri might have wanted to make in the current system. I probably still would not have agreed to it unless it curtailed the state's power to interfere in religious matters. I am, however, very interested in the way he has been categorically rejected by you and others. It's amazing how easily you are able to write-off opposition. Exactly what mistakes and which instances of arrogance are you referring to?

I have a question for you, Dirac, and any other Iraqis who might be reading this: Obviously you prefer an independent Iraq (everyone wants their country to be independent). But seeing that Iraq is under occupation, that is not possible at the moment. Knowing this, would you be willing to see Iraq to move closer to Iran? Meaning, do the religious and cultural ties between Iran and Iraq factor at all in deciding who you would prefer to have hegemony over Iraq? Do you prefer US hegemony to Iranian hegemony (even if US hegemony will continue to be enforced through military means)? Because it seems to me that we're not too popular in Iraq. There's some Iraqis I've met who look up to us, but many others hate us worse than Israel or the US (which I never particularly understood). Although, the majority of Arabs I know are jaded toward politics and can't discuss it without getting emotional or disgusted. Anyway... hate us or not, we're here to stay.

Continued...... muslima : salam moslim : ws muslima : are you married ? moslim : unfortunately not :dry: muslima : cant we remove our UN ? moslim : :freaks out: :wacko: moslim: :deletes and blocks muslima from MSN/Yahoo/AIM/Facebook: :D molima: :what a jerk!!!!: Don't be so direct.... get help from someone you can trust. Send your proposal/intent through a friend.

^Sententious people such as the guy above get on nerves. They refuse to use reason and aql and just spout nonsense, whilst at all times considering themselves to be pious and look down upon others. I sincerely hope people will not take what he says as truth, because his statements are devoid of intellect.

The High Carbon Consumption Capitalism of the US emphasises the rights of the rich and the elites. Islam, on the other hand, promotes social justice - not surprising therefore that an Islamic solution resonates with poor communities in the US. And I think this is what the global arrogance is ultimately afraid of, the IRI represents a coherent social and economic model that is a serious challenge to the status quo in the West and many developing countries.

He was a great scholar. Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhu rajioon.

Because we speak English now. Why not? So you want everyone to turn up at random times during the weeks and days? What does logic dictate, son? It's not necessarily a masjid. This way we can hold interfaith activities etc. How? Because it's called a centre and it is organised? :huh: Go girl, go!

its very simple, muslima : salam moslim : ws muslima : are you married ? moslim : unfortunately not :dry: muslima : cant we remove our UN ? moslim :

Guys, seriously, I'm probably one of his biggest critics here. But he is gone now, and this is a thread about his death. At least have the courtesy open a new thread if you want to discuss his politics.

On Belief Beware of becoming delimited by a specific knotting and disbelieving in everything else, lest great good escape you. Or rather, knowledge of the situation as it actually is in itself will escape you. Be in yourself a hyle for the forms of all beliefs, for God is wider and more tremendous than that He should be constricted by one knotting rather than another. For He says, "Whithersoever you turn, there is the Face of God" (2:115). He did not mention one place rather than another; and He said that the "face" of God is there, and the face of a thing is its reality. Through that He alerted the hearts of the gnostics, lest they busy themselves with the accidental affairs of the life of this world instead of keeping the like of this in mind. For the servant does not know in which breath he will be taken. He may be taken in the time of heedlessness, and he would not be equal to him who is taken in the time of presence. The Men are they who concur with the belief of every believer in respect of that which has conveyed it to him, taught it, and established it. On the Dy of Visitation the Men will see their Lord with the eye of every belief. He who counsels his own soul should investigate, during his life in this world, all doctrines (maqaala) concerning God. He should learn from whence each possessor of a doctrine affirms the validity of his doctrine. Once its validity has been affirmed for him in its specific mode in which it is correct for him who holds it, then he should support in the case of him who believes in it. He should not deny it or reject it, for he will gather its fruit on the day of Visitation, whatever that belief might be. This is the all-embracing knowledge of God. So turn your attention to what we hvve mentioned and put it into practice! Then you will give the Divinity its due ad you will be one of those who are fair toward their Lord in knowledge of Him. For God is exalted high above entering under delimitation. He cannot be tied down to any one form rather than another. From here you will come to know the all-inclusiveness of felicity for God's creatures, and the all-embracingness of the mercy which embraces everything. -Ibn Arabi Fusus al Hikaam and Futuhaat al Makiyya William Chittick, Sufi Path of Knowledge, pg 355.

The man's burial is not done yet. Please have some respect for Muslim traditions and do as Ayatollah Khamenei and other clerics did...it is time to offer prayers and do not recall deceased wrong doings..Now he is in a better place to be judged rightfully by the best judge.

That's a very narrow approach and conclusion to have reached, no? Have you considered whether Montazeri may have felt the same way? Perhaps he is the one who was betrayed by traitors and his life's work hijacked?

Actually regarding bibi Khadija - She asked a MUTUAL person (who was a close friend/relative of the prophet) to go to the prophet and SUGGEST HIM to propose to her (and that she would be willing to offer support that he required at the time for his mission).

(salam) jaisay halat chal rahay hain us mein tou biryani , sheermal or haleem ki recipee he daingay Peace (salam) Bro , jis tarha yay log noha parhtay hain .. aisa lagta hai MTV ka music chart he chal raha hai.. Tanz kar raha tha .. Peace

Salaams, I'll have to disagree with you at some part of this comment, firstly i have had no personal problems with the youth that come to the Masjid, but do you think it is right to talk about soccor during Muharrum standing outside whn the majalis is on and when the Tabut comes out??? I am pretty sure that its wrong.. Yes there are expectations and rules created by the youth, because we leave it to them.. hen they have no clue what they are talking about, where is the oloder generation? why are they not taking charge?? And that is my point, this is why things need to change servearlyy! Many Thanks for your views, sHiAbOiI ..

(salam) Brothers and their sisters mein MTV top 10 noha ka chart kahan say download keroon ? Peace

You're analogy is near to, but is not the Shi'a view. Most parts of being a Muslim are expressed physically (fasting, praying, performing Hajj, offering sacrifice) but some are kept in the heart (belief in Tawhid, Risalah, Wilayah). While you can detect the performance of the former, you can not know the presence of the latter, since beliefs, unless proclaimed or revealed openly, are between you and your God. A person who prays, fasts, performs Hajj, offers sacrifice, and does other Islamic rites, might be a Muslim, or he might be a hypocrite. His other actions will suggest (usually those in his day to day life, like behaviour and speech with others) which one he really is. But it is upon the fallible Muslims to check and assess the faith of people. A person, who declares he's a Muslim, is a Muslim to the rest of the Ummah, until he apostatizes - even though, his actions may reveal the filthiest character, and point towards hypocrisy only. And hence, no fallible possesses any right to declare any such person a Kafir. The actions of the three Caliphs, were very disrespectful to the family of the Prophet (pbuh). Anybody who disrespects them, disrespects us, but it still is no reason to say they are Kafir, since before departing from this world, they did not express any will to apostatize from Islam. This disrespect to them is often magnified, to the extent that many people start calling them Kafir. But this does not automatically become the majority view. Even if find that the majority people do hold a similar view, I'm sure you understand that majority does not signify truth, nor does minority signify falsehood. They did not declare themselves as non-Muslims, so they will remain Muslims for the world until the Day of Judgement. wa (salam) Basim Ali Jafri

Propogation of links from the fitnah forum Momin online are not allowed on ShiaChat. The forum is well known for its twisting of the Fatwas of the Marjas along with the insults to the institution of Marjiyyah hence please do not advertise their links on this forum. And what you have posted is once again a twist to the actual story done by the fitnah mongers on the Momin Online Forum, who have done nothing but added their own lies as well to the situation to protray an image to attack the Marja in question. Lastly, to the OP you should know that SC has a policy that already banned members coming back under a new id are banned again :) Topic Closed.

Bah. It's rather absurd to be sure, but that's people. Some portion of these "Muslims for Ramadan" or "Muslims for Muharram" will experience something that will jolt them to carry it on throughout the year. The rest of this group will at least be on a better track a few months out of 12. In my book that's at least better than nothing.

I'm not disgracing ppl who're getting Medical education from anywhere around the globe.Don't ya even compare Canada with Medical schools of third world countries.Medicine Hat college of Canada is among the best Medical schools in the world.That was my reply to TheHealer,who has a misapprehension that I'm getting Medical education from US 'coz my own country refused to give me admission.According to him its so difficult to get a Medical degree from any Eastern Medical school so that's why I'm here to earn it.According to him,i was given admission 'coz of my father's wealth so i was telling him that WATS the standard of Medical education in Eastern countries.The thing that matters is the standard of Ur education.That was my point.I wasn't trying to disgrace anyone but he has launched too many personnel attacks so my reply to him was quite just.Who's he to think that the I'm a folk?He's a folk, who's not aware of the advancements in Medical field and yet he claims to be a Doc.Look at the standard of his education.I'm just a Medical student and he's a Doc yet his Knowledge isn't that exemplary. I'm aware of the difference b/e genotype and phenotype and he was confusing these terminologies.That Wat his knowledge is all about. Each and every where you're gonna get these MBBS docs,who've to pass Plab and USMLE to be recognized as a Doc up-here.So they've no right to degrade USA's Medical education 'coz they're copying from our medical books.They don't even have their own authors.This is Wat standard is all about and it does need a lot of effort to get a Medical degree up-here.You've to search hundred of libraries for a single book.This is the real standard.A competitive one.So i was trying to get him realize that try to count Ur words before uttering any non-sense.He was exaggerating me so i did that.Thanks for wishing me luck.

I am not throwing it out. I mean its still gonna be somewhere in my dusty copy of Al Kafi if I want to read it. I don't pretend it doesn't exist, I just don't see how the hell that relates to the topic at hand. I read the haddith and I recognize that If Imam Ali were here he would behead 1/2 of San Fransisco and burn their bodies as some form of creepy postmortem symbolism. What now? Should I slap my gay peer on the hand and tell him he has been a naughty boy? If execution is the punishment for being gay (something that people can't choose to be but can choose to act on) what am I supposed to do with that critical bit of information? You stress that its important to note we do not have the government or judiciary system necessary to carry out such punishments.. so what exactly is your point? Just a stance against them or loud cries denouncing and rejecting them? How can you not see that this will only be counter productive and will not be beneficial to anyone? These are human beings we are talking about, not some random gay man in a haddith (whose crimes may have been known to Imam Ali) who has suddenly become the poster child for how we should deal with homosexuality through the ages. I only get personal because the problem with most of what you say is consistent.. you don't know how to go from haddith to present day. You just cant seem to make that jump and that is unfortunate for you and entertaining for me. The problem is when people take you seriously and Muslims look like another group of crazies trying to force their religion into other people's bedrooms in countries where they have no business doing that.

I was expecting this.Being pious for just a month,it doesn't make any sense to me.Ya ought to be pious through-out the year.Try to have an inside look on the message of Karbala.This isn't the message of Karbala to indulge yourself in satanic activities through-out the year.How do ya justify that? Can ya please elaborate it?

ÔÇÀ äÌÝ Úáی ÀیŸ ÔÇÀ ˜ÑÈáÇ ÍÓیä ÍÇÌÊ ÑæÇ Úáی ÀیŸ ϘªæŸ ˜ی ÏæÇ ÍÓیä ÇÀæ ÇÑ ÞÑیÈ äÀ Âۓ ˜æÆ ãáÇá ÎæÔ Àæ ˜ÿ یÇ Úáی ˜Àæ¡ Ñæ Ñæ ˜ÿ یÇ ÍÓیä

(salam) Ap Ya Book Zaroor Parhiya Ga,InshAllah Boht Kuch Jan'nay Ko Milay Ga,, . . (wasalam)

Stop being delusional. There is a silent majority behind Imam Khamenei (HA). It will take more than a few youths from Northern Tehran to bring about the so called regime change.

My view of the arabian peninsula is not negatively shaped because of my love for Iran. I'll get back to this at the end of this post. Visiting a country (or living there) gives you an idea of how the current state of the 'street' is... how the people live, etc. I am not talking about any of this, if you read again what I wrote above. Now I am no expert of the Saudi economy, and neither am I the expert of any other country's economy. However, CNN mentions: "Last year it's estimated to have exported $165 billion worth of oil, around 90 percent of the Kingdom's total revenue." Other sites mention this too. Wikipedia also mentions that 10 percent of the GDP comes from non-oil export. Now even the above would not matter, IF they had something other than oil (regardless of wether they make money from it or not) that they are good at. Now with this I don't mean milking camels. I mean to be self-sufficient in important fields that could make you survive as a sovereign country, or to be able to protect your people because of it. Let me tell you that they're militarily 100% dependent on the US. In fact, let me tell you this. Were the US to drop them today, within a week their military would become in-operational for 99%. Their military is practically for a hundred percent maintained by the US. I remember a US military personnel on the internet saying how he was sent there to teach them about maintenance. He said they have no idea what they have to do, even when he explained it to them in detail. He left eventually knowing they're still at the same position when he came. Nearly all of it goes to the oil sector to earn more money for their western allies right? Now that brings us back to where I was in my post. I strongly reject what you wrote in the first line about Saudi youth. I go even as far as saying that even if the youth had the potential, they could not educate them themselves. The following examples jump in my mind right now: * The deal to teach 5000 Saudi students in the Netherlands to become doctors. * Iran gets major revenue from people coming from the Arabian peninsula to get treated at Iranian hospitals. * No job they take seriously would ever be given to a saudi firm (I know examples from people I know that worked there, one being the one I mention below). * Their military is in total shambles, they barely know how to run it (one of the stories i wrote above). Another thing comes to mind. I personally know the former pilot of kuwaiti monarch, and he was also offered a similar job in Saudi (he went there a bit and left). He stories he has told me, would really make you embarrassed to have written what you write. All of his stories involve incompetence and backwardness of these people in all levels. He received a huge salary, but he eventually left because he couldn't take it anymore and his wife and children refused to stay after a short vacation (he lives in the netherlands). Eventually he thought by himself, no money in the world is worth this and he left. He now runs an aviation law firm with the money he made. In fact, most of the reasons for me thinking the way I do are because of either first hand accounts of people I know or because I have read from people on the internet having lived there (and worked in mainly the aviation industry). The sturgeon is almost extinct on this planet, so everyone eating caviar is out of the question. :P Any country wanting to call itself a world power or a regional power must be at least self-sufficient in the relevant fields. But more importantly, it must have an independent leadership. salam

(wasalam) Thank You Dear Brother! After I have already been advised to stay away from these subjects, which I am clearly ignorant of, I still delve back into them, May Allah (SWT) forgive me and protect us from straying form the path after he has guided us.

In His Name, the Most High Salaams I honestly don't understand why people have this almost Machiavellian desire to delve into subjects that they are neither qualified to delve into, nor when delved into will they benefit those delving into them. Subhan Allah! It is important for us to understand the true Islam of Muhammad(S), but just making random threads saying "Such and Such Alem - Good or Bad", or "Alem X Vs Alem Y" are with respect neither productive, nor beneficial to the Ummah, nor particularly intelligent - since the people that generally start them are not qualified in any manner to discuss the given subject, nor does the given subject have even the remotest bearing on their Islamic Thought or their lives. Rather; it would be beneficial for people to acquaint themselves with subjects such as the practical laws they are duty bound to follow, to get better acquainted with the Aqaed - and there are plenty of "non-controversial" sources for this material. So please people; don't waste your lives and your time discussing subjects that will not benefit you in this world or the next. When you have studied to a sensible level, and you are aware of the various Islamic Sciences and thier details and reasonings and methodologies, then khair, you can start discussing them; but I assure you that as your knowledge increases you will find yourself less interested in such irrelvant subjects. With Salaams and Dua's Shabbir

You did not get the point, it is not about ignoring the book or condemning the person, it is about his religious duty as a Jurist/Marja. If the book is known to be blasphemous and the author is guilty of apostasy and if the question is asked to him regarding that then it is applicable for him to give a ruling. He cannot shy away from the matter or as you put it ignore it otherwise he fails in his duty as a Marja. Run a search on this forum, I think it was a member by the name of Abuzar who posted regarding how this issue became as big as it did. It started merely by someone sending a question to the marja asking his ruling on that, incidentally from out of Iran as well. Secondly, you may want to read the actual fatwa. The reward was not offered by him rather an organisation that politicised the fatwa were doing that so that has no bearing on his decree or his decision per say. Yes, people write blasphemous stuff but it is a difference when a person who was an ex-muslim turned apostate writes it. The laws of apostasy are clear on the matter, moreover it is your preception that the aftermath shows his decision was wrong. As I said for him it is doing his duty, which was to decree it as what Islam specifies on the issue.

A_Follower I know you are smarter than that. You are suggesting he could not have simply IGNORED the damn book, or even condemned Rushdie without ordering people to kill him and offering a reward if they did so? People write blasphemous stuff all the time (and they always will) and whatever the options were (btw diplomacy wouldnt have killed them) we know from the "aftermath" that the option he chose was downright wrong.

its unacceptable for him to masturbate while his wife is away but perfectly acceptable for him to take another wife for an hour and have sex with her. :dry:

The source of legislation is Allah(s.w.a) alone. Allah(s.w.a) has prohibited the man to masturbate, according to the ahadith of our Prophet and Imams(a.s). So the wife acceptance/non-acceptance of her husband masturbating is irrelevant for those who believe in Allah(s.w.a) and the Rasalat of the Holy Prophet(p.b.u.h).

(salam) Sex is haram. Its a shameful act.

if i masterbate like three times a day, how bad is it really? better than having sex with a kafir right?

(salam) Bro , even I love Karachi .... but your statistics are not corrects ... Ibn-e-Qasim is not the largest park in Asia Its in China... The largest slum is in Mumbai and not Karachi :) Peace

a cowardly act, who ever did it

(salam) You better stay in Manchester , you second class Asian citizen of UK .... you dont have to butt your nose in our business. I suggest you fight for your survival in the UK .. Why don't you come back to Pakistan and help the community grow..Infact , stay back , We dont want suck ups to UK/US... Peace

life work hijacked? Did he consider himself the only one to be so qualified? In that case he not only made some serious mistakes, he may have also been seriously arrogant. The concept of VF is part and parcel of Islam - and has no ownership.

every one comes from God and returns to God, its a daily routine of life, God gives life, and God takes it back, God sends with empty pocket, on return, God checks if there is any achievents, greed or degnity, selfishness or selflessness, God checks, there is no doubt about it, prepare yourself when you are questioned, its not an easy, its not difficult either, its in your hand but not tomorrow, now today will never come for montaziri, its same for every one, those, who pray, do a good job, those, who make rows to offer prayers, perform good job, but, Imam is Imam and those, who stand in the rows, cannot cross boundaries, its discipline, freedom of expression is a different thing, and, Breaking the discipline is an entirely different thing, those, who mix them up, commit a great blunder.

Thats just a rumor, I don't think they actually are.. In other news, didn't Kat William just get arrested for a bar fight? I'd love to see video footage of that. Hes so small for a black man.

(salam) your choice brother basim, and as for me i know he is truthful so it don't matter who disagrees or who said what. from what i understand though some marji are more learned then others that would explain the contradiction. but now then each individual should try to decide and learn who it is that is less educated in the field they claim. as to the matter at hand let us put a side the fact of what others say and who this fatwa is from and consider what is said in it, "there is a consensus among jurists that prohibition, is limited to spermatic fluid running" and etc research such matters then we can consider then not right until then to say it is not right just because he is ayatollah fadlallah is like saying isa was bad just because one looks at Christianity's view of him. and no offense brother basim i respect you much. and no offense taking. :)

My point was that you type unfactual nonsense to promote your argument. I never said Sadaat's military dictatorship was correct; it was you actually who brought him up. Howver, Iran today is headed toward a military/ideological dictatorship, as is obvious. The IRGC gain more power by the day and all matters, internally and externally, are seen from the tainted monochromatic prism of military/security interests. Please try to understand what I have said before replying. The silent majority are just struggling to survive a terrible economy, which is caused in part by a terrible government. Those who protest many different aspects of the regime and Khamenei's dictatorship and the creeping power of the IRGC are far more than a 'few youths from Northern Tehran'.