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In the Name of God بسم الله
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A ShiaChat Reunion?


:salam:

As the school-term comes to an end, and there was some time that I could spare for my self, I've thought a lot about how my views on life, religion, man's relationship with God, and the world around me, have changed over the years. This is going to be a pretty random rant - but I guess that is what blogs are for :confused:.

As of now, it has been 4 years since I moved to the seminary in Qom, and while there are many brothers and sisters here who spent many years on ShiaChat, many of them have either asked for their accounts to be deleted, with all of their posts, or have completely abandoned the forum all together or visit once in a while. I'm one of the handful of those who have not asked for my account to be deleted. All my posts from my early teenage years to now mid and late-20s are there. Personally, I never felt I had anything to hide - my posts are pretty much who I am. One can clearly see the early phase of an excited teenager learning a thing or two about the religion, with very deep-rooted presumptions about life, to a hyper kid getting accustomed to a some-what celebrity status, loved & hated by so many, to then entering university life and maturing up (some may disagree :blush:), and eventually entering into the work-force, married, moving to a different country, kids etc. While browsing through my earliest posts back in 2004, I was really able to just reflect on not just how much I have changed, but even how much influence (positive or negative) people on this forum have had on me. Of course this was not happening in a vacuum. I was interacting with all sorts of people - albeit behind a screen. There are so many real names, user-names, and names that I don't even remember - all of them - that I can recall, and in hindsight, see how each and everyone of them played a role in the development of my ideas, the stances and decisions I made in life, the open-mindedness I developed, or even the doubts I may have developed over various issues, and the questions that would remain unanswered for months and years.

This is very obvious for me even while I study in the seminary. The questions I may ask, the extent of tolerance I may show, the critiques I may mention, the willingness to really question some of our "famous" theological or historical views - some of these things make other students and at times even teachers really uncomfortable. Nevertheless, I believe this is in part due to what transpired on this forum and I am happy for it. This forum was like a large community center. It wasn't a community center for a specific ethnicity, or a culture, or converts or a specific gender. This forum for a large part was a community for those who either didn't have access to a real community where they lived, or were not satisfied with the communities that they belonged to. I believe it represented quite accurately the state of the Shi'a (primarily in the West) for a large part. It collectively represented the views that persisted and continue to persist amongst the Shi'a. Unfortunately, it is this portion of the Shi'a populous that often gets unnoticed outside of virtual reality. The inability of those leading us (for the most part) to really dissect and decipher the state of an average Shi'a's mindset, has really been one of the major issues for our communities in the West. The ignorance towards the epistemological framework that an average Shi'a growing in the West acquires through the education system or simply by living there, the delusional presumption that somehow a sub-culture contained within the 4-walls of a building will be able to preserve itself and overcome a dominant culture outside, the satisfaction of merely entertaining the audience with shallow lectures & speeches - while not addressing important and crucial matters: the cure for all of this seems to be have been missing in the last few decades, primarily due to ignorance towards it.

On a rare encounter I may have with a lost-long SCer, Its interesting to see how many stayed religious as they were, or were irreligious and become religious, or remained irreligious, or how so many are now going through a faith crisis as they have grown and began questioning and pondering over life's crucial mysteries. 

Reflecting back on what views I held and what views I hold now, nostalgia overtook me and I started browsing through old posts, old pictures, audio and video files that I still have saved from a decade ago (had a seriously good laugh over some audio files of @SO SOLID SHIA I still have with me). It is really weird how all of a sudden around 2012/2013 the forum just died. As if everyone switched off their plugs and disappeared. People definitely have to move on with their lives, no doubt about that. Of course there were some people who left much earlier, but this sudden silence is really absurd and that it wasn't replaced with a new batch of talented, and educated individuals is really hard to explain.

Perhaps those members who are still lingering around from the early 2000s ( @Gypsy @DigitalUmmah @Darth Vader @Abbas. @Haji 2003 @Abu Hadi @Wise Muslim @Qa'im @notme) and are still in touch with those who have left, maybe they can work on a ShiaChat Reunion of some sort. Perhaps get in contact with old members and request them to make a moment's appearance and leave some remarks on what they are up to in life! What changes have taken place in your lives, in your views, in your lifestyle - if any? There were some members I had such a great time with, and it felt as if we would remain friends forever. It would be great to be able to reconnect with them.

@Baatil Ka Kaatil  @Matami-Shah @Zain @Hasnain @Abdulhujjah @Peer @fyst @Syedmed @Nida_e_Zahra @hmMm @SpIzo @venusian @sana_abbas @fatimak @HR @asifnaqvi @Bollywood_Hero @phoenix @blessing @zanyrulez @wilayah @Hajar @Zuljenah @LaYdee_110 @fadak_166 @raat ki rani @Friend of All @queenjafri @Simba @Path2Felicity @3ashiqat-Al-Batoul @-Enlightened @karateka @A follower @hameedeh @lethaldefense @kaaju barfi @Friend of All @Ya Aba 3abdillah ...there are dozens of other members if I keep going.

97 Comments


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  • Veteran Member
Ali_Hussain

Posted

6 minutes ago, hayaah said:

Hardly anyone uses facebook these days....

I suppose it depends, statistically, more people are logging into facebook than ever before.

I was basing my answer on having spoken to a brother who used to be very active here, I was trying to get him to come back, he said that he was happy on fb as Islamic pages were more active than sc.

  • Veteran Member
Ibn al-Hussain

Posted (edited)

37 minutes ago, Heavenly_Silk said:

Could it also be that most of the "popular" topics have been discussed repeatedly, people may feel like there is not much to contribute to anymore?

I don't think that is the case. Since I've come to the seminary, I realized that there are a plethora of topics that are being discussed or can be discussed, or a lot of new insight that can be shed on topics, even on previously discussed topics. Most of these discussions are taking place, but they never make their way into the Western world for various reasons. 

For example, the role of history in our understanding of jurisprudence and its application, the role of ethics and human rights in our application of Islamic law, the role of the intellect in our day to day life - how balanced do we have to be between using our intellect and relying on faith. These are topics that require some degree of knowledge - but previously we had a decent number of members who would have been able to engage in these discussions.

However other social and family related issues like role of women and men in a society and within a family (old topic, but a lot of new light can be shed here, given recent changes in society's understanding), dealing with domestic violence and abuse, the future of our children's education in the West, the doubts and challenges millennials are facing etc. there are all these issues that can and should be discussed with more innovative perceptions. Some of the blog posts Br. @Qa'im makes on his blog are of extreme importance today. They should perhaps be discussed further on the forums.

Obviously you also have the Qur'anic and Hadith related topics as well that never get old and there is always new developments happening there, but once again it just seems there are not enough people of caliber left to engage in these sort of discussions.

This has been my observation.

Wassalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain
  • Veteran Member
Hassan-

Posted

I've also noticed by browsing some of the old topics that there are many banned members with high post counts. I don't know what they did to get banned, but maybe limiting the ban to maybe 1 year so these people that were once active on SC aren't gone forever?

  • Moderators
notme

Posted

I do think the site went through a period of excessively heavy handed moderation and people got banned or left. I'm not in contact with anyone from the old times anymore, but I'd love to know how some of them are doing. 

ErikCartman

Posted

6 minutes ago, notme said:

I do think the site went through a period of excessively heavy handed moderation and people got banned or left. I'm not in contact with anyone from the old times anymore, but I'd love to know how some of them are doing. 

Amen. 

  • Forum Administrators
Reza

Posted

This site has been made great again through our combined efforts, as you can see. Look around you! 

  • Advanced Member
Muslimthought97

Posted

6 hours ago, hayaah said:

Hardly anyone uses facebook these days....

Every university student uses facebook, If you don't, I don't care you're not at university :D (Slight exaggeration)

guest050817

Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

That is part of the reason, however I believe that the forum died due to moderation issues, there were many, many occasion in which new members would come and ask a question only to have the thread locked and them to be told to just use the search engine. What did the mods think was going to happen? That kind of behaviour, first of all comes across as rude, and secondly doesn't allow the user to develop a taste for what this forum is supposed to be about.

There are of course other issues, such as facebook being such a popular platform.

We have got to make registering and posting questions easier on this board. In the past you could register without having such strict restrictions.

 

Edited by uponthesunnah
guest050817

Posted

I'm not entirely convinced forums are dead, given reddit, and other popular online forums. I think the problem we have is multifaceted, and there are many factors which users here have posted and are legitimate.

But at the same time, i see a very simple solution we can begin to work with:

1. Make it easier to register and post on shiachat. Remove as much red-tape as possible, while balancing user safety. I say many new users register, see the red tape, and just leave. 

2. Advertise the forum. Many people aren't on shiachat because there has not been any concerted effort to recruit members to the forum.

3. Be a little bit more lax about banning.

  • Forum Administrators
Qa'im

Posted

I think it's easier to register and participate than ever before. Now you can register through your FB account, and you no longer need 50 posts to use the chatroom or PM.

  • Veteran Member
The Green Knight

Posted

I remember back then we used to play some shooting game (was it Deus Ex?) with all SC teams. It was fun. I have been and still am the estranged uncle of SC. :D I have enjoyed my stay very much, being in touch with such fine people. I have also learnt a lot from SC. Sometimes I ask SC'ers for prayers when I find myself knees deep in poop and it works.

Perhaps one of the reasons why there are less posters of the intellectual kind is because of lack of serious and deep discussions about religious and social issues and therefore less opportunity to learn and share new things. Perhaps because nowadays people get offended more or feel violated and insulted when challenged? Or with age we feel more shy to discuss things. I don't know.

Anyway it is good to read from you brother. I also badly miss the old gang and brave souls like So Solid Shia who faced the fires of moderation defiantly till they got burnt. :D But in any case I think the need is to facilitate proper debates and discussions to provide content for the seeking minds because issues like moderation rules will always be all but imperfect.

  • Forum Administrators
Haji 2003

Posted (edited)

23 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

I believe that the forum died due to moderation issues, there were many, many occasion in which new members would come and ask a question only to have the thread locked and them to be told to just use the search engine.

1. In the introduction phase few people knew about the site and there were not many users

2. In the growth phase the topics were being discussed for the first time. So there was tons and tons of debate. Over time for each topic the number of new angles that could be covered was reduced. So the scope for debate and discussion was reduced also (see point 3).

2a. That scope would be reduced firstly because when people google a topic it's more likely to give them specific threads on shiachat that have covered it before. And they'd get their answer directly from an old thread.

2b. If they still persist in asking, as moderators it's our job to show them threads where there may already have been well-researched discussion. This is really important from a hygiene point of view.

3. For each topic as the scope for general and superficial debate is reduced, there remains scope for more detailed and in-depth discussion. But most laypeople do not have the knowledge (or inclination) for this because it is boring. People from seminaries could fill the gap, but they choose not to (see my final point).

Well-informed posters tend NOT to keep posting ad nauseam. And it's our job as moderators to refer people to those answers and ask them to come back if they have an angle that has not already been covered.

Someone seeking truth will understand the reasonableness of this approach. A troll will leave. Good.

There is a contradiction in your post. You say that people in the seminaries don't visit Shiachat and yet also criticise moderators for shutting down threads that are likely to be repetitive, trivial and/or titillating.

Surely the latter policies should attract the more serious sort of person who attends a seminary?

To be honest if there is a contingent of ex-Shiachatters in the seminaries, I am afraid their absence says more about them than it does about this site and it's not favourable.

Edited by Haji 2003

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  • Latest Blog Entries

         0 comments
      [updated in May 2023 to include the Nvidia example and refine the argument overall, updated August 2024 to include an assessment by the FRBNY and the quotation from Sashi Tharoor. Updated 14 Jan 2025 to include the example of RedNote].
       
      Summary
      When you are in a weak position, all the choices you have are bad ones. Your opponent who dominates you due to more and/or better resources will ultimately prevail. It may take some time for them to do so, but the fact that it will happen is a certainty. 
      To take one example, it has historically been easy to 'blame' the Palestinians and other indigenous groups for their loss of territory. Arguments typically run that if the Palestinians had done 'x' instead of 'y' they would now still be in control over larger portions of land than they currently have.
      Looking at another case, you really wonder whether there was ever any universe, for example, where the American Indians were not going to be wiped out by far superior numbers and technologies that their adversaries owned.
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      This experience should teach everyone that losers don't necessarily lose because they are feckless or stupid; rather, the cards may just be stacked against them.
      Alternatively, their adversary may just be in a historical sweet spot.
      Introduction
      I've always thought that since British Mandate the Palestinians have been in a no-win position. This has been due to their lack of military power and economic and political resources. If they accepted the offers the international community and the Israelis gave them, there would have been an incentive for the Israelis to take more land (if the Pals don't mind yielding some land, they might not mind yielding more), and if the Pals had resisted, that would also have given the Israelis a pretext to take more land (for defensive purposes), the latter has proven to be the case.
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      Nvidia
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      SWIFT - Russia
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         0 comments
      My prompt: Could it be proposed that for a theist an alien encounter can't possibly lead to a wipeout of the human race (unless the aliens themselves were theists). Whereas for an atheist this is a possibility?

       
      GPT Answer: This proposition could be framed as a hypothesis grounded in the fundamental differences between theistic and atheistic worldviews. Let's unpack this:
       
      ---
       
       Theistic Perspective:
      1. Belief in Divine Providence:
         - For many theists, the idea of humanity being wiped out by an alien encounter conflicts with their belief in divine oversight or purpose. In monotheistic traditions, God is often seen as a protector of humanity or as having a plan for human existence. For example:
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           - In Islam, humans are referred to as khalifa (stewards) of the Earth, suggesting divine purpose and responsibility.
       
      2. Aliens as Part of Creation:
         - A theist might argue that if aliens exist, they are part of God's creation and, thus, subject to the same divine laws and moral framework. If the aliens are intelligent, theists might believe they are bound by a moral order that prohibits the unjust destruction of humanity.
       
      3. Theistic Alien Possibility:
         - If the aliens themselves are theists or operate within a framework of moral understanding (e.g., recognizing a creator or higher order), this might align with the theist's worldview. In this scenario, the likelihood of the aliens obliterating humanity diminishes, as such action might conflict with divine principles of justice or mercy.
       
      4. Eschatology and Divine Endings:
         - In many theistic traditions, the end of humanity is often seen as part of a divine eschatological plan (e.g., the Apocalypse in Christianity, the Day of Judgment in Islam). Therefore, the idea of humanity being wiped out arbitrarily by aliens would contradict the divine script, unless it aligns with God's will.
       
      ---
       
       Atheistic Perspective:
      1. Absence of Divine Oversight:
         - Without belief in divine intervention or purpose, atheists are more likely to accept the possibility of humanity's extinction as a random or natural event. This could include scenarios such as:
           - An alien civilization vastly superior in technology choosing to eradicate humanity for resources, territorial expansion, or indifference to human existence.
           - Humanity's inherent vulnerability in a universe without a guiding or protective force.
       
      2. Naturalistic Assumptions:
         - Atheists tend to approach existence from a naturalistic or evolutionary perspective, where survival depends on human ingenuity, adaptability, and luck rather than divine protection. In this framework, the arrival of a technologically advanced alien race could pose an existential threat, akin to how colonial encounters on Earth have led to the decimation of less technologically advanced societies.
       
      3. Moral Relativity:
         - Unlike theists, who might assume a universal moral order governing alien behavior, atheists may see morality as a construct unique to human societies. This opens the possibility that aliens might not share human ethical frameworks, making the potential for destructive encounters more plausible.
       
      ---
       
       Key Implications:
      1. Worldview-Driven Responses:
         - A theist might view an alien encounter as part of God's plan, possibly even a test of faith, and would be more inclined to seek meaning or morality in the aliens' actions. 
         - An atheist, by contrast, might approach the encounter pragmatically, preparing for the possibility that the aliens have no moral obligation to humanity.
       
      2. Survival Scenarios:
         - For a theist, humanity’s destruction by aliens is only conceivable if it aligns with divine will. Otherwise, divine protection would prevail. The existence of the aliens themselves might even be interpreted as a sign of God’s creativity or the vastness of divine creation.
         - For an atheist, the survival of humanity would depend entirely on human effort, strategy, and the contingencies of the encounter.
       
      ---
       
       Counterarguments and Nuances:
      1. Theistic Flexibility:
         - Some theists might argue that even if humanity were wiped out, it wouldn't contradict their beliefs because God's plans are ultimately unknowable or transcend human understanding.
         - Similarly, not all atheists would assume aliens would necessarily be hostile, depending on assumptions about the aliens' evolutionary and cultural development.
       
      2. Common Ground:
         - Both worldviews might agree that the outcome of an alien encounter would largely depend on the nature of the aliens themselves—their level of aggression, resource needs, or capacity for empathy.
       
      ---
       
       Conclusion:
      The proposition holds as a conceptual framework: theists may find it difficult to reconcile the extinction of humanity by aliens with their theological beliefs unless the aliens themselves act within a divine framework. For atheists, the lack of divine oversight allows for a broader range of possibilities, including humanity’s potential destruction by aliens. This distinction highlights the contrasting existential assumptions underlying theistic and atheistic perspectives.
         5 comments
      I came across the following about the British poet Basil Bunting:
       
      https://academic.oup.com/res/article/74/315/389/7103434?login=false
       
      I pasted that into Chatgpt and asked, "Are there other people who simultaneously interacted with middle eastern culture while at the same time aiding Britain's colonial enterprise?"
       
      It came back with the following:

      Yes, several notable individuals interacted with Middle Eastern cultures while contributing to Britain's colonial enterprise. These figures often straddled roles as diplomats, intelligence officers, and scholars, blending cultural engagement with imperial objectives. Here are some key examples:
       
       1. T.E. Lawrence ("Lawrence of Arabia")
         - Role: British archaeologist, army officer, diplomat, and writer.
         - Activities: Lawrence became famous for his role in the Arab Revolt (1916–1918) during World War I, where he supported Arab nationalist aspirations against Ottoman rule while advancing British strategic interests.
         - Cultural Interaction: He immersed himself in Arab culture, spoke Arabic fluently, and documented his experiences in Seven Pillars of Wisdom. However, his activities also reflected Britain's geopolitical ambitions in the Middle East.
       
       2. Gertrude Bell
         - Role: British writer, archaeologist, and political officer.
         - Activities: Bell played a critical role in the establishment of modern Iraq, advising British colonial authorities and helping to draw its borders after World War I.
         - Cultural Interaction: She was deeply involved in Arab culture, learned Arabic and Persian, and became an expert on Middle Eastern history and politics. Despite her cultural respect, her work was integral to British colonial administration.
       
       3. Harry St. John Philby
         - Role: British intelligence officer, Arabist, and explorer.
         - Activities: Philby worked in British intelligence and later became a political advisor to Ibn Saud, the founder of Saudi Arabia. He was instrumental in British relations with the Arabian Peninsula.
         - Cultural Interaction: Philby converted to Islam and adopted many aspects of Arab culture. However, his role also involved facilitating British interests in the region, particularly concerning oil.
       
       4. Charles Montagu Doughty
         - Role: British explorer and writer.
         - Activities: Although not an intelligence officer, Doughty traveled extensively in Arabia and wrote Travels in Arabia Deserta, a detailed ethnographic account that informed British perspectives on the region.
         - Cultural Interaction: He engaged deeply with Arab culture but his works also contributed to the British understanding and strategic engagement with the region.
       
       5. Wilfred Thesiger
         - Role: British explorer, writer, and military officer.
         - Activities: Thesiger served in the Sudan Political Service and during World War II in the Middle East. He later traveled extensively through the Arabian Peninsula.
         - Cultural Interaction: He celebrated Bedouin culture in his writings, notably Arabian Sands, but his presence often aligned with British imperial objectives.
       
       Analysis of Dual Roles
      These figures often operated in liminal spaces where cultural appreciation coexisted with imperial agendas. They frequently acted as intermediaries, using their cultural knowledge to advance Britain's geopolitical strategies while documenting and sometimes romanticizing the cultures they encountered.
       
      Would you like further detail on any of these individuals or their contributions to Britain's colonial enterprise?
       
         6 comments
      Background
      In the following blog post, I argued that minorities can economically outperform majorities in a society and that this may require actions to protect the interests of the majority. Overall this discussion picks up issues around Islamic regulations around the rights and obligations of minority communities in an Islamic society, where minorities are referred to as 'dhimmis'.
      In contemporary Western society where there is an overarching interest in 'equality' these regulations may be perceived as discriminatory and wrong. What I did in the post below was to argue that they help protect the interests of the majority which may otherwise be compromised and ultimately lead to conflict.
       
       
      In this post what I want to do is look at the same issues from another perspective. I wanted to see whether an AI LLM when given specific starting economic and social conditions within a society would come to the same endpoint as I had done in my post above.
      I gave gpt4 the following prompt:
      Imagine you are a social network theory expert. Assume that there is a society composed of individuals with a range of different types of ties. All individuals in that society are equal in terms of economic welfare. Within that society there is a cluster of people with a shared culture who have denser ties with each other than with others in the society. Please map out over time what the implications of those social network characteristics will be in terms of e.g. economic welfare.
      The instruction should be readily understandable to the layperson, except for one term, gpt4 gives the following explanation of social network density:
      In the context of this conversation, when we refer to a cluster of people with denser ties, we mean that within this group, a larger proportion of all possible connections between individuals actually exist. This implies that individuals in this cluster are more interconnected and have more relationships with each other than with people outside the cluster.
      Having explained that term we can move onto what GPT4 sees as the trajectory for that society. Note that for my part the effort has been to give GPT4 a prompt that was as neutral as possible to avoid it coming up with a scenario that arose because of a bias in the prompt.
      GPT4's longitudinal analysis - the following text is from GPT4
      In the context of social network theory, the structure and nature of social ties can significantly impact various outcomes, including economic welfare. Here are some potential implications over time:
      Information and Knowledge Dissemination: In a closely-knit cluster where social ties are denser, information and knowledge are likely to disseminate faster among members. This can lead to quicker adoption of beneficial practices, faster problem-solving, and greater innovation. Over time, this may result in economic advantages for the cluster. Resource Mobilization: Dense social networks can facilitate more effective resource mobilization. This could take the form of group savings, joint investments, and collective bargaining power in the marketplace. Over time, this could enhance the economic welfare of the group. Social Capital: The dense ties within the cluster can form a significant amount of social capital, which can be leveraged for economic gain. For example, trust and reciprocity within the group can reduce transaction costs and facilitate economic activities that might be more difficult or costly in a less cohesive network. Inequality: While these dense ties can lead to economic advantages for the cluster, they may also exacerbate inequality between the cluster and the rest of society. The benefits from information dissemination, resource mobilization, and social capital may not flow as easily to individuals outside the cluster. Over time, this could lead to growing economic disparities within the society, even if all individuals started at the same level of economic welfare. Fragmentation and Polarization: Over time, the strong in-group ties and weak out-group ties might lead to fragmentation and polarization within the society. This could result in a society where the closely-knit cluster becomes economically dominant, while the rest of the society is left behind. This could lead to social tensions and conflict. Resilience and Vulnerability: While the dense network within the cluster might provide resilience in the face of external shocks (due to the ability to mobilize resources and support each other), it might also lead to increased vulnerability. If the cluster is hit by a negative event (such as a financial crisis or a disease outbreak), the dense ties could facilitate the rapid spread of the negative effects. It's important to note that these are potential implications and the actual outcomes can be influenced by a variety of factors, including the nature of the ties (whether they are positive or negative, strong or weak), the specific cultural characteristics of the cluster, the wider socio-economic and political context, and the ways in which individuals within the network and the society as a whole adapt and respond to changes over time.
      Conclusion
      I think this elaborates and to a large extent validates the points I was making in the earlier blog post.
      To reiterate the overall issue. When we discuss majorities and minorities in the context of particular groups of people in specific societies the underlying social, anthropological and economic arguments are subsumed within accusations of being prejudiced against one group or another. So my initial post does not mention any groups, countries or societies, we are simply discussing the relationships between various social variables and how they evolve over time.
      Based on the above thought experiment with gpt4, I am still inclined to think that Islam is 'onto something' when it addresses the dhimmi issue.
       
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