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Bro, it will be easier to discuss matters of disagreement if you stop considering every other comment as a slap in the face. Anyways. . . As for Muslim scholars encouraging scientific advancements, well, science has advanced to the degree that it is blindly obvious to encourage and promote research and invention instead of obstructing it . Muslim scholars, Shia included, are not doing something out of the world. Even the scholars of Christianity, who were traditionally resistant to new scientific ideas no longer create barriers, save for some hardliners, when it comes to contraception, cloning, stem cell research, and even for much hyped hadron collider in Switzerland. The case of anti-science Christians religious men is comparable to the similar sort among Muslims only in the period when scientific inventions/discoveries were newly introduced to them. It came from the West and it was duly resisted. I am not sure about Shia scholars of Safavid era in Persia but Ottomon scholars rejected the printing press technology of Europe by calling it an 'instrument of the devil'. Same happened with loudspeakers and clocks. There have been religious edicts on the impermissiblity of owning a television set because it breached hijab for women in the house. Electricity was also handiwork of the devil because it caused death [if you touched a livewire], I can go on and on. That happened for no other reason but ignorance. The arguments which mullahs brought against those scientific inventions were supposedly "Islamic", or so the mullahs thought. The resistance to scientific inquiry is not exclusive to Christian clergy of the Middle Ages. Every organised religious community had its fair share of resistance. The good luck with Muslims is that it came to them when most of the things were so obvious that they couldn't be resisted. I wonder how would a Shia scholar in 988 C.E. have reacted to the proposal that it is not the sun that moves around the earth, but the earth that goes around the sun. Switch your mental time machine on, go back to the said year, and see how ridiculous this proposal sounds. Seestani and all other Shia maraji' in Iraq badly need your advice. They should stand up and turn Iraq into another Shia dominated theo-democracy just like Iran. They will get a big round or applause from the pro-WF. Bad analogy. I wouldn't want a gynecologist to operate on my eye. I wouldn't want masters of Islamic jurisprudence to run the political affairs of my country unless they can demonstrate their competence and popularity in a free and fair election.

I wouldn't mind an ayatullah or a marja', be it Khamenei or Shirazi, running for presidency or premiership, whatever the top job is, in a democracy. Further to their capacity as religious scholars of Shia, if they believe that they have a vision for the country and political skills needed to put that vision into action, they can be my guest. The problem with Iran is that religio-political scholars born out of the doctrine of WF has reserved the right to rule the country for themselves. The people are regarded as incompetent flock, to be constantly 'guided' and policed, and unable to run for the highest office [of the Supreme Leader] and even for the presidency unless watched over by the Leader and his appointed few.

The Balfour Declaration predates the holocaust by 20 years. Try again.

It is reasonable to believe that some minority, through their striving, will achieve such a level of self-perfection. The problem is the assumptions that: 1. This group of purified ones necessarily coincides or correlates with the set of individuals pursuing the arcane educational program of the marja at-taqlid. 2. That, therefore, there is no need to place these people directly accountable to the people. 3. That it is wise to operate under the assumption that power will not correct these individuals rather than assuming they will and putting checks in place From a theoretical perspective we believe that utlimately Islam has something to say about every issue. It does not follow from this that our ulema will have this complete understanding of how Islam applies to all things. One of the key aspects of governance is economics. If you look amongst the writings of the maraja, you see pretty quickly that we don't have a comprehensive, elaborated Islamic economic theory. We have the rudimentary beginnings of an interpretation by as-Sadr, and a few scattered efforts since, but that's about it. But to come back to the passage from me to which the above quoted excerpt from you replied. You didn't really address the heart of the objection. There are narrations out there that advise us to seek guidance from religious scholars. There is nothing in this that we are obligated to follow the advice. Now, of course, to the extent the advice of these scholars coincides with Islamic truth, we have a religious duty as an individual to follow the advice. But there is none, zero, nada support for the notion that the scholars have any duty, not even the right, to band together, seize political power, and enforce the the following of their advice. Only an imam has that right and even with the imams we have precedents that they required the consent of the governed before taking such power. Ulema have no inherent right to rule. If they want to rule a nation, they need to seek out this leadership in the same way as any other candidate; by explaining their legislative plan and seeking the free support of the people. Only if the scholar is able to gather this support, and maintain it does he or she have a mandate to govern. Short of this initial and ongoing support, his or her leadership is illegitimate. Ultimately, believers in the Iranian revolution have no credible argument against the notion that a well-respected ulema outside the halls of official political power can still exercise a tremendous influence on the politics of the nation. The proof is the Iranian revolution itself.

I can't help if you don't see a problem with the system in which almost all people are unable to offer their services for the top job due to a legislative clause. Please don't complain when such a system is called authoritarian, dictatorial etc, and not a democracy. Call it anything you like. It is not democratic. I have previously said on SC that the Revolution and the resultant ouster of the hegemonic Shah was a great step forward for the Iranian nation. It was means to an end but it was turned into an end in itself. It's only been thirty odd years and we are seeing cracks beneath the surface. The recent Iranian election is an example that would suffice. I am thinking though. It would be a development of sorts in the Iranian system if a deeply unpopular and widely perceived corrupt religious scholar is 'elected' for the seat of the Supreme Leader. I am thinking of Rafsanjani, i.e; Wali amr Muslimeen-e-jehan Hujjat al-Islam Shaykh Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani. It would be interesting to see how many of pro-WF would support the 'election' of such a figure. How is that even remotely relevant to the matter at hand? I had a picture of a Persian poet in my avatar. I now have a picture of a Pakistani poet. What is so wrong with that?

I will take that as a total failure to deal with the issue at hand. ;) Yah, the only legitimate government in the whole world is Iran's supposedly Islamic system. The rest are just following 'kuffr'. Nothing new. This is for the satisfaction and freedoms of the "insiders", the people of the Iran. I, in my position as a non-Iranian, am not going to insult the ordinary people with my support for those who suppress their individual rights regardless of whether the system has support from a small minority or 'among wide sectors of the masses'.

You made a false one or the other characterization, that either the ulema have veto over legislation and the missile codes in their pocket, or they are detached "armchair intellectuals" sitting in a throne on a mountain. Do you seriously expect a response to that? You are arguing that scholars have no meaningful power and influence unless they have the legal power to force people to listen to and obey them. From where I'm sitting, it's you who is insulting and making a mockery of the ulema.

Bro, Shia mujtahideen of the gone past would have smacked you hard if you had said the same to them. :P

That response has no relevance or connection however to anything I have posted.

Therein lies the fallacy. How did you assume that a great religious leader has necessary skills and expertise to either opine or lead a country inhabited by Muslims in 2009? In other words, why is the top job is restricted to religious scholars?

Well, now you're conflating two distinct matters: 1. Guidance and advice on political issues, either to the populace or to leaders 2. Direct involvement in politics as a political candidate or ruler One can certainly stand above the fray and stay undirtied for the first. A relgious scholar can certainly fulfill this role without conflict of interest, and indeed, this voice, if allowed to freely speak, offers an important check on the actions of politicians by offering non-legally binding advice to his religious followers. The second, you are going to get dirty. Religious scholars are best to stay out of that. Politics is nearly always about compromise, pragmatics, and horse-trading as opposed to consistent adherence to heart and mind felt moral principles. For a layperson, this is OK. Lay people aren't expected to be saints. A lay politican can make mistakes, and if he goes out of line, religious leaders can use their free speech to point out his mistakes, and advise more moral options. The religious leadership stays clean. When the religious leadership wades into the muck of actual day to day politics and actual direct, explicit, legal political power, the very image of the religious leadership is tarnished, with catastrophic effects. We saw this in Catholic Europe of the middle ages, and we see this in Iran of the last 30 years.

I hate to say it but I the guy is spot on, except that "moderate" politicians are also part of the problem (due to their corruption and indifference to real problems affecting the country).

Im starting this thread to encourage people to upload e-books or articles on all aspects of Islam here - there is a lot of stuff out there thats only in some academic journals, obscure websites, books that have been scanned by people just for their private use because they are long out of print or too expensive to buy, etc. in short - there is a lot of stuff that is either not widely available or is available but doesn't really reach many people so please share for the benefit of others. Im sure you guys have a lot of amazing stuff others can make use of. If a book is too big to upload here you can upload it on websites like scribd.com and post a link. If you have a rare book/article not available in an electronic form, please scan it and upload it. Please contribute inshallah. First few from me: Tuhaf al-Uqul (Masterpieces of the Intellects) compiled by al-Harrani http://www.scribd.com/doc/13366909/Tuhaful-Uqool Ibrahim Kalin Mulla Sadra on Theodicy and the Best of All Possible Worlds Rumi Fihi Ma Fihi Shaykh Arif Abdul Hussain Ensoulment and the Prohibition of Abortion in Islam mullasadratheodicy.pdf Rumi - Fihi ma Fihi.pdf ensoulment and prohibition of abortion.pdf

islam will never be victorious as long as it continues to deny the holocasut out of sheer desperation in trying to fight Israel. theres no real victory without dignity, it's just another kind of loss

This is called "lying." Yeah, that's one of the problematic acts.

I came across a translation of an Arabic article entitled ÇáÇãÑ Èíä ÇáÇãÑíä. Al-Amr Bayna al-Amrayn is the Shia term for the state between fate and free will that man occupies in relation to Allah and the outside world. It has been translated as "A Case Inbetween Two Concerns." The Ahlul Bayt (as) advocated a middle path between them, one that accounts for Allah's power in the world, while at the same time acknowledging man's free will and the concepts of reward and punishment. A section of al-Kafi has been named about it: http://www.alhikmeh.com/arabic/mktba/hadith/alkafi01/06.htm#001 Its translation is here: http://www.al-shia.org/html/eng/books/hadith/al-kafi/part3/part3-ch31.htm Upon researching the concept further, I found this article in Arabic: http://www.rafed.net/books/aqaed/amr/index.html It has been translated, and can be downloaded from here: http://www.alimamali.com/html/eng/books/amr/amr.doc

"That can't be very good for hezbollah.. you die a martyr and half of Southern Lebanon has at it with your wife" :lol:

This topic has been discussed to death in various Shia forums around the web. In my view, the governance system of Iran, despite its shortcomings, is one that every Shia should be proud of. However the problem starts when people try to give the government some sort of 'divine' status and reject even a remote observation that is made against that system. At the same time, I have felt that many people who criticize the revolutionary regime go out of their way to prove their points and buy much in the propaganda that is spread by our enemies. The same critics turn a blind eye towards the shortcomings of the model "democracies" around the world. Objectivity demands that all the models should be judged and viewed with a similar yardstick and without bias and grudges or the discussion will be futile and non ending.

I will gladly provide you with information, how ever im not sure what you are speaking about speficaly. What do you mean by "legetimacy of WF" WF means 100000 differnt things. Are you refering to Sayed Khumayni's theory of WF Mutlaq or are you talking about scholars not having a problem with Sayed Khamenie callng him self the current Wali al Faqih. Please be specific.

That Mercedes won't do you any good on your deathbed

(bismillah) (salam) Your math is off.. Let me give you another equation to show you how it is done. 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000(Abu bakr + Umar + Usman + Muawiyah + Yazeed) < (0.000000000000000000000000000000000014)Any dust that falls from an Imams shoe when he walks.

Just to correct something. Imam Ali did not marry another woman during the time he was married to Sayeda Fatima and nor did the Prophet during the time he was married to Sayeda Khadija. The prophet's favorite wife was Sayed Khadija (and he did not marry over her until she passed away) The favorite wive of Imam Ali was Sayeda Fatima (and guess what he did not marry over her during her life either). It's weird ey? They're both infallible and they can both treat multiple wives equally even when they both love their first wives more YET they did not marry over them hmmm I don't know to you but to me it means something .

I apologise if I have caused offence, we all have different opinions and in a forum a debate is likely. You joined the discussion and dogmatized with some very controversial notions; you should not be upset when others disagree with your unsupported assertions. Islam is a religion whose first word is iqra', "read", and one of it's conditions is ijtihad, the seeking of comprehension. I believe it is a condition that is asked from all, not only from scholars. It is a religion that asks from all its believers to be able to read, and therefore to gain the means to search for truth themselves. (17:36) You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them. Islam now has been high jacked by religious bigots who spend time deciding how many angels will fit on the tip of a pin. I am tired of the same old soup. Islam used to be a great nation, the axis and focus of excellence, its universities and learning hubs were the envy of the known world. This was achieved not by piousness or prayer but because Islam was liberal, daring and innovative. And as far as knowledge of the unseen goes: "With Him are the Keys of the Ghayb; none knows them but He." (Quran 6:59) Wslm.

Another point about Malcolm X: His views underwent a massive shift in the later period of his life as he moved from the racism of the Nation of Islam to mainstream Islam. A lot of this rhetoric about "House Negroes" comes from the earlier period, and Muslims, who have accepted Malcolm X as one of their own because of his later shift in views, need to be consistent, and therefore careful, when attempting to use selectively quotes from the earlier period. It was all part of a perspective.

but if weed doesnt affect my or anyones relationship with Allah, should it be considered halal after final prayers and then considered haram an hour before first prayer in the morning? is smoking hookah(with the flavored tobacco) halal or haram?

Sitting in north England, I had no idea what happened at Fort Hood. I also had no clue about Blackwater incident. My only source is media and, by some unfortunate scheme of things, the popularity of a news is directly proportional to the amount of coverage it gets. Add that to the simple phenomenon that we are more worried about our surroundings than a far off land and you get the equation balanced. Just like 2H2+O2 --> 2H2O. How many people were killed four years ago on 7/7? The answer is 52. How many people have been killed in bomb blasts in Pakistan in the last two months alone? I don't know the dead count. I don't think it is about Muslims vs non-Muslims killed, or about deaths in America vs. Non-America, or to fit in or pop out.

You're guaranteed to see people pile on to the latter. However, unless a "few people" push on the former, you're unlikely to see serious comment.

I disliked this thread because it really provided nothing but divisiveness and labels. There are those who will jump at the chance to dismiss someone as an apologetic or an extremist and those who have the intellectual capacity to realize that there is something deeper and more profound that drives people.. good, decent people.. and establishes their priorities. If there is no problem with that.. why mention it? Condemnation of the Fort Hood shooter was essential because of the implications of his actions for Muslims in the United States, which is why people reacted so passionately to it. We are not trying to fit anyone's mold or be like anyone "wants us to be." We are following the true message of Islam by condemning an unjust, cowardly act by an individual who threatens the sensitive issue of Muslim integration the West and there is nothing but virtue in this. I was involved in the thread because it was part of the conversation in 3 of my lectures that day and my university was in an uproar about the incident. Yes, people are quick to react to the things that directly involve them and less quick to react to things that don't. This is a reality that is constantly demonstrated and does not require any shock or amazement. I don't remember the blackwater thread (I was not very active at that time) but I assure you that you won't find one person who condemned the Fort Hood shooter and supported the atrocity committed on September 16th.

1-It is not haraam for a female Sayed to marry a non-Sayed. 2-A virgin must have the consent of her father for marriage. That is the law for most Marjaa'. You need to contact your Maraa' to see if there are exception jurisprudence for your case. I'm assuming the only reason your father is rejecting this man is because he is not a Sayed, that is an invalid excuse and hence contacting your Marjaa' or his assistants for the exact jurisprudence is better. What about getting someone, a religious and respected figure in your community, to speak with your father, explaining to him the "halaalness" of a female Sayeds to marry non Sayeds? Do you think there is someone who can influence your father's decision? Out of curiosity, and if you don't mind answering, how old are you? And are you independent financially and socially(meaning do you need your father's permission when you leave home or to go on trips on to take serious decisions?)?

Maybe it's not that simple. Others can show you the way, but you may only find yourself in light of your own thoughts and feelings.

Come on guys, I wont be doing this by myself Summary of Logic Sayyid Sadiq Shirazi A_Summary_Of_Logic.pdf

I suggest everybody states the title of the book/article and the name of the author with their upload. Another one from me: Shaykh Arif Abdul Hussain Prostration on Dust prostration on dust.pdf

Salam Now Watch Live Majalis From Karachi and Lahore at www.babulilmlibrary.com Want to share some information regarding the live majalis Broadcasts from Karachi and Lahore. Please note the timmings (according to Pakistan Please change these according to your Region Ayatullah Aqeel Gharvi , at Ali Mutaqi Jaffari , 8:00 a.m PST Mohtarma Shama at Khurasan , 10:30 a.m PST Moulana Hafiz Tasaduq Hussain , Lahore , 6:30 p.m PST Alama Hasan Zafar , at Masjid-e-Babulilm , 8:00 p.m PST Moulana Kalbe Sadiq , at Khurasan , 8:30 p.m PST at www.babulilmlibrary.com Plesae share with other momeneens. Regards Babulilm Network

(bismillah) (salam) Maryland / DC Areas: looking forward to Syed Haider Bahar ul-Uloom and Dr. Liyakat Takim. Both gave amazing lectures last year.

(bismillah) (salam) , Live and recorded majalis at: Jaffari center-The Largest Shia Center in Atlanta Zainabia Islamic Center, Atlanta

Syed Mahdi Moderresi is reciting in London, UK at the Stanmore Imambargah. You can view his lectures live at: http://www.hujjat.org/ They are at GMT time, so there may be time difference from wherever you are. Rumina

Maulana Sadiq Hassan (Urdu) and Sheikh Arif (English) will be reciting in Birmingham Birmingham MKSI

Maulana Murtaza Zaidi at the Qusais Imam Bargah in Dubai. He is extremely good.

an other info for london (north west London / UK ) http://www.bza.org.uk/

In the afternoon, he will be reciting at Cricklewood Youth Club...

(salam)

Dubai Satwa Imambargah Mahe Muharram 1430 Program - Sunday 28 December onwards * Mahe Muharram Majalis Program for Ladies and Gents begins at 7:45 pm with Surae Yasin, English Lecture by Sayed AliRaza Naqvi of UK (8 to 8:30 pm), Followed by Urdu Majlis by Maulana Muhammed Raza Dawoodani of Pakistan (8:40 to 9:20 pm) ending with Maatam, Ziyarat and Nyaz. Live Feed: http://multimedia.dubaijamaat.com/livestream.htm Website: http://www.dubaijamaat.com/

Sheikh Salim YusufAli, the founder and webmaster of the website www.al-islam.org will be coming from Iran to speak at the Al-Mahdi Foundation starting Sunday, December 28 in Phoenix, Arizona. www.almahdi.net

Shah-e-Najaf Islamic Center, Brentwood, Long Island, New York Speech by Maulana Musharaf Hussaini at 8:30pm Matam and Noha khani by Shahid Bilti from Pakistan at 9:30pm From December 28th, 2008 to January 07th, 2009

MESSAGE FROM UK MUHARRAM 1430 AH PROGRAMME AT IMAM ALI RIDHA (as) CENTRE, REGINA ROAD, CHELMSFORD CM1 1PE The Muharram 1430AH programme for Essex Jamaat is as follows: Reciting Maulana: Sheikh Mohammed Al Hilli (of London) 1st Night of Muharram: Monday 29th December 2008 Please Note: Each weekday evening, the programme will commence at 8.15pm sharp. On Saturday and Sunday, the programme will commence at 7:00pm sharp. Ladies’ Majalis Programme: Ladies’ majalis programme is, as follows: Mon 29th Dec 08 - Sun 4th Jan 09 10:15 Hadise Kisa 10:30 Marthiya 10:40 Majlis 11:40 Nawha/Ziarat 12:10 Salaat/Tabarruk Majlises are to be recited by Fatmabai Asaria (of London)

January 2009/ Muharram 1430 Ashra majalis from 1st to 9th Muharram, 30th dec to 8th Jan 2009 @ 9:00 p.m. Speaker: Khateeb e Ahl e Bait a.s Jan Ali Shah Kazmi http://www.markaz.org.uk/

Zakira: Mohtarrma Syeda Shabbi-e-Zahra http://www.imamiamission.org.uk/?module=updates&id=1324

Speaker: Yong Zakir, Brother Hussain Al Nashed (Iraqi), London http://www.sakinatrust.org/?module=updates&id=1321

mazhers bhaiyya aapki tabiyat toh theek hai na?? ^_^ jus wondering...maybe ur not feelin well hena.....