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taqleed


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#1 syed_shia

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 07:01 PM

(salam)

Got a question regarding following scholars and doing taqleed...

When did TAQLEED actually start?

Did imam khomeini actually start or re-start this?

who were the scholars that were taqleed worthy before imam khomeini.

I know abt the representatives of imam mehdi (as) , so no need to mentionm that lol.

jazakalaah

#2 Orion

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 09:56 PM

(bismillah)

(salam)

(When did TAQLEED actually start?


Taqlid started the day when a layman followed an expert in religious maters (fiqh).

Did imam khomeini actually start or re-start this?


No. People used to do Taqlid before Imam Khomeini (qas) . Even is places like Pakistan books of fatwas of great scholars called "Tohfatul Awam" was very popular.

who were the scholars that were taqleed worthy before imam khomeini.



Great scholars like Ayatullah Mohsin al-Hakim, Ayatullah Burujardi, Ayatullah Abul Hasan Isfehani among others.

If you need to know more about our great scholars of the past go to this link:

http://al-islam.org/fiqh/chap2.html

WS

Edited by Orion, 21 August 2006 - 10:03 PM.


#3 Rawshni

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Posted 22 August 2006 - 09:15 AM

^

Can someone pin point the exact era when it was ennunciated that one has to adpt one of three avaialble courses. i.e.

1. Either become a mojtehed

2. Be Mohtaat

3. Do Taqleed

Like say who was the first mojtehed to formulate and announce this principle, and when did he do it?

#4 fyst

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Posted 22 August 2006 - 11:09 AM

Like say who was the first mojtehed to formulate and announce this principle

i believe it was Allah (though i wouldn't really call Him a "mujtahid").


". . . ask the followers of the Reminder if you do not know." [16:43]


so, if a person does not know the answer to certain issues, then he has to resort to the opinions of the "followers of the Reminder" (i.e., do taqleed of an 'alam mujtahid). of course, he himself could be a follower of the Reminder (mujtahid), in which case he would know the answer already, and wouldn't have to ask another. or, finally, he could try to adjust his life in such a manner that he never comes across any situation where he doesn't know the answer to an issue he's being confronted with (i.e., do ihtiyaat).



and when did he do it?

not sure about the exact date, but it was quite a long time ago.

#5 syed_shia

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Posted 22 August 2006 - 03:00 PM

so did people do taqleed for example with sheik sadooq the same way were doing taqleed with sistani?

#6 sajid naqvi

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Posted 22 August 2006 - 07:11 PM

(salam)

Please read this brief history of Taqleed and ijthehaad.


History of Ijthehad


In the book "Khisal" by Allama Mohd Baqar Kamraie Volume 4 Page 57. Allama says, "By the end of the 4th century Hijri, Shias only had Quran, Ahadees-e-Rasool [as] and the traditions of Masoomeen which were the bases of "Hukm -e-Sharia" but when Shias started following the patterns of Aama (Ahl-e-Sunna ) writing books on Usool-e-Fiqh which were away from the traditions, they also included "Ijma and Daleel-e-Aqal" in from Ahl-e-Sunnah into Usool-e-Fiqh for Shias. When they realised that Ijma and Daleel-e-Aql are against the Maktab-e-Ahlul Bait , they got busy in doing "Taujeeh & Taweel" and started saying that from Ijmah we mean Traditions of Masoom and "Aql". The use of "Fikr Araie" in "Masael-e-Usooli" resulted in the inclusion of Qayas in the name of "Tanqeeh" in Shia'ism."

one of the mujhtahid-e-Fiqh has said this in his book Rozatul Janat Fi Ahwalil Ullama 'o' Saadaat by Allama Syed Mohd Baqar Moosvi Khwansari. Allama says and I qoute

"Mohd ibn -e- Junaid was a resident of Baghdad and was given a 'Laqab', QATIB. He is the first person who added the foundations of Ijtehad in Shi'ism and for Ehkam-e-Shariat he accepted the Sunni's Usool-e-Fiqh. He lived in the same time as Mohammed bin Yaqoob-e-Kalni. Both of the above are called Two Qadeemi Fiqiyas by present day Fiqiyas, and the first person to accept the inclusion of Qayas 'o' Zan was Toosi .

The author further says that "Ibn Junaid has given many instructions against Yaqoob-e-Kalni - The author further confirms that Mohd bin Ahmed bin Junaid & Hassan bin Abi Aqueel NAumani were infact the first two persons to import Usool-e-Fiqh and the process of Ijtehad which is based on Qayas o Zan from Ahl-e-Sunnat sect of Islam.

Then came Shaikh Mufeed who favoured the idea of Zan & Qayas of Ibn-e-Junaid over the traditions of Imam which were quoted by Janab Yaqoob-e-Kalni. Sheikh Mufeed along with his followers spread the idea of Qayas & Zan and forwarded it to the next generation of Ullamas (The followers of Sheikh Mufeed included Shaikh Toosi and Syed Murtaza). It went on like this till Allama Hilli who made the rules which were brought in from Ahl-e-Sunnat as Compulsory and then Shaheed-e-Awwal and Shaheed -e-Saani adopted the very idea even strongly.



#7 Mureeda Nafeez

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Posted 22 August 2006 - 08:02 PM

i believe it was Allah (though i wouldn't really call Him a "mujtahid").
". . . ask the followers of the Reminder if you do not know." [16:43]


Hullo, that verse is for the Ahlul Bayt (as) and them alone. That is why people weren't supposed to follow the caliphate of Abu bakr and Umar.

#8 fyst

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Posted 22 August 2006 - 11:27 PM

that verse is for the Ahlul Bayt (as) and them alone

not for them alone. in their absence it refers to their representatives.

#9 Link

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 12:20 AM

(salam)

Some of that verse applies to scholars, but not all of it. At the end, it is still particular to Ma'asomeen (as). Because at higher stages of believers, only Imam (as) can be sought for guidance. The verse does imply to ask scholars for us layman, but at it also meant for mutaqeen in which it is particular to seeking guidance of the Imam (as).


Tabatabai (qas) says the following (from http://al-islam.org/...abatabai_4.htm)


The preceptors are also of two types: General and special. The general preceptor is he who is not responsible for guiding any particular individual. People seek his guidance considering him to be a learned and experienced man. The Qur'an says: Ask those who know (the Ahlul-Thiker) if you do not know. Such preceptors can be helpful only in the beginning of spiritual journey. When the spiritual traveler begins to view the manifestations of the glory of essence and attributes of Allah, he no longer needs to have a general preceptor. The special preceptor is he about whom a divine ordinance exists to the effect that he has been assigned the job of guidance. This position is held only by the Holy Prophet and his rightful successors. Their guidance and company are essential and indispensable not only at every stage of spiritual journey, but even after the spiritual traveler has reached his destination. The nature of this company is esoteric not physical for the real nature of the Imam is that station of his luminosity, the authority of which extends to everyone and everything in the world. Although Imams body is also superior to the body of everyone else, yet the source of his authority over the universe is not his body. To explain this point it may be mentioned that whatever happens in this world, its source is the names and attributes of Allah, and the same Divine names and attributes are the essence of the Imam also. That is why the Imams have said: "Allah is known through us and he is worshipped through us." Therefore, it may rightly be said that whatever stages the spiritual traveler traverses, he covers them in the light of the Imam, and every position to which he advances, that position is controlled by the Imam. Throughout his journey the spiritual traveler enjoys the company of the Imam and remains associated with him. Even after reaching his destination, he needs the company of the Imam, for it is the Imam who teaches him the rules that are to be observed in the World of Divinity. Therefore, Imam's company is essential at every stage of spiritual journey. In this connection there are many subtle points which are not easy to be explained. They may be discovered by the spiritual traveler through his own taste.

ws

Edited by Link, 23 August 2006 - 12:31 AM.


#10 Orion

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 12:36 AM

(bismillah)

(salam)

It is common sence that those who dont know should ask those who know. A sick person has to seek the expert advise of a doctor. A person wanting to construct a building has to hire an architect and so on. In our everyday life we do Taqlid of others all the time.

Naturally if I am an expert myself, I may not need to go to others. But in matters in which I am less knowledgeable I have to go to those who are more knowledgeable.

Naturaly during major occultation (unfortunately) we dont know our Imam (as) and thus we cannot seek his (direct) replies to our everyday problems. In this situation we go to relegious experts who have spent their lives in learning the teachings of Ahlul Bait (as) to solve our problems.

Luckily our Imams (as) were aware of this problem and have given us the critaria of the scholars that we should follow.

Imam Jafar al ­Sadiq (as) said: "Whichever of the fuqaha can protect his self, who can preserve his religion, who fights his desires and is obedient to the commands of his Master, should be followed by the people in Taqlid".


WS

Can someone pin point the exact era when it was ennunciated that one has to adpt one of three avaialble courses. i.e.

1. Either become a mojtehed

2. Be Mohtaat

3. Do Taqleed

Like say who was the first mojtehed to formulate and announce this principle, and when did he do it?


Rawshni its common sence. Who said that if you are sick:

-Treat yourself if you are a qualified doctor.
-Be on the safe side and follow the advise that no doctor disagrees to.
-Follow the advise of a qualified doctor.

WS

#11 Mureeda Nafeez

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 12:53 AM

not for them alone. in their absence it refers to their representatives.


(bismillah)
(salam)

There is no representative of Imam Mahdi.

#12 fyst

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 02:53 AM

There is no representative of Imam Mahdi.

our Imams disagree:


As the basis of the fuqaha assuming the duty to do ijtihaad and issue
verdicts Dr. Hussain cites the following traditions:

Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã The 12th Imam (a.s.) issued a pronouncement in reply to Ishaq bin
Yaqub via second safir: As for the events which will occur (after
ghayba-e-kubra), turn to the narrators of our traditions, because they
are my proof to you
, while I am the proof of Allah to them.
"

(b.) The eleventh Imam said: "It is obligatory for the populace to follow
the jurist
who refrains from committing wrong, mentions his faith,
opposes carnal desire and obeys Allah's command."

(c.) Al-Tabarsi reports the transmission from the tenth Imam: "After the
occultation of your Qaim a group of the 'ulemah will call upon people to
believe in al-Qaim's imamah and defend his religion by using proofs sent
by Allah
, so that they might save the weak minded faithful from either
the deceptions of Shaitan or the deceptions of those opposed Hadhrat Ali
(A.S.)

http://www.al-islam....k/msg00305.html

#13 Orion

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 04:42 AM

Some of that verse applies to scholars, but not all of it. At the end, it is still particular to Ma'asomeen (as). Because at higher stages of believers, only Imam (as) can be sought for guidance. The verse does imply to ask scholars for us layman, but at it also meant for mutaqeen in which it is particular to seeking guidance of the Imam (as).
Tabatabai (qas) says the following (from http://al-islam.org/...abatabai_4.htm)
The preceptors are also of two types: General and special. The general preceptor is he who is not responsible for guiding any particular individual. People seek his guidance considering him to be a learned and experienced man. The Qur'an says: Ask those who know (the Ahlul-Thiker) if you do not know. Such preceptors can be helpful only in the beginning of spiritual journey. When the spiritual traveler begins to view the manifestations of the glory of essence and attributes of Allah, he no longer needs to have a general preceptor. The special preceptor is he about whom a divine ordinance exists to the effect that he has been assigned the job of guidance. This position is held only by the Holy Prophet and his rightful successors. Their guidance and company are essential and indispensable not only at every stage of spiritual journey, but even after the spiritual traveler has reached his destination. The nature of this company is esoteric not physical for the real nature of the Imam is that station of his luminosity, the authority of which extends to everyone and everything in the world. Although Imams body is also superior to the body of everyone else, yet the source of his authority over the universe is not his body. To explain this point it may be mentioned that whatever happens in this world, its source is the names and attributes of Allah, and the same Divine names and attributes are the essence of the Imam also. That is why the Imams have said: "Allah is known through us and he is worshipped through us." Therefore, it may rightly be said that whatever stages the spiritual traveler traverses, he covers them in the light of the Imam, and every position to which he advances, that position is controlled by the Imam. Throughout his journey the spiritual traveler enjoys the company of the Imam and remains associated with him. Even after reaching his destination, he needs the company of the Imam, for it is the Imam who teaches him the rules that are to be observed in the World of Divinity. Therefore, Imam's company is essential at every stage of spiritual journey. In this connection there are many subtle points which are not easy to be explained. They may be discovered by the spiritual traveler through his own taste.


(bismillah)

(salam)

The topic of this thread is Taqlid (regarding fiqh issues) and not Irfan (spiritual journey).

WS

#14 sayedzeeshan

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 04:47 AM

(salam)

There is a book on al-islam website Fiqh and fuqaha (al-islam.org/fiqh)

Chapter 2 is about shia fuqaha. Some of it is quoted below:

SHIA FUQAHA

For two obvious reasons, we have to begin the history of Shia FUQAHA from the era of GHAYBATeSUGHRA, i.e. minor occultation. (260 AH 329 AH). First, the era preceding GHAYBAT-eSUGHRA is an era during which the holy Imams were present, and although there were many men of knowledge and accomplishments who were trained by the Imams themselves, people always tried their best to refer to the Imams rather then to the Ulama. Even the Ulama travelled far and wide to reach the Imams, so as to solve the problems they faced. Thus, in the era when Imams were present and accessible, other scholars were eclipsed. Secondly, the literature we have at our disposal on FIQH commences from the era of GHAYBATe-SUGHRA. We cannot trace, or rather are unable to trace, any literature compiled on the subject in the earlier era.


However, many great FUQAHA lived in the period of our holy Imams, and they are well known for their distinction and excellence when compared to their contemporaries from other schools of thought. Ibn alNadeem in his famous ALFIHRIST has a complete chapter on the FUQAHA of Shia, and mentions their works on FIQH or Hadith with deep reverence. For example, for Husain b. Saeed Ahwazi, he says: " In his time, he had the widest knowledge of FIQH, Islamic Traditions and Ethics". Similarly, he eulogises Ali b. Ibrahim Qummi by saying: "He is among the great scholars and FUQAHA". Again, when mentioning Muhammad b. Hasan b. Ahmed b. alWaleed Qummi, he says: "To his credit is the great and comprehensive work on FIQH".


It must be known that the works on FIQH to which reference has been made above were of a different nature. They were principally compilation of those Hadith which they believed to be sound and authentic and according to which they acted. So, they can safely be categorised as the books of Hadith bearing a stamp of the writers' considered opinions.


Muhaqqiq Hilli, the maternal uncle and teacher of Allama Hilli writes:


"In view of the fact that we have a great number of FUQAHA who have copiously written on the subject, it is not possible for me to quote all of them. I have selected from those who were best known for their research and scholarship, quoting their Ijtehad, and the opinions they adopted for action. From amongst the earlier ones, I have selected Hasan b. Mahboob, Ahmed b. Abi Nasr Bezanti, Husain b. Saeed Ahwazi, Fadhl b. Shadhan Nisaburi, Yunus b. Abd alRahman. They lived during the presence of our Imams. From the later group, I quote Muhammad b. Babawayh Qummi (popularly known as Shaikh Sadooq) and Muhammad b. Yaqoob Kulaini. As for the people of Fatwa, I consider the verdicts of Askafi, Ibn Abi Aqeel, Shaikh Mufeed, Seyyid Murtadha Alamul Huda and Shaikh Tusi."


Evidently, Muhaqqiq Hilli, despite his high regard for the earlier Ulama and for their independent opinions, excludes them from those who he calls "the people of Fatwa". This is because the earlier Ulama wrote books in the form of collections of Hadith, indirectly indicating their opinions and verdicts by the selection of those Traditions which they considered sound. Their works never came out in the form of clear and direct fatwa.


Now we will mention the Juristconsults of the early period; those who witnessed GhaybateSughra:


l. Ali b. Babawayh Qummi, died in 329 AH., and was buried in Qum. His son, the famous Shaikh Sadooq is buried in the city of RAY. What must be noted is that while the son is famous as MUHADDITH (TRADIONIST), the father is a renowned FAQIH, and a man of FATWA.


You can read the complete chapter at: http://al-islam.org/fiqh/chap2.html

#15 haideriam

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 10:47 AM

(bismillah)
(salam)
why is it that when we are really sick, we do not treat ourselves although we might know a lot about disease and medication, but find it very easy to become mujtahids after having read a few books or having listened to a few 'worldly orators'.
smacks of hypocracy.
and moreso when we take no note of the sayings of the aimah (as) , even when they have been clearly brought to our attention.

'neem hakeem khatra e jaan
neem mula khatra e iman'

why only act on the first line when both are equally relevant

#16 SpIzo

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 11:17 AM

so did people do taqleed for example with sheik sadooq the same way were doing taqleed with sistani?


Actually, people in those times did not have an iota of doubt regarding taqleed [that they had to follow a jurist] in Furu'e Deen. It is only now [as of lately] that people started doubting the concept of taqleed.

And to prove that people did follow the mujtahids in the past, here's an incident:-

Mirza Muhammed Tankaabuni (r.a.) has recorded a Tawqi which is based on a strange incident. Over here we have extracted only the relevant portion from the incident. Marhum Tankaabuni narrates, "A person from the suburbs of Baghdad approached Shaikh Mufeed (r.a.) to seek the solution of a vexing problem. He asked, "A pregnant woman has expired but her child is alive in the womb, what do you say? Should the foetus be removed through surgery or be buried along with the woman?'"

Shaikh Mufeed (r.a.) replied, "Bury the mother along with the foetus." On getting the reply, the man left for his village. On the way, a horse rider crossed his path. He asked the man to halt and said, 'Shaikh Mufeed (r.a.) has said that the foetus should be removed from the womb through surgery and then the woman be buried alone.'"

The person accepted it and acted on it.

After some time, the man came to Baghdad and narrated the incident to Shaikh Mufeed (r.a.). Shaikh Mufeed (r.a.) said, 'I did not send anybody with this edict. It seems that the person was Imam-e-Asr (a.t.f.s.) (who gave the edict)'. Shaikh Mufeed (r.a.) says, "After this (wrong edict) I am not capable of giving edicts and undertaking the responsibility of Marjaeyyat. After that day I closed the doors of my house and told the people to no longer seek solutions of their problems from me. It was not long before I received a letter from Imam (a.t.f.s.) in which he (a.t.f.s.) wrote:

"You give edicts, we will save you from mistakes and errors. We will not desert you to commit mistakes.'"

http://www.almuntaza...php?article=210

And also, apart from the verse fyst posted, here's another one:

[9:122] And it does not beseem the believers that they should go forth all together; why should not then a company from every party from among them go forth that they may apply themselves to obtain understanding in religion, and that they may warn their people when they come back to them that they may be cautious.

The special representatives of Imam al-Mahdi [atf] in Ghaibat-e-Sughra were appointed for a special purpose [and also during the time of other Imams such as Imam Baqer and Imam Sadeq [as]]. So that people may become accustomed to the methods [as shown] in getting solutions to their problems during the [physical] absense of an Imam [as].

Edited by SpIzo, 23 August 2006 - 12:30 PM.


#17 sajid naqvi

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 01:22 PM

(salam)

Does a Mujtahid not get ill ?

if he does then surely he also has to do Taqleed, according to your line of thinking.


Present a SINGLE ayat with Tafseer proving the neccessity of Taqlid of a Mujtahid ?

#18 Gypsy

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Posted 23 August 2006 - 03:19 PM

(salam)
Why Taqleed? Please refer to this thread
http://www.shiachat....showtopic=22319

I am closing this thread because we already have hundreds of similar such topics.
http://www.shiachat....showtopic=12651

Please search the forum for other similar thread.




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