Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
salman

Why is Jesus called the Messiah?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

BISMILLAH

Salaam,

I had the following questions.

I'm a muslim who was born and raised in a Muslim Family. For over six years I have been hugely involved in comparative religion. I need some sincere answers to the following questions, since I feel in Islam there are some things that don't entirely seem rational. I have also been meeting with lots of apostates of Islam whose works I have been reading and can't seem to cogently refute. I've attached them at the end of question 10. Please

provide me with your DETAILED feedback.

1) Isn't it true that Hakima, daughter of Imam Mohammed Taqi (AS), was the ONLY person

to witness the birth of the twelfth Imam (AS) ? Please refer to "Ghaiba" by Shaikh Toosi, tradition# 204 by Hahimia bint Muhammed

2) Do any authentic Hadith's exist that say Jesus was not the Messiah (The annointed one)?

Please provide authentic Hadith.

3) Do any authentic Hadith's exist that say Jesus was not the promised lamb of God ?

Please provide authentic Hadith.

4) Do any authentic Hadith's exist that say Jesus was not the promised redeemer of Sin ?

Please provide authentic Hadith.

5) Do any authentic Hadith's exist that say Jesus (Ruh-Allah) was not the person God was going to sacrifice as Abraham was going to sacrifice his son?

6) Muslims claim that Jesus was only sent for the lost sheep of Israel whereas Imam Mehdi is going to be the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD. If this is true then what is the purpose of Jesus coming down with Imam Mehdi to begin with?

7) Before Jesus came to the Jews, they already use to follow the Torah. Also they already believed in one God. Between Moses and Jesus lots of Prophets came to the Jews such as Aaron, Ezekiel, David, Solomon, Elijah, Elisha, Jonah, Zecharias & John. Hence before Jesus arrived, the Jews already believed in one God, the God of Abraham. What was so different that Jesus said because of which he was sentenced to crucifixion ?

8) Muslims claim that the son Abraham was going to sacrifice was Ishmael and not Isaac. If this is so, then why were all the Prophets after Abraham until Jesus descendants of Isaac ?

9) In Shia Islam, is the punishment of Apostacy "death"?

Please provide authentic evidence.

10) It is reported in Hadith's that when Imam Mehdi arrives, he'll go to war with SOME Sunni and Shia aalims. What is going to be so different about Imam Mehdi's beliefs?

As a result of my intensive research, I found some attributes of Christ that even Christians did not deal with in their books. For example:

1) The ability to create:

The Qur'an says,

"That is Allah, your Lord! There is no god but He, the Creator of all things" (Surah 6:102)

"For verily it is thy Lord who is the All-Creator, knowing all things" (Surah 15:86)

"Those on whom, besides Allah, ye call, cannot create (even) a fly, if they all met together for the purpose" (Surah 22:73)

"Those whom they invoke besides Allah create nothing and are themselves created" (Surah 16:20)

"Is then he who creates like one that creates not?" (Surah 16:17)

These are but some of the verses that restrict the ability to create to God only. When God wanted to distinguish Himself from other gods, He highlighted this attribute of His that surpassed all other gods. Meanwhile, the Qur'an clearly admits that Christ created things:

"I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave" (Surah 3:49)

"Thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by my leave, and thou breathest into it, and it becometh a bird by my leave" (Surah 5:110)

When I read these verses, I thought in my heart: it was God who gave Christ this ability; it was not part of His essence even though, Christ was the only One on whom God bestowed one of His divine attributes. Why Christ and not Mohammed? God said to Mohammed,

"Canst thou cause the deaf to hear the call?" (Surah 27:80),

which is a lot easier than creation. God did not give Mohammed, the best of His people and the Seal of the Prophets, the ability to make the deaf hear. He challenged people to create a fly ,but gave Christ the ability to create birds. Birds are small creatures, but it is not a matter of size, but of principle. He who creates a small creature can create a big one. This cannot be of man, but of God.

2) Knowing what is hidden:

God spoke of Himself in the Qur'an,

"Say: none in the heaven or on earth, except Allah, knows what is hidden" (Surah 27:65),

"With Him are the keys to the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He" (Surah 6:59).

In the first verse, the Qur'an emphasizes beyond any doubt that knowing what is hidden belongs only to God and nobody else. The second verse underlines the fact that only God knows the unseen and the future.

Meanwhile, the Qur'an teaches about Mohammed that he used to rebuke anyone who attributed to him the ability to know what was hidden,

"Say: I tell you not that with me are the treasures of Allah, nor do I know what is hidden" (Surah 6:50).

One time Moaz said to Mohammed, "… if Allah wills and you will", and Mohammed interrupted him saying, "How could you make me equivalent to Allah? No one in heaven or on earth knows what is hidden but Allah."

As for Christ, we find all limitations removed. He knows and does what every other person cannot. The Qur'an says,

"And I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses" (Surah 3:49).

It is very unusual that in these verses Christ speaks in the first person; it must be God himself speaking . On the other hand, Mohammed was always told what to 'say'. Christ was unique because He spoke of himself, which means that His abilities were His and not acquired.

In Beginning and End by Ibn Kathir, part 2 and page 86, I read a story that made me ashamed. It was a proof beyond any doubt that Christ possessed supernatural powers to know what was hidden. (It is a long story; those interested may refer to the book by Ibn Kathir).

3) Healing the sick:

The Qur'an mentions Abraham's words that God is the only healer,

"And when I am ill, it is He who cures me" (Surah 26:80).

Mohammed said in an authentic Hadith, "Oh, Allah, there is no healing but yours." Meanwhile, in the Qur'an we find Christ saying about Himself,

"I heal those born blind, and the lepers" (Surah 3:49)

4) Giving life and death:

God is the only One who holds life and death in His hand; no one else can give life or death. The Qur'an says,

"And verily, it is We Who give life and Who give death;: it is We Who remain inheritors (after all else passes away)" (Surah 15:23),

"Verily, We shall give life to the dead, and We record that which they leave behind" (Surah 36:12),

"Verily it is We Who give Life and Death; and to Us is the Final Return" (Surah 50:43).

As for Christ, the Qur'an mentions that He said about Himself,

"And I bring the dead into life by Allah's leave." (Surah 3:49)

In his book Beginning and End, Ibn Kathir tells a verified story that proves Christ had the authority to give death as well as life. It is told that Christ saw a woman crying over her daughter, who had died long ago. He asked her, "What makes you cry, woman?" She said, "My daughter died and I have no more children." Christ asked her, "Would you like Me to raise her from the dead?" She said, "Yes, O Spirit of God!" So, Christ stood by the grave and called the girl three times. On the third time, the little girl came out and talked with her mother. Then the girl asked Christ to let her return. He told her, "Go back!" The grave closed and she was dead. (Beginning and End by Ibn Kathir, part 2, page 84)

5) Giving sustenance:

The Qur'an says,

"For Allah is He Who gives (all) sustenance, Lord of Power, Steadfast (for ever)" (Surah 51:58).

It is clearly stated that God is the only one who can give sustenance. God rebuked anyone who claimed the ability to give sustenance to people. As for Christ, Ibn Kathir mentioned that He had a special ability to give sustenance to whomever He wished. The best example was feeding the five thousand people with little bread and a couple of fish.

6) Matchlessness:

The Qur'an says about God,

"There is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees" (Surah 42:11).

As for Christ, it goes without saying that He is matchless. He was born from a virgin without a man. He was the only One described as 'God's Word and a Spirit from Him'. He was the only One over whom Satan did not have any authority. He was the only One who had divine characteristics. Also out of all the people who have had a miraculous entry into this world, he was the only one to have a miraculous exit. Also in Chapter 28 (Qasas) Moses asks forgiveness for his faults, in chapter 38 (as-Sad) we see David and Solomon asking forgiveness for their faults, in chapter 47 verse 19 and and chapter 48 verse 2 Mohammed sins had to be forgiven. Also in "The Quran: When was it Compiled?" (http://www.shirazi.org.uk/the%20quran%20when%20was%20it.pdf) by Ayotllah shirazi on page 11 that Mohammed sins had to be forgiven. That means Mohammed to was Guilty of Sin if Allah wouldn't forgive him. However, no where can I find that Jesus ever sinned!! After all this should come as no surprise, since he wasn't from Adam unlike EVERYONE else!! Remember in Surah 4 verse 171...Allah says Jesus was spirit proceeding from HIM!!

7) Commanding authority:

The Qur'an mentions this attribute of God,

"For anything which We have willed, We but say 'Be', and it is" (Surah 16:40),

"When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: 'Be,' and it is" (Surah 2:117).

This is a unique attribute of God, being able to call something into existence. According to Ibn Kathir, Christ manifested this attribute when He changed the water into wine (Beginning and End by Ibn Kathir, part 1, page 85).

8) His throne over the waters:

The Qur'an says about God's throne,

"And His throne was over the waters that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct" (Surah 11:7).

Kortobi and El-Hadathi said that this verse also applied to Christ, whose throne was made by God on the water in order to test people's faith. Christ walked on the Sea of Tiberias towards His disciples in order to test their faith. He later said to them, "You of little faith." (Matt. 8: 26)

9) Judge and Ruler:

The Qur'an says about God,

"The Command rests with none but Allah: He declares the Truth, and He is the best of judges" (Surah 6:57),

"Hold yourselves in patience until Allah doth decide between us: for He is the best to decide" (Surah 7:87).

El-Bokhary explained that he heard from Ibn Abbas, who had heard the Prophet Mohammed saying about Christ, "The Last Day will not come until the son of Mary comes back as a fair Judge to administer justice and wipe out injustice."

10) A grasp over all visions:

The Qur'an says about God,

"No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision; He is subtle well-aware." (Surah 6:103)

This is another attribute of God that Christ manifested. Ibn Kathir and Kortobi told a story that Christ was one day on a mountain and the Romans wanted to arrest Him . He went right through them and they could not see Him, but He saw them all. (Sects and Denominations by Sheheristani, page 27)

11) Most Gracious and Most Merciful:

The Qur'an says,

"And your God is one God: there is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful" (Surah 2:163),

"Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to the Most Gracious as a servant." (Surah 19:93)

In their books Sects and Denominations and Proofs of Prophet-hood, Sheheristani and Azraki mentioned that Christ was after the image of God. He was compassionate. He raised the daughter of Jairus from the dead and healed many sick people . He created eyes to the born blind by putting mud on the man's eyes because that's how God created in the beginning.

12) Speaks in Parables:

The Qur'an states that only God can speak in Parables.

"Allah doth set forth Parables for men: and Allah doth know all things" (Surah 24:35)

"So Allah sets forth Parables for men, in order that they may receive admonition" (Surah 14:25)

In 'El-Kashaf', Ibn Kathir, Kortobi and Zamakhshary say that God used parables to bring people closer to Him, and so did Christ. The New Testament is full of parables that no other prophet told.

13) Sends messengers and gives them power:

The Qur'an says,

"Set forth to them, by way of a parable, the (story of) the Companions of the City. Behold, there came messengers to it. When We (first) sent to them two messengers, they rejected them, but We strengthened them with a third" (Surah 36:13)

Ibn Kathir and all interpreters agreed that the mentioned city was Antioch, and the men were messengers of Christ. They had authority from Christ. What other Man has such authority? Also see Shia tafseer by Aqa Mehdi Pooya & Mir Mohammed Ali available on www.al-islam.org for this verse.

14) To be worshipped:

The Qur'an says,

"The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the Son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say… they take their priests and anchorites to be their lords beside Allah, and Christ the son of Mary" (Surah 9:30)

Ibn Kotaiba sees this as a problematic verse, because it puts worshipping God and Christ as a commandment. So, Ibn Kotaiba thought in order to avoid this problem ,the phrase 'Christ the son of Mary' should be syntactically interpreted as a 'second object' to the verb 'take' and not an 'annexment' to the word 'Allah'. This way the verse would not support the Christian view of Christ's deity.

15) Comes in clouds:

The Qur'an says,

"Will they wait until Allah comes to them in canopies of clouds?" (Surah 2:210)

Ibn El-Fadl El-Hadathi said that this verse referred to Christ who would come back on the Last Day on clouds. He also interpreted the following verse as referring to Christ too,

"And thy Lord cometh, and His angels, rank upon rank" (Surah 89:22)

16) In the Quran we read many Prophets including Mohammed asking the forgiveness of his faults. However no where does it state that Jesus ever

had to ask for forgiveness of his faults.

17) How could an innocent person die for sinners? "No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another" (Surah 17:15)

I was trying to refute the idea of 'Sacrificial Death' when I came across the following verse in the Qur'an,

"And remember Moses said to his people: 'O my people! Ye have indeed wronged yourselves by your worship of the calf: So turn (in repentance) to your Maker, and slay yourselves (the wrong-doers); that will be better for you in the sight of your Maker." (Surah 2:54)

I read Ibn Kathir's interpretation of this verse. He said that the Israelites wanted to repent of their sin of worshipping the calf, but God did not accept their repentance. When Moses mediated, God told him to tell the Israelites that the only way to get forgiveness was that each man should kill everybody he met. It is said that they put on blindfolds so they would not have mercy on their families but would have the courage to obey God's order . Ibn Kathir said that at least seventy thousands were killed that day, and blood ran like a stream. When God saw it was enough, He told Moses to tell the Israelites to stop. God accepted their repentance through the blood of those who died . If someone did not worship the calf and died as atonement for those who did, why would we reject the idea that the sinless Christ died for sinners, and that He was still alive?

18) Also in the quran verse 157 of sura Nisa'ah can be interpreted in many different ways. It is true...they (the Jews) did not kill him neither crucified him....because the Romans did. Also it was made to appear to them. How do we know that he didn't die and hence wasn't crucifed ? That's because he appeared again on Sunday Morning!!

19) Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, TO THE DAY OF RESURRECTION: Then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute." S. 3:55

O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: as said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the Disciples, "We are Allah's helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, AND THEY BECAME THE ONES THAT PREVAILED. S. 61:14

Noted Muslim commentator Ibn Kathir's statements are most interesting. Commenting on S. 3:55, he writes:

"This is what happened. When Allah raised 'Isa to heaven, his followers divided into sects and groups. Some of them believed in what Allah sent 'Isa as, a servant of Allah, His Messenger, and the son of His female-servant.

However, some of them went to the extreme over 'Isa, believing that he was the son of Allah. Some of them said that 'Isa was Allah Himself, while others said that he was one of a Trinity. Allah mentioned these false creeds in the Qur'an and refuted them. The Christians remained like this until the third century CE, when a Greek king called, Constantine, became a Christian for the purpose of destroying Christianity. Constantine was either a philosopher, or he was just plain ignorant. Constantine changed the religion of 'Isa by adding to it and deleting from it. He established the rituals of Christianity and the so-called Great Trust which is in fact the Great Treachery. He also allowed them to eat the meat of swine, changed the direction of the prayer that 'Isa established to the east, built churches for 'Isa, and added ten days to the fast as compensation for a sin that he committed, as claimed. So the religion of 'Isa became the religion of Constantine, who built more than twelve thousand churches, temples and monasteries for the Christians as well as the city that bears his name, Constantinople (Istanbul). THROUGHOUT THIS TIME, the Christians had the upper hand and dominated the Jews. Allah AIDED THEM AGAINST THE JEWS BECAUSE THEY USED TO BE CLOSER TO THE TRUTH THAN THE JEWS, even though both groups were and still are disbelievers, may Allah's curse descend on them." (Tafsir Ibn Kathir (Abridged), Volume 2, Parts 3, 4, & 5 (Surat Al-Baqarah, Verse 253, to Surat An-Nisa, Verse 147), abridged by a group of scholars under the supervision of Shaykh Safiur-Rahman Al-Mubarakpuri [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors Riyadh, Houston, New York, Lahore; First Edition: March 2000], p. 171; bold and capital emphasis ours; cf. online edition)

Another renowned commentary, Al-Qurtubi, says of Surah 61:14:

It was said that THIS VERSE was revealed about the apostles of Jesus, may peace and blessing be upon him. Ibn Ishaq stated that of the apostles and disciples that Jesus sent (to preach) there were Peter AND PAUL who went to Rome; Andrew and Matthew who went to the land of the cannibals; Thomas who went to Babel in the eastern lands; Philip who went to Africa; John went to Dac-sos which is the tribe to whom the sleepers of the cave belonged; Jacob went to Jerusalem; Bartholomew went to the lands of Arabia, specifically Al-Hijaz; Simon who went to the Barbarians; Judas and Barthas who went to Alexandria and its surrounding regions.

Allah supported them (the apostles) with evidence so that they prevailed (thahirin) meaning they became the party with the upper hand. Just as it is said, "An object appeared on the wall" meaning it is clearly visible (alu-wat) on the wall. Allah, who is glorified and exalted, knows the truth better and to Him is the return and retreat. (Source; translated into English by Dimitrius, bold and capital emphasis ours)

A Muslim may wish to argue that these verses refer to Muhammad and the Muslims as those who truly believe in Christ and dominate till the Resurrection Day. This explanation fails to resolve the issue. The passages do not say that Christ's followers would only prevail from the time of Muhammad's advent, but from the time that Christ was taken to God and unto the Day of Resurrection.

I earnestly ask all my muslim brothers to bring to mind the event of Mubahila. The only thing the ahlul-bayt ever argued with the christians was the "Son of God" issue. Could it be that the ahlul-bayt accepted all the other beliefs in christianity? After all in the end of Surah al-Maidah Allah only rebukes the Catholic belief in trinity "Allah, Jesus & Mary". However we all know that Jesus is flesh, in surah baqarah verse 253 he is excelled with the Ruh al-Qudus and in surah nisa verse 171 Allah says that Jesus was a Spirit proceeding from Him. I see a trinity here which Allah endorses (Jesus,Allah,Ruh al Qudus). One may argue that Ruah al-Qudus is Gabreal but according to surah al-qadr verse 4, we see that the Ruh and Malaika come down on the night of Al-Qadr. Gabreal was a Malaika. Ruh is something else!! What is it? Hard to tell...read surah 17 verse 85

Ma-as Salaam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

Br. I pray that Allah (swa) will increase your knowledge. Each issue that you would bring up would, in all fairness, requie it's own thread. If you did not write this post yourself then please provide the web address that you got it from so we can understand the quality of the information you are getting (seems to be low, or your study time has been wasted).

NOTE TO MEMBERS: If you are new to this site, try to read other posts before creating your own. Posts that are unfocused, overly ambitious and likely just cut and paste jobs from another website usually are ignored by most members. The reason is that we get spam from evangelical trolls all the time, and your post will likely be mistaken as such.

We, Muslims, will not waste our time looking for things like "hadith that say that Jesus (as) was not " the promised lamb of God" or that Jesus (as) was not "the promised redeemer of Sin" because the question is ridiculous and spurious on it's face. Anyone who understands even the basics of Islamic theology would understand why, others may be confused.

(bismillah)

" We gave Jesus(as), the son of Mary, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit"

2.87

" When the angels said: O Mary, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah)."

3.45

(P.S.- The Quran calls him "Al-Masi" (The Messiah), however, the meaning is in the context of Judaism, not Christianity)

" Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was."

3.59

" And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure."

4:59

" When Allah will say: O Jesus son of Mary! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission;"

5.110

Those are just a few examples, all of which refute some of the mistaken beliefs about Jesus(as) which Christians have historically held.

IF YOU WANT TO LEARN MORE , see: http://al-islam.org/jesus_shiite_narrations/

ALSO: http://al-islam.org/islaminthebible/index.htm

BOTH OF THE ABOVE SITES SHOULD BE INTERESTING TO A STUDENT OF COMPARITIVE RELIGION SUCH AS YOURSELF.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salman,

I appreciate your post above because it answers some questions that I have had.

I believe that Muhammad was God's messenger and that we should believe his endorcement of the Torah and Gospel. He said 'Jesus was of the truth' and that 'His was a Straight path.'

This was revealed to Muhammad in AD 625 and to me it says that everything Jesus said and did was true.

The following quote from above brings up a point that is usually overlooked, and I think this is a good time to mention it,

(Quote)

Another renowned commentary, Al-Qurtubi, says of Surah 61:14:

It was said that THIS VERSE was revealed about the apostles of Jesus, may peace and blessing be upon him. Ibn Ishaq stated that of the apostles and disciples that Jesus sent (to preach) there were Peter AND PAUL who went to Rome; Andrew and Matthew who went to the land of the cannibals; Thomas who went to Babel in the eastern lands; Philip who went to Africa; John went to Dac-sos which is the tribe to whom the sleepers of the cave belonged; Jacob went to Jerusalem; Bartholomew went to the lands of Arabia, specifically Al-Hijaz; Simon who went to the Barbarians; Judas and Barthas who went to Alexandria and its surrounding regions.

Jesus had said to the Apostles and followers, 'Go into all the world and preach the Gospel', (the good news of Salvation).

Jesus said this before He died and He commissioned the Apostles to 'Go', saying, 'Lo! I am with you always, even unto the end of the age.'

Had Jesus not died and rose again and fulfilled everything He said He was goiing to do, would the Apostles have continued to follow Him?

If anything about Jesus had been a lie or deception would the Apostles have followed Him to their death?

I believe all but the Apostle John were martyred in these other countries for their faith, and would they have died for a false cause? (I understand that 'doubting Thomas' was martyred in India).

A profound statement was made by the Greek teacher Gamaliel, a Pharisee, who, 'When the enraged Sanhedrin sought to slay the Apostles for their bold testimony to Christ, Gamaliel stood up in the council and urged judicious caution on the grounds that if the new doctrine were of God, they could not overthrow it, and if it were of man it would perish of itself.'

The great commission is still the same today to, 'Go into all the world and preach the Gospel', and it is done with God's blessing.

The verse 61:14 says, 'O ye who believe! Be God's helpers, even as Jesus son of Mary said unto the disciples: Who are my helpers for God? They said: We are God's helpers.'

A comparable verse is 3:52 which says, 'But when Jesus became conscious of their unbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of God? The disciples said: We will be God's helpers. We believe in God and bear thou witness that we have surrendered* unto Him.'

The * gives a footnote saying, 'or, are Muslims'.

Here the surrender unto God's will constitutes being Muslim, is that correct?

Placid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1) Isn't it true that Hakima, daughter of Imam Mohammed Taqi (as), was the ONLY person

to witness the birth of the twelfth Imam (as) ? Please refer to "Ghaiba" by Shaikh Toosi, tradition# 204 by Hahimia bint Muhammed

2) Do any authentic Hadith's exist that say Jesus was not the Messiah (The annointed one)?

Please provide authentic Hadith.

3) Do any authentic Hadith's exist that say Jesus was not the promised lamb of God ?

Please provide authentic Hadith.

4) Do any authentic Hadith's exist that say Jesus was not the promised redeemer of Sin ?

Please provide authentic Hadith.

5) Do any authentic Hadith's exist that say Jesus (Ruh-Allah) was not the person God was going to sacrifice as Abraham was going to sacrifice his son?

6) Muslims claim that Jesus was only sent for the lost sheep of Israel whereas Imam Mehdi is going to be the saviour of the WHOLE WORLD. If this is true then what is the purpose of Jesus coming down with Imam Mehdi to begin with?

7) Before Jesus came to the Jews, they already use to follow the Torah. Also they already believed in one God. Between Moses and Jesus lots of Prophets came to the Jews such as Aaron, Ezekiel, David, Solomon, Elijah, Elisha, Jonah, Zecharias & John. Hence before Jesus arrived, the Jews already believed in one God, the God of Abraham. What was so different that Jesus said because of which he was sentenced to crucifixion ?

8) Muslims claim that the son Abraham was going to sacrifice was Ishmael and not Isaac. If this is so, then why were all the Prophets after Abraham until Jesus descendants of Isaac ?

9) In Shia Islam, is the punishment of Apostacy "death"?

Please provide authentic evidence.

10) It is reported in Hadith's that when Imam Mehdi arrives, he'll go to war with SOME Sunni and Shia aalims. What is going to be so different about Imam Mehdi's beliefs?

I would suggest that you do more research into your religion, assuming you are truthful when you say you are Muslim. I will give you that benefit of the doubt. A lot of your questions should be quite reasonably answered by any competent scholar. Some of them are standard questions. I'll respond A BIT to some of the above points, but Ali Zaki is quite right that these sorts of huge, cookbook lists of questions make for ultimately useless and unfocussed threads.

Regarding number 2, your question is rather curious. The Qu'ran refers to Jesus as a Messiah. This is kind of Islam 101 sort of knowledge, and I'm confused as to why you think Islam denies this. However, I will redirect and ask you what was the traditional conception of Messiah, what the word meant. If Messiah is supposed to be some God man saviour, then why was King Cyrus of Persia called "Messiah" in the book of Daniel? (Check it out)

Three to five are kind of ridiculous from a logical perspective. You can't expect every little thing you can imagine to be explicitly stated to be false, and you can't reach the conclusion that an idea is approved of (positive affirmation) just because there's no explicit negative mention of the idea. It's bad logic.

Number 6 can be dealt with by speaking to your local sheikh. It's sort of a standard question. All the reasons why, Allahu alim, but most likely it is to reform Christians and Jews (of which he is Messiah) and draw them towards the banner of Imam Mehdi.

Number 7: Jesus claimed to be the Messiah. That is, he claimed to be the legitimate successor to the throne of Israel, a leader both religious, military, and political. He was poised to gather his people together and overthrow the Romans. Executions were not under the authority of the Jews in occupied Judea; they were under the authority of Romans. Only Roman authorities could order an execution. Do you think they would care about religious issues? No. They cared about revolutionary leaders who threatened the status quo. One of Jesus's companions was called a "Zealot" in the NT. Another was called a "Sicarii." Both of these organizations were militant organizations dedicated to the emancipation of Judea, with violence if necessary. You do the math.

Number 8 is refuted on a few levels. First of all are inconsistencies in the Genesis accounts of Abraham and his sons. To be fair, it cannot be said that the Genesis account confirms outright the Muslim account. What it does however, is contain, within certain ambiguous passages that show the traces of human scissors and paste, traces of the Islamic account in addition to the Jewish account. E.g., Islam says that Ishmael was an infant when exiled, the Torah, that he was 14. But the Torah also recounts Hajar carrying Ishmael away on her shoulder, and recounts her "setting him down under a bush" while she went to look for water. There are other things I don;t have the time to mention, but please examine carefully the relevant Genesis accounts.

Secondly, you make an error in your understanding of Jewish doctrine. The Torah mentions a prophet who was not a descendant of Isaac, and the Jewish Talmud states that there were over 600 000 prophets that ministered to all the different lands of the earth. Non-Jewish prophets are standard Jewish belief. Do your research.

Number 9 is a subject of debate amongst Muslims.

Number 10, Allahu alim, but my understanding is that Imam Mehdi's difference with tehse scholars will not be so much over what they believe, but over how they put into practice (or neglect to put into practice) what they know and believe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing about all this confuses me. Muhammed says that Jesus is of the truth, and speaks the truth, but is only a messenger of God. However, all historical testimony claims that Jesus did indeed claim to be the Messiah, as evidenced by Josephus who says something along the lines of 'a man from Nazareth with many followers has begun a revolution in Jewish history, claiming that he is their Savior and was eventually executed'. Although that is only a rough paraphrase of his one paragraph regarding Jesus in the Histories, he mentions the claim to be the Messiah and the death on the cross.

So Muhammed had to be wrong on one of his points, either that Jesus only told the truth, or that Jesus was not the Messiah.

As for Jesus, he would have only one possible motivation for claiming something that was considered completely ludicrous; he must have known or believed that he was the Messiah, regardless of whether he was or he wasn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jesus is called the Messiah because it is said a woman covered his head will perfume in Bethany. Muhammad probably believed this fact was revealed to him by Allah and so it was recorded in the Quran.

why would Jesus be considered a savior? I do not know. It is said he ate the meal of the Passover; if he were to save anyone why would he do that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jesus is called the Messiah because it is said a woman covered his head will perfume in Bethany. Muhammad probably believed this fact was revealed to him by Allah and so it was recorded in the Quran.

why would Jesus be considered a savior? I do not know. It is said he ate the meal of the Passover; if he were to save anyone why would he do that.

He's called the Messiah for a lot more things than that. Read the thread on prophecies.

So what if he ate the Passover meal? Its a very traditional thing. Besides, he did it to reveal what would happen to his disciples, i.e. his betrayal, his death, the breaking of his body, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
He's called the Messiah for a lot more things than that. Read the thread on prophecies.

So what if he ate the Passover meal? Its a very traditional thing. Besides, he did it to reveal what would happen to his disciples, i.e. his betrayal, his death, the breaking of his body, etc.

look a little deeper, eh? ok. I said what I said to illustrate the changing of definition. I am unsure of the Muslim population's need for a Messiah-king or divine savior during the birth of Islam. Either the meaning of Messiah is different in the Quran or Early Christianity's common semetic history and traditions had a stronger influence on Islam than what is given. So perhaps early christians and early muslims grew from the same traditions...like white raisins. Too bad I did not grow up in even a derivative of a semetic culture, perhaps then I could point to things more confidently.

Well on the last supper, we are unsure if the meal was the passover meal, taking in remembrance of Allaha's grace, observed by Judeans who recently rituraly offered their meal earlier during the day....in other words Jesus would have eaten the lamb of God?

Or.

the meal could have been before passover, and actualy been the meal eaten when one dies, consisting of bread and wine---Jesus and his disiples held the rosery before the death. :(

Then again the wine passing could be related to a marriage meal...

Edited by JideoforHCX II

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One thing about all this confuses me. Muhammed says that Jesus is of the truth, and speaks the truth, but is only a messenger of God. However, all historical testimony claims that Jesus did indeed claim to be the Messiah, as evidenced by Josephus who says something along the lines of 'a man from Nazareth with many followers has begun a revolution in Jewish history, claiming that he is their Savior and was eventually executed'. Although that is only a rough paraphrase of his one paragraph regarding Jesus in the Histories, he mentions the claim to be the Messiah and the death on the cross.

So Muhammed had to be wrong on one of his points, either that Jesus only told the truth, or that Jesus was not the Messiah.

As for Jesus, he would have only one possible motivation for claiming something that was considered completely ludicrous; he must have known or believed that he was the Messiah, regardless of whether he was or he wasn't.

You seem confused and misinformed. The explicitly Qu'ran states that Jesus was a Messiah. There is no contention on this point. I don't understand where you get the idea that this is a point of disagreement. Muhammad acknowledge Jesus as Messiah. Our point of disagreement is that you (Christians) seem to dramatically misunderstand the meaning of the word "Messiah," giving it a wider meaning than is supported by scripture. Messiah does not mean a God-man. David and even King Cyrus of Persia were called "Messiah" in scripture. Messiah means "the annointed;" it refers to a King or leader who rules through God's blessing on earth.

He's called the Messiah for a lot more things than that. Read the thread on prophecies.

So what if he ate the Passover meal? Its a very traditional thing. Besides, he did it to reveal what would happen to his disciples, i.e. his betrayal, his death, the breaking of his body, etc.

And in terms of prophecies, you should be honest enough to admit that the traditional Christian list of "Messianic" prophecies is about ten or a hundred times longer than the traditional Jewish list of "Messianic" prophecies. That is, Jews believe that you have dramatically distorted upwards of a hundred verses that have nothing to do with the Messiah. For example, the "Immanuel" verse in Isaiah, the 53rd chapter of Isaiah, and many others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BISMILLAH

Salaam,

First of all....I would like to say thank you to all the individuals who took out their time

to read my post. Btw, I never got a response to my 19 points I added after my 10 questions. Sorry for my late reply. To be sincere as to why I put up this post (other than having questions) was to gather replies. Inshallah I'll compile them in a book someday. I have been comtacting various mujtahids and scholors on this topic. Inluding our Ayatollah's & other Sunni Groups including the IRF. What would you

do if I told you that our own Shia Scholors have different opinions on this topic?

Before you read further use www.biblegateway.com for biblical references

I have spent many years trying to understand the concept of the "Messiah". This is one of the most controversial topics I can think of in the whole Abrahamic Arena. Before I point out of what the Bible message is (mind you...I'm a practicing muslim who does IMPARTIAL reading) I would like to talk about some contradictions. It is true that the bible has contradictions. But many muslims forget one thing. What is the Bible....a mere collection of books!! It's a collection of books on which christians base their faith. For e.g. What are the major shia books? Quran, Nahjul Balagha, Al-Kafi, Bihar ul-anwar,Man la ya zaruhul fakih, Istibsar, Tahzibul Hakam, Mustadrik Al wasail, Al- wasail al shia & other fiqh books like their

Tauzhiul Masail. You put all these books together you would get the Shi'ite Bible. What about our brothers the sunnis? You get the Quran, Sahih Bukari, Muslim, Sunan of Abu Dawud, Nisa'i & tirmidhi's Jamiaat, Hanbal's Musnad, Malik's Muwatta, Tabari's History....you might get the Sunni Bible. You see Genesis doesn't have any contradictions.....however they are only visible after you compare them with other books in the bible. Same goes for any other book in the bible. Gospel of Luke has no contradictions.....only when you compare it with other gospels you'll

find contradictions. So for all those who claim the Bible has contradictions....please don't forget about books of other faiths. For e.g. true....the Quran has NO contradictions. They are only visible when you compare them to other books. For e.g. Compare the quran

with what you find stated in other shia literature. You have differences....Al kafi has NO contradictions. They are only visible when you compare them with other books in the "SHIA BIBLE" (I know there is no shia bible but I'm trying to be allegorical here). Same goes for the sunnis....Sahih Bukari has NO contradictions. They are only visible

when you compare them with other books like Muslim's Sahih or Malik's Muwatta. Having contradictions - to an impartial researcher - is NO big deal!!

Remember....IF ACCEPTANCE NEEDS EVIDENCE THEN DENIAL NEEDS EVIDENCE TOO!!

Now what is the Bible Message? Surely I can't fit it all here on this post. Inshallah..I'll write a book on it someday...it's all about how a man can become right with all the time from Abel & Cane to all the way to Jesus starting with the Fall of Adam. I would encourage all IMPARTIAL thinkers to study the "lamb" in the bible all the way from Abel & Cane to Jesus. You would be surprised!! Alot of muslims say that the bible is corrupt...from my pont of view if it is....then it must have been Large-Scale since that corruption is EVERYWHERE!! But only Allah knows best. I will just give you a very short summary here...

If one puts the verses of the Quran like Surah Baqarah from verse 30 onwards unto genesis 1:31....God & Man lived in harmony. There was friendship. I you put Ezekiel 28:12-17 with Isaiah 14:12-14 with Revelation 12:3-9 you'll learn about satan's downfall. However..Satan deceived adam through Eve since BOTH ate from the tree. You c what happened?!?! No sinner...no matter how small...can standup infront of God!! Adam & Eve tried covering themselves...but nope.....that isn't the atonement for sins...putting up a cover is like spraying deodarant on a dead rat that died in your house. That won't take care of the smell....you have to throw him out. All descendants of Adam would

have to leave...they would all sin once or another...even if it would be Tarqe Aula by the shi'ite Imams...because they were Adam's Descendants. So what can we learn...YOUR NOT SAVED BY OUTWARD APPEARANCES!! God does give a hint who will redeem mankind...it's in Genesis 3:14-15

Let's jump to Abel & Cane....this is where all the lamb sacrifices start. What was the way for atonement? Read the 2:54 in the Quran.

For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life. (Leviticus 17:11) In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. (Hebrews 9:22)

Rember....the wages of sin is death...not the atonement. However, some might say you can ask for forgiveness....true...after you have given the sacrifice...repent for your sin & confess. Why do you think Jesus asked people to ask for forgiveness when he would teach them to pray? (He was gonna be the atonement)...keep on reading..

Abel & Cane...read Genesis 4:2-5 Cane's sacrifice wasn't accepted....the atonement has to be god's way...not yours....YOUR NOT SAVED BY YOUR OWN IDEAS!!

Read Hebrews 11:4

Noah...read Genesis 6 & 7 along with Romans 1:21-32 YOUR NOT SAVED BY DEPRAVED IMMORALITY!! Read what Noah did as soon as he left his ark..Genesis 8:15-21

Babel....God told them what to do...Genesis 9:1 but what did they do instead? Read Genesis 11:1-4 but god thwarted their efforts...read Genesis 11:7-8

YOUR NOT SAVED BY RELIGION!!

who died in Abarham's sons place? Read the Quran 37:107 along with Genesis 22:1-18 You cannot deny that it was an innocent ram!!

What about Moses.......Read Exodus 12:1-3, 12:5-7, Exodus 12:22 , Exodus 12:46 , Exodus 12:12-13. The Jews were saved by the blood of "innocent blood" of lambs!!

Read the Quran 2:68-71

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE LAWS?!?! This is where alot of people go crazy. Read Exodus 20 and Exodus 34 God only ever wrote out the 10 commandments. However Moses did prescribe some additional laws for his ummah of his time..later own their Jewish Pharisees introduced some extra Mustahab Laws......But are we saved by keeping the Law(s)? read Exodus 19:1-6 The law can save you if "...OBEY ME FULLY..." Breaking one of the laws is tantamount to breaking it fully. Why was the law given? Three major reasons....

1) It's provides a way of living so societies can co-exist & thrive.

2) You undestand what is God like...you can recognize him but you can't know him. Ponder over his commands.

3) You realize that the inherent corruption will get us one way or another because of which we are sinners. It's more like a mirror and thermometer. It might increase our fellowship with god but not our relationship.

Read the Quran...3:3-4 , 3:48 , 3:65 , 5:66 , 5:68 , 5:110 , 9:111 , 48:29

What can we learn?

Gospel is always mentioned along with and after Law Not so the other way! You find references to the Law without that of the Gospel. Now compare this to Matthew 5:17-20. Jesus fulfilled it..only god's written "commandments" stay not other peoples ijtihad or laws...Who wrote the decolouge again for moses? Read Exodus 34

YOUR NOT SAVED BY FOLLOWING THE LAW TOOTH & NAIL!!! (Why do you think the Quran mentions very little shari'ah?)

This is where the Quran introduces a unique ideology. It says you can earn your way back into heaven...if your good deeds are heavier than you bad deeds...however

if that was true...then I ask you this....why do ALL history books note that Jesus spent his whole life pissing of the Pharisees? YOUR NOT SAVED BECAUSE OF THE LAW!!

What about the TABERNACLE?

Aaron and his descendants could go anywhere in it except for the Holiest of Holies (it was seperated by a thick curtain) (Leviticus 16:2). They could only go there once a year...when? THE DAY OF ATONEMENT!! Read Levitius 1:1-4 and compare with Quran 2:68-71 Again...innocent blood provides atonement!!

Now there is a phase in the old testament from here time onwards till the re-appearance of Jesus..it's like a never ending cycle.."REBEL"==>

"ENSLAVED"==>"REPENT"==>"DELIVERED"==> (starts all over again)

My borthers and sisters...I'd like to apologize for not having more time to add it up for you in a nut-shell..but please notice the pattern of shedding of "INNOCENT BLOOD"

Who was this lamb? I have heard only three possible explanations by speaking to various scholors of various religions. Hindus would say it's Sheeva, the goddess drawn blue indicating she took the poison of the world upon herself so others could be saved. Shia's claim that it's Imam Hussain. Read the commentary of surah 37:107 by Aqa Mehdi Puya & Mir Mohammed Ali on www.al-islam.org Was it Imam Hussain? Lets see...Abraham sacrifices Ishmael in Saudi, Hussain is born in Saudi, but dies in Iraq.

or was it Jesus? You might claim Psalm 22 & Isaiah 53 are spurious....but what about other thoughts? Abaraham sacrifices Isaac in Israel, Jesus is borned there & dies there & comes back to life. Read Leviticus 1:2-5 Compare the brazen altor of the tabernacle with the cross. The Sacrifice was from either the herd or the flock, Jesus is the lamb of god.The Sacrifice was a male, Jesus was a male. The Sacrifice was without defect, Jesus is sinless. (Mind you he wasn't from Adam but "..a spirit proceeding from God..(Quran 4:157)"). The Sacrifice was to be accepted on his behalf, Jesus died in our place. The Sacrifice was to make atonement for him, Jesus is our way to have forgiveness of sin. The Sacrifice was a BLOOD sacrifice, Jesus was the blood sacrifice made for us. As per Exodus 12:46 you can't break the lambs bones...and Neither did they break his leg...read John 19:32-37 Consider the torn curtain....remember Leviticus 16:2 compare it with Mark 15:38 The blood atonement had been done!! Jesus died on the day of the Passover about 3:00 p.m just when people were bringing in their lambs for sacrifice....brothers I as a muslim can come up with so many prophecies in the OLD Testament that Jesus fulfilled, then why do all you turn a blind eye to them?!?!

You may claim that all of this is MERE CORRUPTION...then let me tell u this...if this corrution took place then know it's everywhere!! There is always a lamb or a ram!!

I want you to know that by reading the bible sincerely you'll realize it has a message that cannot be ignored.

Remember Ibn Kathir's commentary of surah 2:54....He said that the Israelites wanted to repent of their sin of worshipping the calf, but God did not accept their repentance. When Moses mediated, God told him to tell the Israelites that the only way to get forgiveness was that each man should kill everybody he met. It is said that they put on blindfolds so they would not have mercy on their families but would have the courage to obey God's order . Ibn Kathir said that at least seventy thousands were killed that day, and blood ran like a stream. When God saw it was enough, He told Moses to tell the Israelites to stop. God accepted their repentance through the blood of those who died . If someone did not worship the calf and died as atonement for those who did, why would we reject the idea that the sinless Christ died for sinners, and that He was still alive?

I encourage everyone to do sincere research...Allah guides all in difficult re-assessments...I hope he'll guide me too. I'd like to leave you all with psalm 15

LORD, who may dwell in your sanctuary?

Who may live on your holy hill?

2 He whose walk is blameless

and who does what is righteous,

who speaks the truth from his heart

3 and has no slander on his tongue,

who does his neighbor no wrong

and casts no slur on his fellowman,

4 who despises a vile man

but honors those who fear the LORD,

who keeps his oath

even when it hurts,

5 who lends his money without usury

and does not accept a bribe against the innocent.

He who does these things

will never be shaken.

Ma-as Salaam

P.S. what r your thoughts on 5:66 & 5:68 in the Quran?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
YOUR NOT SAVED BY FOLLOWING THE LAW TOOTH & NAIL!!! (Why do you think the Quran mentions very little shari'ah?)

This is where the Quran introduces a unique ideology. It says you can earn your way back into heaven...if your good deeds are heavier than you bad deeds...

Whoaaa Nelly. Hold up there. That's a misrepresentation of the Islamic teachings that is baffling coming from a "practicing Muslim." Islam teaches you to turn to God in repentance, and purifying yourself by doing right, by turning away from wrong. It teaches that your "salvation" is through repentence and purification of the soul. Works are secondary, and are emphasized because the shariah is designed to bring order on the earth. A Muslim should not be making the sort of mistake in doctrine you just did. I'm still going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're just a sort of confused Muslim and not an evangelist wolf in sheep's clothing. (We've seen people like that here, who have pretended to be Muslims before, however. You might want to ask some of the Christians why they think it's OK to lie when trying to convert people. It's something that has always confused me)

Anyway, it's nice that you're looking seriously into other faiths' books; it's good to broaden your horizons. But can I make a tiny suggestion? Try spending some time reading your own. You have some misconceptions that could be cleared up with a little study.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Br. Salman,

By saying that you are not required to follow the law "tooth and nail" you are saying that you don't have to follow the rules given by Allah (swa) in the Quran. To a Muslim, obedience is PRIMARY and understanding is SECONDARY. When you say "La illaha illala, Mohammad an Rasoolilah" with intention and understanding you make a pledge to follow Allah (swa) in whatever he commands and to follow the Prophet in whatever he commands. This is the most basic and essential grade of being a Muslim, which is one who submits his will to the will of Allah (saw).

If you don't believe that the "tooth and nail" of the law applies to you and that the Bible and your own personal interpretation of the Quran (unless you are a mujtahid, and you certainly don't sound like one, no offense)) are an equal valid source of law then your are a mushrik. If you actually commit haram actions without shame or feeling the need to repent then your are a fasiq. In either case, it's not good and you should carefully examine your understanding of "the basics" of Islam and do tawba so that you may (inshahAllah) receive hidiyah from Allah (swa) and return to the right path.

If you refuse to repent and continue to commit haram actions without regret then you will NOT receive the guidance of Allah (swa) and your obvious confusion and misunderstanding about the very most basic aspects of your Islamic faith will increase.

I urge you to repent to Allah (swa) if you are currently commiting haram actions. If you do this, perhaps Allah (swa) will have mercy on you and guide you to the right path. Also, if you need some more knowledge on "the basics" of Islamic beliefs and practices, see: http://www.al-islam.org

Edited by Ali Zaki

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BISMILLAH

Salaam,

May god's blessings & Mercy be upon you all. I see some people are accusing me

of being a christian missinary under a sheep's clothing. No brothers....I'm not!!

I was born and raised in shi'ite ithna ashari family. I was a firm shi'ite who read many books including the Quran , tafsir, Nahjul Balagha, Al-Kafi (Some of it), and more by contemporary scholors inluding sunni and wahabi literature. I was born and raised in the United Arab Emirates in a city called Dubai. I later on moved to Canada and am currently in the last year of my Bachelor's Degree in engineering. As I moved into canada I was exposed to books of other faiths and that lead me to comparative religion as a side hobby. That is visiting churches, professors, monks etc.

Why? Because Imam Ali said "There is no sickness more debilitating than one's own ignorance"

I currently practice the Shia fiqh according to Ayatollah Fadhlullah but in NO WAY endorse the ithna ashari aqa'aed. Sorry brothers...if you all think I'm wrong then please pray to Allah for me for guidance. Mind you I was a fierce supporter of the Shia Aqa'aed & use to argue alot with wahabis.

Anyway....enough about my "confused" self.

Kadhim asked "You might want to ask some of the Christians why they think it's OK to lie when trying to convert people". Brother that is because of what you read in the first book of Corinthians 9:19-27.

As per Placid, I don't think you can endorse both the present day bible along with the present day quran. Because these present versions are IRRECONCILABLE!!

I'll let you know why. The Quran has a very unique ideology. Basically you can "earn" the right righteousness to be with god so you can get into heaven by following Mohammed's LAW tooth & nail. Those with a heavier balance of good deeds when compared to bad ones are successful. This is totally different from the bible's message. All major personalities in the bible that were following god's way were looking for a messiah to come and redeem them all the way from ADAM & EVE until John the Baptist. Until Jesus' re-appearance the means for atonement was looking forward for the messiah to come, alongwith sacrificing the lambs or rams for atonement, followed by confessing of sins. Just read my above post along with the verses I cited. I would really encourage you to read about the redeemer promised to Adam & Eve in Genesis 3:15. It's better if you read the whole chapter so you can understand the context.

You have to understand one major thing, on the onset years of Islam it was assumed that it's teaching are totally conformable with the teachings of the injeel and the torah. That's why the first muslims were given refuge in Abysinnia. However, Mohammed and his ahlul-bayt, had one major difference and that was the concept of the trinity. Read 4:171 & 5:73 in the Quran. This is evident - as a result of 3:61 - in the event of Mubahila.

Checkout http://www.ezsoftech.com/islamic/mubahila.asp

The ahlul-bayt always OBJECTED to only one of the christian teachings in their debate. "SON OF GOD" But let's understand the trinity the Quran doesn't agree with. Read 5:116 in the Quran. The pagan christian arabs had a tradition of keeping three idols symbolizing that Christ was conceived from God through Mary. They puported mary as god's wife. They believed in the trinity of Jesus, Marry & the Father. However

we all know that Jesus is flesh, in surah baqarah verse 253 he is excelled with the Ruh al-Qudus and in surah nisa verse 171 Allah says that Jesus was a Spirit proceeding from Him. I see a trinity here which Allah endorses (Jesus,Allah,Ruh al Qudus). One may argue that Ruh al-Qudus is Gabreal but according to surah al-qadr verse 4, we see that the Ruh and Malaika come down on the night of Al-Qadr. Gabreal was a Malaika. Ruh is something else!! What is it? Hard to tell...read surah 17 verse 85

Keep in mind the topic of debate between the Ahlul-bayt and the christians of Najran. Did they argue of Jesus being the prophecised sin offering? Did they argue that he was NOT placed at the right hand of God? Did they argue he was NOT raised back up alive? Did they say he was NOT prophecised in Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53? (Note: The dead sea scrolls were proven through carbon testing that those "FOUND" manuscripts were dated back to 1 B.C.)

They only argued on the Pagan Idea of trinity!!

We have to study the arabic torahs and injeels Mohammed was exposed to, for e.g.

Narrated 'Aisha:

The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic. Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 605)

"…Waraqa had been converted to Christianity in the Pre-lslamic Period and used to write Arabic and write of the Gospel in Arabic as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight..." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 478)

"…Ka'b read the Torah and said: The Apostle of Allah has spoken the truth. Abu Hurayrah said: I met Abdullah ibn Salam and told him of my meeting with Ka'b." (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 3, Number 1041: Narrated Abu Hurayrah)

"…(Muhammad's father) passed by a woman of the Kath'am (tribe) whose name was Fatimah Bint Murr and who was the prettiest of all women, in the full bloom of her youth and the most pious and had studied the scriptures; ..." (Ibn Sa'd's Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, p.104)

Sheikh Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi, in Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, ch.XIV, p.74 reports from Mu'affaq Bin Ahmad Khawarizmi and Sheikhu'l-Islam Hamwaini reports from Abu Sa'id Buhturi that he (Abu Sa'id) said: "I saw Ali on the pulpit while he was putting on the Holy Prophet's mantle, sword and the turban. He uncovered his chest and said: 'Ask me anything you like, before I die, because my breast contains great wisdom. This is my stomach which is a storehouse of knowledge. This is the saliva of the Holy Prophet; this is what the Holy Prophet has fed me as grain. I swear by Allah that if a carpet is spread and I sit on it, verily, I will instruct the follower of the Torah, according to the Torah. I will instruct the followers of the Gospels according to the Gospels, until both the Torah and the Gospels are made to speak and bear witness to the following: Ali has spoken the truth and the verdict that he has given is according to what has been revealed in us. When you recite the Book you don't understand this much.'"

Now you have to wait a second here. Why don't we have any authentic narration by any of the infallible imams or Mohammed in which they state that when the torah & the injeel were corrupted? Which books were spurious? Which verses were concocted? You think such people leading large masses never had to answer such questions? In which verses was Mohammed prophecised in the torah and the injeel? Why didn't Mohammed tell

us where exactly?

Let's turn the tables a bit!!

How did the "PRESENT DAY" Quran come into being?

We have three views

1) The Sunni view that it came through the order of compilation of Usman

2) The rejected Quran of Ali http://www.irib.ir/Special/imam%20ali/html...by_imam_ali.htm

3) The "wishful thinking" view of hardliners like Ayatollah Shirazi http://www.shirazi.org.uk/the%20quran%20when%20was%20it.pdf

My personal belief is that the Quran had existed during Mohammed's time. So many time is the word Quran found...and so many as a word "Kitab" It also says how god sends down each surah part by part. Remember when Umar said "The book of Allah is enough for us" in Hadith al-qirtas ?

But let's not throw into oblivion of what BOTH sunni's and shia's have recorded in their books. Tahreef of the Quran. One can find a good number of tahreef reports in Al-Kafi. Shias say they were of doubtful authority because of which we reject them since they DON'T conform with present-day Quran. But these hadith's aren't limited to shi'ites only.

For e.g.

The thirty-third chapter of the Qur'an, al-Ahzab, is alleged to have contained 200 or nearly 300 verses, all of which except 73 are said to have been lost. (As-Suyuti, ad-Durru 'l-Manthur, vol. 5, pp. 179-180; As-Suyuti, al-Itqan, vol. 2. p. 25.)

Now the chapter al-Baqarah contains 286 verses. It means accordingly that 213 or even more verses were lost, including the verse of stoning. (As-Suyuti, ad-Durru 'l-Manthur, vol. 5. p. 179.)

Mind you these are the very few of which abound in sunni literature. There is more out there. Sunni's give the same excuse of dubious authority.

But when did scholors really start writings works against the christian bible. You see when hadith's were starting to be collected from the time of Ibn Hazm under Umar ibn Abdul-Aziz's orders he must of found some dubious hadith's about Jesus NOT being crucified. These must have been of the same genre that disparaged the ahlul-bayt and their

descendants. From then onwards it has been assumed that God's present heavenly based books are irreconcilable. I mean if they could take revenge on the Bani Hashim

for what they did to the Ummayad forefatehrs why not take revenge on the jews for what their forefathers did to Ishmael & Esau (Arab forefathers) ?

To start a sincere research we have to start with an unbiased approach. I once contacted Ayatollah Fadhlullah's & Shirazi's office and they told me they have the whole quran written by Ali in the Kufi script. This can be found in Imam Reza University in Mashad. Let's get a sample of the copy and do some carbon testing to when they originally date back to.

A muslim may cite verses like 6:34 , 18:27 , 6:115 , 10:64 saying that God protected his "WORDS". Yet he'll show his double standard when accusing the torah,injeel & zabur of corruption.

And Allah knows best,

Salman

"For as high are the heavens above the earth, so great is His love for those who fear Him" (Psalm 103:11)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salman,

You covered a lot of ground in Post 10 and again presented some good thoughts. Thanks.

The statement, 'You're not saved by keeping the law' gets attention.

Romans 3:19 says, 'Now we know whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20. Therefore, by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets.

22. even the righteousness of God which is through faith in Jesus Christ in all and on all who believe. For there is no difference.

23. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24. Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

25. Whom God set forth to be a propitiation (atonement) by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forebearance God has passed over the sins that were previously committed,

26. To demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just, and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.'

Speaking here that 'by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified' --- it referred to the OT law that the Jewish leaders were using as justification, but they had departed from righteousness and mercy. This is why Jesus said, 'Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.' Then He reaffirmed the Commandments in Matt 5, 6, and 7, adding the right attitude of love (for He said, 'love is the fulfilling of the law').

The OT law was to be obeyed, but as Kadhim said above

(Quote)

Islam teaches you to turn to God in repentance, and purifying yourself by doing right, by turning away from wrong. It teaches that your "salvation" is through repentence and purification of the soul.

This is about the same as Christianity that yeilding of one's self to the will of God is first and it is called repentance. Accepting the blood sacrifice of Jesus for sin justifies the believer and atones for previous sin. The Christian then is to follow God's will which leads to doing good deeds and the result should be a righteous life. If a person continues to sin, as some do, then they must repent of it or they simply continue in sin, and some do. They may say they are Christians but --- let God be the Judge.

Am I right in assuming that the 'laws' of Islam are the daily prayers and observances, which when one becomes a Muslim, they accept and are expected to observe?

These are not then the OT laws although, giving testimony, daily prayers, giving alms, and fasting all have their roots in the OT. But if you subscribe to these laws and others as Muslims then you are obligated to do them.

Nevertheless as Kadhim says, dedication is first, works or deeds are secondary which includes the laws or rules, is that right?

The reason I say this is because the folly of the Pharisees was in their keeping the letter of the law but living as hypocrites and profiting wherever they could.

Ali said

(Quote)

This is the most basic and essential grade of being a Muslim, which is one who submits his will to the will of Allah (saw).

Now we are all mature here and we have differences of understanding but I want to ask a question.

I agree with Kadhim and Ali that our dedication involves our surrender to the will and purpose of God, but the violence of Muslims and the teaching of young people to be suicide murderers, begs the question, --- are these Muslims surrendered to the will of God?

Is this hypocricy to the Muslim faith the same as the Pharisees were hypocritical to the Jewish faith?

I appreciate those who want to live a quiet and peaceful life, as we do ourselves, but if the violent Muslims are surrendered to the will of God in doing what they are doing, then this brings God's will into question.

If the violent Muslims are an embarrassment to Islam why do the Muslims defend them rather than exposing them?

These are some questions that come to mind so I am cautiously asking them.

Sorry if this is sensitive.

(I just read your last post but have no time for further questions now).

Placid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a long post. Man i'd get a headache if i tried to answer all of those questions. If you want to feed me one at a time i'll be happy to help, God-willing.

Shalom, Salaam, Shanti, Peace...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
May god's blessings & Mercy be upon you all. I see some people are accusing me

of being a christian missinary under a sheep's clothing. No brothers....I'm not!!

As I said, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Kadhim asked "You might want to ask some of the Christians why they think it's OK to lie when trying to convert people". Brother that is because of what you read in the first book of Corinthians 9:19-27.

Dead wrong. You totally misread Paul's intention here if you take the following as a license to lie.

1 Cor 9

19 For though I was free from all men, I brought myself under bondage to all, that I might gain the more.

20 And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, not being myself under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21 to them that are without law, as without law, not being without law to God, but under law to Christ, that I might gain them that are without law.

22 To the weak I became weak, that I might gain the weak: I am become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some.

23 And I do all things for the gospel's sake, that I may be a joint partaker thereof.

24 Know ye not that they that run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? Even so run; that ye may attain.

25 And every man that striveth in the games exerciseth self-control in all things. Now they do it to receive a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

26 I therefore so run, as not uncertainly; so fight I, as not beating the air:

27 but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

This is teaching that you have to modify the way you speak according to the knowledge and background of those you are talking to. It doesn't mean that you distort the truth to trick people into following you. The Torah says "Thou shalt not LIE;" I have seen Christians pretend to be "former Muslims" so that they could trick people into taking them more seriously. It is pathetic, and so are you if you endorse such sinful behaviour.

I'll let you know why. The Quran has a very unique ideology. Basically you can "earn" the right righteousness to be with god so you can get into heaven by following Mohammed's LAW tooth & nail. Those with a heavier balance of good deeds when compared to bad ones are successful. This is totally different from the bible's message.

I notice you didn't offer any response to my pointing out that you're misrepresenting the Qu'ran's message. All you have done is repeat yourself. You are taking a few verses about the "scales of deeds," which are metaphorical, and taking them over-literally, and are ignoring the other verses which emphasize the need to turn in repentence for your mistakes to draw back to God. If you have been raised as a Muslim, it is amazing to me that you are making this mistake. Just as it is baffling how you could make the mistake earlier of saying that the Qu’ran and Islam disagree that Jesus was a Messiah when it’s there in black and white in the Qu’ran. This is why I say you’re pretty confused about your Islamic beliefs. I think you should go back to the Qu’ran as a whole and refresh yourself on what it says. A lot of your questions will be answered. I also welcome you to consult with a reputable scholar in your area.

Allah says that Jesus was a Spirit proceeding from Him. I see a trinity here which Allah endorses (Jesus,Allah,Ruh al Qudus). One may argue that Ruh al-Qudus is Gabreal but according to surah al-qadr verse 4, we see that the Ruh and Malaika come down on the night of Al-Qadr. Gabreal was a Malaika. Ruh is something else!! What is it? Hard to tell...read surah 17 verse 85

The Qu'ran endorses no such Trinity. You are also mistaken in your understanding of the Christian Trinity, which is not "Father, Jesus, Spirit" but rather, "Father, Word/Wisdom, Spirit." The Christian teaching is that Jesus in his words and actions was a manifestation of the Word. Christians teach that he had a human, non-divine body and soul, but that the Divine Wisdom was mixed and connected with these in a mysterious way that Christian scholars bickered about through the ages. There is a subtle but essential difference between this and what you said.

This is totally different from the bible's message. All major personalities in the bible that were following god's way were looking for a messiah to come and redeem them all the way from ADAM & EVE until John the Baptist.

If you claim that they understood "Messiah" as a redeemer of the sort that Christians understand, then as I mentioned before, you are mistaken. If you are so interested in inter-religious exploration, you might want to talk to a Rabbi for more details. Messiah was understood as a leader who was blessed by God. David was called Messiah. King Cyrus was called Messiah. A Messiah redeems his people in a way in that he leads them properly, and thus if he is followed, they will be brought out of troubles, because his leadership is blessed and guided by God. That is the redemption that is meant. Spiritual redemption can follow from following such a leader, but this is incidental. A Messiah was NEVER before the onset of Christianity understood as a magic vicarious sin eraser.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salman,

I can understand why you have questions, and I see some are quick to come up with answers, or to tell you that your questions are ridiclous, but hey.

The Quran talks about Jesus up to the point of his death,(which Muslims deny), but there really isn't much after that to say what really happened, so I'd be thinking, something must have happened. The Apostles didn't write about nothing, all of them wrote the same kinda lies? There is more to Jesus than any of us can realize(including Christians) Muslims believe that if you follow the Christ you will be saved, but they sure spend a lot of time telling you why you should follow Muhammad instead. Follow a Prophet that ascended to heaven or one who was buried and still lays there. Your choice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Follow a Prophet that ascended to heaven or one who was buried and still lays there. Your choice.

I'm sorry, but this statement makes no sense to me. We follow both Messengers..all 5 of them actually...and all the Prophets in between. Just because one ascended heaven doesn't mean he is a 'better choice' to follow. Every Messenger had his appointed duties and each Messenger deserves our following equally.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I follow this with interest but without an opinion. I cannot say he is not a Christian posing as a Muslim. I admit I suspect it. I have spotted a few comments that appear more of Christian origin than Muslim. But I also have to say that if he's a Christian posing as a Muslim, most of the time he's not writing what I would expect. So I have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

But I must say to our new friend, as a Christian myself, that no Christian should pose as a Muslim. No good will come of it. If you are Christian there is no need for you to pose as a Muslim amongst Shia. Deception is the work of Satan. If you are a deceiver, you not only deceive the Shia, you deceive me also. :(

On the other hand, if you're genuine, you and I have a lot to talk about. And, if you're not, and you admit it, you still have a lot to share and none here will condemn you for it and your opinions will be welcomed and debated. Just please provide them without deceit. The arguments will remain the same. Only your position will become clear.

I really don't know if you're genuine or not, so please, whichever you are, interpret my intentions as friendly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be brief and I'm sure you may have heard it before, Jesus said to Shaitan "Obey the Lord your G_d (Allah) and serve no other".It's that simple.Any abilities Isa had were granted by Allah(swt) as is the case with all Prophets up to Muhammad(pbuh) including Imams.

Muhammad(pbuh) travelled through the seven heavens-no astronaut ever has.And all this without a spaceship! How's that for scientific feats?For all we know, Muhammad(pbuh) may be there now.By Allah's(swt) leave he did it before...Allah knows best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BISMILLAH

May Allah's (My heavenly father) blessings be upon all of you. Wow, I'm surprised

by all the feedback I've gotten. Thank you for writing. I see most of you want to know

what I believe. Ever here the prinicple "Don't throw out the baby with the bath water"?

You see brothers I believe that by accepting the christ as my "Maula" I can still be a muslim. You might think that I'm screwed up. Let me tell you what Jesus said "Don't Judge otherwise you will be Judged".

Let me sum up my beliefs.....

LA ILLAHA IL Allah (There is no god but Allah)

MOHAMMED AR RASOOL Allah (Mohammed is the messenger of Allah)

ISA AL MASEEH Allah (Jesus is the Messiah of Allah)

I believe after his success by living the all perfect life he was placed at god's right hand and hence was granted wilayah and imamah over all...."the living and the dead". Very similar to what shias believe with their Imams huh?

You see, unlike mainstream christians, I don't believe your saved by going to church. Neither by reading the bible more and more. "No one comes to the father EXCEPT through me". I'm non-denominational. But I do believe the present-day Quran is different from the ORIGINAL.

I do believe that Mohammed was sent to the pagan arabs just to abolish all the prevailent polytheistc beliefs they had. Basically his Islam was a road-map to christianity. Very similar to how Paul dealt with the gentiles after his encounter with the Lord. I believe alot of

people only accepted Mohammed's message - during his time - just because they saw that not only was his movement exonerateing the oppressed but also won over an entire kingdom. All they had to do was wait for him to die after which they could snatch it all for themselves. Why do you think many muslims never accepted the concept of Imamiyah of the Imams? Why do you think that in such a less amount of time they reviled Ali, Fatima, Hassan & Hussain? They obviously knew the ancient scriptures very well - about Jesus being seated at the right hand of god - & didn't buy off their wilayah.

They obviously must have thought the Bani Hashim must have played a "show" just for power.

I'm not saying these are entirely my beliefs but I do say that we all are on a journey. I just pray to god that I am where he wants me to be. I don't say I'm right...I don't say I'm wrong. I'm still studying.

Now to address your concerns....

I remember Ali Zaki provided me the followinglink "http://alislam.org/jesus_shiite_narrations/" I once remember reading in "The gospel of shia of ali" about 2 years back that Imam Ali said "Jesus is my brother in heaven". He obviously too accepted christ as his lord and saviour because of which he considered himself to be included in the family of god. People who are well versed with the New Testament will know what I'm talking about. You might wanna throw hadith's at me....but know this, Imtiaz Ali has lead the largest research done on the narrations found in Nahjul Balagha. He managed to trace them back in many other books. But guess what....he's still a sunni. Are ali's narrations authentic? That I will personally need to study.

I've read Nahjul Balagha but not all of Imtiaz Ali's findings yey.

Let's get to Kadhim. I asked why was Jesus sentenced to crucifixion. The members of the Sanhedrin were looking for an excuse to kill him. But had no proof against him. Afterall Jesus challenged people if they could prove him of a single sin. The gospels tell us he was sentenced to crucifxion. Why? For blasphemy. Blasphemy for what? Read Matthew 26:63 , Mark 14:61 , Luke 22:70, John 19:7.

Why do you believe he was sentenced to crucifixion? What excuse did they find against him because of which they were justified according to the law?

You mentioned that the Talmud mentions other prophets after Abraham not from the line of Isaac. Tell me, were those mentioned Nabis or Rasools? My question still holds! Name me the Rasools that were sent after Isaac until Jesus. Don't name me Nabi's.....but Rasools!! Every Rasool is a nabi but not every Nabi is a rasool. That's what I read in Aqa Mehdi Pooya/ Mir Mohammed ali's tafsir available on www.al-islam.org However there is an exception. Gabreal was mentioned atleast once as a rasool in the Quran. However to know of some Rasools after Isaac and before Jesus, read surah al Maryam.

You mentioned inconsistencies in Genesis...can u share them with me. I hope these aren't what the Ayatollahs have showed you or messed up sites like www.answering-christianity.com

The following is a good example I once read from a web-site and saved it as a word file. I fell to laughter as I read how they misquoted the bible.

**************************

Question: I am a Muslim and I have a friend who is a new Muslim. He wanted to know the name of Abraham’s sacrificed son. The Bible says it was Isaac (sws). Is this true ?

Answer: Without doubt, the son offered for sacrifice by Abraham (sws) was Ishmael (sws). The Qur’an bears reference to this established historical fact in the following words:

And he [—Abraham—] said [after being saved from the fire]: ‘Verily, I am going to my Lord. He will guide me!’ ‘My Lord! Grant me (offspring) from the righteous.’ So We gave him glad tidings of a forbearing boy. And, when he [his son] was old enough to walk with him, he said: ‘O my son! I have been seeing in a dream that I am offering you in sacrifice [to Allah]. So look what you think!’ He said: ‘O my father! Do that which you are commanded, Insha Allah, you shall find me of the patient. Then, when they had both submitted themselves [to the will of Allah], and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead, We called out to him: ‘O Abraham! You have made the dream a reality’. Verily, thus do We reward the good-doers. Verily, that indeed was a manifest trial. And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice [a ram]; And We left for him [a goodly remembrance] among the later generations. Peace be upon Abraham! Thus indeed do We reward the good-doers. Verily, he was one of Our believing slaves. And We gave him the glad tidings of Isaac – a Prophet from the righteous. (37:99-112)

The underlined portion of the passage clearly shows that glad tidings of the birth of Isaac (sws) were given to Abraham (sws) after he had already offered his first born son for sacrifice. In other words, the italicized verse: ‘So We gave him the glad tidings of a forbearing boy’, and all that has been narrated after this verse refer to Ishmael (sws).

As far as the Bible is concerned, it, as your friend has pointed out, does mention a different story: In one of the most blatant examples of interpolation, the Jews have inserted the name of Isaac (sws) in place of Ishmael (sws) to cut off the relationship of Muhammad (sws) with Arabia and his great ancestor Abraham (sws).

However, in spite of this tampering, the Bible contains passages which still point to Ishmael (sws) as the son offered for sacrifice1. The passage which mentions the incident of sacrifice in the Bible reads:

Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, ‘Abraham!’ ‘Here I am,’ he replied. Then God said, ‘Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about.’ Early the next morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. He said to his servants, ‘Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.’ Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, ‘Father?’ Yes, my son?’ Abraham replied. ‘The fire and wood are here,’ Isaac said, ‘but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?’ Abraham answered, ‘God Himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.’ And the two of them went on together. When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, ‘Abraham! Abraham!’ ‘Here I am’ ‘he replied. ‘Do not lay a hand on the boy,’ he said. ‘Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.’ Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide. And to this day it is said, ‘On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided.’ The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time and said, ‘I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.’ (Genesis 22:1-18)

It follows from the underlined portion that Abraham (sws) was asked to sacrifice his only son which means that at that time he had no other son. The fact that this could only be Ishmael (sws) is evident from the following two passages of the Bible:

Abraham was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael. (Genesis, 16:16)

Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him. (Genesis, 21:5)

It is evident from these verses that Ishmael (sws) was fourteen years old at the birth of Isaac (sws), and must have been offered for sacrifice before Isaac (sws) was born because Abraham (sws) had been asked to sacrifice his only son; after Isaac’s birth of course the words ‘your only son’ would be totally inappropriate and against reality.

In the light of this evidence, it is obvious that the word Isaac mentioned in the passage above (indicated by the underlined portion) was inserted in place of Ishmael (sws).

***************************

Obviously this person couldn't recall Genesis 17 & Galatians 4 & 5

When I cited 1 corinthians 9:19-27. I never said that it allows one to lie. What I meant that some chistian deviants misuse those verses to make their acts seem right. I don't endorse such acts.

You don't accept the Mohammedan trinity....what are your thoughts to John 1:14 ? How do you feel when you read the following verses in the Quran 29:50 & 10:31 alongwith 3:49 & 5:110?

You asked of the meaning of the messiah. True..it does mean "the annointed one". But lets draw an Islamic line here. You first of all want me to go see a Rabbi to ask him the meaning of the word messiah. It's no surprise that he will downplay the meaning of the word messiah. After all does he accept the gospel unlike the Quran which makes it mandatory to believe in? Maybe I should ask him why I shouldn't accept Jesus either?

Why shouldn't I ask him why do you say the Torah is NOT corrupted? You'd accept his reasoning on the word Messiah but not others to pertaining to different topics. Tell me does the Quran call David the Messiah? Nope, it mentions Messiah about 10 times for Al Maseeh Isa ibn Maryam. Why don't shias ask sunnis for the meaning of Maula or ul'il-amr? Because it doesn't befit their stance!!

Obviously Jesus' being called al-maseeh must be a distinguishing attribute of Jesus. If one reads the narrations found in Al-Kafi and Bihar al-anwar so many times is Jesus given the title "Ruh-Allah", the Spirit of Allah.

Let's see what the High Priests asked him....Matthew 26:63 , Mark 14:61 , Luke 22:70, John 19:7

But Jesus remained silent.

The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."

But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.

Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?"

They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?"

He replied, "You are right in saying I am."

The Jews insisted, "We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God."

You might wanna say that the word messiah means "the annointed one". If thats what it entirely meant & hence what Jesus said, I don't think the High Priests would have sentenced him to crucifixion for Blasphemy.

Which gospels do you think the Quran is talking about in 5:47 , 5:48 , 5:66 , 5:68? You might wanna mention that it's the Gospel of Barnabas. However know that it's earliest manuscripts are dated back to the 14th century and calls Mohammed the messiah and NOT "Ahmed" as does the Quran 61:6

Placid....You are right, we have to learn from the disciples. They all fled and left Jesus during his crucifixion. However later on they went and preached the gospel in the face of death until the end. Something must have happened because of which they're faith became so strong. You ask why people don't expose these terrorits. That's because terrorism has already done that. Terrorism doesn't defend ones beliefs.

It exposes them!!

Son of Placid you said "There is more to Jesus than any of us can realize". That is very true!! I believe he is the most successful man in history. Consider the no. of his followers given the fact that he never wrote a book and never waged any war. You also spoke about his death, true...read Quran 21:7 along with 19:33. It's funny how the Quran talks about John the Baptist in 19:15. This must be because of what he said in John 1:29-34. He put his faith in christ and is in accordance with what paul said in 1 corinthians 15:35-58

Mas-Salam - With prayers for everyone's success & well-being,

Salman

P.S. What are your thoughts about code 19 in the Quran? Remember I said there was an exception where an angel was called a rasool. In (19:19) he talks about the birth of a Righteous Son. Guess who and to whom?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In reference to Archangel Gabriel being mentioned as a Rasool...

in this context it does not mean he is a Messenger, but he was acting as a middle man giving sending Maryam a message.

He tells Maryam that God will grant her a purified son...meaning that he will be without sin (just as we believe ALL Messengers were sinless..in contrast to the belief held by Christians that only Jesus was sinless)

The Quran makes it evident that the child will be HER son, not God's son.

I also don't understand your theory as to why people didn't believe in the Imamat. The majority of the Muslims at the time used to be pagan, so they didn't even care about Jesus and wouldn't care that Jesus was at the right hand of God. The reason that people didn't follow the Imamat was because people usurped the power and made sure that the followers of Imam Ali would be persecuted and silenced, as a way to stop the correct message. I honestly don't think that has anything to do with Jesus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

(salam)

I would just like to refute the notion of "Jesus (as) sitting at the Right of the Father" but before I provide 2 Christian resources showing that the account is "suspect" and has no place in "EARILER MANUSCRIPTS" and is "omitted", I'll like to say that Ayatullah Khamenei (qas) forbade using "Father" for Allah the Most High and advised against naming Allah (swt) with the names, titles, designations of the Polytheists. (I have the Fatwa if you would like to see it).

Now to the 2 resources I have which show that Mark 16:9-20 are not credible:

Source one:

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures by the Jehovah Witnesses

Source two:

New Living Translation, just refer to www.newlivingtranslation.com for details

Since Salman calls into question the Original of the Quran which I believe is an absurd proposition on his part since I am privy of residing in Turkey and have had the opportunity to see the Manuscript of the Holy Quran at the Topkapi Museuem, I can say with full confidence that he speaks out of sheer ignorance. For further info read this:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/

This forum is not allowing me to post the images which I scanned.

So please refer to these links and look it up and see for yourself:

http://www.watchtower.org/bible/index.htm

http://www.newlivingtranslation.com/default.asp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To the idea that Jesus (as) is "Maula" this is again an absurdity. Hadhrat Jesus (as) was but a feeble human being like the rest of us, who ate, drank, slept, faced illness and was subject to all human weaknesses. And if you believe the Christian concept of Him being a Man-God, they believe that GOD was tempted in all ways as we are...lol

Allah the Most High tells us in the Holy Quran:

Bali Allahu mawlakum wahuwa khayru alnnasireena

3:150 Nay, Allah is your protector, and He is the best of helpers.

Allah is the sole resource, He is the one who Nourishes and distributes His Blessings as He sees fit. He is not subject to being questioned and No one can counter His Will.

On the other hand in the "gospels" we have an admission from Christ (as):

"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven." Mt 10:32

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Mr 13:32

"And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form," Joh 5:37

And lets not forget the words "The Father is Greater then I", An evangelical told me that eventhough Jesus is the Incarnation of the Father who expressed those words to REDUCE his rank and it is not explained rationally but taken upon faith...LOL what a cop out!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You might wanna say that the word messiah means "the annointed one". If thats what it entirely meant & hence what Jesus said, I don't think the High Priests would have sentenced him to crucifixion for Blasphemy.

LOL, what ignorance you protray, let us see what the "gospels" say about the reason for his INDICTMENT:

Luke 23:1-6

1 Then the whole assembly rose and led him off to Pilate. 2 And they began to accuse him, saying, "We have found this man subverting our nation. He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar and claims to be Christ, a king." 3 So Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. 4 Then Pilate announced to the chief priests and the crowd, "I find no basis for a charge against this man." 5 But they insisted, "He stirs up the people all over Judea by his teaching. He started in Galilee and has come all the way here." 6 On hearing this, Pilate asked if the man was a Galilean.

Read Joh 19:12 and Mr 15:26

As can be seen the charges were political and the reason why the Romans placed a sentence on him per the gospels was for political sedition otherwise for them to kill him for blashemy is absurd since Romans didn't get involved with the religion of the people, and a LUDCRIOUS proposition that the gospel uses is that the Sanhendrien didn't have the authority to place one to death, WHILE MY QUESTION IS :

Did you forget about the Adulteress who was to be stoned to death? Was there a great March of Roman soldiers to prevent this "murder" from taking place? Obviously, as can be seen testified in the gospels the JEWS implemented capital punishment per their LAW, history books affirm this as well. So try again...

Edited by Areef Hamdi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recent Posts on ShiaChat!

    • Over the last 40 years, we have seen an increase in income inequality, especially in the US, with wages stagnating for a large majority of the population, but profits for corporations continuing to grow exponentially, this was obviously dealt a blow in the financial crisis, but the mechanisms in place to fix the crisis largely continued to promote neoliberal, state capitalism. The federal reserve, which I believe is criticised unfairly is largely a mechanism in place to fix problems within a very highly flawed system. You need a body that has to regulate banks and interest rates, otherwise you would have a situation that is even worse, where banks would continually just collude and set rates in a way that benefits them. The problem however is that, the Fed's mechanisms only empower the same system that has done damage to so many people's lives. By promoting bank bailouts, which then just give the bank the insurance that they can continue to do whatever they want, and the government will just continue to bail them out, they have no much incentive to act differently. Financial reform and regulation have been implemented since the financial crisis but these aren't enough, and the bailouts only led to bank CEOs giving themselves higher bonuses. But the question is how do you fix the system? If you don't bail the banks out, you leave millions unemployed, you make small business reliant on banks for short-term financing shut down. If you don't print money and you don't increase the deficit, you get rid of the few ways in a flawed economic system to boost the economy. So how do you fix it? More regulation? Do you make the Federal Open Market Committee meetings more public, but then that just allows political influence and gives more power to a very corrupt congress to make decisions, when you can't exactly trust them either? There have been attempts to make other currency systems like bitcoin, but on a national level what is a good solution? To centralise the banks completely would be a good idea but its just giving power to corrupt lawmakers who are bought by corporate interests. 
    • I think an important question that nobodies asked is what kind of relationship do you have with your sister?  If you're not super close and just come out of nowhere with all these rules shes going to rebel and your parents could get involved- telling you to stay out of it. If this happens- she might think its okay because her parents are defending her.  If you're not close, then maybe this is an opportunity to be. Try and be really open and non judgemental and find out why she doesn't wish to observe hijab. It may just be down to ignorance: she simply doesn't know its importance in islam. You'd be surprised what kind of interesting conversations you'd have.  My brothers beliefs are fairly different to mine and fairly often we have interesting discussions/debates about all kinds of topics. He's also very open minded so I feel reassurance/comfort if I ever need to ask advice or information about a certain topic. 
    • Salaam, I have a difficult time finding things related to Sayed Khamenei on the internet-would you by chance be able to provide a link for the mentioned Q&A, in sha Allah? Thanks!
    • It's simple., One sect follows Islam as Allah swt and His Prophet (pbuh) wanted Muslims to follow while the other one is trying to tell Allah swt and the Prophet pbuh what they think should be part of Islam. So if you follow the former then you know you are on Haq and if you are following the latter then you are doomed. Allah swt states in Quran that only He appoints Caliphs. If you look at one sect they abide by it where as the other one have their own man-made Caliphs clearly against the Quran. It's really not that difficult.
×