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In the Name of God بسم الله

Imamology

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Hamza Yusuf and Black Lives Matter


Qa'im

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As a Muslim Canadian outsider, the U.S's race problem is blaring and obvious to me whenever I visit. Even in the more liberal states, whites and blacks live in separate neighbourhoods, and the black neighbouroods are poorer and not looked after by the city. Whites and blacks have very different jobs and roles in society.

After over 300 years of slavery, 99 years of segregation, and 52 years of tumultuous race relations, the race issue still dominates public discourse in America. While most of the world has normalized relations with the descendants of former slaves, the Trans-Atlantic slave trade in America was unique in its shear brutality. African Americans were stripped of their names, languages, cultures, and religions, and were deprived of a knowledge of self that other peoples had. "Black" became synonymous with cruelty, ugliness, and bleakness, while Social Darwinist whites put themselves in a position of natural superiority.

African Americans fought long and hard to gain the same civil rights and liberties as ordinary Americans. Since the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964 however, the race issue has remained salient, with spikes in relevance every so often. In general, black people still suffer indiscriminately from police brutality, high rates of incarceration, the breakdown of the family, and lower access to education, health care, and high-paying jobs. Some of these issues stem out of policies that overlook African American issues, while others are more social. Several movements were established to redress these serious issues, such as the NAACP, Urban League, the Rainbow PUSH coalition, as well as the Nation of Islam and other religious organizations. In recent years, Black Lives Matter (BLM) has become the leading activist group on the streets and on social media, bringing awareness to issues in the African American community and seeking to redress them through progressive policies.

Hamza Yusuf recently suggested that Muslims should not join BLM, in fear that more identity politics would exacerbate race relations in America. The Shaykh went on to naively use trigger phrases like "black on black violence", "more whites are shot by police", and "police are not all racist", which had him labelled as a racist by legions of hipster Muslims on Twitter. As many have pointed out, Shaykh Hamza Yusuf comes from a pretty privileged background - he grew up in a wealthy neighbourhood, his relatives were wealthy, his parents were well-educated, and he went to private schools (see here). His family marched with the civil rights movement and against the Vietnam War, and explored different world religions, but like a lot of 60-70s hippies, the Shaykh is probably still a bit more out of touch with the working class than the average person. Still though, Shaykh Hamza Yusuf has actually lived in with bedouins in Africa, and he has spoken about poverty, inequality, and the civil rights movement on multiple occasions. His resume, as a Shaykh that balances the best of Western education with traditional Sunni scholarship, is far more impressive than that of most Western Muslim speakers.

On one hand, Hamza Yusuf could have worded himself better to address the very real race problem in the United States. Yes, there are anti-discriminatory laws in place, but clearly a lot more needs to be done to redress the race issue - body cameras on cops, judicial reform, and affirmative action in police departments in minority communities are a good step. But the onslaught against Shaykh Hamza has a few people scratching their heads - first off, why don't we get the same outrage when a Muslim speaker says something insensitive about Shiites, or when a speaker gleans over racist or sexist injustices in the Muslim world? More pertinently though, is what Shaykh Hamza said wrong? Hamza Yusuf is a Sufi, which attracts a lot of liberal ears to listen to him, but he is a traditionalist and a conservative at his core, and so every now and then he will say something that will get this type of reaction (this time being the climax).

Hamza Yusuf's argument is, if BLM is just an angry rebuke to the system, with few clear policy goals, then it has the potential of making problems worse - more violence against police officers (more police have died in 2016 than in the last 5 years, some during BLM protests), and worse race relations in coming months and years. BLM is more than just the issue of police brutality - it is a living, breathing organization with its own motives and goals. For the purpose of this article, it is important for our minds to mentally separate BLM and police brutality for a moment. BLM in essence is a cadre of identity politics, which highlights one's race or gender as an essential quality in a person (rather than an accidental quality), and very much sees everything through the lens of racism. Hamza Yusuf said that this only helps create the type of "whitelash" we saw with the election of Trump, which will only make things worse for minorities and not better. Hamza Yusuf once said, ethics should be rooted in verbs and adverbs, not nouns and pronouns. I agree with this, and while racism and white privilege is real, we should talk about the *issues* that plague society and not just about identity.

This controversy has caused me to think on multiple fronts. With regards to the Muslim community, it is clear that most Muslim youth identify with leftist politics, since it is multicultural and inclusive. Unfortunately, that comes with baggage: secularism, individualism, naturalism and religious skepticism, identity politics, LGBT rights, hookup culture and the normalization of sex, third wave feminism, body positivism, political correctness, and in general pro-revolutionary sentiments in almost every situation where even mild grievances exist. Balancing this with the Islamic tradition, which can be opposite on most of these issues, is particularly troublesome. The hipster Muslima with a rainbow scarf and a Guevara shirt marching at a Sl*tWalk is becoming increasingly more normal in Western Muslim communities.

I also began thinking about how Black Lives Matter differs from earlier black organizations. There's no doubt that BLM is the cool kid on the block, whom every Muslim revolutionary wants to embrace (Jonathan AC Brown, Linda Sarsour, Suhaib Webb to name a few). However, are their goals the same as the black community, and are they consistent with Islam?

In the 1990s, we saw another spike in relevance of the race issue, and this time, it was the Nation of Islam (NOI) under Louis Farrakhan that was the primary "race communicator" for black people in America. The NOI is a black nationalist American Muslim sect that differed from traditional Islamic views on theology and race. Irregardless of where the NOI may have deviated, the Nation of Islam organized a grassroots movement that brought black civil rights groups, religious groups, and activists together at the 1995 Million Man March. The Million Man March was a historic rally at Washington DC that brought leading African American figures together to demand justice and reproach, including Rosa Parks, Betty Shabazz, Jesse Jackson, Jeremiah Wright, Shaykh Ahmad Tijani Ben Omar, and Minister Farrakhan.

The Million Man March approached the issue of African American suffering in a very different way than BLM. First off, the March was only for black males, who were seen as the major agents of potential change in the Afro-American community. Over 72% of black children are born out of wedlock. Fatherlessness, which Hamza Yusuf mentions in his later apology lecture, is detrimental to any family, and leads to higher rates of poverty, drug and alcohol abuse, and mental health problems. Considering the high rates of gang violence, incarceration, drug abuse, and unprotected sex among black males, any solution to the plight of African Americans must include black men. Secondly, the Million Man March sought to bring all religious organizations together to seek repentance and God's support. As people of faith, we don't see all suffering simply as a result of natural causes; rather some suffering can be a divine trial or chastisement, by which we must seek God's succor. The event's major themes were "Lessons from the Past", "Affirmation and Responsibility", and "Atonement and Reconciliation", and it was believed that the very real injustices that exist in America would only be solved through a return to traditional values. Thirdly, the Million Man March gave the means for thousands of black people to register as voters, making the black community a strong political bloc in the American electoral system. The event ended with a pledge to God that they would be good community members from that day forward.

Black Lives Matter, on the other hand, has a very different vision for black America. It is, of course, absolutely secular, and blames the collective suffering of black people on white supremacy. Furthermore, not only does BLM sideline black fathers, but it ignores them completely on their website. BLM has a lot to say about the LGBT community and [presumably single] mothers, its guiding principles leaves straight black males out completely, despite the documented problems that fatherless homes can cause in the lives of youth. BLM even sees traditional "nuclear families" as somehow white supremacist, even though families in Africa are largely patriarchal and nuclear. Yusra Khogali, the leader of the Toronto chapter of Black Lives Matter (remember, Hamza Yusuf made his comments in Toronto), infamously tweeted about "killing men and whitefolks", and shared articles telling women to avoid conscientious black men. Khogali recently protested against Dr. Jordan Peterson, a professor of psychology at the University of Toronto, for refusing to use genderless pronouns like "xe" instead of "he" or "she". BLM also hijacked the Gay Pride Parade until their demands on the Pride organization were met, and hijacked a Bernie Sanders event in 2015. Millennial organizations like BLM are the reason why the alt-right exists, who also use the same frame of identity politics to identify as white nationalists to attack Muslims, blacks, women, and others. Contributing to the frame of identity politics can awaken the sleeping white-nationalist giant in Europe and North America, and awaken far right-wing voices that want to push all minorities away.

Not only does BLM stand for things that are totally irreconcilable with Islam, such as the LGBT issue, but it is devoid of the religiosity found in other black movements, the participation of straight black men, and it does not responsibly address issues within the black community. It is focused on "fighting the system", rather than clamping down on a hookup culture that is destined to plague another generation with fatherless households and STDs. Rather than solving the problems related black fathers, it ignores their issues and fails to address them. It is common to find feminist circles that paint black fathers as irresponsible misogynists that are part of the problem and not the solution - this attitude can only make things worse.

At the very least, the Nation of Islam encouraged a self-help approach: they promoted strong family values, they started rehabilitation programs for those affected by drugs and alcohol, they deployed their Fruit of Islam unit to stop riots and gang violence, they established their own schools and curricula, and they rid their community of the social ills that affect other black communities. BLM on the other hand is a Soros-funded intersectional liberal organization with an agenda that does not jive with Abrahamic religion.

When women, Latinos, blacks, Muslims, and homosexuals began popularizing identity politics, it was a natural consequence that right-wing whites would start doing the same. Some people honestly believe that unless you are black, then you aren't capable of commenting on anything to do with the black community. A white person commenting on black affairs, even to defend black people, is considered a racist by liberals because he is "whitesplaining". Franchesca Ramsey recently appeared in a video arguing that very point. The result of this thinking however is potentially devastating. It means that white people will no longer speak up against racism, because they don't want to appear racist or patronizing. It also means that educated people with legitimate views will be silenced simply due to their race. It also limits outsider perspectives, which are always necessary in a democracy, as every group should be critiqued and held accountable by outsiders. Strange enough, it's also kind of contradictory to multiculturalism - by saying only black people can speak about black issues, and women can only be feminists, and males are inherently privileged, you end up segregating society further. A white male like Hamza Yusuf speaking about race relations or women's issues does not contradict the ethics of our religion - I'm not saying he's right or wrong, I'm saying that he has the right to speak on these issues especially as a trained scholar.

Let's keep in mind that the Muslim community in America in the 60s and 70s was largely an organic one (the biggest being Warith Deen Muhammad's movement), made up of working-class African Americans and white converts. The early Muslim immigrants to America even joined these communities and worked closely with them. But the big influx of bourgeois Muslim immigrants in the 80s and 90s, with their foreign funding (from Saudi and elsewhere), established their own separate communities, bought out the existing communities / swallowed them up, then ostracized the native population, until they almost fizzed out completely. Now, some of those same upper-middle class children of immigrants think they can be pro-black because of their liberal arts degree, a Malcolm quote and a BLM march, yet they themselves would never marry a black person, or volunteer with the homeless or at a prison, or mingle with working-class people in general. As someone who has decent connections within the African American Muslim community in the U.S, I can tell you that these second-generation Muslims really mean nothing to them, and often do more harm than good.

Overall, I agree with Mehdi that Muslims need to be doing more outreach with other communities - that includes the black community. We should also address racism in our own communities, which is more outward than in the average white community. In Trump's America, we cannot afford to stand alone; we need to do more for our cities and our Muslim and non-Muslim communities. We can reach out to black churches, support black businesses, and join civil rights organizations. At the same time, we cannot fall into the trap of supporting causes that are antithetical to our tradition.

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  • Advanced Member

Now you should send this post to Mehdi, and Hamza Yusuf, somehow. And post it 'out there' I.e. On so Yusra's Twitter page or some BLMs profile, and let this get retweeted. 

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  • Advanced Member

I don't believe Muslims should outreach to other people at all. I think isolation is the best thing, we shouldn't be troubled by the problems of the others. 

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  • Advanced Member

@E.L King That's what I used to think, but now I'm halfway between isolation and outreach. On the one hand I prefer isolation and a sort of "all Muslims getting together and being told the above post and immunising themselves and families against all the tidal waves of LGBT feminism and ant family propaganda", but on the other hand I sometimes feel that might not be enough, if we are to truly protect ourselves we need to 'reach out' and try and attack or change the views of others (seculars, liberals, non Muslims) and perhaps that could lead to an overall change in attitudes/ideaologies amongst "them", and this will then make things much more relaxed and easier for us. We won't have to worry about ourselves or our kids or brothers or sisters being sucked in by any of these ideaologies too much. 

An example I can give is the simple fact that the old generation feminists (70/80s) many of them are now (already have) turned on feminism, and say that they were told a lie about having it all I.e climbing the career ladder, doing the long 'wall street' hours, and maintaining her marriage, and maintaining her house, and raising her kids, and keep relations with her other family. They tried this, failed, and many of them are depressed and the broken families and missed opportunity of loving and raising their kids. I know this specific example because in my office which I work in we have a white British woman in her 40s, and she just blurted out one day ""I READ THIS BOOK TITLED "you can't have it all" AND THIS IS TRUE! WE WERE TOLD A LIE IN THE 80s and 90s THAT YOU CAN HAVE IT ALL!!"" ( we what does Islam say about this all?!? Exactly.) 

Islam is Allah's wisdom. So imagine 'out reaching' to the woman like the one in my office. About what Islam says about marriage and work and wife and husband. And imagine reaching out to millions women like these, and students, and making a major stand against the LGBT feminist and no identity and no nuclear family sillyness. 

But, then sometimes I think isolation is best first simply by how bad the state of the Muslims is. Let's first fix our house and make sure it is water proof, wind proof and proof from all the other satanic crap. 

Edited by YAli
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  • Advanced Member
17 minutes ago, YAli said:

@E.L King That's what I used to think, but now I'm halfway between isolation and outreach. On the one hand I prefer isolation and a sort of "all Muslims getting together and being told the above post and immunising themselves and families against all the tidal waves of LGBT feminism and ant family propaganda", but on the other hand I sometimes feel that might not be enough, if we are to truly protect ourselves we need to 'reach out' and try and attack or change the views of others (seculars, liberals, non Muslims) and perhaps that could lead to an overall change in attitudes/ideaologies amongst "them", and this will then make things much more relaxed and easier for us. We won't have to worry about ourselves or our kids or brothers or sisters being sucked in by any of these ideaologies too much. 

An example I can give is the simple fact that the old generation feminists (70/80s) many of them are now (already have) turned on feminism, and say that they were told a lie about having it all I.e climbing the career ladder, doing the long 'wall street' hours, and maintaining her marriage, and maintaining her house, and raising her kids, and keep relations with her other family. They tried this, failed, and many of them are depressed and the broken families and missed opportunity of loving and raising their kids. I know this specific example because in my office which I work in we have a white British woman in her 40s, and she just blurted out one day ""I READ THIS BOOK TITLED "you can't have it all" AND THIS IS TRUE! WE WERE TOLD A LIE IN THE 80s and 90s THAT YOU CAN HAVE IT ALL!!"" ( we what does Islam say about this all?!? Exactly.) 

Islam is Allah's wisdom. So imagine 'out reaching' to the woman like the one in my office. About what Islam says about marriage and work and wife and husband. And imagine reaching out to millions women like these, and students, and making a major stand against the LGBT feminist and no identity and no nuclear family sillyness. 

But, then sometimes I think isolation is best first simply by how bad the state of the Muslims is. Let's first fix our house and make sure it is water proof, wind proof and proof from all the other satanic crap. 

This is to me also a problem. Some Muslims might say the first wave of feminism was good, I say they are all bad. Whether it was in the 1800s or in 2016, very much the same, just more extreme.

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  • Advanced Member
7 minutes ago, E.L King said:

This is to me also a problem. Some Muslims might say the first wave of feminism was good, I say they are all bad. Whether it was in the 1800s or in 2016, very much the same, just more extreme.

I didn't say it was good. My view is the same as yours, they were and are all bad. One step which the devil put which only led to step two and step three.  

If anyone wants rights, whether they are a man or woman, look at the Quran, at what Allah has commanded and ordained. And also look at the prophet and his family. That is more than enough, and also more correct. Simple. 

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  • Advanced Member

@E.L King BLM and feminist movements are funded by the likes of George Soros. Watch the below video of him and you will see this vampire would only love to play with society like his is some sort of God. 

 

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  • Development Team
2 hours ago, E.L King said:

I don't believe Muslims should outreach to other people at all. I think isolation is the best thing, we shouldn't be troubled by the problems of the others. 

So I guess we can forget about dawah and spreading the message of Islam; The only way you can accept the prophethood of Muhammad (saws), the wilayah of Ali (as) and the sacrifices of the Ahlulbayt (as) is to be born into it.

No more reverts either, we can't be troubled by people who take the time to explore and accept our deen.

No more speaking out against far-right clowns, Islamophobia and Zionist politicians and their policies. 

After all, we can't be bothered according to you. Isolation is the best policy, right. 

I'm sorry to say but I am offended by what you said. This is nothing more than a slap in the face to me as a revert.

I might make a personal struggle to get rid of ignorant thinking like yours in the Ummah because I didn't convert to Judaism 2.0, I converted to Islam which rejects such nonsense like a chosen race and being born into religion through and through.

Before you accuse me of twisting your words out of their context, reread what you wrote and understand what I wrote above is exactly how I perceived it.

Wording is everything if you don't want to want to be misunderstood, brother. 

I'm very disappointed in you, that's all I can say.

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  • Advanced Member
14 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

So I guess we can forget about dawah and spreading the message of Islam; The only way you can accept the prophethood of Muhammad (saws), the wilayah of Ali (as) and the sacrifices of the Ahlulbayt (as) is to be born into it.

No more reverts either, we can't be troubled by people who take the time to explore and accept our deen.

No more speaking out against far-right clowns, Islamophobia and Zionist politicians and their policies. 

After all, we can't be bothered according to you. Isolation is the best policy, right. 

I'm sorry to say but I am offended by what you said. This is nothing more than a slap in the face to me as a revert.

I might make a personal struggle to get rid of ignorant thinking like yours in the Ummah because I didn't convert to Judaism 2.0, I converted to Islam which rejects such nonsense like a chosen race and being born into religion through and through.

Before you accuse me of twisting your words out of their context, reread what you wrote and understand what I wrote above is exactly how I perceived it.

Wording is everything if you don't want to want to be misunderstood, brother. 

I'm very disappointed in you, that's all I can say.

What does what I said have to do with Da'wah? My post has nothing to do with religious preaching and preaching against sin.

All I said is that Muslims shouldn't be involved in liberal vs conservative battles. 

Pro-police vs pro-BLM is another one of these useless issues that Muslims don't need to be into. IMO

I believe isolation from politics is a good thing for Muslims in the West in the current time. Don't you?

Edited by E.L King
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7 minutes ago, E.L King said:

What does what I said have to do with Da'wah? My post has nothing to do with religious preaching and preaching against sin.

All I said is that Muslims shouldn't be involved in liberal vs conservative battles. 

Pro-police vs pro-BLM is another one of these useless issues that Muslims don't need to be into. IMO

I believe isolation from politics is a good thing for Muslims in the West in the current time. Don't you?

No, not really but you should have mentioned that earlier in your comment to prevent people like me from misunderstanding you. 

It's common sense. 

If we want a decent life in the West, we must speak up and not let liberals or conservatives use us or oppress us. Does that make sense to you?  You understand where I'm coming from with this? 

All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing, brother. 

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1 hour ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

No, not really but you should have mentioned that earlier in your comment to prevent people like me from misunderstanding you. 

It's common sense. 

If we want a decent life in the West, we must speak up and not let liberals or conservatives use us or oppress us. Does that make sense to you?  You understand where I'm coming from with this? 

All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing, brother. 

I do understand you, but that's not how things have played out. Heck, half the people on this website were all out for Bernie Sanders.

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9 minutes ago, YAli said:

@E.L King That's why I said we also need to fix our own house first. All of these liberal pro LGBT feminist Muslims without any wisdom or clue. 

They aren't pro-gay Muslims. They are Muslims with proper beliefs like me and you, Shi'a, and support liberal politicians/policies because they might help the Muslim community. At the same time, many are in solidarity with movements like BLM and what not, even though they are religious Muslims with solid beliefs.

Isolation is the way to go I believe.

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  • Development Team
5 hours ago, E.L King said:

Isolation is the way to go I believe

Why and how would isolation work

I fail to see how it makes sense or how it would work out. Please explain it to me. 

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5 hours ago, E.L King said:

At the same time, many are in solidarity with movements like BLM and what not, even though they are religious Muslims with solid beliefs.

Are you stating this in a positive or negative way? 

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31 minutes ago, E.L King said:

I see, well I am sorry to say this but there are only two feasible options that I see. 1.) Intergration while keeping the deen,it will save a lot of heartache and frustration  and 2.) Hijrah, although not everyone can go  or willing to adapt to  Iran, Lebanon, Iraq or Kuwait. Can't go to Qatar or Saudi Arabia obviously or really any Sunni majority country. 

Heck, I read a post saying that Western converts are not really wanted in the Middle East. If there's any truth to it, where will we go now? So that would just leave intergration and we can do it while remaining true to Islam.

I really don't see separation working too well for us unfortunately @E.L King

 

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar
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  • Forum Administrators

I thought I may have missed it, but a quick word search showed no reference to this factor, so I thought I'd mention the role of music.

In addition to all the other issues that Bro Qa'im identifies that afflict Black American culture, their heavy involvement with music in all respects must be a factor contributing to the situation in which they find themselves.

Obviously I take the view that all music is wrong. But even if we go along with a non-Muslim set of values, it's possible to identify research which shows that some of the music to which black people listen can have a negative impact:

Quote

One systematic examination of popular music found six major themes: men and power, sex as a top priority for males, objectification of women, sexual violence, women defined by having a man, and women not valuing themselves (Bretthauer, Zimmerman, & Banning, 2007). 

http://digitalcommons.macalester.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1030&context=psychology_honors

 

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15 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I see, well I am sorry to say this but there are only two feasible options that I see. 1.) Intergration while keeping the deen,it will save a lot of heartache and frustration  and 2.) Hijrah, although not everyone can go  or willing to adapt to  Iran, Lebanon, Iraq or Kuwait. Can't go to Qatar or Saudi Arabia obviously or really any Sunni majority country. 

Heck, I read a post saying that Western converts are not really wanted in the Middle East. If there's any truth to it, where will we go now? So that would just leave intergration and we can do it while remaining true to Islam.

I really don't see separation working too well for us unfortunately @E.L King

 

Why are those the only two options? Maybe in America, but go to Britain and similar countries and you will see Muslims living together, sometimes extremely seperated from non-Muslims.

The Western media sometimes call them "Sharia Zones".

Edited by E.L King
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  • Development Team
11 hours ago, E.L King said:

Why are those the only two options?

Because either option prevents the media from the vilification of our communities. 

Living separated from the rest of society is exactly what  the media wants so they can rile people up about the "decay" of "Western/Christian/American, etc."

It puts a big target on our backs, it gives the far-right an enemy and someone to blame for society's ills.

11 hours ago, E.L King said:

The Western media sometimes call them "Sharia Zones".

This language is exactly what you don't want the media saying. People have been enough lies to fear "Sharia Zones ", they are afraid of them because the media tells them to be afraid.

You have no idea what I see or hear about Muslims from my friends and family who are Christian or right wing. It's really scary and a ticking time bomb. 

I don't know how I can make it any clearer for you. Why do you think Europe has Pegida or Golden Dawn? Where do you think Britain First  or the English Defence League popped up from? 

They are all opposed to the so-called "Islamification" of Europe.

It's an big societal issue when the media which is more powerful than it has ever been, gives them a reason or justification to attack, spray paint and vandalize mosques, antagonize hijabis and burn Qurans as a political statement.

 If we are separate from society,we make ourselves easy pickings for these people.

And if we remain isolationist, it sends a message of "Go ahead, we're not going to fight back" and then it will get worse from here.

You might not agree with me, but you have to admit,  these are all pretty valid concerns and that we are at a point where we cannot afford to isolate ourselves any longer. We have to speak out.  

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar
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  • Basic Members

Black Lives Matter (BLM), as the writer astutely high-lighted, is a well-funded liberal mechanism to control African-American activism. I don't support the movement, but that does not mean that Muslims shouldn't have anything to say about injustice, oppression, and exclusion from resources and opportunity.

One of the goals of the liberal and BLM, in my opinion, is to relate LGBT with the struggles of Black people. However, the two issues are on opposite poles of the moral compass. Islam is clear on this issue. Their is no inherent superiority of one people over another in Islam, and family - the core family being a married man and woman - is the foundation of the Ummah.

Also, we should speak out about injustice, exclusion, and lack of opportunity in society. Are we afraid of a White backlash? Don't fear men .. fear Allah (swt). People of European descent should understand that their system does not work and is the root cause of the social ills that plague society

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  • Advanced Member
On 12/31/2016 at 10:52 PM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Because either option prevents the media from the vilification of our communities. 

Living separated from the rest of society is exactly what  the media wants so they can rile people up about the "decay" of "Western/Christian/American, etc."

It puts a big target on our backs, it gives the far-right an enemy and someone to blame for society's ills.

This language is exactly what you don't want the media saying. People have been enough lies to fear "Sharia Zones ", they are afraid of them because the media tells them to be afraid.

You have no idea what I see or hear about Muslims from my friends and family who are Christian or right wing. It's really scary and a ticking time bomb. 

I don't know how I can make it any clearer for you. Why do you think Europe has Pegida or Golden Dawn? Where do you think Britain First  or the English Defence League popped up from? 

They are all opposed to the so-called "Islamification" of Europe.

It's an big societal issue when the media which is more powerful than it has ever been, gives them a reason or justification to attack, spray paint and vandalize mosques, antagonize hijabis and burn Qurans as a political statement.

 If we are separate from society,we make ourselves easy pickings for these people.

And if we remain isolationist, it sends a message of "Go ahead, we're not going to fight back" and then it will get worse from here.

You might not agree with me, but you have to admit,  these are all pretty valid concerns and that we are at a point where we cannot afford to isolate ourselves any longer. We have to speak out.  

You have a point here. But the so called integration has gone totally wonky. It has been muslims jumping open arms into western ideals, drinking, smoking, fornicating etc. If you just defined these people by their behavior, it would be hard to call them muslims.  

Instead we need muslims who will integrate and not turn into liberal, kind of muslim, kind of pro LGBT, kind of okay with drinking, kind of fasting ramadan people. So we really need to teach our young generation to be like many of the muslims i see on this forum; good, solid, intelligent humans that don't give a damn about anything if someone or a government were to break the law of Allah. They will stand strong. 

I also want to give you an example; i work for a company that has a head office in the US. They hold meetings and gathering every now and then, and all employees are expected to attend. We have the meetings at places such as hotels etc, and then we go out for dinner, and it is all free mixing, people swear, and morals are very low. They all drink, and talk crap. And we are also expected to fly to the US a couple times a year for meetings, and my last trip there... well daytime at office went by, and then evening time we had a ''office quiz'', They were all drinking, men and women all mixed, sometimes making sexual remarks, and then some guy gets up and starts stripping (luckily not fully naked). And you are really expected to attend these. 

So in terms of integration... honestly... if my wife wanted to work in a corporate company, i would so NO WAY IN HELL. NO. I DON'T GIVE A DAMN. I HAVE SEEN ENOUGH OF WHAT GOES ON. Even today i have heard enough sexual remarks, including a banana being paraded around as a penis by some very very senior colleague. And let me tell you, the company i work for is really, really tame. Really bloody tame. Other companies are much more wild. 

So bro we are stuck in between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand we want to integrate, but on the other how much are you willing to risk. For me, i certainly would never risk my wife working for a corporate. 

It's tough. And it only gets tougher for the more practicing and Allah fearing muslim. The only other way around it is if you have your own business, then you set your own rules. No worries in that case. Especially if you are very wealthy (million/billion). Then no worries. Stop your car and pray in a field. Because you have the flexibility to organise your schedule/timetable and surroundings and tailor them to make your islamic duties very very easy. 

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@Gaius I. Caesar btw I want to emphasise again that I do certainly agree that we need to .... Hmm perhaps a better world than integrate is 'engage'. Our scholars and strong knowledgable Muslims certainly must engage the western secular society, and they must do it without being shy and without bending the words of Allah e.g. The sin of homosexuality, Islamic laws, roles of men and women and their respective rights assigned to each of them etc. And they better not changed their words or back down. We need this constant engagement from the higher level such as politicians, and also on the ground with strong Muslims like you, where you engage with your Christian friends and work colleagues etc. 

Again, all without compromising what Allah has made halal and haram. 

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