Shia Hadith Vs. Sunni Hadith - Critical Differences In Hadith Compilation
This discussion examines a fundamental misunderstanding in modern Shia scholarly approaches to hadith verification. The central argument is that Shia scholars have inappropriately adopted Sunni methodologies for hadith authentication, despite the radically different nature of hadith compilation between the two traditions.
The Shia tradition benefits from several unique advantages: First, unlike Sunnis who lost direct connection to Prophetic knowledge after Muhammad's death, Shias maintained connection through the Imams for nearly 300 years. Second, during political transitions between Umayyad and Abbasid rule, Imams Baqir and Sadiq established a systematic documentation approach, encouraging written preservation rather than oral transmission.
Crucially, Shia hadith represents written transmission of documented works (usul), not oral chains. The ijaza system ensured authenticated book transmission with proper authorization, making Sunni-style isnad analysis largely irrelevant for Shia texts. Applying Sunni verification methods to Shia hadith creates a category error - using tools designed for oral transmission on written documentation.
The major Shia compilations (Kutub al-Arba'a) represent methodically organized versions of original usul, collected through careful verification processes by scholars like Kulayni and Saduq. The Twelfth Imam himself directed followers not to doubt what trustworthy narrators convey.
By adopting Sunni authentication methods, modern Usuli scholars have created a crisis of confidence in Shia heritage. The solution requires returning to the Imams' own verification principles and recognizing the unique strength and reliability of the Shia hadith tradition on its own terms.

This video podcast series is an in-depth review of the book: "The Divine Guide in Early Shi'ism" by Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi.
Video podcast series: The Divine Guide In Early Shia Islam
A brief description of the book:
The Divine Guide by Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi, is a groundbreaking academic work that explores the early development of Twelver Shia Islam, particularly focusing on the concept of the Imam in early Shia doctrine. Published originally in French, this work examines the esoteric teachings and spiritual dimensions of Imamology as understood by the earliest Shia scholars and traditionists.
The book primarily analyzes the role of the Imam as a divine guide and repository of sacred knowledge, drawing from early Shia hadith collections like Al-Kafi and Basa'ir al-Darajat. Amir-Moezzi demonstrates how early Shia thought viewed the Imam not just as a political leader, but as a cosmic necessity and spiritual intermediary between God and humanity. The Imam is presented as possessing divine light, supernatural knowledge, and the ability to interpret both the apparent and hidden meanings of religious texts.
A key argument of the book is that early Shiism had a deeply mystical and esoteric character that was later downplayed in favor of more rational theological approaches. The author shows how the original conception of the Imam included beliefs about their supernatural origins, divine appointment, and extraordinary powers - elements that were later rationalized or reinterpreted by later Shia scholars.
This work is particularly significant because it challenges the common view that early Shiism was primarily a political movement. Instead, it reveals the rich spiritual and mystical dimensions of early Shia thought, showing how the doctrine of Imamate was fundamentally tied to concepts of divine guidance, sacred knowledge, and spiritual illumination.
For students of Islamic history and theology, this book provides crucial insights into the development of Shia thought and the original understanding of the Imamate, making it an essential reference for understanding the spiritual foundations of Shiism.

Final part of my book, narrated by my dear friend, Mrs. Solmaz Rezayi
Music: Below the Horizon by Guy Sweens
Images created by ai bing image generator

Idris or Hermes? Exploring the Truth Behind the Legends
 هرمس تریسمِگیستوس معروف به هرمس الهرامسه کیست و چه ارتباطی میان او و حضرت ادریس (ع)، مرکوری و هرمس (از خدایان رومی و یونانی) و تحوت (خدای خرد در مصر باستان) وجود دارد؟ لوح زمرد چیست و چه میگوید؟ نخستین اهرام مصر توسط چه کسانی ساخته شدند و هدف از احداث آنها چه بود؟ آیا میتوانیم اطمینان داشته باشیم که قدیمی‌ترین اهرام سرزمین مصر توسط فراعنه بنا شدند؟
در این کتاب مطالبی را میخوانید که احتمالا برایتان تازگی دارد و پیشتر چیزی درباره آن نشنیده بودید. این مطالب عمدتا بر پایه کهن‌ترین منابع موجود که تالیف حکما و تاریخ‌نگاران مصری، یونانی، رومی، فینیقی، عرب، ایرانی و ... هستند، نگاشته شده‌اند. شاید پس از مطالعه این کتاب به این نتیجه برسید که پیامبران الهی، صرفا رهبران دینی مردم نبوده‌اند بلکه پیشگامان آموزش علم و حکمت و صنعت نیز بوده و نقش بسزایی در پیشبرد تمدن بشری داشته‌اند.

[Headings added 25 August 2025]

Introduction
There are arguments given by atheists challenging religious beliefs, and resulting practices that science does not support and which atheists argue should be abandoned by believers.
In this essay, I want to look at one example, where I think science is catching up with religion.
Happiness and the story of sugar
The industrial farming of sugar by Europeans in the West Indies, starting from the eighteenth century, is a good example of improving the supply of something that was supposed to vastly improve the pleasure of significant numbers of people at little cost. Almost suddenly the population of Europe discovered how to sweeten their diet. It took many many decades to realise that, of course, there were health costs and the realisation that industrial production on this scale and such limited cost required unacceptable human sacrifices as well.
The story for tobacco is a similar one.
Industrial production of food
Relatively more recently we've cracked the problem of industrially producing foods that were hitherto a luxury, such as chicken. But at least in this instance, the knowledge that the welfare costs borne by the chicken are unacceptable has come much more quickly than was the case for the slaves producing sugar and tobacco. In the case of the chicken attempts to improve the situation have happened more quickly as well.
The costs of industrialising production
We could list similar examples wherever man has acquired the technical knowledge that the hitherto expensive and difficult to manufacture could be made more cheaply in many instances this has come with a high cost to the human workers and animals involved in the production process.
But what is also noteworthy is that in many instances there has also been an unacceptable cost to the consumers who had originally assumed that a source of cheap pleasure had been discovered. A high sugar diet kills, low tobacco consumption kills and meat produced with little regard for animal welfare is not healthy either.
Read across for entertainment
What are the implications for today? Just as improvements in shipping, various agricultural practices and refining processes allowed us to produce sugar, so various technical advances have allowed us to produce far higher and better 'quality' levels of entertainment for far lower cost than was previously ever the case. In a matter of 50 year years, television has gone from something that could only realistically be watched for a few hours a day to something that can deliver a variety of entertainment 24 hours a day, seven days a week for entire years. And we now realise the health costs of a sedentary lifestyle.
But television also provides a good example of another risk that we are facing. The passive consumption of such entertainment nevertheless requires on the part of those being entertained some variety and on the part of those providing the entertainment there are advantages to reducing costs.
Adding to this toxic mix is the realisation that although the original goals for entertainment may have been lofty, without a strict ethical and moral framework imposing restrictions the result is all too easily entertainment that appeals to the lowest common denominator and that is sex and we have the 21st century equivalent of sugar, which is pornography.
Forms of entertainment, variety and mass experimentation
There is a growing, but still limited, understanding of the effect of the consumption of porn, and in the case of children the science is still in its infancy. Also, the longer-term effects on entire societies are not well understood, because the experiments necessary to understand the impact are still being done, in real-time on actual societies.
We are the guinea pigs because even people who do not consciously watch pornography are affected by people who do. The producer who makes a 'racy' drama for mass family audiences, could likely have had their ideas on what is acceptable shaped by their consumption of pornography. Gender relations, how men interact with women are all influenced by the communications to which they are exposed. The impact can therefore be in terms of how ubiquitous (pervasive) the impact is and also how insidious. Without stretching the point, the parallel with sugar is again interesting. Sugar consumption has become pervasive, we consume it even when we do not think we are, it is present in all manner of unlikely foods. Because, once marketers recognised our preference - including it in a wide range of offerings (in order to be customer focused) was the normal reaction of the market place.
Like sugar, pornography held the promise of unlimited pleasure, at very low cost.
Religious edicts and the lack of supporting empirical evidence
Religious and moral objectors appear to have little science to back their reservations. If you combine the morality of the market with the assumption that anything adults (in this case the actors who perform) do out of their free will, for a fair wage, is acceptable, then there appear to be no restrictions at all as to what is done. Porn becomes a guilt-free pleasure.
Initially, with what vestige of moral scruples remained, there were restrictions on supply and limitations on what children could watch. But in the case of children the advance of technology has meant that those restrictions have become difficult to enforce and regarding moral limits these have become more lax, as each passing generation has become more liberal in its tolerance of what is acceptable, having been conditioned by what they were exposed to.
Lessons from other industries
But just as our experience with sugar and tobacco and other products has shown us over the past few centuries, our being able to deliver pleasure at an industrial scale for low cost for the 'benefit' of large sections of society never ends well.
At least with these offerings, the long-term costs paid by consumers were purely physical, with more recent products subject to industrialisation the costs are more likely to be psychological.
An Islamic society that adheres to its principles would likely not have affected the growth trajectories of sugar and tobacco, other than perhaps slow down their initial establishment.
The fair treatment of slaves would have imposed higher costs. However, in the case of pornography restrictions on what people are allowed to see of others should provide clear limits as to what can and cannot be consumed. Bear in mind that Islam does not have some vague restrictions on what people can and cannot see, the restrictions are explicit and formalised.
This approach has a clear advantage when it comes to something like porn, whose non-religious definition has clearly changed over the years. What is now healthy family viewing was porn for previous generations. This is a product whose very consumption affects how we define it. Yet the Islamic injunction is very clear and is intended to hold for all time.
This is a clear case of where science catches up with orthodox, traditional religious morality.
https://contemporaniablog.wordpress.com/2016/10/12/unlimited-pleasure/#more-535

Introduction
I asked the reasoning version of ChatGPT the following two questions (in the quotation box).
The answer to the latter question is presented below.
This issue is one of many that contrasts the social and economic implications of Islamic injunctions vs. those of other religions. In summary, the Islamic notion of dogs as religiously impure focuses Muslims' attention towards other humans for social and emotional support. I believe that is superior to a society that redirects such attention to animals. 
@Northwest

TLDR
The proposition that an Islamic-oriented society—with religious reservations about dog ownership—places a greater emphasis on human-human relationships than dog-friendly societies finds support in cross-cultural consumer research and Islamic marketing scholarship. The religious designation of dogs as impure curtails intensive anthropomorphic tendencies, leading consumers in Islamic contexts to channel social and emotional resources primarily toward family, friends, and community members. Consequently, marketing strategies and consumer behaviors in these contexts underscore interpersonal bonds, charitable obligations, and group cohesion rather than pet-centric consumption.
By contrast, in societies that celebrate and encourage dog ownership, anthropomorphism significantly shapes consumer behavior, often shifting a portion of emotional and financial resources to human-dog relationships. These differences highlight how deeply cultural and religious frameworks influence the scope and nature of anthropomorphism, delineating the ways consumers allocate their relational capital between human and non-human companions.
 

1. Anthropomorphism and Relationship Substitution
Pet Humanization in Secular or Dog-Friendly Societies
In many societies that promote dog ownership, there is a pronounced tendency to anthropomorphize pets—assigning them human-like traits and emotions (Epley, Waytz, & Cacioppo, 2007; Journal of Consumer Research). Pet ownership often translates into emotional bonds that parallel, or sometimes even substitute for, human-human connections. For example, Belk (2013; Journal of Consumer Research) discusses how dogs are seen as “extensions of the self,” enabling individuals to fulfill social, emotional, and identity-related needs. In marketing contexts, this humanization of pets manifests as substantial expenditures (e.g., premium dog food, grooming, dog-friendly travel) and even the creation of communities around pet ownership.
Religious and Cultural Boundaries in Islamic Contexts
Islamic teachings often classify dogs as najis (impure), especially concerning their saliva, leading to social and religious restrictions on close physical interactions (Alhussain & Thakur, 2019; Journal of Islamic Marketing, Emerald). While not all Muslims adhere to the same level of strictness (diversity exists across regions and jurisprudential schools), in many contexts, dog ownership is minimized or relegated to functional roles (e.g., guard dogs, herding), reducing the emotional human-pet bond. Anthropomorphism, thus, is largely muted. This diminished emphasis on dog-human relationships can redirect emotional and social energies toward more robust human-human ties, as there is little inclination to invest in a being commonly viewed as “impure” within a domestic setting (Ibrahim & Al Kamdah, 2020; Journal of Islamic Marketing).
2. Emphasis on Human-Human Relations
Communal and Familial Bonds
Several studies on Muslim consumer behavior note a pronounced focus on family cohesion, kinship obligations, and community welfare (Wilson & Grant, 2013; Journal of Islamic Marketing; Emerald). This cultural emphasis is partly derived from key Islamic principles like ummah (community) and zakat (almsgiving). Since dogs are not typically incorporated as household companions, the emotional investment that might be directed toward pets is instead often channeled into human relationships—strengthening family ties, neighborhood communities, and broader social networks. Social gatherings, frequent family visits, and kin-based reciprocity form the core of daily life (Jafari & Goulding, 2008; Consumption, Markets & Culture, Taylor & Francis).
Social Interaction Rituals
Societies that discourage dog ownership frequently invest in elaborate human-centric rituals: communal prayers, frequent visits to relatives, large-scale cultural festivals such as Eid, and extended family gatherings (Essoo & Dibb, 2004; European Journal of Marketing). These rituals encourage sustained human-human interaction. By contrast, in dog-friendly contexts, social rituals often include pet-oriented activities—visits to dog parks, “puppy parties,” or dog adoption events—showcasing how some communal bonding can revolve around animals rather than solely around human interaction (Holbrook & Woodside, 2008; Journal of Business Research, Elsevier).
3. Consumer Behavior Implications
Expenditure Flows
Dog-Friendly Societies: A significant proportion of household expenditures—such as premium dog food, veterinary care, and leisure activities—can be allocated to pets (Hirschman, 1994; Journal of Consumer Research). Over time, this fosters an entire “pet economy,” often reinforced by emotional satisfaction drawn from anthropomorphized relationships with dogs.
Islamic-Oriented Societies: Due to religious constraints, there is limited demand for dog-centric products and services. Instead, expenditures that might have been channeled toward pet care could be redirected toward communal obligations (e.g., charitable giving, gifts to family, social events). The consumer culture thus prioritizes human welfare, strengthening what might be viewed as social capital within human networks (Jafari & Goulding, 2008; Consumption, Markets & Culture).
Marketplace Signaling and Sociocultural Values
Signaling Communal Responsibility: Consumers in Islamic contexts may signal piety and communal commitment through active participation in social events or charitable acts, reflecting a cultural script that values direct human welfare (Wilson & Grant, 2013; Journal of Islamic Marketing).
Signaling Affection for Pets: In Western or dog-friendly contexts, owning a pampered dog can signal care, empathy, and a nurturing personality, reinforcing a sense of belonging in communities of pet lovers (Belk, 1988; Journal of Consumer Research). Marketers leverage anthropomorphism in advertising, depicting dogs as “family members” to appeal to consumers’ emotional investment in pets (Waytz, Cacioppo, & Epley, 2010; Trends in Cognitive Sciences).
4. Societal and Cultural Outcomes
Stronger Intra-Human Bonds in Islamic Contexts
The proposition that Islamic-oriented societies have a stronger emphasis on human-human relationships can be understood through the lens of “resource allocation” in consumer behavior. With limited scope for dog-human emotional or social investment, individuals are more inclined to strengthen kin networks, community relations, and collective identity (Ibrahim & Al Kamdah, 2020). This focus on human-centered relationships is further reinforced by religious teachings promoting empathy, community service, and direct human engagement over companionship with creatures deemed ritually impure (Alhussain & Thakur, 2019).
Diverse Relationship Portfolios in Dog-Friendly Societies
In societies where dogs occupy central roles in households, individuals often have “relationship portfolios” that include significant non-human elements (Belk, 2013). Emotional fulfillment, social activities, and even identity expression can revolve around pet ownership, potentially substituting or complementing human-human connections. While this can enrich daily life for pet owners, critics argue it may diminish time and investment in broader community involvement (Holbrook & Woodside, 2008; Hirschman, 1994).
 
Key References
Alhussain, T., & Thakur, R. (2019). Religious beliefs and consumer behavior: A conceptual framework and research propositions. Journal of Islamic Marketing, 10(3), 948–962. [Emerald]
Belk, R. W. (1988). Possessions and the extended self. Journal of Consumer Research, 15(2), 139–168. [University of Chicago Press]
Belk, R. W. (2013). Extended self in a digital world. Journal of Consumer Research, 40(3), 477–500. [University of Chicago Press]
Epley, N., Waytz, A., & Cacioppo, J. T. (2007). On seeing human: A three-factor theory of anthropomorphism. Psychological Review, 114(4), 864–886. [APA; frequently cited in marketing and consumer research]
Essoo, N., & Dibb, S. (2004). Religious influences on shopping behaviour: An exploratory study. European Journal of Marketing, 38(5/6), 536–553. [Emerald]
Hirschman, E. C. (1994). Consumers and their animal companions. Journal of Consumer Research, 20(4), 616–631. [Oxford University Press for the Association for Consumer Research]
Holbrook, M. B., & Woodside, A. G. (2008). Animal companions, consumption experiences, and the marketing of pets: Transcending boundaries in the animal-human distinction. Journal of Business Research, 61(5), 377–381. [Elsevier]
Ibrahim, B., & Al Kamdah, A. (2020). Exploring the Islamic marketing ethics from macro and consumer behaviour perspectives. Journal of Islamic Marketing, 11(5), 1295–1312. [Emerald]
Jafari, A., & Goulding, C. (2008). “We are not terrorists!” UK-based Iranians, consumption practices and the ‘torn self.’ Consumption, Markets & Culture, 11(2), 73–91. [Taylor & Francis]
Wilson, J. A. J., & Grant, J. (2013). Islamic marketing – A challenger to the classical marketing canon? Journal of Islamic Marketing, 4(1), 7–21. [Emerald]
Waytz, A., Cacioppo, J. T., & Epley, N. (2010). Who sees human? The stability and importance of individual differences in anthropomorphism. Perspectives on Psychological Science, 5(3), 219–232. [SAGE, frequently cited in consumer research]
These references illustrate how socio-religious norms and cultural frameworks (particularly in Islamic contexts) shape the nature and direction of anthropomorphism and, consequently, influence where consumers channel their social and emotional investment—ultimately affirming the proposition that Islamic-oriented societies often place a stronger emphasis on human-human relations.

Summary
Ships are an interesting phenomenon that are referred to in the Qur'an on a number of different occasions. For the Arabs at the time of revelation they would likely have been considered as an object that people made and used. The Qur'an points out that the source of the innovation is God and that they are an example of His Mercy. My belief as a layperson is that this supports the contention that Islam is supportive of product innovation. Once we start talking about ships an associated construct - 'navigation' immediately arises. This is interesting because God explicitly refers to the tools necessary for navigation (stars) also being an example of His mercy. So not only do we have a product that He created for us, but also the knowledge and supporting resources necessary to use it. Worth noting is that these resources were created millions/billions of years and light years apart. The words used for knowledge also subsume notions of both navigation in a physical sense and also a metaphorical or spiritual sense. Finally all of this points towards our dominion over nature and the vocabulary used for this involves man needing to be grateful to God for this provision. Introduction
This analysis originally started off as a reply to @Northwest and, as I dug deeper, opened up new and interesting areas of enquiry. So the first post below is the reply to Northwest and it should make sense even when taken out of the thread's context, though I also provide some background.
The replies to the first post (below) then go deeper into the issue of knowledge/epistemology and naval navigation - fascinatingly probing the links between those concepts yields results. 
Background
The thread in which the following material appeared was to do with technological innovation. My contention was that the Qur'an not only accepts this, but puts it in a positive light. In order to support this claim I made reference to the Qur'anic story about Prophet Daoud's (عليه السلام). chain mail. I also pointed out how the Qur'an points out the moral/ethical burden of such technological development.
But this example was considered too specific and singular to be adequate. My challenge therefore was to come up with references to technology and innovation in the Qur'an that were more widespread and hence the material that appears below.
The initial post
This is my answer to my interlocutor after they challenged me about the specificity of my reference to Prophet Daoud's chainmail.
You've stimulated me to bring together something which I had noticed but never addressed or thought to bring together - the numerous but disparate references to ships in the Qur'an. As per my usual format of showing conversations with chatGPT, my prompts are in bold red and its answers are in regular black text.
I think it's reasonable to argue that ships per se are not the kind of innovation that Prophet's Yusuf and Nut ((عليه السلام).) brought i.e. to avert calamity and nor are they innovations for use at a specific point in time which applies to those two Prophets' innovations and that of Prophet Daoud ((عليه السلام).)
Rather the creation of ships is not tied to a specific time or situation nor indeed is it specifically tied to human survival in an acute sense.
More than this, of all the innovations we could be talking about, ships are actually quite profound in terms of the social and economic impact they have, e.g. in terms of migratory flows of people, encouragement of specialisation in terms of means of production and so on. Obviously, they also present challenges in terms of movements of goods that have cultural baggage attached and the obvious impact of international competition and so on.
My inference here is as a layperson and not a theologian. Still, if there is one innovation that points to Divine encouragement of human societal sophistication and complexity, this is it.
What are all references in the Qur'an to ships?
In a material sense ships are the product of human innovation, but clearly that human inspiration is God-given and as the Qur'an says it's a sign of His mercy and something which enables us to prevail over nature.
1. Surah Al-Baqarah (2:164): 
    - "Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth, the alternation of the night and the day, the [great] ships which sail through the sea with that which benefits people, and what Allah has sent down from the heavens of rain, giving life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness and dispersing therein every [kind of] moving creature, and [His] directing of the winds and the clouds controlled between the heaven and the earth are signs for a people who use reason."
2. Surah Ya-Sin (36:41-42):
    - "And a sign for them is that We carried their forefathers in a laden ship. And We created for them from the likes of it that which they ride."
3. Surah Az-Zukhruf (43:12-14):
    - "And who created the species, all of them, and has made for you of ships and animals those which you mount. That you may settle yourselves upon their backs and then remember the favor of your Lord when you have settled upon them and say. 'Exalted is He who has subjected this to us, and we could not have [otherwise] subdued it.'"
4. Surah Al-Jathiya (45:12):
    - "Allah is the one who subjected the sea for you so that ships may sail through it by His command and that you may seek of His bounty, and perhaps you will be grateful."
5. Surah Al-Isra (17:66):
    - "Your Lord is the One who drives for you the ship in the sea so that you may seek of His bounty. He is indeed Most Merciful to you."
6. Surah An-Nahl (16:14):
    - "And it is He who subjected the sea for you to eat from it tender meat and to extract from it ornaments which you wear. And you see the ships plowing through it, and [He subjected it] that you may seek of His bounty, and perhaps you will be grateful."
7. Surah Ar-Rum (30:46):
    - "And among His Signs is this, that He sends the winds as glad tidings, giving you a taste of His Mercy, and that the ships may sail by His Command and that you may seek of His Bounty, in order that you may be thankful."
8. Surah Al-Furqan (25:53):
    - "And it is He who has released [simultaneously] the two seas, one fresh and sweet and one salty and bitter, and He placed between them a barrier and prohibiting partition."
Are there any roots that commonly appear in association with ships?
In the Qur'an, the primary root associated with ships is {ف-ل-ك} (F-L-K). The derived word "فُلْك" (fulk) specifically means "ship" or "vessel." 
Let's look at the occurrences of this root in the context of ships and check for any other roots that consistently appear close to it:
1. Surah Al-Baqarah (2:164): The verse mentions ships as "الْفُلْكِ الَّتِي تَجْرِي فِي الْبَحْرِ" (the ships which sail through the sea).
2. Surah Ya-Sin (36:41-42): The term "الْفُلْكِ" (the ships) is used to signify the ships that sail, carrying their passengers.
3. Surah Al-Isra (17:66): The verse mentions "الْفُلْكِ" (the ship) that sails in the sea.
4. Surah An-Nahl (16:14): Here, the ships are referred to as "الْفُلْكَ" (the ships) that move through the sea.
5. Surah Ghafir (40:79-80): The verses mention "الْفُلْكِ" (the ships) as a means of transport on both land (referring to animals) and sea.
6. Surah Ash-Shura (42:32-33): Ships, "الْفُلْكِ", are mentioned in the context of signs of God's power and mercy.
Looking at these verses and their contexts, ships (fulk) are often mentioned in relation to:
- The sea {ب-ح-ر}  - B-H-R
- Sailing or traveling {ج-ر-ي} - J-R-Y
- Signs of God's mercy and creation {آيات} - Ā-Y-T
Thus, while the primary root associated with ships is {ف-ل-ك} (F-L-K), it frequently appears in the context of the sea, travel, and divine signs.
Going back to your preceding answer, for each instance of the occurrence of f-l-k can you tabulate where a-y-t appears please?