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What makes a patriot, and what makes a traitor?


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#1 ShahLatif

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Posted 01 September 2006 - 01:05 PM

I have recently seen a lot of heated debates that eventually boil down to mudslinging and name-calling, the most common being a 'traitor'.

The question is: what is patriotism from an ISLAMIC perspective???

What does islam and shii school of thought say about loyalty to a NATION-STATE?


For instance, imagine if Pakistan and india go to war over some dispute. As shias, are we supposed to obey our Marja's recommendations or to Mushy or Manmohan's?


Do nation-states override Ummah? Remember a nation-state is defined by a constitution that may or may not be islamic.

If loyalty to a nation-state is a reigious duty, then should the American-born muslims stand by America's imperial adventurs carried out in the name of 'national-security'???

In the end I will quote Iqbal:

In taaza khudaaon main bara sub say WATAN hay
Jo parahan uska hay wo mazhab ka KAFAN hay

In other words, watan-parasti is the antithesis of religion, according to Iqbal.

Edited by ShahLatif, 01 September 2006 - 03:06 PM.


#2 Satyam

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Posted 01 September 2006 - 02:00 PM

A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.
Edward Abbey

I always try to make that distinction (and I fail occasionally, I am only human). Many here are convinced that I hate Pakistanis as a people and Pakistan as a country. But those who care to actually read my posts know that I don't hate the Pakistani people, but its regime , particularly the policies and actions of the said regime (and its die hard knee-jerk apologists).

Edited by Satyam, 01 September 2006 - 02:00 PM.


#3 Changed

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Posted 01 September 2006 - 02:08 PM

Mohibe watan aur watan parast me zamin asman ka farq hota hae, hubbul watani se parhez nahi par yaqinan watan parasti haram hae, kyuke: La ilaha il Allah.

#4 ShahLatif

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Posted 01 September 2006 - 03:14 PM

A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.
Edward Abbey

I always try to make that distinction (and I fail occasionally, I am only human). Many here are convinced that I hate Pakistanis as a people and Pakistan as a country. But those who care to actually read my posts know that I don't hate the Pakistani people, but its regime , particularly the policies and actions of the said regime (and its die hard knee-jerk apologists).


Nice quote indeed. However, don't you think it borders on anarchism? After all, any modern government would play politics to safeguard its own interests and prolong its stay in power. By what standard you judge a government's actions to be altruistic? Plus can we trust an individual (the patriot in this quote) to decide what constitutes anti-state activities of a government and then start acting according to his own conscience? (remember Bush has been using this argument a lot saying : let history decide if my actions viz iraq were justified)..

Edited by ShahLatif, 01 September 2006 - 03:15 PM.


#5 al-syedia

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 12:18 AM

hubbul watni aik natural thing hai
bhai mery khyal main(jo k ghalat bhi ho sakta hai)
k ham aik islamic mulk main rehty hain
agar ham per koi mulk attack kerta hai tu ham kya karengay?
apnay mulk ka difa karengay na???
ab aap dekhiye k mir jafar aik ghadar tha
lakin tipu aik patriot
hana?
kiss wajha sey
woh apnay mulk ka difa ker rha tha
aur aap baat kerty hain marha ko follow kerny ki tu janab
main yeh baray wasooq sey keh sakta hoon k marja agar keh bhi deena k apnay mulk ka difa karoo tabb bhi aap log koi na koi bahana dhoond lo gay

#6 Aasee

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 10:05 AM

I have recently seen a lot of heated debates that eventually boil down to mudslinging and name-calling, the most common being a 'traitor'.

The question is: what is patriotism from an ISLAMIC perspective???

What does islam and shii school of thought say about loyalty to a NATION-STATE?
For instance, imagine if Pakistan and india go to war over some dispute. As shias, are we supposed to obey our Marja's recommendations or to Mushy or Manmohan's?
Do nation-states override Ummah? Remember a nation-state is defined by a constitution that may or may not be islamic.

If loyalty to a nation-state is a reigious duty, then should the American-born muslims stand by America's imperial adventurs carried out in the name of 'national-security'???

In the end I will quote Iqbal:

In taaza khudaaon main bara sub say WATAN hay
Jo parahan uska hay wo mazhab ka KAFAN hay


In other words, watan-parasti is the antithesis of religion, according to Iqbal.


Is iqbal some sort of Hujjat on you?

Why quote the example of a war between India and Pakistan, one a Sunni majority state and the other a secular state with a hindu majority.

Why not cite an example of an Iran-Iraq conflict, which are both Shia majority countries, or a Pakistan Afghanistan conflict, in this case both Sunni majority countries.

A most interesting scenarios would an Iran-Pakistan war, a Shia Majority state calling itself Islamic, and a Pakistan, with a sizable Shia population but a Sunni majority state calling itself Islamic.

This would be a tight-rope . . . lovely bazigari would be seen :P


A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.
Edward Abbey

I always try to make that distinction (and I fail occasionally, I am only human). Many here are convinced that I hate Pakistanis as a people and Pakistan as a country. But those who care to actually read my posts know that I don't hate the Pakistani people, but its regime , particularly the policies and actions of the said regime (and its die hard knee-jerk apologists).


The quote is worth casting in imperishable bronze and placing it at the front door of every parliament and every ministry in the world.



Mohibe watan aur watan parast me zamin asman ka farq hota hae, hubbul watani se parhez nahi par yaqinan watan parasti haram hae, kyuke: La ilaha il Allah.


Jahan hubbe watan aur La Ilaha illAllah kaa takraao hoga. whana kya karo gay, yeh batao, iss mein interested hein hamm

Nice quote indeed. However, don't you think it borders on anarchism? After all, any modern government would play politics to safeguard its own interests and prolong its stay in power. By what standard you judge a government's actions to be altruistic? Plus can we trust an individual (the patriot in this quote) to decide what constitutes anti-state activities of a government and then start acting according to his own conscience? (remember Bush has been using this argument a lot saying : let history decide if my actions viz iraq were justified)..


No. It does not border on anrachism at all.

The essence of democracy is power from the grass roots up, as said by Cicero 2,500 years ago- Government of the people, by the people, for the people.

The most important part is "for the people. The more a government strives for increase in the common weal, the better a government it is.

Any government that foregoes this striving to perpetuate its hold on power, becomes undemocratic and unpatriotic thereby.

The people, [sadly, here we find demogoguery winning over common sense almost always] are the sole judges and the best judges.

There CAN, and there WILL come a time when people at large will be informed enough, and therefore wise enough, ti be NOT TAKEN IN by demagogues and rabble-rousers.


hubbul watni aik natural thing hai
bhai mery khyal main(jo k ghalat bhi ho sakta hai)
k ham aik islamic mulk main rehty hain
agar ham per koi mulk attack kerta hai tu ham kya karengay?
apnay mulk ka difa karengay na???
ab aap dekhiye k mir jafar aik ghadar tha
lakin tipu aik patriot
hana?
kiss wajha sey
woh apnay mulk ka difa ker rha tha
aur aap baat kerty hain marha ko follow kerny ki tu janab
main yeh baray wasooq sey keh sakta hoon k marja agar keh bhi deena k apnay mulk ka difa karoo tabb bhi aap log koi na koi bahana dhoond lo gay



O bhai tumharay khyal aam tore peh ghalat hotay hein.

Pakistan Islami mulk hai? La hawla wala quwwata illa billah?

Hubbe watan ka t'aluq sirf halat-ejang ya kisi dusray kay hamley se nahin hai.

Hubbe watan yeh bhi hai agar Chief of Army Staff mulk peh fauji qabza kar lay to uss swine ki mukhalfat karo . . .

#7 ShahLatif

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 10:36 AM

The essence of democracy is power from the grass roots up, as said by Cicero 2,500 years ago- Government of the people, by the people, for the people.

The most important part is "for the people. The more a government strives for increase in the common weal, the better a government it is.

Any government that foregoes this striving to perpetuate its hold on power, becomes undemocratic and unpatriotic thereby.


Aasee

So who defines the rules for the grass-roots movement?

Pat Buchanan, Chomsky, Hamza Yusuf, and Louis Farrakhan all despise Bush for very *different* reasons that are sometimes poles apart. Now each can act as per his own conscience since they follow their *own* definitions of patriotism. Each will follow his own rules of protest. Some can potentially get violent (imagine a white-supremacist group taking heed to Buchanan's fear mongering). Hypothetically speaking, together they can bring down a government that they deem to be anti-state for *different* sets of reasons. Apart from their hatred of Bush they will rarely agree on anything. What would you call this situation?


Is iqbal some sort of Hujjat on you?

Tell me what you find wrong with his idea?

Why quote the example of a war between India and Pakistan, one a Sunni majority state and the other a secular state with a hindu majority.


indo-pak partition is a classic example of the division of a muslim community in two nation-state by a colonial power.

Why not cite an example of an Iran-Iraq conflict, which are both Shia majority countries, or a Pakistan Afghanistan conflict, in this case both Sunni majority countries.


Iraqi shias follow an iranian ayatullah as their marja, vote for iranian backed SCIRI and come out in *huge* numbers demonstrating for Hezbullah.

The iran-iraq war was fought along the arab-persian divide. That divide isn't as powerful anymore, esp. with shia dreams of empowerment that are bolstered by iranian politics in the region. This despite all the bad treatment the iraqi refugees have received at the hands on the iranians (but that's hardly unique, I have yet to find a refugee group in the whole world that was *respected* in their host country)..

Edited by ShahLatif, 02 September 2006 - 10:39 AM.


#8 Solar

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 11:58 AM

I have recently seen a lot of heated debates that eventually boil down to mudslinging and name-calling, the most common being a 'traitor'.

The question is: what is patriotism from an ISLAMIC perspective???

What does islam and shii school of thought say about loyalty to a NATION-STATE?
For instance, imagine if Pakistan and india go to war over some dispute. As shias, are we supposed to obey our Marja's recommendations or to Mushy or Manmohan's?
Do nation-states override Ummah? Remember a nation-state is defined by a constitution that may or may not be islamic.

If loyalty to a nation-state is a reigious duty, then should the American-born muslims stand by America's imperial adventurs carried out in the name of 'national-security'???

In the end I will quote Iqbal:

In taaza khudaaon main bara sub say WATAN hay
Jo parahan uska hay wo mazhab ka KAFAN hay

In other words, watan-parasti is the antithesis of religion, according to Iqbal.


The Shia are quite divided on the issue of the definitions of nationhood, statehood, and governance.

#9 Rawshni

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 01:09 PM

^

As per classic thought, zamin Allah kee, hukam Allah kaa, a benevolent divine dictatorship . . .

#10 -SeeKeR-

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Posted 02 September 2006 - 02:01 PM

As far as i am concerned,i think islam always teaches us to follow the righteous and just path...so if one's country is on the right side...support them otherwise raise your voice againt it.'Cuz if someone is a true patriot then they wouldn't want to bring harm to ther country...which wrongly supporting one's country would ultimatley lead too.
Simlarly if two muslims countries or even a secular and a muslim country go to war...i guess it would be our duty as muslims to support the opressed and wronged ones!

#11 al-syedia

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Posted 03 September 2006 - 07:07 AM

O bhai tumharay khyal aam tore peh ghalat hotay hein.

Pakistan Islami mulk hai? La hawla wala quwwata illa billah?

Hubbe watan ka t'aluq sirf halat-ejang ya kisi dusray kay hamley se nahin hai.

Hubbe watan yeh bhi hai agar Chief of Army Staff mulk peh fauji qabza kar lay to uss swine ki mukhalfat karo

yeh tu aap ki zara nawazi hai k aap k hyal main mery tamam khyal ghalat hoty hain
lolz
array bhai main aik topic shurro kerta hoon uss main contribute zaroor kijiyega
aur mery khyal main pakistan aik islamic country hai
aap mainye ya na maniye
aur yeh bataiyee k yeh shia sunni ka kya chakkar hai
ham sab musalman hain.......... khuda ka wasta hai!!!

Edited by al-syedia, 03 September 2006 - 07:09 AM.


#12 ShahLatif

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Posted 03 September 2006 - 10:03 AM

aur mery khyal main pakistan aik islamic country hai


agar pakistan aik islamic country hay toe aisay islam ko saat salam. I didnt know islam stands for jihalat, corruption, tabqati-istehsaal etc.

#13 maqnouteh

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Posted 03 September 2006 - 10:16 AM

I think the division of India into Pakistan and Bangladesh was a huge mistake! Look at how much Bangladesh is suffering..and Pakistan and India would have made a great combination..Islam was spreading very fast when they were all one state..
It would have been better if all these Muslims had been united under one flag..
Now nationalism has become such a big issue people forget the bigger unifying factor:islam..

#14 habib e najjaar

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Posted 03 September 2006 - 10:30 AM

Now nationalism has become such a big issue people forget the bigger unifying factor:islam..

divide and rule?

#15 maqnouteh

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Posted 03 September 2006 - 10:32 AM

Totally!

#16 Rawshni

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Posted 03 September 2006 - 07:03 PM

I think the division of India into Pakistan and Bangladesh was a huge mistake! Look at how much Bangladesh is suffering..and Pakistan and India would have made a great combination..Islam was spreading very fast when they were all one state..
It would have been better if all these Muslims had been united under one flag..
Now nationalism has become such a big issue people forget the bigger unifying factor:islam..



You've prolly read some history we all are entirely unaware of . . . or are you authoring one?

agar pakistan aik islamic country hay toe aisay islam ko saat salam. I didnt know islam stands for jihalat, corruption, tabqati-istehsaal etc.



Chorro Bhai, sayaanay bayaanay ho keh bachchay keh munh aa rahay ho . . . jahaan baithey ho, Allah Allah karo, aur hamm sabb keh haqq mein duaa karo keh Parwardegaar hamein khaaki taa'oon say nejaat dilaaey . . .

#17 al-syedia

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Posted 04 September 2006 - 12:16 AM

agar pakistan aik islamic country hay toe aisay islam ko saat salam. I didnt know islam stands for jihalat, corruption, tabqati-istehsaal etc

aap nay yeh wohi baat kee hai k islam is a religion of extremeism
tu iss islam ko saat salam
bhai jaan islam is perfect but muslims are not

Chorro Bhai, sayaanay bayaanay ho keh bachchay keh munh aa rahay ho . . . jahaan baithey ho, Allah Allah karo, aur hamm sabb keh haqq mein duaa karo keh Parwardegaar hamein khaaki taa'oon say nejaat dilaaey

haan jee bilkul
aap jaisay siyana na hee banay hamain Allah

#18 sayedzeeshan

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Posted 04 September 2006 - 04:27 AM

(salam)

I would quote a Hadith from Imam Sadiq(as) "To prefer a person with bad character of your nationality/cult over a person of good character of some other nationality/cult is "taasub"". This hadith is very concise and accurate in meaning. It has defined everything for us. Support the one who is on haq regardless of his nationality/cult. So if a pathan or a shia is aggressor, i would definately distance myself from them and would support the oppressed.

In this way Iqbal said "In taaza khudaaon main bara sub say watan hay". And it is an allusion to imperialist ideology in which your nation is supreme over all your interests. Patriotism is something which is quite natural and is recognised by quran when Allah said "O Mankind! We have created you from one male and one female, and then We made you into different races and tribes so that you may know (and easily recognize) each other." But later in this verse Allah says "Surely the most honorable of you in God's sight is the person who is most upright in character among you." (49:13)

The hadith of Imam Sadiq(as) quoted earlier reiterates what is mentioned in last part of this verse.

#19 Excalibur

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Posted 04 September 2006 - 10:05 AM

Latif:

What does islam and shii school of thought say about loyalty to a NATION-STATE?

Why are you asking this question in URDU section? It looks like Latif has some skeletons in the cupboard. :D

In other words, watan-parasti is the antithesis of religion, according to Iqbal.

Then why don't you first convince Iran to open its borders with Southern Iraq and declare the shia state?
watan-parasti anti-thesis of religion? How about Hasan Nasrallah when he says that he is 100% Lebanese.

Satyam:

A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.

abey, kya Pak tumhari hukoomat he? agar nahin he to Pak par kyoon p** karte rehte ho yahan? agar waqai apne hi quote par yaqeen rakhte ho to Manmohan ko gaaliyan do na, yahan aa kar Pak par kyoon nukta-cheeni karte ho?

And Latif, you were SO quick to endorse his views. Like you said earlier, Hindustan tumhara baapu-ji he na.

Now listen what this quote means, and try to understand the reason. It's the INTENTIONS which matter. There is a difference between a person criticizing the government with the aim to strengthen his country, and a person criticizing the governments while openly questioning the very existence of the country.
You belong to the second category. Like you said in another thread, you are fed-up with Pakistan itself, not just this government.

If you are man enough then stop hiding behind Islam, and come out and say openly that yes, you are traitor to Pakistan. And you will work with enemies of Pakistan like Satyam, who have not accepted Pak's existence even now.

Edited by Excalibur, 04 September 2006 - 10:18 AM.


#20 ShahLatif

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Posted 04 September 2006 - 10:43 AM

Latif:

Why are you asking this question in URDU section? It looks like Latif has some skeletons in the cupboard. :D


if there was a 'Pakistan-india' forum I would have asked it there. the intended audiance is in the title, nothing ulterior here.

Then why don't you first convince Iran to open its borders with Southern Iraq and declare the shia state?


wait till the shia part of iraq seceeds.


watan-parasti anti-thesis of religion? How about Hasan Nasrallah when he says that he is 100% Lebanese.


Wrong example. Nasrallah is more pro-syria and pro-persian than any other leader in Lebanon. 100% etc. is meant for pan-arabist crowd.



And Latif, you were SO quick to endorse his views. Like you said earlier, Hindustan tumhara baapu-ji he na.


Show him where in this post did I endorse his quote. In fact, I raised an objection to it, in a *civilized* way without using abay-tabay. May be that's why some people didn't get it.


Now listen what this quote means, and try to understand the reason. It's the INTENTIONS which matter.


And has God given anyone access to peoples' hearts to read their intentions?

I thought intentions are people's *personal* business.

You belong to the second category. Like you said in another thread, you are fed-up with Pakistan itself, not just this government.


This thread isn't about me, answer the questions I raised. If you want to discuss me fee free to open another thread.


If you are man enough then stop hiding behind Islam, and come out and say openly that yes, you are traitor to Pakistan. And you will work with enemies of Pakistan like Satyam, who have not accepted Pak's existence even now.


If you are muslim enough then try to answer the questions raised in the thread as a muslim would. That is:

a ) with decency,
b ) with logic
c ) any credible sources

otherwise it's no point trying to shoot the messenger with your keyboard.

Edited by ShahLatif, 04 September 2006 - 10:44 AM.


#21 Excalibur

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Posted 04 September 2006 - 01:00 PM

if there was a 'Pakistan-india' forum I would have asked it there. the intended audiance is in the title, nothing ulterior here.

What the hell does "India-Pakistan" has to do with this topic? You are asking question from Islamic point-of-view, then where does INDIA come from?

As soon as you mentioned MATA-JI, you showed all your skeletons. So it IS about Baapu-ji, and your love affair with the polytheists.


wait till the shia part of iraq seceeds.

So you are asking them to divide Iraq and unite with Iran. Good. Since you are planning to divide countries based on sects, I wonder if you will ask Iranians to give up Balochistan and Kurdish parts of Iran. After all, they are sunnis. And this is just one example.
So dear Latif, do you think Iranians will do it?


Wrong example. Nasrallah is more pro-syria and pro-persian than any other leader in Lebanon. 100% etc. is meant for pan-arabist crowd.

So you are saying that Nasrallah is LYING with he has that he is Lebanese?
Irrespective of who it is meant for, irrespective of whether Nasrallah considers himself shia first; when he says that he is Lebanese then it means that he is patriotic to Lebanon, and will not do anything which may harm his country.
DOES IT MAKE YOU ASHAME OF YOURSELF?


Show him where in this post did I endorse his quote. In fact, I raised an objection to it, in a *civilized* way without using abay-tabay. May be that's why some people didn't get it.
And has God given anyone access to peoples' hearts to read their intentions?

Yeah, civilized way was when you called America to be Pakistan's BAAP. Stop this holier than thou attitude, and see that anyone who ridicules his own birth-country is called 'namak-haram' and a coward.

God HAS given access for others to see what other people's intention are. It is called common-sense. Your reason of starting this topic here in Urdu forum is ONLY against Pakistan, and is not intended as an Islamic topic. It is obvious from your posts about how you have given "hope" for Pakistan.


This thread isn't about me, answer the questions I raised. If you want to discuss me feel free to open another thread.

It is YOU who started this thread with a clear intention to criticize Pakistan as a country, and so you will be discussed for sure. And if you need answers then go ask Nasrallah and Iran. Your questions don't make sense.


If you are muslim enough then try to answer the questions raised in the thread as a muslim would. That is:

a ) with decency,
b ) with logic
c ) any credible sources


For starters, your ILLOGICAL and INDECENT anti-Pakistan questions is answered by the CREDIBLE SOURCE of Nasrallah when he called himself a LEBANESE.


otherwise it's no point trying to shoot the messenger with your keyboard.

Yeah. And there is no point in shooting a country with your keyboard either.

#22 Satyam

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Posted 04 September 2006 - 01:12 PM

Satyam:

abey, kya Pak tumhari hukoomat he? agar nahin he to Pak par kyoon p** karte rehte ho yahan? agar waqai apne hi quote par yaqeen rakhte ho to Manmohan ko gaaliyan do na, yahan aa kar Pak par kyoon nukta-cheeni karte ho?


Uberpatriot, what I write is my business. I was asked for an opinion and I gave it. Pakistan is not in Africa or 1000 miles away in the ocean. We are neighbours and whether you like it or not, we will continue to express out opinions (especially when asked for).

If you don't like it complain to the mods.

Oh and if and when I think that my govt is acting against the interests of my country, I will do what I can to fight it. There is such a thing called VOTE in my hand. It is still a quite powerful weapon.

#23 Excalibur

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Posted 04 September 2006 - 01:33 PM

Oh, so you will give your opinion when asked for it?
jaao, dobara parrho ja kar. Latif ISLAMI point-of-view se sawaal kar raha he. Uss ne kaafrion se sawal nahin kiya. Ab jaao ja kar Daliton ki mukhalifat mein juloos nikalo Dehli mein, and leave Pakistan to be discussed by Pakistanis.

Edited by Excalibur, 04 September 2006 - 01:33 PM.


#24 Excalibur

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Posted 04 September 2006 - 01:49 PM

Latif, I think you are asking this question of loyalty to one's country ONLY because you have "given up hope in Pakistan".
In other words, your question about loyalty to country is not the CAUSE, it is the EFFECT of your disbelief in Pakistan.

#25 ShahLatif

ShahLatif

    Manam aan qatra-e-shabnam, ba-nok-e-khaar me raqsam..

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Posted 04 September 2006 - 02:10 PM

What the hell does "India-Pakistan" has to do with this topic? You are asking question from Islamic point-of-view, then where does INDIA come from?


May be if you re-read my first posting it will add up to you.
I have mentioned the use of 'traitor' in heated debate, These debates happen primarily among the pakistani-indian shias on the forum.

As soon as you mentioned MATA-JI, you showed all your skeletons. So it IS about Baapu-ji, and your love affair with the polytheists.

Excalibur
I don't call any country my 'mata'. If you assume this and try to mock me for this non existent belief you are using a straw-man argument.

So you are asking them to divide Iraq and unite with Iran. Good. Since you are planning to divide countries based on sects, I wonder if you will ask Iranians to give up Balochistan and Kurdish parts of Iran. After all, they are sunnis. And this is just one example.

Iraqis were given an option before: an islamic revolution led by Ayatullah al-sadr. That didn't work out. Now the US is there, and balkanization seems more than a possibility.

If the iraqi shias have been pushed into the arms of iranians it's not their fault. The sunni regimes have pushed them to this extreme.

If the iranians repeat the same *mistake* of alienating sunnis of baluchistan can I stop them?

Ideally i'd like all muslims to be united in one *block*. If that's not too practical, I'd rather see all SHIAS in one block. call it crescent or whatever.

So dear Latif, do you think Iranians will do it?

Iraqi shias are natural allies to the iranians.
If iranians play smart they can appease the sunnis, by addressing their grievances.

So you are saying that Nasrallah is LYING with he has that he is Lebanese?

how do you define a lebanese again? someone who worships the boundaries?
remember lebanon was a *part* of syria.
and being pro-iran isn't necessarily *anti-lebanese* either.

So for those who operate in binary logic, it appears as a lie. His line of reasoning seems to favor the idea that syrian and iranian interests are NOT against lebanon.

Remember hizb has openly *thanked* syria and iran for their support.

for those who understand history and geopolitics better, it doesn't appear as a contradiction AT ALL.



Irrespective of who it is meant for, irrespective of whether Nasrallah considers himself shia first; when he says that he is Lebanese then it means that he is patriotic to Lebanon, and will not do anything which may harm his country.

Obviously, and seeking help from iran and syria isn't going to harm lebanon as per his logic.
Remember that Nasrallah stood by Syria when a majority of sunnis are christians were against them.


Yeah, civilized way was when you called America to be Pakistan's BAAP. Stop this holier than thou attitude, and see that anyone who ridicules his own birth-country is called 'namak-haram' and a coward.

Even today pakistan and the US are war-gaming together.
I wish I could find a more derogatory term for this *relationship*.

If Pakistan was squarely in the anti-imperialist block I would have NO REASON whatsover to use this language.

And btw, if you can't prove your claim that I'm a namak-haram from an *islamic* perspective, I will maintain that you have slandered me (not that I really care, but let's see what you can produce?).


God HAS given access for others to see what other people's intention are. It is called common-sense. Your reason of starting this topic here in Urdu forum is ONLY against Pakistan, and is not intended as an Islamic topic. It is obvious from your posts about how you have given "hope" for Pakistan.


So if I had posted the same posting under another alias, would have rebutted it on logical grounds? or you would attacked the poster as usual?

This is internet, stop being personal, try to start addressing the questions, and *admit* if you don't have answers.


It is YOU who started this thread with a clear intention to criticize Pakistan as a country, and so you will be discussed for sure. And if you need answers then go ask Nasrallah and Iran.


And what's best to counter me than to refute me on logical grounds?


Your questions don't make sense.

Meaning they don't make sense to you or in general?

Apparently others have tried to participate.


For starters, your ILLOGICAL and INDECENT anti-Pakistan questions is answered by the CREDIBLE SOURCE of Nasrallah when he called himself a LEBANESE.


hizb has also thanked openly Iran and syria for their cooperation during the current crisis.

Btw, you seriously think you can refute my logic by bringing up, of all the people, the example of Nasrallah???? And that on Shiachat?

Hizbullah is a classic example of pan-shiism. I will be amazed if you didn't know this before. In fact, it has become an icon of pan-ISLAMISM lately.

Hizb proves my points more forcefully than any other phenomenon, and I wonder why you had to mention it in the first place?

To make it easier for you: Here's what's hizbullah's own flag reads, in case you didn't know:

Ath-thoratul/muwaqamatul ISLAMIYA fi labnan

now tell me, what comes first here - lebanon or islam?


Yeah. And there is no point in shooting a country with your keyboard either.

Sorry but I don't believe a term 'shooting the country' exists.

PS. I have PMed you to lay off personal insults, CCed Peer on that. Urdu kee baat hay toe urdu walon main rahay, As for behess, wo jitni chaho kar lo, yeh forum hay he issy liyeh..

Edited by ShahLatif, 04 September 2006 - 02:48 PM.




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