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Sulaima

Trinity acording to the holy Quran

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Is "Catholic heretics" an interresting subject for this discussion? Would it make a difference if you discovered some "Muslim heretics"? Have heretics not always been around? If they were successful they started a new religion, if not they were forgotten. But I'll let you know if I find something (larger) of interest.

Even thou my knowledge of the Quran is limited, I guess I could find an "error" worth discussing. Which forum shall I publish it in, if I do?

am looking forward to brother ali zaki's reply to you "sulaima" in regards to what you said above.

but i just want to remind sulaima of what we have already discussed.i guess you would clasify the "illitrate 7th century arabia craftsman" as a heretic?didnt you say that the possibility of that happenin is correct.and i in turn said that if the more enlightened christians didnt correct him and watch him in admiration when deitifyin mary,then they are no better than him.

see posts 25 and 26 of this thread.

Edited by mehdi soldier

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you testify of what you worship not what has being preached by someone who is not around today.by that i mean that we believe what our prophet taught.and you can believe what jesus taught.but you arent a witness then to testify.base on your previous post you are exaggerating to prove that because many christians believe in the trinity so jesus believes in it.infact there are unitarian christians!

like bro. zaki said,there are 3 possibilities and to those i would like to add another one.that is the definitons of a deity,worship and veneration.in islam there are certain acts which can only be done for God and no one else deserve that.and as muslims we judge by islamic standards because they are superior to yours.if you dont accept ,open a new thread lets compare the christian and muslim ideas and concepts of worship and deity .then we can see whether from judgement,we cant conclude that there are christians who implicity (atleast) deitify mary (as) .

base on the "christian creed" you presented,i would like you to understand that this is one that you may agree with the catholics.and besides there are other things which you disagree with them.a catholic has told e that orthodox have no respect for mary by catholic standard and a protestant has declared catholics idol worshippers.so ther are lots of differences between the christian denominations.and you havent spoken about the schism athanasius ,the father of the "trinity",brought when he formalized the "trinity" concept.what about the arians,do they believe in "trinity"?no.yet they are christians.

The new testament never uses the word trinity. The word trinity is a post-newtestamental invention, a short for the Biblical concept "Father-Son-Holy Ghoast". The interpretation of this concept is what is interresting, not if we use the word trinity, or say Father-Son-Ghoast instead. Between Orthodox and Catholics the interpretation is almost similar (2 words was enough to cause a crisis between the churches!) Arians and Unitarians have a more different interpretation, they dont accept the creed from 325, but they certainly do not worship Mary as a God.

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am looking forward to brother ali zaki's reply to you "sulaima" in regards to what you said above.

but i just want to remind sulaima of what we have already discussed.i guess you would clasify the "illitrate 7th century arabia craftsman" as a heretic?didnt you say that the possibility of that happenin is correct.and i in turn said that if the more enlightened christians didnt correct him and watch him in admiration when deitifyin mary,then they are no better than him.

see posts 25 and 26 of this thread.

If you think a person that worships MUHAMMAD as a God is a Muslim , I will reconsider my language and call a person that worships MARY as a God, a Christian. But only when I speak to you.

Christians, just like Muslims 600 years later, did what they could to spread the gospel of their religion.

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Guest SayedM'sSister

(bismillah)

(salam)

who exactly were u referring to as worshipping mohamed saw as a god? nobody believes those people are muslims, nor are the people who worshiped their prophet (such as worshiping jesus, christian) nor were the people that worshiped the calf the followers of musa a.s.

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Even thou my knowledge of the Quran is limited, I guess I could find an "error" worth discussing. Which forum shall I publish it in, if I do?

(salam) and Peace,

Whichever forum would be most appropriate...this one if you like. We are anxious to discuss any "error" you have discovered.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

who exactly were u referring to as worshipping mohamed saw as a god? nobody believes those people are muslims, nor are the people who worshiped their prophet (such as worshiping jesus, christian) nor were the people that worshiped the calf the followers of musa a.s.

I was speaking in hypothetical terms. Sorry.

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(salam) and Peace,

Whichever forum would be most appropriate...this one if you like. We are anxious to discuss any "error" you have discovered.

I cant say I discovered this myself, but looking through a list, I thought this might be a subject for a girl with limited knowledge of the Quran. I think I know enough about maths, so if there are not other verses with info I am not aware of, I may have a chance to give you an interesting “fight”.

Sura 4:11-12 state the Quranic inheritance law. When a man dies, and is leaving behind three daughters, his two parents and his wife, they will receive the respective shares of 2/3 for the 3 daughters together, 1/3 for the parents together [both according to verse 4:11] and 1/8 for the wife [4:12] which adds up to more than the available estate.

Have you got an explanation to why this is not an error?

(who are "we" that are anxious)

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The new testament never uses the word trinity. The word trinity is a post-newtestamental invention, a short for the Biblical concept "Father-Son-Holy Ghoast". The interpretation of this concept is what is interresting, not if we use the word trinity, or say Father-Son-Ghoast instead. Between Orthodox and Catholics the interpretation is almost similar (2 words was enough to cause a crisis between the churches!) Arians and Unitarians have a more different interpretation, they dont accept the creed from 325, but they certainly do not worship Mary as a God.

thanks for that!you said its a "post newtestamenatal invention".so i just want to say that it was a way in which those who wanted to give jesus a divine image tried that way by interpretation.for the fact that different being that are related in one way or the other exist in a book. doesnt mean that the "trinity invention" was right.and besides i can give verses that contradict the "new invention" directly.while the verses which you use to support this "new invention" are prone to interpretations.

If you think a person that worships MUHAMMAD as a God is a Muslim , I will reconsider my language and call a person that worships MARY as a God, a Christian. But only when I speak to you.

Christians, just like Muslims 600 years later, did what they could to spread the gospel of their religion.

like sayyid m'sister rightly said,to us muslims we dont consider you to be a true follower of jesus (as) if you worship him.so no diffrence to us between those who worship jesus,mary or muhammad (as) .

and i would like to point out thatwhen a dispute between two group of the same religion arose like that of shia/sunni and athanasians.arians ,these two are perfectly within the same religion.only that one is wrong in interpretation.

and concerning those worshippin mary in relation to the title of "christian",like i said if they are not corrected by the more "enlightened" christians then they are all the same.besides the quran doesnt see those that worship mary as "christians" or followers of jesus.it condemns them as it those condemn those that worship jesus or those who believe in "three in one".so its a matter of who follows what is deemed right in the muslim standard and has nothing to do with definitions or titles or who is a jesus follower or whos not.its a partucular subject matter and has nothing to do wholesomelly.

Edited by mehdi soldier

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Allah in sura 5:116 asks: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?” If this question isn’t totally superfluous and meaningless, a rumour was around that this was what Jesus had told men. Jesus, nor the New Testament, never uses the word “trinity”, but if it isn’t what we now call Trinity the Quran in this verse is talking about, then what is it?

May be referring to the Nestorian controversy (Talking point of Council of Ephesus, 3rd Ecumenical council of Christianity, 431 CE), which makes some sense given that the splinter church, the Nestorian, had great influence in the East, Syria and its environs.

Essentially there was a dispute amongst Christians about how the balance of Divine-human worked out in Jesus. Nestorius, the patriarch of Constantinople at the time (until after the council) was judged by other Christian scholars to put too much emphasis on the human, and not enough on the divine. In particular, he opposed language widely used by the Catholic church for Mary, in particular, theotokos, or "Mother of God." He thought it was inannproporiate, an exaggeration that gave the wrong idea. So the verse is perhaps getting at this. Or perhaps it's a criticism of overveneration of Jesus and Mary. Hard to say.

More on Nestorius:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorius

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I certainly believe that 5:116 is talking about Catholics who are seeing Mary as the partner of God. If one studies how people pray towards her, one will think that they are e worshipping her and taking her as Partners. 

And don't get confused with tawasul. We don't make the claim that the Imams are kings of Creation. 

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On Sunday, March 05, 2017 at 10:18 AM, MohammadAli1993 said:

I certainly believe that 5:116 is talking about Catholics who are seeing Mary as the partner of God. If one studies how people pray towards her, one will think that they are e worshipping her and taking her as Partners. 

I agree. It is very easy for non Catholics to misinterpret Catholic habits.

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On 3/6/2017 at 3:52 PM, andres said:

I agree. It is very easy for non Catholics to misinterpret Catholic habits.

Misrepresentation keeps the wheels grinding. It's the monkey wrench that keeps everyone from getting along. Speaking of three entities at once constitutes their unity of belief, not biological matter, or absence of...

It is very much like Dua -e- tawasul,  The list of religions encouraging this is long and borderlines shirk from beginning to end and the difference is only known in the heart of each worshiper, and by God, not us.

It seems one God is not enough for anyone. Everyone seems to need a mediator. The idea of someone more holy, more pious, speaking on our behalf is comforting enough that it's been incorporated into all religions since Moses.

Is it real? Does it exist? If it is real for one it is real for all. If you can ask intersession form Abul-Qasim why you can not ask Mary? There seems to be more similarities in religions than outwardly show. 

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36 minutes ago, Son of Placid said:

Misrepresentation keeps the wheels grinding. It's the monkey wrench that keeps everyone from getting along. Speaking of three entities at once constitutes their unity of belief, not biological matter, or absence of...

It is very much like Dua -e- tawasul,  The list of religions encouraging this is long and borderlines shirk from beginning to end and the difference is only known in the heart of each worshiper, and by God, not us.

It seems one God is not enough for anyone. Everyone seems to need a mediator. The idea of someone more holy, more pious, speaking on our behalf is comforting enough that it's been incorporated into all religions since Moses.

Is it real? Does it exist? If it is real for one it is real for all. If you can ask intersession form Abul-Qasim why you can not ask Mary? There seems to be more similarities in religions than outwardly show. 

Religions clearly influence each other. 

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