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No Muslim is superior to another. All Muslims are judged only on the basis of their faith and character, not their race, ethnicity, caste or tribe – or - gender. Women are given the same level of humanity as men..only what each does with this humanity and ability to follow Islam will give a measure of difference between them. “Whoever, be it a male or a female, does good deeds and he or she is a believer, then they will enter the Paradise.” (4:124) The dissimilarities of men and women are things of beauty and wonderment and are collectively ” one of the most wonderful masterpieces of creation” These are good things, not bad. Men and women are to co-exist in harmony – to bring out the best qulaities in eadh other to help us weather the tests of life together. Where does it say that men are to conquer and subjugate? From post above: http://www.al-islam.org/womanrights excerpt: DUALITIES From the physical point of view man, on an average has larger limbs and woman smaller. Man is taller and woman is shorter. Man is coarser and woman is finer. Man's voice is comparatively rough and heavy, and woman's delicate and delightful. The bodily growth of woman is quicker, and that of man is slower. It is said that even the growth of a female foetus is quicker than that of a male foetus. Physically, man is stronger than woman, and his muscles are more developed, but woman has a greater power of resistance than man. Woman reaches the stage of puberty earlier, and loses the capability of reproduction earlier. A girl speaks earlier than a boy. The average brain of man is larger than the average brain of woman, but, in proportion to the whole body, the average brain of woman is larger. The lungs of man can breathe more air than those of woman. The heart of woman beats more rapidly than that of man. Psychologically, man is more inclined to physical exercise, hunting and active life. The feelings of man are challenging and bellicose, whereas woman has a peaceful disposition. Man is aggressive; woman is comparatively calm and quiet. Woman avoids violence, and that is why the cases of suicide by women are fewer. Even when committing suicide, men tend to be more violent; they resort to shooting or hanging themselves or jump off lofty buildings, whereas women use sleeping pills, opium etc. for this purpose. Woman is more emotional than man and is more easily excited. Man is comparatively cool-minded. Woman is, by nature, much interested in ornaments, cosmetics, make-up and the latest fashions of clothes whereas man is not. Feelings of woman are not stable; she is comparatively fickleminded. She is more cautious, more religious, more talkative, more fearful and more ceremonious than man. Her feelings are motherly from childhood She cannot compete with man in deductive sciences and dry intellectual subjects, but in literature and arts like painting etc. she is not at all behind him. Man has a greater power of concealing his secrets. He can keep the unhappy happenings to himself and that is why he is more often afflicted with the diseases caused by introversion. Woman is more sensitive and soft- hearted than man; she can easily resort to weeping and sometimes even becomes unconscious. A COMPARATIVE VIEW OF EACH OTHER Man is the slave of his desires; woman is the bonds-maid of love. Man loves the woman whom he likes; woman loves the man who realises her value and proclaims his love to her. Man wants to own the woman; woman wants to dominate man's heart. Man wants to overpower woman; woman wants to penetrate into his heart. Man wants to capture woman; woman wants to be captured. Woman wants man to be courageous and gallant; man wants woman to be beautiful and charming. Woman wants the protection of man, and looks upon such protection as the most valuable thing she can possess. She can control her desires. Man's sexual urge is active and aggressive, woman's passive and excitable. DISPARITIES BETWEEN MAN AND WOMAN An American psychologist, Professor Reek has published in a voluminous book the result of his researches into the affairs of man and woman. He says: "The world of man is totally different from that of woman. If woman cannot think or act like man, it is because they belong to two different worlds." He further says: 'According to the Old Testament, man and woman have come into being from the same flesh. That is true, but though they have come into being from the same flesh, they have two different bodies, which are totally unlike each other in composition. They never have the same feelings and never show the same reactions to various incidents and accidents. They are like two planets moving in two different orbits. They may understand each other and may be complimentary to each other, but they are never unified. That is why they may live with each other, love each other and may not get fed up with the temperament of each other." Professor Reek compares the spirit of man with that of woman and discovers many of their dissimilarities. He says: "It is boring to man to have to live always with the woman he likes. But nothing is more pleasant to woman than to be near the man she loves. Man always wants to be the same, but woman wants to get up every morning with a new and fresh look. The best sentence which a man can address to a woman is: 'My dear, I love you'. The most beautiful sentence, which a woman says to a man of her choice is: 'I am proud of you'. The man who has had several mistresses in his life becomes an object of attraction for other women, but men do not like the woman in whose life more than one man has existed. When men become old, they feel distressed because they lose the jobs on which they depended. The old women feel happy, because, from their own point of view, they come to possess all the best things one could desire, a house and a few grandchildren. Good luck from man's point of view means securing a respectable position in the society. But to a woman good luck means to captivate the heart of a man and keep it safe throughout her life. A man always wants to convert the woman of his choice to his own religion and nationality. For a woman it is as easy to change her religion and nationality for the sake of the man she likes as to change her family name following the marriage." A MASTERPIECE OF CREATION Irrespective of the question whether or not dissimilarity between man and woman causes the dissimilarity in their respective rights and responsibilities, dissimilarity itself is one of the most wonderful masterpieces of creation. It is a question which leads one to the recognition of Allah and His Unity. It proves that the system of this world has been most wisely and exquisitely planned. It shows that creation is not a matter of chance. Nature is not a blind force. It is not possible to interpret the world phenomena without recognising the Ultimate Cause'. With a view to preserving the species, the great creative mechanism has brought the reproductive system into existence. Males and females are continuously being produced. As the continuity of the human species depends upon their mutual co-operation, nature has seen to it that the males and females seek coexistence with each other. For that purpose self-interest which is essential to every living being has been converted into sentiments of service, co-operation and tolerance. To make the scheme practical, and to ensure that their bodies and souls fit in each other comfortably, certain physical and spiritual disparities between them have been arranged. These very disparities attract man and woman to each other. If woman had the same physical features, the same temperament and the same habits as man has, it would not have been possible for her to attract man towards her, in the same way as she does now. If man had the same physical and psychological features dissimilarities as woman has, she would not have regarded him as her ideal and would not have done anything to win his heart. Man has been created to dominate the world, and woman has been created to dominate man. The law of creation has so ordained that both man and woman seek each other and are interested in each other. But their relationship is not of that nature which they have with other possessions; that relationship emerges from selfishness. They want to possess things for their own use, and look on them as the means of their comfort. But, the relationship between man and woman means that each one of them wants the comfort and happiness of the other, and enjoys making sacrifices for the sake of the other.

No you don't. You believe in taking 1200 and 1400 year old statements addressed to social relations when most women could not read or write and applying them literally, with no consideration of this contextuality to a time when women make up the majority of university graduates even in Islamic nations. That's not "honest submission to the religion;" it's incompetent analysis of its texts.

Yes, I am familiar with Usool-al-kafi, which is why you will have to excuse me if I take your haddiths with a grain of salt.. especially since you yourself did not paste the grading (fyst did) and you would have been more than happy to peddle off these haddiths as the absolute truth. I personally would reject a number of the ones that simple do_not_make_sense and are WEAK. Are you saying that Muslim men today should not talk to their wives in confidentiality? Or that they should not seek the advice of their wife? Because that is what the haddiths say. And then you follow that up with a pretty little sentence where you have the audacity to suggest that not adhering to these haddiths will cause the breakdown of families I too believe in honesty to the religion.. not honesty to you.

(wasalam) From al-Kafi: باب في ترك طاعتهن Chapter on the abandonment of obeying them (women) (10227) - 1 - أبوعلي الاشعري، عن محمد بن عبدالجبار، عن صفوان، عن إسحاق بن عمار قال: قلت لابي الحسن (ع) وسألته عن المرأة الموسرة قد حجت حجة الاسلام فتقول لزوجها: أحجني من مالي أله أن يمنعها؟ قال: نعم ويقول: حقي عليك أعظم من حقك علي في هذا. 1 – Abu `Ali al-Ash`ari from Muhammad b. `Abd al-Jabbar from Safwan from Ishaq b. `Ammar. He said: I said to Abu ‘l-Hasan عليه السلام and asked him about the wealthy woman who has performed the hajj of Islam and who says to her husband: I will go (?) on hajj from my property. Is it for him that he may forbid her? He said: Yes, and he says: My right upon you is greater than your right upon me in this. (10228) - 2 - عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن ابن محبوب، عن عبدالله بن سنان، عن أبي عبدالله (ع) قال: ذكر رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) النساء فقال: اعصوهن في المعروف قبل أن يأمرنكم بالمنكر وتعوذوا بالله من شرارهن وكونوا من خيارهن على حذر. 2 – A number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Mahbub from `Abdullah b. Sinan from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله mentioned women, so he said: Disobey them in the good before they command you to the evil, and take refuge with Allah from their evil ones and be cautious of their good ones. (10229) - 3 - علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن النوفلي، عن السكوني، عن أبي عبدالله (ع) قال: قال رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله): من أطاع امرأته أكبه الله على وجهه في النار، قيل: وماتلك الطاعة؟ قال: تطلب منه الذهاب إلى الحمامات والعرسات والعيدات والنياحات و الثياب الرقاق. 3 - `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from an-Nawfali from as-Sakuni from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله said: One who obeys his woman Allah will prostrate him upon his face in the Fire. It was said: And what is that obedience? He said: She seeks from him to go out to the bath houses, weddings, `eids, lamentations, and fine clothing. (10230) – 4 – وبإسناده قال: قال رسول الله: طاعة المرأة ندامة. 4 – And by his isnad, he said: The Messenger of Allah said: Obedience to the woman is a regret. (10231) – 5 – عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن أبي عبدالله، عن أبيه، عمن ذكره، عن الحسين ابن المختار، عن أبي عبدالله (ع) قال: قال أمير المؤمنين (ع) في كلام له: اتقوا شرار النساء وكونوا من خيارهن على حذر وإن أمرنكم بالمعروف فخالفوهن كيلا يطمعن منكم في المنكر. 5 – A number of our companions from Ahmad b. Abu `Abdillah from his father from the one whom he mentioned from al-Husayn b. al-Mukhtar from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام said in speech of his: Be wary of the evil ones of women and be cautious from their good ones. And if they command you to the good then contradict them (khalifuhunna, oppose them, be at variance to them, disobey them) that they might not expect from you in regards to the evil. (10232) - 6 - وعنه، عن أبيه رفعه إلى أبي جعفر (ع) قال: ذكرعند أبي جعفر (ع) النساء فقال: لاتشاوروهن في النجوى ولا تطيعوهن في ذي قرابة. 6 – And from him from his father going up to Abu Ja`far عليه السلام. He said: Women were mentioned with Abu Ja`far عليه السلام, so he said: Do not take counsel with them in confidential talk and do not obey them in regards to (one’s) relations. (10233) - 7 - محمد بن يحيى، عن محمد بن الحسين، عن عمروبن عثمان، عن المطلب بن زياد رفعه عن أبي عبدالله (ع) قال: تعوذوا بالله من طالحات نسائكم وكونوا من خيارهن على حذر ولا تطيعوهن في المعروف فيأمرنكم بالمنكر. 7 – Muhammad b. Yahya from Muhammad b. al-Husayn from `Amr b. `Uthman from al-Muttalib b. Ziyad going up to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: Take refuge with Allah from the vicious ones of your women and be cautious of their good ones. And do not obey them in the good so they would command you to the evil. (10234) - 8 - وعنه، عن أبي عبدالله الجاموراني، عن الحسن بن علي بن أبي حمزة، عن صندل عن ابن مسكان، عن سليمان بن خالد قال: سمعت أبا عبدالله (ع) يقول: أياكم ومشاورة النساء فإن فيهن الضعف والوهن والعجز. 8 – And from him from Abu `Abdillah al-Jamurani from al-Hasan b. `Ali b. Abi Hamza from Sandal f rom Ibn Muskan from Sulayman b. Khalid. He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام saying: Beware you of consulting women for in them is weakness, feebleness and incapacity. (10235) - 9 - وعنه، عن يعقوب بن يزيد، عن رجل من أصحابنا يكنى أبا عبدالله رفعه إلى أبي عبدالله (ع) قال: قال أمير المؤمنين (ع): في خلاف النساء البركة. 9 – And from him from Ya`qub b. Yazid from a man from our companions who has the kunya Abu `Abdillah going up to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام said: In contradicting (khilaf, variance, opposing, difference ) women is the blessing. (10236) - 10 - وبهذا الاسناد قال: قال أميرالمؤمنين صلوا ت الله عليه: كل امرء تدبره امرأة فهو ملعون. 10 – And by this isnad, he said: Amir al-Mu’mineen صلوا ت الله عليه said: Every man who a woman administers, then he is cursed. (10237) - 11 - محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الحسين بن سيف، عن إسحاق بن عمار، رفعه قال: كان رسول الله (ص) إذا أراد الحرب دعا نساء ه فاستشارهن ثم خالفهن. 11 – Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from al-Husayn b. Sayf from Ishaq b. `Ammar going up to him. He said: When the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله wanted to (go to) battle, he would call his women and seek their council then he would contradict them. (10238) - 12 - علي، عن أبيه، عن عمروبن عثمان، عن بعض أصحابه، عن أبي عبدالله (ع) قال: استعيذوا بالله من شرار نسائكم وكونوا من خيارهن على حذر ولاتطيعوهن في المعروف فيدعونكم إلى المنكر، وقال: قال رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله): النساء لايشاورن في النجوى ولا يطعن في ذوي القربى، إن المرأة إذا أسنت ذهب خير شطريها وبقي شرهما وذلك أنه يعقم رحمها ويسوء خلقها ويحتد لسانها وأن الرجل إذا أسن ذهب شر شطريه وبقي خيرهما وذلك أنه يؤوب عقله ويستحكم رأيه ويحسن خلقه. 12 - `Ali from his father from `Amr b. `Uthman from one of our companions from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: Seek refuge with Allah from the evil ones of your women and be cautious of their good ones. And do not obey them in the good so they would call you to the evil. And he said: And the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله said: Women, do not consult them in private conversation and do not obey them with regards to (one’s) relations. Verily the woman, when she becomes old the good of her two halves goes and their evil remains, and that is that her womb becomes barren, her creation worsens and her tongue becomes furious. And the man, when he becomes old the evil of his two halves goes and their good remains, and that is that his `aql returns, his view becomes ingrained and his creation is made handsome. http://www.*******.org/hadiths/marriage/not-obeying-women

As far as I know, if a wife demands sex, the husband is obliged to obey her in that matter. This is also the case for other household issues, like getting a maid if he can afford it. I know that even in issues that bother her and are important she can force her husband to obey, like change the channel or get a cup of water. However the husband cannot force his wife to obey in these domestic issues (except for sex). I saw this in one class I took on Kitab al-Talaaq on issues of obedience and kirahah, I will try to get some fiqhi texts to support this however.

Yeah. Really. There's no "if." What I am saying is true. Please reference his posts in this thread, and in any number of other threads. The line "if you disagree with me, it's because you're weak in your religion" is consistent within his posts. You're not going to find him explicitly state, "this scholar or that is a heretic," but you will find him making the sort of characterizations I describe about those who disagree with him, and well, there are scholars who disagree with him. Apply the syllogism, and the conclusion follows inevitably. You will also often hear him dismiss certain scholars who consistently disagree with him with an "oh, that guy," or a roll-eyes smiley. I didn't "fail" to answer your question. I didn't answer it period. I found the question rude and a little beside the point. I don't have the Arabic to read philosophical texts in Arabic, and never claimed expertise in these texts. But you don't need expertise in these texts to inductively "reverse engineer" (from reading a lot of rulings and hearing discussion of rulings) some basic jurisprudential principles to a decent enough "working knowledge" level to participate in discussions. I don't buy the premise that my participation in a discussion is delegitimized by my not having read certain specific jurisprudential texts. That said, I am always open to learning. If there are any translated to English texts out there you recommend, let me know, and I'll add it to my heavily backlogged "to read list." I often hear this strange objection, but it's rather baseless, and shows a basic, fundamental misunderstanding of my perspective. What ahadith do I advance to support my point of view? Well, the same ones. My point of view is not based on saying, "oh, forget this hadith; take this one instead." It's not about which texts to use, it's about the methodology of analyzing them in the light of socio-historical context and in the light of the more general Islamic principles and goals. It's about saying, "OK, let's look at these narrations. The literal surface reading would imply not letting women be judges or leaders. But that's a restriction on women's freedoms, and generally Islam doesn't violate someone's freedom unless there's a good reason; let's make sure to see whether this is really something that was meant to be timeless advice or whether it was something meant for a specific time. What are rational arguments put forward to say women are inherently incapable of leadership? OK, listening...Oh, baseless chauvenistic ramblings. OK. Let's look deeper at the socio-historical context. Is there some historically or culturally specific good reason why leadership for women would not have been desirable or a good idea then which does not generally apply now? Let's think. Yes. Women were generally uneducated, and generally were involved in society mostly in the domestic sphere, and generally were not respected, and leadership politically generally involved some martial component of direct physical combat. Does the retort "what hadiths are you using for proofs" make any sense in this light? None whatsoever. It misses the point completely. My understanding is that generally permissibility of anything is understood by default, and that the burden is on providing proof that it should be prohibited. That people should be by default free in various regards unless there is a reason for them to be constrained. Evidently al-Khoei believed that narrations such as mentioned above were sufficient proof for this. Apparently he believed either that these ahadith were intended as general timeless advice or that the conditions up to his time were similar enough to keep the same judgement. Whereas I would disagree, and say that it seems clear to me that there were historically and culturally specific reasons for those advices at that time, and that therefore those narrations are not legitimate proofs to restrict the default state of freedom of women in general. So, again, you're being misleading when you suggest I advocate using only reason with no reference to textual proofs. Rather, I advocate a combination of the two. You will have to decide for yourself whether you will follow consistently the philosophy of respecting differences of opinion amongst the senior scholars. LOL. I viscerally loathe the man. But even a broken clock is right twice a day, isn't it?

I got your point precisely, but you seem to be missing mine that you apply your criticism inconsistently. Macisaac does not just drop the ahadith and state his opinion. He does this and then accuses anyone who disagrees with not only of being foolish, but irreligious, heretics, etc. He does this a lot. He does this even in issues where there is scholarly disagreement at the highest level. The opinion exists, for example, amongst our own maraja, that women can certainly be leaders, marjas, judges, etc. Macisaac is implicitly calling these scholars heretics for disagreeing with him. Where is your criticism of Macisaac's intolerance? I am not seeing it anywhere. Please clarify whether you wish to apply your principles consistently. I've done so in depth on this site very recently. I generally respect the institution of marjaiyyah but reserve judgement on the stands of individual, human, imperfect scholarws. These scholars are all well-educated people, but they have human weaknesses as well as strengths. From your description of him "demolishing" the lame "rational" arguments usually used by those who deny that women can be leaders, it sounds like he had some courage to a certain extent. I aplaud him for that. But for him to prove that there is no rational basis to deny women leadership todayy, and yet to persist in the position that women should nevertheless be denied leadership is in my view a failure in courage. That's the only way I can characterize it. But I aplaud him to the extent that his courage in refutating bad pseudo-rational arguments against women as leaders paved the way for others to step out and go a step farther. I recognize that these scholars are constrained to some extent in their exercise of ijtihad by a highly conservative, ignorant, and reactionary population that will often lash out at change, whether it is well-reasoned or not. I recognize the burden of leadership, and the various motivations for them to err on the side of caution. Many will scoff at the notion, but I am convinced that a lot of the maraja are much more ""liberal"" on these "modern issues" than they generally let on, but stay silent due to fear of backlash if they step forward too far ahead of what the lay religious followers are ready to hear. One of the reasons I speak so strongly in favor of reform is to encourage those who think the same to make themselves heard, so that there is enough visible support for our maraja to feel comfortable stepping forward to exercise their ijtihad freely, without fear of being cut down by ultra-conservative reactionaries. Ibrahim Jannaati and Yusuf Saanei are similarly up there in the ranks, and have similarly been teaching for decades. They have no problem with women as political leaders, judges, or even maraja. There is clearly a legitimate difference in scholarly opinion on this matter, and my point of view obviously has some basis. By the way, I have been quite harsh on Ahmadinejad in recent days. Let me give him however, some credit where credit is due for the putting forward of several women as ministerial candidates. Kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight, Mahmoud.

In His Name, the Most High Salaams With respect Br "Awakened"; the title of the Wali Amr al-Muslimeen, is given to the Wali Faqih in the absence of Imam al-Hujjah(AJ). Whether you, or anyone else for that matter, accepts this or not is neither here nor there. It should be remembered that our beloved Aimmah al-Athaar(A) were the ImamÚáíå ÇáÓáÇãs regardless of whether they were accepted by the people or not. The title is not dependent on people's acceptance. Also; as for making it a temporal matter, it should be noted that like the ImamÚáíå ÇáÓáÇãs, the authority of the Wali Faqih or Wali Amr al-Muslimeen is upon the hearts of the believers, regardless of what manner of temporal rule they dwell within. While there are those who do not accept that Imam Khamenei(HA) *is* the Wali Amr al-Muslimeen in the absence of Imam al-Hujjah(AJ), the same way Imam Khumayni(A) was the Wali Amr al-Muslimeen prior to him is completely irrelavent, he is and Imam Khumayni(A) was, and the opinion of those who do not accept this is not worth even a fraction of a grain of salt. With Salaams and Dua's Shabbir

I think you're over-analyzing it. Most people wouldn't likely care and chalk it up as some interesting "quirk" but not actually get offended at it. If they do get offended at something so minor, you might not want their company anyhow. I don't know if I've had the inclination to say it to them myself, usually if I'm conversing with them (like my family) and say I wanted to say something like "in sha Allah" with them actually understanding what I'm saying I might instead say God willing, or if not I might just say in sha Allah but a bit more quickly and lower to myself.

It would be utterly foolish of someone to assert that islam does not hold males and females in equal esteem. They are absolutely equal in the eyes of Allah. Gender roles can perhaps be debated, but not equality in the overall scheme of things. Men are naturally more suited to perform certain roles, men tend to be physically stronger than females, but this in no way shape or form propels them to a higher status above their female counterparts. A handicapped/weak/fragile man may not be fit for a certain role, but this doesn't make him any less of a man as our small minded judgments would have you believe.

Please be carefull in denying hadeeths out right: From Al-Kafi Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Husayn from Muhammad ibn Sinan from ‘Ammar ibn Marwan from Jabir who has said the following: “Abu Ja‘far (as) , has said that the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) has said, ‘Hadith of Ahl al-Bayt are difficult and they become difficult. No one believes in them except the angels who are close to Allah or the Prophets, who are Messengers also, and a servant of Allah whose heart Allah has tested for faith. Whatever comes to you of Hadith if your heart feels relief and you recognized them accept them. Whatever causes antipathy in your hearts and you cannot recognize, leave them to Allah, to the Messenger of Allah and the scholar from the house hold of Muhammad (pbuh). The ones to perish are those who do not accept Hadith of Ahl al-Bayt. Whenever one is narrated to them they say, “By Allah, this was not and that was not.” Denial is disbelief.’

all i want to say is be careful how you read ahadith. traditions have contexts and usually people's intelligence isn't high enough to understand them properly. with that said i don't think we can say all the ahadith regarding women in islam can be applied to all of the women in history.

I don't see why you're all arguing. Soroush (which is a male name, Z_I), asked for some hadiths and got them with the gradings. Interpret and apply them how you will as individuals, what's the point of making a fuss about it all? You aren't going to change the gradings of hadiths, nor are you going to pretend they never existed, so move on.

:huh:

Brother, now I'm not even sure if you're serious. Such claims are simply ridiculous. You're saying that Islam shows, based on fitra, that men are superior and women are inferior. Does this not bother you in any way? And why are you pointing fingers? How does showing the flaw in other systems, removes the flaws (flawed interpretation rather) of our system? There are millions of oppressed and suppressed muslim women as well. Except, it seems, they can't say much, since apparently men have been given a divine green light to think they're superior. They are being oppressed and suppressed in the name of religion. ... shocking to say the least.

One further thing I thought in your OP you said you didn't want mere opinions but wanted to know what the Islamic texts themselves state. The texts themselves, Quran and hadith, are pretty clear on these things, a number of them have been provided here. To twist them around otherwise (or just completely ignore them as so many do) so as to not "permit" a conception you dislike is not being honest to them but is putting emotion and bias above the clear teachings of the religion.

Nonsense. We are not beasts. Our nature is body, mind, and spirit. To jump to conclusions about this integrated being based on mere physical differences is pure and willing ignorance.

Of course I'm assuming it's correct, I am a Muslim after all... Why should I care what a person who doesn't believe in our religion in the first place thinks about it? Suit yourself. But I think it's delusional or dishonest to either think Islam is some egalitarian or even feminist religion. I don't regard this as a negative however, but rather further proof of the correctness of this faith. Islam is the religion of fitra, and fitra clearly shows that there is male and female, and that this properties are not minor accidents but rather play a huge part in who we are as individuals. The true religion would recognize these differences and show us the best way to live with them. Now take the flip side, and look at the people today for all their "egalitarianism". What do we see? Boy men with no sense of responsibility and purpose. Women with no sense of modesty and dignity. Families falling apart with children having no guidance. And lots of depressed, unhappy people leading aimless lives. If you want to believe in that, it's your choice. But please don't try to sully our religion with it.

true ( lifting the remote repeatdly) do u like music? false, have u 2 been playin this all day.?

Asalam Alaikum my dear Brothers and Sisters. I received this is an email so please forward this to as many people as possible. If you have a source of printing than please distribute these tips to visitors in your Imambargah's and/or Mosque's. Thank You. Allah Hafiz. HEALTH REMEDIES Books of reference- Hadyat ul Shia by Ayatullah Mishkini, Tib-e-Imam-e-Raza, Tib-e-Masoomeen, Islamic Meditives (Agha Sistani's message to all momins- Make a Study of the Noble Quran, Nahjul Balagha & Hadyat ul Shia) In Tadbiyat-e-Hikmat it is narrated that Maula Ali (A.S) says like soap cleans clothes but it also wears off the clothes, so too many medications temporarily cleanses the body from diseases but it makes it boosedah. All tips are taken from Majalis recited by Mohtarama Tahera Jaffer-in Moharram 1430 (Jan'09), Karachi. We are grateful to her for directing us to the right path and increasing our knowledge. We are obliged to all those who helped us in the making of this booklet. May Allah Bless them health and prosperity. Please excuse us in case of any error. Imam Ali [a.s] said: "Never, never will prosperity be reached by remaining idle and lazy." FOR CURE FROM DISEASE/ILLNESS: • Ayatullah Nasrullah Burujardi says the patient should pray himself (if the mareez is unable to pray himself then some one should pray on his behalf) – 17,000 times salwat. 1000 salwat hadiya to each of the14 masoomeen, 1000 salwat as hadiya to Bibi Zainab, 1000 salwat as hadiya to Hazrat Abbas and 1000 salwat as hadiya to Umul baneen. (very effective if prayed in one sitting) FOR FULFILLMENT OF HAJJAT AND REMOVING OF WORRIES. • Pray 1000 times in one sitting Allahumma Laan Muawiya ibn Abi Saffyan. (Laan (part of tabbarrah), is very effective because it makes you realize why the laan is being sent on the person, and awakens you to stay away from evil deeds. Praying laan fulfills desires quickly, also pray salwat before and after the tasbihs, also do istigfar) GENERAL TIPS FOR GOOD HEALTH • The Prophet (S.A.W.W) Says- 77 diseases are cured by honey. • Do not stand and drink water at night, incurable disease will be contracted (6th Imam a.s) • Drinking Rain water is beneficial for health • 21 raisins (kishmish) on an empty stomach for good memory and good health. • Do not sleep on an empty stomach. • Eat only when you are hungry. • Use the washroom before sleeping. • Do not sleep in a straight position immediately after a meal, as it hinders digestion and causes gastric problems. • Do not bathe immediately after a meal, as it hinders digestion. • Best not to eat anything except fruits between breakfast and dinner. • Do not eat fruits immediately after a meal, wait for an hour before eating fruits. • Eat the fruits at the beginning of their season. • Don't drink tea immediately after a meal as tea has acid in it and food has protein in it therefore digestion is hindered. • Do not smoke a cigarette immediately after a meal it is equivalent to smoking 10 cigarettes at other times and is the main cause of cancer. • Never urinate in the sea or swimming pools, one contracts incurable disease. • After a hot water bath put a mug of cold water on your feet • Best time to sleep, which is most beneficial, is 2½ hrs after sunset. • Waking up 2½ hrs before sunrise is very beneficial for health. • Start and end your food with a pinch of salt to ward off 70 kinds of diseases. End your meal also with a pinch of salt. • Namaz-e-Shab is best for good health. • Try to do all work facing Qibla and in a state of Wuzu for example Tilwat-e-Quran, cooking, studying etc. • Alims say that honey serves a dual purpose i.e. in the winter it has a warm effect and in summer it has a cooling effect. • Cutting nails on Friday cures many diseases. FOR DIABETES • Elaichi to be chewed thoroughly with the skin, after meals for at least 40 days to see results. • Dairy products, egg yolk, soya beans, garlic, vegetables and fish. Feet should always be clean. Keep your feet dry of moisture and sweat and keep them warm by wearing cotton socks not nylon socks. This plays a very important role for good blood circulation for sugar patient. • Drink garlic juice • Methi/fenugreek (better used in the winter) one teaspoon nihar mouth (early in the morning before eating or drinking something) or in powdered form. And one teaspoon 1 hour before meals. FOR ARTHRITIS • One teaspoon of honey before going to bed. • Remove potato eyes from a raw potato, wash well and liquidize and drink immediately. FOR ARTHRITIS & JOINT PAINS • Fill water in a copper vessel at night and drink it in the morning. • Mix honey 1 teaspoon and 2 teaspoons luke warm water and 1 teaspoon cinnamon powder (dalchinni powder) to be slowly massaged on joint pains. FOR CHORNIC ARTHRITIS • 1 cup hot water, 2 teaspoons honey and 1 teaspoon cinnamon powder mix well and drink twice a day. FOR BACK PAIN • Ginger juice and salt to be mixed and massaged • Massage back with hot olive oil (always use hot oil for massage, it is very effective) • Clove oil massage • ½ teaspoon Ajwine and ½ teaspoon ghur to be chewed well twice a day. If back pain is very severe then increase the quantity to 1 teaspoon each. • FOR LEG CRAMPS / BODY PAIN OR STIFFNESS IN THE BODY- massage with hot coconut oil. • BED WETTING- One teaspoon of honey before going to bed. • FOR A PEACEFUL SLEEP- one teaspoon of honey at night • BEAUTY TIPS- Hadees of Imams For good colour:-use the following in your diet:- Egg plant (began), onion, bahi (queens), bananas and olives • FOR A HEALTHY SKIN- Rub cucumber juice on the face. • Besan ka atta, ghee and water to be mixed and rubbed on face. TO REMOVE STAINS FROM ANY WHERE ON THE BODY- • Boil 1 liter water till ¼ liter remains, then mix glycerin and lime together and use twice a day. FOR HEART PROBLEMS • Drink carrot juice (carrot juice not recommended for pregnant women). • Mix water and ginger juice in equal parts and drink daily. • For pain in the heart- 8-10 tulsi leaves mixed with 2-3 black peppers to be chewed and swallowed FOR HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE • Eat 3-4 lasan (garlic) cloves daily. • Drink milk mixed with crushed lasan. • Nihar mouth 1 teaspoon olive oil. • Eat fresh vegetables and fruits. Bananas and melons are especially beneficial. • 2 teaspoon of honey mixed with 1 teaspoon lemon juice to be taken twice a day. • For High and low Blood Pressure: Do deep breathing. FOR DIARRHEA • Chew 1 teaspoon tea leaves mixed with sugar • Mix luke warm water, lime juice and 1 pinch salt and drink • Rub ginger juice around the naval FOR COUGHS & COLDS • A lemon a day keeps the cold away. • Orange (mosambi) juice. • 1 tblspoon of ginger juice mixed with ½ teaspoon honey. • 2½ cups water to be boiled then add juice of 2 lemons and honey and drink at night. • Drink onion juice and honey mixed together. • For coughs ½ onion dipped in honey overnight and drink the juice • For excessive coughing and to avoid coughing continuously keep pomegranate skin in the mouth FOR BRONCHITIS • Inhaling steam of hot water mixed with garlic cloves. • 5 grams of honey 4 times in the day. • For Phlegm (balghum)-chew dates well and drink hot water over it. • For Colds, Coughs and Phlegm (balghum) in hot milk add haldi, salt and ghur and drink at night. FOR MARRIAGE PROPOSALS • Dua to be prayed for results within 40 days or 3 months - Surah Taha- to be prayed for 41 to 90 days. Better to be prayed at time of shab (night) and completed 5 mins before Namaz-e-Fajr. • Surah Baqarah ayah # 137 to be recited 100 times for marriage proposal, family problems and for anger. Translation: "So if they believe as ye believe, they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back, it is they who are in schism; but Allah will suffice thee as against them, and He is the All- Hearing, the All-Knowing." REASONS OF DEPRESSION: • If you wear black shoes. • If you wear clothes in the standing position. • If you wipe your hands or face with your clothes. • Negative thinking. • Lack of something in your body. • Recalling old memories. Remedies For depression: • Do not wear black shoes. • Wear your dress/clothes in a sitting position. • Do not wipe your hands or face with the clothes you are wearing (also adversely effects rizk and rozi). • Keep a positive attitude towards others even if they do not show a friendly attitude towards you. • Use raw vegetables. • Eat oranges, berries, black grapes, olives. • Eat dry fruits before meal. • Drink warm milk with honey and cinnamon powder (equal quantity) at night. • Drink warm water with 1tbs honey at daytime. • Wash your hair with water of bairi leaves. • Wear yellow slippers or shoes (also beneficial for barkat in rozi/rizk); if yellow is can not be worn then wear white slippers or shoes. (Yellow color is a much liked color in Islam). • Eat fruit of the season in the beginning of the season. • Recite salwat 100 times daily. • Drink orange juice to overcome deficiencies in your body. • Recite BISMILLAH HIR RAHMAN IR RAHIM LAHAULA WALA QUWATA ILLA BILLAH IL ALI UL AZIM 100 times. • When you wake up from sleep recite durud 5times and LAHAUL 8 times while lying down. Again recite durud 5 times and LAHAUL 8 times in a sitting position. Repeat the amaal again when you stand up, when in washroom and finally when washing hands. (In total the amaal should be done 5 times). For exyma and ring worms and all other skin diseases: • Apply honey and cinnamon powder in equal quantity. • Massage the effected area with the paste of baisan flour (for itching). • Do not use egg, peanuts, sugar and dairy products WISH YOU ALL A HEALTHY LIFE. Wishing Your Days Be Filled With Happiness, Peace And Good Health...

He was on this forum LONG before 2006

Evidence has been provided.. it is not my job to spoon feed you an article in farsi (a language I do not understand) where Ahmedinejad says "Let me just clarify once and for all (since me cultivating an image of a holocaust denier in order to win the heart of my fanbase has not been enough) that I am indeed a holocaust denier or a believer that the people killed in the holocaust were a few thousand. While I appreciate your blind support and you continuing defense of me despite all evidence pointing to the contrary, please stop trying to convince people that I am anything else because this has been my intention all along. Haven't you watched my interviews? Trust me.. if I had wanted it to be cleared up I could have :huh: " Also, please refrain from victimizing yourself because people on an online forum disagreed with your opinion. The other day I had a loyal Ahmedinajad supporter (whose posts you tend to agree with) imply that the heels in my display picture were worn exclusively by prostitutes and my intermingling with men on this forum *females discussing stuff with men outside of necessity* made me a dishonorable woman. I didn't dedicate my posts to all the women on this forum who speak their mind. While I appreciate your quest for civil discourse I feel compelled to offer a few suggestions so you are better able to achieve it. 1) Don't engage in the same condescending behavior as the insufferable intellectuals 3) don't claim to be trying to "understand the rational, intentions, and thought process" unless you are actually trying to do so (which means you can't simply be here to peddle your agenda) I never gloss over your posts, I actually find some of them rather informative and they gives me a different perspective on certain issues (I just happen to not agree in this particular case)

Salam What do you take the sentence to possibly mean? Write all the possible meanings you can think of..and then evaluate all of them. wa salam

have u ever thought of that ? like different tribes and different people...white,black,brown,red,blue,pink colour people :P ! I suppose Prophet Adam was arab....so how did other people come from ? :wacko: :wacko: :wacko: :dry: (i think i ate something again thts why my brain questions things again!)

(salam), Description of the Creation of Adam; Allah collected from hard, soft, sweet and sour earth, clay which He dripped in water till it got pure, and kneaded it with moisture till it became gluey. From it He carved an image with curves, joints, limbs and segments. He solidified it till it dried up for a fixed time and a known duration. Then He blew into it out of His Spirit whereupon it took the pattern of a human being with mind that governs him, intelligence which he makes use of, limbs that serve him, organs that change his position, sagacity that differentiates between truth and untruth, tastes and smells, colours and species. He is a mixture of clays of different colours, cohesive materials, divergent contradictories and differing properties like heat, cold, softness and hardness. Nahjul Balagha - Sermon 1 These different colours of clays made the difference in colour skins of the people of the different races; according to scholars. :) The different settlement of the people of different colours in different parts of the world is because the three sons of Prophet Adam (pbuh) who populated the Earth Shem, Ham, and Japheth], went and lived in different parts of the world. (wasalam) Basim Ali Jafri

Holocaust has been made into an idol which is sacred more than the Prophets of God or God Himself for that matter..I can understand the psyche of the Westerners like kadhim who have difficulty in coming out of this idol worship..if Holocaust is a historical reality then why doesnt scholars allowed to question it's facts and figures ?

(wasalam) It's not a matter of inequality being encouraged, it's more a matter of it being recognized. People can shout a million times that men and women are equal, but this will not change the fact that they are in fact different from one another. Islam is a religion that deals with reality, and not something that bends itself to what people want to hear instead. As pointed above, men are in fact set as the guardians and maintainers of women. As you pointed out yourself, Islam could be said to be a "patriachal" religion. If this was not in fact based on some very real differences between men and women and their role in society, the family, as individuals, or for no purpose in doing so such a difference in roles would be unjust. But as Islam is not an unjust religion, we can know that it must have a true basis in reality. Part of those differences are in leadership and obedience. As also stated above, the maintainer and the maintained are not on the same footing, and it really doesn't make sense that the former would be in obedience to the latter. People lose sight of some important things here though. That is, what is the purpose of this life? The point of this brief life is as a testing ground, that the righteous and the wicked be proven. Part of that is that we have been given stations and consequent responsibilities, and part of our judgment, part of our test, is how well we live up to those. In regards to the family and authority, the roles of men and women are different and appropriate to themselves. That is, the man has been given authority over his wife, but, with that authority is a consequent responsibility he has to live up to if he's to be a righteous individual. The woman not holding his authority does not in turn share that responsibility as he does. The role of the woman though is in obedience to her husband, to curb that ego of hers and submit herself to his authority. It's part of her test. A test isn't necessarily going to be easy, but a test it is none the less. At the end, each will be judged in accordance to how well they lived up to the role allotted to them in this life, and it may very well turn out that the obedient, submissive wife ends up honorably in Paradise while the husband who failed at his responsibilities and betrayed the authority that had been given him is burnt wretchedly in Hell. So who in the end there is in the better position?

Well im sorry but how does that work. How can it be that all the muslims in my city and area are doing it on friday and the shia centre is doing it on saturday. SImilarly it is an impossibility that it can be the 10th Zil Hajj in England on Saturday and in Mecca on Friday. Its not about prayer times. They are 3 hours ahead. Not a whole calendar day ahead. This law of "we have to see the moon for ourselves otherwise it isnt eid" is wrong. In England you cant even see the moon. Neither can you in many other places. Does that make it not eid? Following Saudi Arabia makes sense. Seriously it is impossible to have different calendar days on the same day. One of them is talking rubbish and it doesnt make sense to cause huge confusion like this. Because it is a serious matter. Praying your Eid prayer on the wrong day can devoid yourself of the blessing. Same with praying night of Arafat duas when it isnt the night of arafat. We have satellite technology and precise calculations to tell us what date it is. Today for example is the 8th Zil Hajj in Mecca yet for the shia in england it is the 7th. This doesnt make sense im sorry. This happened at eidul fitr as well. The entire population in england celebrated eid unanimously on one dayon Sunday. And then i phoned the ahlulbayt centre here and they said eid was Monday. Why? Because although they saw the moon in Iran, they hadnt seen it clearly in 'parts of Europe' which is again laughable because it suggests 'parts of Europe' are on different days of Ramadhan etc. Literally NO ONE here at all celebrated it on Monday. In fact no one in the entire world did it on Monday. I celebrated it on Sunday with everyone else.

If it could become Jinnah's Pakistan, I would be the happiest person on earth. But that doesn't seem to be happening, there is almost a consensus on Pakistan being a bastion of Islam and Jihadists.

(salam) Ya Sunnis i am ready to admit that Shias martyred Imam Hussain (as) but can you reply me this simple question that How many hadiths were taken by your hadith scholars from 9 sons of Imam Hussain (as)? Please mention number of hadiths reported from each of those imams. I am not asking about hadiths reported from Ali (as), Hassan (as) or Hussain (as). I am asking those reported by the imams after them. Jaahil Zakir Naik i challenge you. You are just an idiot. Just tell me How it is possible that a nation who betrayed Imam Hussain (as) remained with his descendant Imams and the imams remained training them and teaching them while the nation which did not betrayed Imam Hussain (as) did not take hadiths from them. Factually you son of Muawvia (LA) your forefathers martyred Imam Hussain (as) and now burning in deepest hell. They will keep burning forever.

Imam Zain-al-abideen has a poem: ‘You disobey the God while claiming that you truly love Him, I swear by my life this is an ugly act. If you were truthful you would not have disobeyed Him, verily the true lover is obedient to His beloved. ’ ÊÚÕí ÇáÇáå æ ÇäÊ ÊÙåÑ ÍÈå åÐÇ áÚãÑí ÈÇáÝÚÇá ÞÈíÍ Çä ßäÊ ÕÇÏÞÇ áãÇ ÚÕíÊå Çä ÇáãÍÈ áãä ÇÍÈ ãØíÚ

If you happen to be a Muslim, you are badly stuck. The ideal of 'no compulsion in religion' doesn't work when you are a Muslim. It's good when you are not. Right?

The government is not going to put up with this terrorism anymore. They have booted terrorists out of Swat. Now the army is preparing to launch a full scale ground offensive in South Waziristan, another stronghold of Taliban. The Talibran have their supply networks stretching down to places in Southern Punjab, including D.G.Khan, Rajanpur, Bahawalpur etc. A clean up operation there is also much needed. This isn't going to go on forever. We have had enough of this in the last few years.

^male sheep. http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&um=1&sa=1&q=%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D8%A8%D8%B4&btnG=Search+images&aq=f&oq=&start=0

Awesome. How much have you paid?

Some areas are more dangerous than others just like you gave some examples. Big cities are at more risk. If you happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time, that will be the most dangerous place on the face of this earth for you. I wish safety to everybody.

If things do not settle, there is a considerable chance of this happening eventually. What is that? :unsure: Good point. The self-styled "fort of Islam", Pakistan, both its governments and people, are too concerned over what happens with other Muslim countries and support their causes unconditionally, sometimes even at the expense of Pakistan's own interests. No Arab state in return, including Iran, actively0 supports Pakistani point of view on Kashmir [not that they should support] but Pakistan goes head over heals when anything happens in any Arab/Muslim country. I believe we have to rearrange our list of priorities and first put our own house in order before getting worried about other countries in the region. No. Iranians cannot be blamed in the case of what happened to A.Q.Khan. There is no chance that Pakistan is going to offer any military help to Iran if the latter gets attacked by the US - and it shouldn't. Here is a suggestion: Relax and do not worry what others say about Pakistan. Don't get emotional.

It is good you mention the highlighted cos I think it is naive to assume that PAF doesn't know about the violations of Pakistani air space and therefore can't stop foreign interference/drones. It is just that the government doesn't want to create new tensions with the US. The men in power cry foul over US drones publicly but I am sure there is a secret understanding which allows US to continue these attacks. What more, I read a news some time ago that some of the drones were sent from military bases within Pakistan, from Balochistan, perhaps the one near Jacobabad. The politicians are too afraid to admit active military alliance within our borders because it is evidently very unpopular among the people. Good man. You are always quick on technology. You are in Pakistan? It must be pirated. :P

I've heard of that too but I don't know how much of it is true? Windows 7 user ;) How is that?

The Indian media has hailed a ruling by a court ruling decriminalising homosexuality in the country. The ruling on Thursday overturns a 148-year-old colonial law which describes a same-sex relationship as an "unnatural offence". Homosexual acts were punishable by a 10-year prison sentence. Many people in India regard same-sex relationships as illegitimate. Rights groups have long argued that the law contravened human rights. India's Gay Day, headlined The Times Of India "..this historic ruling could act as a catalyst, encouraging our legislators to shed their blinkers and take a more progressive view on the issue," the newspaper said. "In 21st century India, it is perverse to penalise adults for their sexual choices." ...... ..... Section 377 of the colonial Indian Penal Code, defines homosexual acts as "carnal intercourse against the order of nature" and made them illegal. "It took 150 years for us India - and 42 years after Britain itself had made homosexuality legal- to figure out that we didn't have a problem with same-sex relationships," Hindustan Times said. The newspaper said "homosexuality and heterosexuality aren't divisive, emotive issues in Middle India - sexuality is, especially when it concerns women and their perceived behaviour in a still male-dominated, anti-woman society at large". READ FULL REPORT HERE WATCH SHORT VIDEO ON BBC URDU HERE

Even small and unimportant towns Like Mian Channu are not safe. A blast kills 9 there. I wonder if it was a Shia madrassah. http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/2009/07..._blast_rr.shtml

^ When did you do the head count?

If I restrict myself to big and important cities only, I can't single out one. All major cities have been targeted by the militant vermin in recent past. With hindsight, I can say that Peshawar is the most dangerous, or maybe Karachi, because it saw a lot of strikes, killings, ethnic tensions and police action lately. But Islamabad and Lahore haven't been spared either. Just see the number of blasts that have taken place in those two cities. So I concur with Ibrahim that a city is the most dangerous if you happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

It's about India. :dry:

(bismillah) Al-Furqan [25:63] And the servants of (Allah) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, "Peace!" PEACE!